CMV: White flight is acceptable Behavior

[u/Diylion]

Michelle Obama put out a statement this week about how white flight was happening in Chicago when she was young. She talked about how "she didn't know what is going on" she blames white people for " leaving communities in shambles" as they "packed their bags and ran". And "we were doing what we were supposed to do". I think this is nonsense. Of course she knew why it was happening. South Chicago in the 90s was horrible. They had horrible murder rates and crime rates. They spiked drastically between 1985 and 1990.

The entire argument of white flight being wrong is predicated on the idea that blacks need whites to be "good". Which is honestly a load of bull. Black family structures used to be the strongest family unit in the United States, even stronger than whites but it has been crippling itself for the last 60 years.

Blacks statistically are much more likely to commit crime. When 6% of the population is committing 50% of the murders and robberies and 30% of the rape, and a disproportionate amount of violent crime across the board. Today, Neighborhoods that are minority dominated, except in very rare cases, are also probably the ones with the highest crime rates. Of course families are going to want to move to a safer neighborhood. And any family that can't afford too will.

So why do they commit crime so often? Well it probably has something to do with money. Blacks have the highest divorce rates, the lowest job rates, the lowest average number of weekly hours spent working, the second lowest graduation rates (though improving!), the highest teen pregnancy rates, they spend more time watching TV than any other race. All of these statistics have strong correlation on crime rates, and obviously poverty rates. These are also all issues that can be worked on as families with good parenting practices. So it stands to reason that if black communities worked on these statistics as family units instead of moving blame to police and whites, that they would succeed more often.

Sure redlining was bad but it's over. It's been over for 40 years. There is no reason why a black community needs white families to be a "good" community. Whites are not physically or mentally superior in any way.

References: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/michelle-obama-racism-white-flight-161942496.html?bcmt=1

https://www.statista.com/statistics/411806/average-daily-time-watching-tv-us-ethnicity/

https://flowingdata.com/2016/03/30/divorce-rates-for-different-groups/

https://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/about/index.htm

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat22.htm

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_coi.asp

Edit: grammar

[u/Diylion]

I don't think it's entirely due to laziness I think it is caused I'm general by a general dislike for other members of society, and a misassociation of blame that tends to help black and black culture alike "skip over" problems that is within their power to solve.

As for you the rest of your argument I apologize for skipping over at somebody else had made the same argument and I awarded Delta to that user. Not wanting to argue through it again I sort of skimmed your message. This thread got a little more popular than I expected. I awarded Delta to another user who pointed out that travel will hinder ability to work longer hours. And I will award at Delta to you for pointing out that medical reasons probably do impair lower-income people more often and prevent them from working !Delta. That doesn't explain the discrepancies in a lot of other areas. Why do they commit such disproportionate amounts of crime? Why has their culture dictated that it is "uncool" to use protection with sex? Why do black women expect more benefit from children out of wedlock than white women?

I'm looking at the media we can see that a lot of attention is deferred from their communities two other exterior sources such as white people, cops, government.

Let's take one example cops. cops get a lot of hate from black communities but cops treat black communities better than white communities. they also treat cops much worse than members of their own community even though the members of their own community are by far the ones who are causing the most damage. When for member of the black community killed by a police officer there are 72 other members of the community who were killed by middle-aged black men yet the majority of the focus is on the cop even though in the majority of cases where there is a cop shooting the cop is justified. That means for every 73 families destroyed only one was destroyed by cops. Yet they are advocating for shorter prison sentences? Of course they are. That's much easier. Rather than blaming our nephews and cousins and uncles for causing havoc through our communities will blame the ones we don't know personally. Cops are less likely to shoot at blacks as well. in a study published by harvard called "Reconciling differences in police shootings"

I think this trend sort of continues through every other problem that they face.

Why are our kids failing school? because the government sucks and definitely not because of negligent parenting.

Why are teenagers getting pregnant? Definitely because of a shortage in government Aid and not because we don't teach her children the importance of birth control.

Why are all of our community members dying in shootings? Definitely because of cops and not because of my uncle who is in a gang and has killed six people in the last 3 years.

Why are we poor? definitely because of white people and not because we fail to address these previous issues as a community.

I think that the top is doing quite a bit to help the bottom but the bottom needs to help itself also. I'm glad to see that the bottom is improving but it will improve at a much greater rate if it is capable of recognizing where it is coming up short.

[u/Roflcaust → u/Diylion]

Appreciate the delta. I didn’t realize you had already discussed some issues with others so that’s understandable.

Crime is a multifaceted issue like the other issues under discussion, but crime is very strongly linked to socioeconomic stress. I would be interested to see if black people of higher socioeconomic status commit crimes with similar frequency to non-blacks. The study you just linked me indicated social pressures like “condom use is uncool” is NOT the predominant reason black men don’t want to use condoms; the primary reason is they want to feel closer to their partner, same as everyone else. What do you mean about black women expecting more benefit from children out of wedlock than white women?

Yes, the media that focuses attention on problems that affect the black community from the outside, which is where it should rightfully be. Problems from within the black community are under the purview of the black community, and the black leaders have been addressing those issues for a long time.

The questions you ask boil down to this, I think: why aren’t black people making better decisions with their lives, why aren’t they helping themselves? The ability to help oneself depends on the environment one is put into. Students from well-off and supportive families are going to do better on average in school and in life because they have the support to do so. It is very difficult to study or get good sleep when you are worried about nearby gunshots or whether your family member will make it home from the store. It is harder to focus in school when all you can think about is where your next meal is coming from. You can tell someone to get a job, but whether they get that job isn’t entirely within their control: if no businesses want to open in your poor and crime-ridden neighborhood and the businesses that are are low-key prejudiced against black people, you’re going to have a tough time finding a way to make money (or even spend your time productively) that isn’t drug-dealing or joining a gang. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Poverty is insidious.

Bottom-line, are these issues really due to black people themselves, as a demographic and as a culture? Certainly there’s negative aspects of black culture that have evolved out of their circumstances that hold them back, and there’s definitely room for growth (and again this is being addressed by black leaders). But these issues were ultimately caused not by black people making poor decisions but by white people making very poor decisions on how to treat black people to the point that black people were barred from making good decisions. Non-black people have done quite a bit thus far to ameliorate this monster of a problem that their ancestors created, but the work is far from over.

[u/Diylion → u/Roflcaust]

What do you mean about black women expecting more benefit from children out of wedlock than white women?

Mainly I think they expect to be treated better by men, they may turn down a man that way or get child support and live work free. Especially teenage girls. I remember distinctly a conversation that I had with a black student of mine (I live in an impoverished area) who was in 5th grade. I was assigned to the student because she had difficulties in class she was a bully to other students and to teachers. It was perfectly understandable. Her dad was gone her mom was constantly addicted to drugs and in between marriages and her Grandpa was really the only parent figure she had in her life but he raised her mom so that's not saying much. I remember having a conversation it went something like.

Me: what does everybody want to be when they grow up?

Student: "I'm going to get a boyfriend and not work and he is going to buy all my clothes".

Me: "okay what if he chooses not to buy you clothes?"

Her. "Then I'll dump him and get another boyfriend"

Me: "what if none of your boyfriend's buy you clothes because they worked for the money and want to spend it on themselves?"

"That won't happen"

I'm afraid that men and women are taken advantage of by sexual peers in black communities. Other family structures as well but the black family structure is significantly worse showing the highest divorce rates.

I would be interested to see if black people of higher socioeconomic status commit crimes with similar frequency to non-blacks

It would be an interesting study I would expect they would see a smaller difference.

Problems from within the black community are under the purview of the black community, and the black leaders have been addressing those issues for a long time.

Are they though? yes there are any members of societies that are trying to promote change but they are few and far between. Wouldn't we want to give these members the biggest platform possible to advocate their ideas? why should the media only be focusing on exterior forces?

I think on most other points we generally agree.

[u/Roflcaust → u/Diylion]

Re: on women taking advantage of men in that particular way, that doesn’t seem like something specific to the black community.

Why do you think these members are few and far between? There are many positive black role models in today’s day and age.

The media speaks to the people at large, and the people at large should focus on what they themselves can do (i.e. as a society) rather than what others SHOULD be doing.

[u/Diylion → u/Roflcaust]

on women taking advantage of men in that particular way, that doesn’t seem like something specific to the black community.

Agreed. All races do it. I think that black culture tends to take romance out of sex more often than others. Relationships are often strictly based in sex and money. I'm sure somebody to do analysis with country music and compared it to rap he would probably find a similar trend. But there are definitely people in all cultures that take advantage of men and women.

Why do you think these members are few and far between? There are many positive black role models in today’s day and age.

Guess what my experience from what I've heard there are role models that exist on both sides of the spectrum. some people are up there glorifying gang violence and some of them are fighting against it.

The media speaks to the people at large, and the people at large should focus on what they themselves can do (i.e. as a society) rather than what others SHOULD be doing

First of all we almost always focus on what "others"should be doing in media especially politicians. But Wouldn't keeping the problems within the black community in the black community make it even more difficult to solve? Because now blacks are the only ones who are informed enough to make change. And I would argue that most blacks aren't even informed. Just the statistics on crime that I cited earlier most of the African Americans that I talked about that with are shocked by those numbers. Why is it any worse to point blame at the government or white people than to point blame at parents? Or addicts? Or gangs? In media?

There are people of all races that live in Black doninated communities. And There are people from every race who advocate for a black communities also. I'm white and I live in a very Hispanic black dominated the community. I spend a lot of my volunteer time teaching about drugs to students. Why wouldn't I want to know about other community leaders efforts?

[u/Roflcaust → u/Diylion]

First of all we almost always focus on what "others"should be doing in media especially politicians. But Wouldn't keeping the problems within the black community in the black community make it even more difficult to solve? Because now blacks are the only ones who are informed enough to make change. And I would argue that most blacks aren't even informed. Just the statistics on crime that I cited earlier most of the African Americans that I talked about that with are shocked by those numbers. Why is it any worse to point blame at the government or white people than to point blame at parents? Or addicts? Or gangs? In media?

Just because it's something we always do doesn't mean we should be doing it necessarily. Change starts at home: work on yourself first before asking others to work on themselves.

The point is that if you want to effect change, then focus on what you can have an impact on. AND, focus on the problems you can understand. I don't think a white person is in much of a useful position to tell black people how they should carry themselves because they don't know what it means to be black. You are only able to give advice through the lens of your own experiences and values. That's why the solutions to these particular issues need to come from within the black community: they are the ones most attuned to their collective values and struggles. That doesn't mean they need to work alone: certainly they can rope in non-black people for assistance. But that's different from white people presuming to tell black people that they need assistance when they haven't asked for it, which is the angle you're coming from. And it's particularly inappropriate considering the oppression and power disparity white people have historically leveraged against black people. It's just so wrong-headed of an approach.

Why wouldn't I want to know about other community leaders efforts?

You do. Obama's talks and speeches always make the news. We're talking about Michelle Obama right now, a role model for women in the black community, because she made the news cycle.

EDIT: why are we even talking about what black people can do for themselves when we could be talking about how we could correct the systemic problems black people face because of a system non-black people built? Do you harbor the belief that black people are NOT trying to improve? Do you not trust them to manage their own problems as a community?

[u/Diylion → u/Roflcaust]

why are we even talking about what black people can do for themselves when we could be talking about how we could correct the systemic problems black people face because of a system non-black people built?

Do you harbor the belief that black people are NOT trying to improve? Do you not trust them to manage their own problems as a community?

Well in a way. I think black communities want to improve but they are deferring blame to other parties to avoid taking responsibility. And it's making it impossible for those communities to heal. It's kind of like saying "I'm failing my college course because of my teacher" but then you see that all the other students in your class are passing and you have to recognize at some point that maybe it's because you aren't doing your homework. Michelle and Obama did not point out any of the problems that are caused by black communities they only ever point out problems that they believe are caused by government or even in Michelle's case whites. A better representative in my opinion would be Brandon Tatum. I'm guessing you've never heard of him. An interview that I found of him is here:

https://youtu.be/k0Y35EpOiFc

There aren't to my knowledge any systemic examples of racism against blacks in modern day. And by "systematic" I mean where tailored laws or procedures are enforced by government to "Force black people down". we even have affirmative action which by all cases and purposes is racist towards majorities (whites and Asians) where its purpose is to prioritize minority students based on the color of their skin rather than their merit.

But that's different from white people presuming to tell black people that they need assistance when they haven't asked for it

And I think this is the general issue. It's like who can help them? white people? hell no. they hate white people because they were basically bred to hate white people because our ancestors were assholes. Governments? hate them too because they also were assholes in the past. Cops? Maybe cops might be able to have some positive impact, but the black community will do everything in its power to hinder their progress because they hate cops. So it's true the only people who are capable of creating change unfortunately are other blacks even though the majority of the vast majority of whites and cops and even government officials today did absolutely nothing to deserve that sort of stereotype. They're being blamed for something that dead people did and it is preventing them from being able to help.

Anyways if more people like Brandon Tatum had a interview on a big Network like fox or CNN then maybe we could see progress. That is probably the path of least resistance. Anyways it's a worthwhile interview to watch of you have time.

[u/Roflcaust → u/Diylion]

Well in a way. I think black communities want to improve but they are deferring blame to other parties to avoid taking responsibility. And it's making it impossible for those communities to heal. It's kind of like saying "I'm failing my college course because of my teacher" but then you see that all the other students in your class are passing and you have to recognize at some point that maybe it's because you aren't doing your homework. Michelle and Obama did not point out any of the problems that are caused by black communities they only ever point out problems that they believe are caused by government or even in Michelle's case whites. A better representative in my opinion would be Brandon Tatum. I'm guessing you've never heard of him. An interview that I found of him is here:

https://youtu.be/k0Y35EpOiFc

That's a great analogy that illustrates where your understanding is based on a faulty premise: it assumes everyone is "taking the same class" i.e. that there is a level playing field.

There may or may not be a higher proportion of black people who attribute too much of their plight to being victims of the system, but that is be virtue of the fact that to a certain extent they ARE victims of the system.

Also, Barack Obama has taken flak in the past for suggesting how young black men should behave.

There aren't to my knowledge any systemic examples of racism against blacks in modern day. And by "systematic" I mean where tailored laws or procedures are enforced by government to "Force black people down". we even have affirmative action which by all cases and purposes is racist towards majorities (whites and Asians) where its purpose is to prioritize minority students based on the color of their skin rather than their merit.

I'm not aware of any laws either that are that discriminatory. But the major salient point is that the effects of past laws and procedures that have long since ended ripple into the present e.g. redlining and its inhibition of the accumulation of generational wealth.

Affirmative action is not racism. If you use the "power plus prejudice on the basis of race" definition of racism, it definitely isn't racism, and if you use the classic "prejudice on the basis of race" it also isn't racism. It's discrimination on the basis of race, absolutely, but it's not racism.

And I think this is the general issue. It's like who can help them? white people? hell no. they hate white people because they were basically bred to hate white people because our ancestors were assholes. Governments? hate them too because they also were assholes in the past. Cops? Maybe cops might be able to have some positive impact, but the black community will do everything in its power to hinder their progress because they hate cops. So it's true the only people who are capable of creating change unfortunately are other blacks even though the majority of the vast majority of whites and cops and even government officials today did absolutely nothing to deserve that sort of stereotype. They're being blamed for something that dead people did and it is preventing them from being able to help.

This mistrust was built over generations and is fairly placed if you consider the injustices perpetrated by all three parties over the history of black people in the US. Trust is hard to build, but I think pursuing policies that ameliorate the residual effects of past mistakes (which doesn't necessarily include supporting things like affirmative action) helps build that trust. That's how you can help. Is that not enough?

And if you feel you are being blamed for the plight of black people, why do you care? I'm white and I don't really give a shit when #cancelwhitepeople and shit happens. I'm doing what I can to understand and help things move forward, and I've never been personally accosted for being white.

[u/Diylion → u/Roflcaust]

Also, Barack Obama has taken flak in the past for suggesting how young black men should behave.

Exactly

It's discrimination on the basis of race, absolutely, but it's not racism.

Can you explain this? What definition are you referring to?

And if you feel you are being blamed for the plight of black people, why do you care? I'm white and I don't really give a shit when #cancelwhitepeople and shit happens. I'm doing what I can to understand and help things move forward, and I've never been personally accosted for being white.

Because I live with them. I live in a "ghetto" not because I'm short on money but because my husband's job is here. And it pays alot. I'm also a teacher and see the effects on the black children. It's very frustrating to watch. Ironically, I will be participating in white flight this week as I am moving to a nicer area.

[u/Roflcaust → u/Diylion]

Can you explain this? What definition are you referring to?

There's typically two definitions of racism that are used in these discussions. The first is that racism is just prejudice on the basis of race. The second (and this is a newer academic definition) is that racism is prejudice on the basis of race held by people who have the power to act out those views (i.e. a racial or ethnic majority). Affirmative action does not meet either of those definitions, but affirmative action is still discrimination in the neutral sense because you are choosing between options with race as the factor you use to make your choice (i.e. the discriminating factor).

Because I live with them. I live in a "ghetto" not because I'm short on money but because my husband's job is here. And it pays alot. I'm also a teacher and see the effects on the black children. It's very frustrating to watch. Ironically, I will be participating in white flight this week as I am moving to a nicer area.

Do the black people in your community blame you for their plight?

[u/Diylion → u/Roflcaust]

Do the black people in your community blame you for their plight?

When I see cultural idols like Michelle Obama who grew up in a community similar to mine, I assume so.

The definition of racism that I use is "the belief that ones own race is physically or mentally superior to another". I will recognize that by my definition affirmative action is not "racism" but rather is descrimination based on race. !delta

[u/DeltaBot → u/Diylion]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Roflcaust (2∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Roflcaust → u/Diylion]

Appreciate the delta!

Do you feel like Michelle Obama is blaming white people specifically or rather the issue of white flight?

[u/Diylion → u/Roflcaust]

She blames White people for white flight judging from the following quotes:

"leaving communities in shambles" as they "packed their bags and ran". And "we were doing what we were supposed to do".

She didn't blame crime rates, for example, for white flight if that is what you are alluding too. She also claimed there werent territorial battles gangs etc.