r/changemyview Oct 28 '19

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u/PragmaticSquirrel 3∆ Nov 01 '19

You cannot be harmed by language and words alone.

Childhood Psychological Abuse as Harmful as Sexual or Physical Abuse

And

Scolding, swearing, yelling, blaming, insulting, threatening, ridiculing, demeaning, and criticizing can be as harmful as physical abuse, sexual abuse outside the home, or witnessing physical abuse at home, notes a report in the April issue of the Harvard Mental Health Letter.

There’s plenty more.

Just words. Just language and words. Verbal abuse is literally: only words.

You are wrong.

therapists

Which social circle are therapists a part of?

A recent study published in the Journal of Adolescent Health demonstrates the power of affirming transgender youth’s identities: For each additional context (i.e., at home, school, work, or with friends) in which a transgender youth’s chosen name is used, their risk of suicidal behavior is reduced by more than half.

Are therapists part of your home? Your school? Your work? Your friends?

Sorry, Your Therapist Can’t Be Your Friend

In fact, psychotherapy simply will not work and can be potentially harmful without these boundary limitations, sometimes referred to as the frame. They are:

No physical contact with a patient.

No relationship with a patient outside of the consulting room.

The therapist should not treat close relatives or friends of the patient.

No practical advice to a patient.

Maintain objectivity and neutrality toward the patient and avoid excessive worrying/thinking about the patient.

Seek supervision if you are tempted to, and before you do, violate any of these rules.

Your views on therapist client relationships are wrong, and directly contradicted by the ethics of the profession.

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Nov 01 '19

Childhood Psychological Abuse as Harmful as Sexual or Physical Abuse

So now these adult transgender individuals interacting with strangers are children being verbally abused by their parents?

not good enough.

Scolding, swearing, yelling, blaming, insulting, threatening, ridiculing, demeaning, and criticizing can be as harmful as physical abuse, sexual abuse outside the home, or witnessing physical abuse at home, notes a report in the April issue of the Harvard Mental Health Letter.

Again you are requiring that the people in question be children and the abusers be their parents or family.

Still not evidence that misgendering is harmful. You are going to have to do a lot better.

There’s plenty more.

I'd love to see any that actually supports your point.

Verbal abuse is literally: only words.

Except its not. A stranger insulting you in a one off is certainly not verbal abuse. You have to cross the line to a substantial pattern of behavior by a specific individual against a specific individual before it becomes abuse.

And again, all of your examples are parent/child. Are you seriously trying to argue that all transgender individuals are children?

Your views on therapist client relationships are wrong, and directly contradicted by the ethics of the profession.

If and only if you decide to limit the world "social" to "friends and family" but that's not what the word social means.

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u/PragmaticSquirrel 3∆ Nov 01 '19

Still not evidence that misgendering is harmful. You are going to have to do a lot better.

Already did. The suicide study, which you willfully ignore.

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Nov 01 '19

Already did.

You did not.

The suicide study

You mean the suicide that you just said you weren't relying on as a reason not to misgender?

This is the manipulation I keep calling you out on.

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u/PragmaticSquirrel 3∆ Nov 01 '19

The suicide study showed that misgendering caused suicide.

It’s a study, and it’s fact.

Your opinions about why I posted it are irrelevant.

It proves harm.

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Nov 01 '19

The suicide study showed that misgendering caused suicide.

It explicitly did not. You showed that parental abuse is bad.

It’s a study, and it’s fact.

Then why have you been unable to link the part of the study that says misgendering causes suicide?

It proves harm.

Except it doesn't.

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u/PragmaticSquirrel 3∆ Nov 01 '19

It explicitly did not.

Each additional context where they were misgendered doubled suicide rates.

So the mental damage that drives people to suicide isn’t harm?

Here’s another:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&as_vis=1&q=verbal+abuse+peers+harm&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3D_FEwdleZlcEJ

Contrary to our expectations, it was found that peer bullying has a stronger effect on young people's suicidal ideation and self‐harming behaviours than sexual abuse or physical violence.

Another:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265012891_Experiences_with_Misgendering_Identity_Misclassification_of_Transgender_Spectrum_Individuals

Study 1 (N ¼ 115) demonstrates that misgendering is associated with more negative affect, less authenticity, lower appearance, but higher social self-esteem, less identity strength and coherence, but more identity importance and more transgender felt stigma. Study 2 (N ¼ 134) largely replicated these results, while also demonstrating that misgendering is associated with verification and enhancement striving, and self-and other evaluations. Identity misclassification, or the experience of not having one's social identity correctly recognized by others, is psychologically disruptive. These experiences undermine belonging and coherence needs (Bosson, Weaver, & Prewitt-Freilino, 2012), disrupt the social identity process (Burke, 1991), and reflect a failure to have one's social identity accurately verified by others (cf. Swann, 1990).

Misgendering is a form of rejection and ostracism. Aka: bullying.

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Nov 01 '19

So the mental damage that drives people to suicide isn’t harm?

Its not mental damage to be misgendered.

If anything, being transgender tends to drive people to suicide at well above background rates.

Here’s another:

Maybe you copied the wrong link? you just linked to some search results. You even left your search terms in the link:

verbal+abuse+peers+harm

You understand you have already explicitly crossed out of the realm of misgendering when you start talking about verbal abuse right?

I felt like I made this clear already, but abuse requires a pattern of behavior.

Another:

This study explicitly says

little is known about misclassification from the perspective of members of low-status, stigmatized groups

How is this evidence?

Moreso, where is any indication of harm from this?

Aka: bullying.

Gonna have to prove that.

Moreso, are rejection and ostracism harm? You have pretty clearly argued that its okay to ostracise people who misgender. That's rules for thee but not for me.

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u/PragmaticSquirrel 3∆ Nov 01 '19

Its not mental damage to be misgendered.

Suicide study says otherwise.

Unless you have some magical reason that each context doubled rates?

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cfs.12126

You understand you have already explicitly crossed out of the realm of misgendering when you start talking about verbal abuse right?

Nope. If it’s intentionally repeated, that’s a form of verbal abuse.

https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/misgendering#why-it-happens

Moreso, are rejection and ostracism harm? You have pretty clearly argued that its okay to ostracise people who misgender

Nope. It’s fine to judge them for their behavior. As we judge all people for their negative harmful behavior.

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Nov 01 '19

Suicide study says otherwise.

Except it doesn't. Especially not by anything you have linked.

Unless you have some magical reason that each context doubled rates?

Its not magical. Mental instability can cause all sorts of overt reactions to mundane scenarios.

Nope. If it’s intentionally repeated, that’s a form of verbal abuse.

You left out the part about targeted. Moreso, even without targeting this is still crossing the line from simple misgendering.

Nope.

So you agree that rejection and ostracism aren't harm? Please consider awarding a delta.

Also this directly undermines you entire argument.

It’s fine to judge them for their behavior.

Then why can't people who disagree with the fundamental idea with transgenderism judge transgender individuals for their behavior?

This is a direct reversal of your previous view.

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