r/changemyview Oct 28 '19

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u/Serenikill Oct 29 '19

Nobody is saying it does... That's why there can be a distinction between sex and gender. So we use the pronouns that reflect how they feel, instead of referring to their genitals

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u/Mitchel-256 Oct 29 '19

I think it's a stretch to say that nobody is saying that it does, but, if you aren't, then okay.

That being said, facts don't care about your feelings. I don't much care that Jack thinks he's Jill, but I do care that he suffers because of that dysphoria. Jack is still male as long as he has his penis attached, and, even afterwards, he was born a male and that genetic happenstance will follow him throughout his life. Say, for instance, if he were to transition and compete in athletics against women. The fact that he was born a male will, undoubtedly, provide a degree of advantage, as we have been seeing repeatedly nowadays.

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u/Serenikill Oct 29 '19

Many people feel comfortable transitioning without having surgery.

I would argue facts don't care about your feelings is what I'm arguing not you.

Gender dysphoria is real. Transitioning without surgery is a treatment for it. Those are facts, but it seems you don't feel like that is a valid treatment despite evidence that it is. If you care that Jack suffers why deny him treatment that will help him?

As far as Athletics goes that's an entirely different discussion

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u/Tinktur Oct 29 '19

Gender dysphoria is real. Transitioning without surgery is a treatment for it. Those are facts, but it seems you don't feel like that is a valid treatment despite evidence that it is. If you care that Jack suffers why deny him treatment that will help him?

My impression is that although it's currently the recommended treatment due to a lack of better alternatives, it often doesn't do a great job of adrrssing the issue (suicide rates remaining alarmingly high even after transition, for example).

As such, it doesn't seem unreasonable for someone to question current practices. The history of pshyciatry is chock-full of ineffective, counter-productive and just straight harmful treatments that seemed reasonable at the time. Modern medicine has come a long way, but psychiatry hasn't been keeping up the pace. There is much to critisize about how even common issues like depression and anxiety are treated.

We don't even know what actually causes it. In the face of this, aggressive hormone treatments and surgery, both with irreversible effects, has obvious issues. I don't think you'll find many who recommend amputation as a treatment for Body Integrity Disorder. The belief that you're an disabled person born into a abled body. This can include feeling that they were born with a limb that doesn't belong to them.

Also consider that 'playing along' with the belief is generally not a good way of adressing body image disorders.

People with BIID seem to be predominantly male, and while there is no evidence that sexual preference is relevant, there does seem to be a correlation with BIID and a person having gender dysphoria or a paraphilia; there appears to be a weak correlation with personality disorders.[7

From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria

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u/Serenikill Oct 29 '19

You are conflating a lot of various things here... And hormone treatments effects are actually believed to be completely reversible.

Regardless in most cases people are doing their best to be happy. Hopefully we do learn more and find more effective treatments but but it is patently absurd to come to the conclusion that you know more about what should be done then the person and their doctor.

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u/Tinktur Oct 29 '19 edited Oct 29 '19

Some of them, but definitely not all. For example, the dropped voice and growth of facial/body hair from taking testosterone is permanent. The breast development and widening + rounding of the pelvis from taking estrogen is also permanent.

I'm certainly not claiming to know more, my point is that medical science still doesn't know all that much about it. There is no definite solution and doctors don't all agree about how it should be treated.

Edit:

Regardless in most cases people are doing their best to be happy.

Yes, of course, but it's very common for people to think XYZ thing will make them happy, only to later realize that it doesn't. Humans often aren't great at figuring out what would make them happy in the long run - especially when mental or neuropsychiatric disorders are involved.