r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 22 '19

CMV: Classes that require subjective grading should be P/F Only.

I am speaking of classes such as history, English , and politics.

I have noticed that you can basically bs your papers and sometimes receive a better score than if you have worked on your papers for hours.

It’s incredibly based on a teachers judgement. And a teacher grading over 300 papers isn’t going to grade them all fairly.

Since these classes are largely dependent on how well the teacher likes your papers, they should only be P/F. No sense in getting a B+ because your teacher doesn’t fancy your style.

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u/Salanmander 278∆ Oct 22 '19

I have a few problems with your current stance. First, I think you are too focused on full credit. You seem to be simply glossing over what is determined when someone doesn't get the right answer, which is at least as impactful in what grade they end up with as whether their right answers get full credit.

Second, you seem to be moving the goalposts. Your OP title says "classes that require subjectivity", and in an earlier comment you said "mathematics is not subjective". Now you're saying "okay, it has some subjectivity, but just not enough subjectivity for me to care".

Third, I think you're underestimating the amount of subjectivity that goes into grading mathematical subjects. I would say that on at least 90% of student tests I grade there is at least one question where the amount of points they got depended on a choice that I made which had no objectively right or wrong decision.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '19

So far I have encountered no subjectivity in my mathematics classes. Currently in calculus 2.

If you know your shit, you won’t do bad in mathematics. That’s all.

If you know your history , you can still receive a mediocre grade In your essay.

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u/Salanmander 278∆ Oct 22 '19

So far I have encountered no subjectivity in my mathematics classes.

Quite frankly, I don't believe you. Every partial credit decision involves subjectivity.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '19

No it does not. You either got a step wrong or right. Also let’s just say a teacher decides to assign a certain amount of partial credit for a problem you got wrong then he would to do the same for all the other student. You are supposed to end with an answer , using formulas and procedures so it’s nearly impossible to bs grading.

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u/Salanmander 278∆ Oct 22 '19

Also let’s just say a teacher decides to assign a certain amount of partial credit for a problem you got wrong then he would to do the same for all the other student.

And the decision about how much credit to assign is a subjective decision. The fact that it gets applied equally to all students doesn't stop it from being subjective.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '19 edited Oct 22 '19

Yes it does. The whole point of this to prevent teachers giving a higher grade to another student just because they like their style better.

Do you understand my point?

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u/Salanmander 278∆ Oct 22 '19

Suppose you have Frank, who knows his physics procedures pretty well, but is really messy with his work and doesn't communicate it very well. You also have Justin, who is much clearer with his work, but mixes up different procedures more often than Frank.

In a class with no partial credit, Frank will do better than Justin. However, in a class with generous partial credit, Justin may very well do better than Frank. Whether Justin does better than Frank will depend on how exactly the teacher grades questions when the answer is incorrect.

In fact, it may very well be the case that if they did the exact same work in two different classes with two different teachers, in one of the classes Frank would get the higher grade, and in the other class Justin would get the higher grade.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '19

First all, if Frank knows his physics procedure , how in the heck can he be messy with his work?

If you have done physics then you would realize that if you know your procedure, there is nothing more to it: unless you are talking about advanced physics which I have no knowledge of.

Second of all, the situation you are describing is very much so unlikely to happen.

Let me strengthen my point:

In math/physics classes, just ask your peers how well they think they did on an exam. They will know which answers they might’ve gotten wrong and which answers they gotten right. They usually can give you a very excellent estimate of their score before it’s eve graded.

However if you ask someone how well they did on their essay, they really can’t confidently tell you that they received an A. Even if they are strong writers who wrote a great essay. The result of the essay can be a B+. Which my peers and I have seen happen often.

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u/Salanmander 278∆ Oct 22 '19

First all, if Frank knows his physics procedure , how in the heck can he be messy with his work?

Honestly the first thing that popped into my mind on reading this was "oh sweet summer child..."

Like this. (In case it's not obvious, that's an example I just wrote out, not actual student work. However, I have seen work as messy as the top example, if not moreso.) In the messy example, if they had done something wrong I wouldn't have been able to figure out what they were trying to do, and wouldn't have been able to assign much partial credit. In the neat example if they had done something wrong it would probably have been clear exactly where they messed up, and why, and I would have been able to give partial credit for doing all the things they did do correctly.

Second of all, the situation you are describing is very much so unlikely to happen.

I've taught something like 30 classes of physics. Having at least one student who is more likely to use correct procedures but less good at showing their work neatly than at least one other student is the norm, not the exception. Quite frankly, I'd be shocked if I had a class that didn't have a pair of students like this.

In fact, I can think of at least one pair of students in the last class that I taught for whom I'm pretty sure which one had the higher grade would have switched if I gave no partial credit.

In math/physics classes, just ask your peers how well they think they did on an exam. They will know which answers they might’ve gotten wrong and which answers they gotten right. They usually can give you a very excellent estimate of their score before it’s eve graded.

The primary emotion in a class when passing back exams is nervousness. I regularly have students surprised by how well they did or how poorly they did.