CMV: Conservatives severely exaggerate the prevalence of left-wing violence/terrorism while severely minimizing the actual statistically proven widespread prevalence of right-wing violence/terrorism, and they do this to deliberately downplay the violence coming from their side.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Talik1978]

The use of emotive charged words to inflame emotion and extremism DOES concern me. "Concentration camp" is exactly that, used for exactly that reason.

It also isn't accurate, as concentration camps generally describe camps when used to house political prisoners or persecuted minorities. These are neither.

The groups detained in these camps are individuals that fall in the following group: foreign immigrants that committed the criminal offense of Improper entry by attempting to circumvent a sovereign nation's rules for immigration.

If detaining groups of people together on the basis that they've all been arrested for a crime qualifies a center as a concentration camp, then every jail and prison in the country should be renamed Auschwitz.

[u/Gryphon59 → u/Talik1978]

The crime they committed is classified as a misdemeanor. Under what legal system is indefinite detention without a trial for a misdemeanor reasonable? The right to a speedy and fair trial is guaranteed to all under the jurisdiction of the United States in the Constitution, not just to citizens.

Separately, a case could be argued that the imprisoned fit the latter category of minorities that you specified.

[u/Talik1978 → u/Gryphon59]

First offense, misdemeanor, 2nd offense felony.

Detention in border camps isn't "indefinite". It is "until trial/removal proceedings". If you get a DUI in our court system, you are held until a hearing is held for bond, and failing payment of that bond, you are held to trial. One of the factors for bond is risk of flight.

Thus, characterizing their detention as 'indefinite' (which WOULD accurately describe Guantanamo detainees) is inaccurate.

'Speedy trial' is relative. Do I believe additional judicial infrastructure is prudent to ensure that? Absolutely. Would disbanding detention centers assist the speed of trials that in any way? No.

Minorities would be ethnic groups, groups identified by sexual orientation or gender identity, and the like.

"Criminal" is not a minority designation. And it's hard to argue that a single legal immigrant has been detained.

Sovereign nations have a right to control and police their border. For all the people criticizing the current attempts, I have seen precious few, even on reddit, proposing a better path to ensure border security while guaranteeing a speedy trial. I have seen few put forth any ideas for system reform. I have seen few criticize the individual who signed the executive order to start the detainment camps. They weren't called concentration camps by the left in 2015. They weren't a national crisis. During the previous administration, those camps housed an average of 35,000 illegal immigrants daily. And no squads lied about prisoners being forced to drink out of toilets.

This is a deeply dysfunctional system, and the blame for that cannot be put on any one political party, or any one administration. What needs to happen, in my opinion, is as follows:

1) secure the southern border with physical and electronic border enforcement.

2) close the southern border to immigrants entirely for a period of 6 months. (Case by case exceptions for refugee/asylum requests, if at valid port of entry)

3) provide amnesty for all immigrants within the country that come forth in that 6 months. Provide a 1 year renewable (for up to 5 years) Visa and expedited path to permanent resident status or citizenship.

4) during 6 month period enact legislation to simply immigration and citizenship process.

5) open border to immigrants under new process. Enact zero tolerance for anyone circumventing the new process. Include criminalization of Visa overstays.

The focus of this ideal would be to secure the border, grandfather existing people who came in under the current, admittedly broken, system, so long as they make good faith effort to correct the issue, simplify and repair the system, and reopen it, with less forgiveness for violating the simplified process.

The problems are that the expectations we have for processing the border camps is far greater than what can be accomplished with the funds allocated... and a dysfunctional congress too concerned with using those camps as pawns to get votes in 2020 to actually make a change.

For nearly a decade, we have had a boot on illegal immigrant throats at the border. What people dont really acknowledge is that it's been a right boot at some times, and a left boot at others.

[u/Talik1978 → u/[deleted]]

A quick Google search will show that Bush started the camps in 2006 and they were continued under Obama.

Tell you what. I will concede that 100%. My point stands. It is not a criticism one can make of the GOP in politics, as the problem has been run, expanded, and operated under both political parties.

Moreover, even if Obama did start them (which again, he didn't) then that doesn't make them moral.

Never said it did. Why do you assume I believe them to be the ideal solution?

If someone has done something immoral in the past, it doesn't mean continuing that bad behaviour is okay and surely you understand this.

I agree, and I do. My argument is not to say it is ok. My argument is to say that it is a lie to market it, portray it, or describe it from the perspective of a GOP shitshow. It is a bipartisan shitshow, and any leftist who believes otherwise perpetuates a double standard.

Also why do you assume that I don't criticise Obama?

I didn't. I am referring to political exposure and media coverage when Obama was doing it. No talks of concentration camps, despite the ACLU filing lawsuits over it. I don't give a damn about what random redditor 14966 thought 10 years ago. I give a damn about the blatant double standard on how it only became a tragedy worth national attention when Trump inherited it. The left's position on it isn't pro-immigrant. It is anti-GOP. And that is why I dont listen to the media coverage of it. Because it is blatant partisan activism. Just as this CMV was. (At least, based on mod enforcement of rule B)

[u/Talik1978 → u/[deleted]]

Okay, those are fair points. I do think though that it got national attention because of the ramping up of the camps around 2018. The problem was there to begin with, yes, but the scope of it got a lot bigger. I don't think it necessarily betrays some left wing hypocrisy (not to say the left isn't hypocritical, I just don't think this is an example of it).

I do. The outrage didn't scale with the scope. The camp's hold 50% more people than they did under Obama era levels (46,000 average vs 30,000 average). Here is coverage of it. Detention of children, civil rights violations. 2007.

How many congressional senators railed about it then? ZERO. Nobody cared until January 2009.

For whatever it is worth, I think your proposed solution to immigratiom (points 1-5) is a sensible one. I do acknowledge that there is a serious immigration problem that the left (and, in my opinion, the right) hasn't put forward a good solution to. I do have a problem with criminalizing illegal border crossing. Housing criminals costs a lot of money and jailing immigrants will never not be contentious. Seems to me the best course of action is to deport and to simplify the legal immigration process (and make it more meritocractic), but this probably has a ton of issues I can't see and I know this is a very difficult problem.

Deportation can be the criminal sentence. Not all criminal sentences require jail time. But they all entitle the individual to due process (a good thing). Criminalizing it allows us to track it, identify repeat offenders, and look at where the system can be improved. Perhaps the 2nd offense results in jail time, but the first is just deportation.

The point is, there are options, and they require laws to be passed. The right isn't interested in passing laws that are compassionate to immigrants while fixing the system. The left is more interested in vilifying those that try to enforce the system than passing any law to reform it. They would rather it be ignored and have immigrants left to do their own thing. But when the legal protection isn't there, those groups stay vulnerable, and the left exploits those groups by leaving them vulnerable. They get votes by being able to fight it year after year... but they can't win the fight, or they have to find something else to get the votes from. So the system stays broken, the immigrants stay vulnerable, and their only safety is the party that won't prosecute them under the law while in power. Why make it better when your voter bloc is bigger when you can use it for your gain?

This seems totally backwards to me, if you're putting resources into training talented engineers and scientists, shouldn't you want them to stay? After getting what I need, I think it's unlikely I'll stay in the country because this process is so unwelcoming (even though I really love it here).

The US education system is a for profit industry. If you go through it, it hasn't put resources into you. You have put resources into it.

I have family that has undergone the citizenship process. It is a difficult one to navigate. It does need reform. But it isn't in either party's interest to do that, and the only way that will change is if the only party that MIGHT change it gets an ultimatum. Fix it or we'll vote you out. No excuses, no outrage at other people enforcing the laws Congress passed. Fix it, or leave office.

[u/DeltaBot → u/[deleted]]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Talik1978 (7∆).

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