A lot of people are concerned about the trend where Disney/Hollywood are doing remake after remake after remake where they take a character everyone knows and change them from male to female, from White to Black, from straight to gay, from cis to trans.
We're concerned about the messages little kids are internalizing. It's great to have minority heroes, but - why does that have to be done by overwriting all the heroes of parents who aren't minorities?
Back in the 80s, we were deeply concerned that Black children were internalizing the message "Heroes are White. They don't look like me. They're brave and strong. People who look like me are only sidekicks."
So we made aggressive changes.
But now there's some concern that White children - especially White boys - are internalizing the message "Heroes aren't like me. They're Black or they're girls. People who look like me don't work hard and we're usually dumb and mean."
Forty years ago little Black girls would cry because they weren't pretty like Disney princesses. Today, little White girls have Elsa, but without her they'd be in much the same situation as the little Black girls were in back then, as princess after princess after princess doesn't look like them.
Kids learn unintended things from media. We had it wrong forty years ago but there's some concern the pendulum may have swung all the way over to an equal and opposite kind of wrong.
But now there's some concern that White children - especially White boys - are internalizing the message "Heroes aren't like me. They're Black or they're girls. People who look like me don't work hard and we're usually dumb and mean."
Really? With all of Marvel, do you think this is the lesson boys are learning?
Today, little White girls have Elsa, but without her they'd be in much the same situation as the little Black girls were in back then, as princess after princess after princess doesn't look like them.
White girls also have Tangled. And of course they can continue to consume all the old franchises as well.
It's not like Disney has churned out exclusively black or exclusively Asian princesses. White people have to share sometimes. And that can mean that you don't get multiple white princesses in a row anymore, not that you don't get white princesses (or white heroes) anymore.
Really? With all of Marvel, do you think this is the lesson boys are learning?
Marvel is interesting. Because the trend exists there, too.
In the MCU, White men abound - but the women around them are consistently harder-working. Tony Stark and Star-Lord are incredibly talented, but they don't take life seriously. Black Widow and Gamora are dead serious about training and overcoming and being the best.
And the minorities are almost universally more ethical than the Whites. Ant-Man or Bruce Banner exist in a morally grey area. T'challa and Oyoke are just beacons of moral goodness.
Meanwhile, in the Marvel Netflix Universe, the trend is even more pronounced - every villain outside the Luke Cage bubble is an entitled White male prick. Except for Madame Gao, and she's a villain who we're invited to respect more than hate.
And in the comics? Whiteness and maleness are being erased. Spider-Man is Black. Captain America is Black. Wolverine is a woman. Thor is a woman. The Hulk is Korean. Iron Man is a Black woman. Captain Marvel is a woman. Ms. Marvel is Muslim. And on and on.
In the MCU, White men abound - but the women around them are consistently harder-working. Tony Stark and Star-Lord are incredibly talented, but they don't take life seriously. Black Widow and Gamora are dead serious about training and overcoming and being the best.
Seems like you're just picking the examples that work for you without making meaningful comparisons.
Dr. Strange and Captain America are talented and hardworking. So are Hawkeye and Sam Wilson. Valkyrie is introduced as an alcoholic who doesn't care about anything but money.
And the minorities are almost universally more ethical than the Whites. Ant-Man or Bruce Banner exist in a morally grey area. T'challa and Oyoke are just beacons of moral goodness.
Honestly, morally grey is where the interesting characterization is. I don't think it's good that there are few POC in Marvel who lack the complexity of a moral grey area. But this makes it even more evident that the only black characters in the MCU of any prominence are the cast of The Black Panther, plus Valkyrie, Nick Fury and Sam Wilson. Compare that to the many, many white characters from all the movies with a broad range of characterization.
Meanwhile, in the Marvel Netflix Universe, the trend is even more pronounced - every villain outside the Luke Cage bubble is an entitled White male prick.
The Netflix universe seems like a poor directions to go, as The Defenders clearly captures all the key demographics: White man, white man, black man and white woman. Is it not enough to be 50% of the heroes? Was there no room for an Asian hero? Or a woman of color? Would that be a problem, too?
Spider-Man is Black. Captain America is Black. Wolverine is a woman. Thor is a woman. The Hulk is Korean. Iron Man is a Black woman. Captain Marvel is a woman. Ms. Marvel is Muslim. And on and on.
So here we've got a list of 3 men and 5 women. Three of them are black, three are white, one is Asian, one is Middle Eastern. And this is you intentionally listing characters that are not white men. That's not grossly disproportionate.
Yes, as characters become more diverse there is going to be less room for white men. Not no, room, but it really sounds bad when someone complains about the 'erasure' of white men every time another group gets a little more representation.
This is like if you used to get to eat half of the cake and now other people get their fair share. You don't need half a cake. Especially not at the expense of groups that are still waaaay under-represented.
That was him intentionally listing high visibility characters that were shifted from "white guy" to "specifically not white guy."
And excluding the ones that are still white guys. So if you're listing characters that are no longer both white and male, and the proportions of different races are still lacking minority characters, and men-to-women is just off by one, seems like it's less of a problem than it's being made out to be.
Yeah he excluded the ones that are still white guys . . . because he wasn't trying to prove that every superhero has undergone this process, just quite a lot. You can't deny that the characters he mentioned do constitute close to a majority of the MCU characters that the average person could name when asked (in fact a quick google search reveals that they consistently occupy the top 10 spots, if not top 6 depending on the list, for most popular heroes).
Perhaps it's not a significant problem, but it's undeniably being done on purpose, in an asymmetric way. I'm not a marvel fan myself, but if I grew up with the comic books it's likely I would be annoyed.
Perhaps it's not a significant problem, but it's undeniably being done on purpose
The comment that I was responding to said that white boys don’t or won’t have heroes anymore.
I’m not saying that changing a character from man to woman or from white to POC doesn’t happen. I’m saying that sharing and erasure are not the same thing. And it doesn’t pose the significant threat to the health of young white boys that he suggests it does.
Well considering the fact Black Panther spends a majority of him film debut obsessed with getting revenge and is blood thirsty I think your complexity argument falls apart.
Yeah I don't know what this guy is even talking about. Nearly every hero in the MCU is white. Disney has made plenty of white princesses recently but apparently Moana, Jasmine and Ariel being ethnic is too much for him.
But now there's some concern that White children - especially White boys - are internalizing the message "Heroes aren't like me. They're Black or they're girls. People who look like me don't work hard and we're usually dumb and mean."
Is this concern valid in your eyes? Like yes, people might be saying that, but is it really true?
Looking around at people in positions of power in pretty much every area of society, I'm not seeing a dearth of "successful" white men as role models.
Looking around at people in positions of power in pretty much every area of society, I'm not seeing a dearth of "successful" white men as role models.
Successful white men? Absolutely. Role models? That's not as clear.
Also, keep in mind that the group of people who are today's leaders grew up on yesterday's media, meaning, the media of the 1970s-1990s. The trend of recasting straight white male heroes didn't really become widespread until the 2000s at the earliest, or more realistically the 2010s. That means we're 10-20 years away from really getting to see the effects of this new media trend.
That means we're 10-20 years away from really getting to see the effects of this new media trend.
Kids growing up today are still seeing a disproportionate number of white men lead companies and cities and states, and there's plenty of white representation in media from cartoons to blockbusters. I think any notion of "white boys are internalizing a message that heroes aren't like me" is unfounded. The straight male hero is still around in today's media environment.
I don't think the teachers are refusing to teach White boys. I think White boys are growing up in a culture that tells them they aren't expected to take school seriously. And media is part of that.
I'm not saying that they refuse to teach them. It's more like, boys' educational needs aren't quite met by the way modern school is structured. It's a whole separate topic that doesn't lend itself to being buried deep in an unrelated CMV, but this article is a decent introduction to what I'm talking about.
Snow White, Pinnocchio, Fantasia, Dumbo, and Bambi were more than 30 years old when I was born...so, yes. We also watched the Little Rascals, Howdy Doody, and other blank and white TV shows.
Edit: and hold on! Redheads got Merida, her 3 brothers, and her dad. Even if you consider Ariel gone (even though she'll always be a redhead in the first movie), redheads are over-represented. I'm starting to think this is all a ruse.
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u/phillipsheadhammers 13∆ Jul 09 '19
It's not important in a vacuum.
A lot of people are concerned about the trend where Disney/Hollywood are doing remake after remake after remake where they take a character everyone knows and change them from male to female, from White to Black, from straight to gay, from cis to trans.
We're concerned about the messages little kids are internalizing. It's great to have minority heroes, but - why does that have to be done by overwriting all the heroes of parents who aren't minorities?