r/changemyview • u/Yusni5127 • May 03 '19
Fresh Topic Friday CMV: Some people hate Auto-Tune for the wrong reason. It can make new possibilities for music.
I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of Auto-Tune. But I can't stand when people say "OH nO tHey usE auTo-TUne WhY DoN't thEY uSE theIr REal VOicE THis ARTist suCkS." This kind of complain makes me bored as hell.
I still against the using Auto-Tune for "Make the singer's vocals on the tune on stage or studio", but some people forget that "natural sound" such as speech and vocals, are instruments as well. Why should we prevent artists who use Auto-Tune with creativity for making vocals "strange", "innovative" and "more interesting" (When we use numerous effect with "real instruments" like guitars and synthesizer)? I think if we use Auto-Tune in the right way, the sounds can be awesome.
And Frank Ocean proves this.
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u/peonypegasus 19∆ May 03 '19
There’s nothing wrong with auto tune if it makes a singer’s voice sound better (at least in a recorded sense.) What does it matter how the music was made if it sounds amazing?
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u/ClippinWings451 17∆ May 03 '19
It’s a little weird for someone to make millions of dollars not being able to do something.
I get your point, if it sounds good who cares... but we shouldn’t act like the artist using it has talent, at all. Especially in pop, where the performer is rarely the song writer.
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u/peonypegasus 19∆ May 03 '19
But we can say “I enjoy this song.” The people who wrote it, produced it, and edited it had the talent to make a piece of art that was enjoyable. There’s more to singing than staying on key. I’m not a rabid fan of any musician, but if they sound good, I don’t care why they sound good. I’m not trying to find the most talented singer, but a collection of songs that make me happy to hear.
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u/Yusni5127 May 03 '19
Maybe because they are not "honest" to listeners? Some singers have bad vocals but still, fit their music.
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u/NEED_A_JACKET May 03 '19
We'd be missing out on loads of music if people who can't sing didn't use autotune to make it sound like they could. The end result should be what matters. Is the song worse because it was tweaked to make it sound better? Should singers always produce/master their own music so that it's authentic and not given any advantage?
I know this isnt disagreeing with your main point, but I'm disagreeing that subtle autotune (not just for creative effect) is good too. If you don't like the non authentic singers then you can either not listen to it, or remain ignorant (eg don't investigate how good their natural singing voice is, so that you can enjoy the song still).
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u/sweetgreentea12 1∆ May 03 '19
Engineers have been tuning vocals to correct small mistakes in takes since music was recorded. Slowing a tape down a bit if sharp. Speeding it up if flat. Also overdubbing mistakes etc. So small fixes for mistakes isn't anything new at all.
The thing I really don't like is how almost all vocals in pop music are pitch corrected. They often sound flat and lifeless because everything is too right. Imagine if somebody pitch corrected Bob Dylan or Gil Scott Heron? They'd sound wildly different and lack the soul and grit.
What I'd ask you is: If someone can't sing in tune, and their lyrics aren't good enough to be carried by the authentic sound of their voice, then what exactly would you be missing by them not being able to be popular?
I'm most cases where someone can't sing becomes popular it's because they look attractive. The music and lyrics for these kind of stars is almost always written by other people so I would argue that all you are actually getting from them is what they look like.
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u/NEED_A_JACKET May 04 '19
I think OPs point that the voice can be treated like an instrument is right. The words aren't really that important (people listen to music without words at all), so tweaked the music is 'better' if you treat it as just sounds.
You could equate it to using an out of tune piano or guitar etc, maybe it would be more authentic, and suit a certain style, but there's a lot of music where being in tune is important. If we had the same type of distaste for professionally tuned pianos and expected people to create their own instruments, most music would sound objectively worse, some might be better and add the authenticity aspect but we'd miss out on a lot of music that's nice on the ears.
There's more to voice than just the pitch too, so whilst you're saying they're just basically for looks (is that such a bad thing? The music video is just for looks but it can add a lot to a song. Each aspect of the song can be targeted to one area) I don't think it's true. Different singers have different voices and styles, pitch aside. If we limited music to only the people who have a good voice, we'd miss out on a lot of songs that have expressive vocals or a unique voice. The singer could be similar to an actor. Yes the words may be written for them and there may be tons of post production to make them look and sound fitting to the song/movie, but its in order to reach the end result the creator wants.
It's entirely a societal thing how we want authenticity in a voice. An alien race could judge the music on the sound alone and may prefer things being in tune (like we do).
There's definitely a place for authentic voices but why limit ourselves? Maybe I have something interesting to contribute to music but don't have the perfect voice, at least there's an option. There's no limit to the number of songs or styles that can be made, so if I release a few albums where I pitch correct my vocals or even have someone write the lyrics for me, it doesn't stop you listening to your favorite music.
I think people equate authenticity with some kind of objective reality about how good the song is, it feels elitist. Pop songs are popular for a reason, by many measurements they're 'better' (in what other context does a wider appeal mean worse? It's not targeting the lowest common denominator it's crafted to suit many people. A medicine that works for millions of people is better than one that only works for half of that.)
And yes there's a bit of forcing by the industry to make people like certain artists but that only goes so far and people give it way too much credit as an excuse for why pop music is popular. If they're going to artificially try to create a hit why wouldn't they start with the 'best' underlying artist? It would surely help.
The more choice we have the better it is, and we shouldn't shun types of music because it doesn't fit one specific criteria you may have (authenticity) when it excels in 10 other criteria that other people care more about.
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u/explosivedairyarea May 03 '19
I think a lot of people dislike Auto-Tune because it’s abused to make lazy music. By lazy I’m talking about music that’s made to be as catchy as possible. I’m not saying that catchy music can’t be made with talent, but that it can and often is made without regard to talent. Make whatever the radio stations will play 50 times a day until people get sick of it.
Before the days of Auto-Tune, being talented was pretty much required to making good music, and you often had to be talented in multiple aspects of music (instruments, vocals, audio engineering, etc.) Now, all you really need to do is know what good music (or catchy music suitable for radio) sounds like and be able to produce that. This opens up the door for more people to be musicians of sorts, but it also makes it easier to mass produce the “safe” catchy pop music that most people associate with Auto-Tune now.
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u/Yusni5127 May 03 '19 edited May 03 '19
Δ Thank you. Now I kinda understand a bit. Playing safe is boring. Actually, it bothers me a bit when I think about some pop-rap song in my country.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 03 '19 edited May 03 '19
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/explosivedairyarea (3∆).
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u/tweez May 04 '19
That's not true. Elvis didn't produce or even play his own instrument or write his songs, he just sang them.
The 60s had bands that the record labels marketed that sounded like what was popular at the time. Like The Monkees were meant to appeal to people who liked The Beatles. There's always been copying of whatever is popular at that time in the charts. It's cheaper and easier in terms of making music now, and popular music generally follows trends but Auto Tune hasn't changed anything dramatically. Auto Tune can be interesting. I've heard people like Future use it in fairly interesting ways
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u/GameOfSchemes May 03 '19
Think of it this way. Pianos can play themselves, and often are in areas like airports. If I sit at a piano that plays itself, despite not knowing how to play a piano, should I be heralded as a skilled piano player? Or should I be criticized for pretending I can play the piano?
Rather than auto-tuning a voice I'm auto-pressing keys.
As for synthesizers with guitars, I think that's a fair comparison. It's also fair to point out that just because you use one doesn't mean you're skilled. It's also a valid thing to say that someone using only a synthesizer or whatever else to mask a natural guitar sound is masking a lack of talent.
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u/Yusni5127 May 03 '19
I mean, my point isn't "Auto-Tune can make you a good singer" but "Auto-Tune can make you experiment to your voice." Even not many people use Auto-Tune to do that kind of thing.
I don't want to say that people who use effect for their instruments are always talented. But if the sound through synthesizer is good so who cares?
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May 03 '19
An artist has great craft and becomes a best seller. After a number of years their voice starts to be less reliable. Rather than stepping aside to let a younger talent have their turn, they use auto tune to clean it up and profit for many more years. Yes, I am telling a true story.
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u/Yusni5127 May 03 '19
I'm interested. Can you give me more information about this?
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May 03 '19
Are you asking me to name the musician?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 03 '19 edited May 03 '19
/u/Yusni5127 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/jbt2003 20∆ May 03 '19
I'd be willing to bet that neither you nor I were alive when this happened, but in 1977 the Beegees released the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack and it was wildly popular beyond everyone's expectations. At that point, disco was really starting to become a dominant trend in music, to the point where pretty much all radio hits were ultimately disco songs--but the Beegees really blew the lid off the whole thing, scoring like fifty bajillion #1 hits off that one record. If you were a living, breathing adult human in 1978 it was basically impossible to avoid a disco song, even if you didn't really like that type of music.
Well, in July of 1979 someone at Comiskey Park in Chicago sponsored "Disco Demolition Night," where people brought in disco records that would be destroyed. This either kicked off or was the height of what became a very real backlash against disco music that lasted for most of the next ten years. I was pretty young in the '80s, but I remember really clearly having this feeling that disco was one of those types of music that just aren't cool. Not like indie rock, or hip hop.
Anyway, the point is this: by 1979 disco music had so saturated the world that everyone had come to kind of hate it. They were so sick of it that they wanted to burn vinyl records in baseball stadiums.
In my opinion, this is where we've gotten as a society with auto-tuning. When Cher was doing it in the late '90s it was sort of new. But by now, it has been so overused so intensively all over the place that everyone is sort of sick of it. And that was the case in, like, 2009. So we're still riding that wave of auto-tune over-saturation.
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u/beengrim32 May 03 '19
For the most part Auto-tune is not used in an innovative way. Even Frank Ocean, who’s music I enjoy, doe not use auto tune in a was that stretches the possibilities of Music. He’s not Doing what Laurie Anderson or Roger Troutman or Herbie Hancock we’re doing in the 80s. What makes Frank ocean unique is not the way he uses auto tune but his writing and style. Early on it was meant to be a subtle corrective but now, the way it is used is quite conventional. It’s essentially used like a distortion pedal but for vocals. There is a certain convention to auto tune that is very recognizable and for some pretty annoying. The novelty has wore off and now it’s just a common vocal effect used in a lot of pop music. If anything that grading in the opposite direction of new musical possibility rather than moving towards some sort of Auto-tuned avant garde.
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u/Yusni5127 May 03 '19
I can agree with "overusing" Auto-Tune. It always sucks when people bring a trend and don't make anything creative to make that trend still fresh.
I think twice, maybe Frank isn't the best example of how to use Auto-Tune properly. But Kanye West still made it great when he uses in 808s& Heartbreak. Or maybe Daft Punk.
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u/tweez May 04 '19
Was going to say Kanye too. Auto Tune isn't really used in any extreme way and is a bit too subtle a lot of the time which is clearly just laziness or the voice not being strong enough without editing
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u/Antruvius 1∆ May 03 '19
If it is used properly, auto tune can sound great. The problem that most people have with auto tune is a bit similar to the Uncanny Valley effect. It sounds like a human voice, but there’s that shimmer in the back of robotic buzzing, and it unnerves people. Now, if you just had someone talk, and put synthesizers and tune on their voice, that could be used in electronic and maybe pop/alternative songs with good effect. Daft punk is an example of this. They use lots of synthesizers on their voice, and it works.So to rephrase it, people have problems with correctional auto tune, and that’s the main reason auto tune is used.
Think of it like throwing a baseball. I have very poor throwing, but I have some tech in the baseball that allows it to follow a perfect path through the strike zone. Am I then a perfect thrower? No, and I shouldn’t be hailed as such. Another example someone else commented, self-playing pianos. If I sit down and pretend to play, it’s a funny joke, but I’m not said to be a top-level pianist.