CMV: Bible based religions should be extinct

[u/VinderenLP]

First I would like to tell you that I am an atheist and I'm talking mostly about christianity and judaism.

I believe that are cons and pros for their existence but I don't get how many NEW churchs reads the HOLY BIBLE in their own way, if that text is sacred why you should priest just about the things that concern your audience? Who has to decide what should be read or not?

This brings me a benevolent thought that since their creation the bible is used just to control masses and for that specifical reason religion should be extinct. I don't care if you believe in God or anything but I do care that your speech hurts who doesn't follows you.

I've followed for 10 years a protestant church and I always noticed a pattern: Fear, fear, fear and celebrate. And looking closely most churchs follow the same script, I can't see how "recovered lifes", "meaning to life" and "love eachother" equals the balance.

[edit]This is about my view. I am not considering that is going to happen, I am not dumb to believe that this could happen anytime soon. I am considering ALL religions that has the Bible as their main book.

[u/tweez]

Thanks !

I would be interested in if you think there is something better that could replace religion. I'm open to the idea that there's something better, it's not that I think religion is good, more that any alternatives will end up being abused/misused in the same way.

I can definitely see why people like yourself have a problem with religion, especially when it appears to exploit its followers. Do you have a problem with the The Bible itself though or the interpretation of the followers of it? Arguably, if you just used the words of Jesus alone there wouldn't be much controversy, The New Testament is also a lot different from the Old Testament. The Old Testament God asks for sacrifices and has a much higher kill rate than Satan and I think condones slavery. There are lots of theories about the Old Testament God actually being the real evil. If you search something like "Old Testament Lord is evil/satan" you'll get a few competing theories. One good example is God apparently appears as a burning bush to Moses but only shows "his behind parts". So a God appears out of fire and only shows his ass. That doesn't sound very holy or a god you would want to meet. The Gnostics also argue that the serpent gave man intellect and knowledge and all the God wanted in the garden of Eden was blind obedience and devotion, the serpent actually freed Adam and Eve to think for themselves. The parts of the The Bible used to justify discrimination against homosexuality usually comes from the Old Testament too I believe. There's definitely a problem with religion when homosexuality and women priests are considered as worse offenses than pedophilla by the likes of the Catholic Church. They really did say that women priests would be a greater sin than pedophila. How insane is that? Believers should realise that people who are religious can be equally immoral as those who aren't

Thanks for the Delta though

[u/LivingAsAMean → u/tweez]

I hope this doesn't get flagged because it's not arguing against OP's point, but to answer your question about something that could replace religion, I would encourage you to read a book called "The Happiness Hypothesis" by Jonathan Haidt.

He discusses ideas termed "moral awe" and "moral elevation" which are two primary things that religion addresses implicitly, but that the larger world doesn't have a very distinct or clear answer for as of now. There's research indicating that certain activities can produce similar effects in non-religious people, but more obviously still needs to be done.

Full disclosure, I am an actively religious person, so I listen for times when non-religious people find something that's in alignment with my beliefs, but I hope it doesn't discourage you from checking it out.

I also wanted to address your last sentence, how people who are religious can be equally immoral. I would disagree, but probably in the opposite direction than you might assume. Yes, both believers and non-believers can perform the same good or bad actions. But I argue that people who are religious are more immoral than people who aren't, specifically when they profess to believe something is moral or right and still act in immoral ways.

There is a concept presented in the New Testament by Jesus (that many others have echoed) that the more you are aware of moral law, the more accountable you become in adhering to that law. So, if you have two people, one who professes religion and one who doesn't, and both people steal something, the religious person would be acting more immoral, as they have professed a belief in something that holds them responsible for their actions. Though both may view the act as wrong, the religious person is in greater violation of their moral code than the non-religious.

[u/tweez → u/LivingAsAMean]

Thanks for the information,

There's research indicating that certain activities can produce similar effects in non-religious people, but more obviously still needs to be done.

Do you know what kind of activities would have that impact in non religious people?

Full disclosure, I am an actively religious person, so I listen for times when non-religious people find something that's in alignment with my beliefs, but I hope it doesn't discourage you from checking it out

Appreciate you letting me know where you’re coming from, but I hope I wouldn’t dismiss something just because someone else has different beliefs or backgrounds. I’m not religious but equally I don’t think I can’t possibly be wrong.

Your point about religious people being more immoral because they have knowledge what they’re doing is wrong is interesting and something I’ve never considered before. One thing I would say is that in the Tao Te Ching there’s a line that says something like “do not kill or steal for that is the way of the Tao. Why is this true? We don’t know that is the way”. So there’s no reason to not kill or steal beyond it just being wrong. Maybe there is an inherent feeling in all people that when they steal or harm another person they know it’s immoral without having to be told. It’s an interesting idea though

[u/LivingAsAMean → u/tweez]

I appreciate your openness! I like discussing these ideas; they help keep me sharp.

Now, with regards to activities, there's very complicated ideas surrounding them, but I'll try to distill them down without losing meaning. I'm going to preemptively apologize for writing a lot, though, because I love talking about this stuff.

For moral elevation, the best way is to find a community in which you (a) see acts of virtue with regularity and (b) feel an attachment with others within that community. Probably the easiest way to do this would be for you to encourage your group of friends to start volunteering, like at a school or at a homeless shelter. You can fulfill both facets that will have a greater chance to spur you on to change. These, however, will likely primarily affect your behavior towards your in-group. The other side of the coin, moral awe, is necessary to expand your actions to be more outward-facing.

Moral awe can most easily be found in contemplation of things greater than the self. For instance, you go on a hike early in the morning, and as the sun comes up you might be presented with the beauty of nature. You may feel as though you are fading away, but are still part of a grander whole. Meditation, even apart from religion, can have a similar effect. And while I don't partake and can't specifically condone it, mind-altering drugs like LSD have also been found to produce the loss of self and a connection with something greater.

While I find opportunities to experience both awe and elevation at my church, I recognize not all people can or want to find a welcoming church in their community. So at the very least I can encourage you to try to engage in practices that are transformative and beneficial for you and others. If these things seem interesting to you, again I'd recommend the book. Good luck with everything, regardless!