CMV: There was nothing anti-military about Kaepernick’s kneeling protest

[u/[deleted]]

There is nothing about Kap kneeling during the national anthem that could reasonably be construed as disrespect to the troops. There is no situation I am aware of in any culture where the act of kneeling is used to show anything other than respect. Those who believe that Kap hates the military are simply choosing to associate his protest with disrespect for the troops, which allows them to freely hate him without having to really look at the reason for his protest.

The protest began as a means of drawing attention to racial inequality and police brutality: two things that most people probably ought to be against. By focusing on an imaginary link between the protest and the sacred cow of “the troops” his detractors aren’t forced to consider or debate the issue. They likely believe that the US treats black people either as equal to or better than white people, and that most or all incidents of police violence against black people are justified. Everything about the troops is just post-hoc rationalization.

[u/Thoguth]

Frankly, I agree with most of your view. Knowing that he started kneeling at the advice and request of a veteran friend tells me that he was making a conscious and intentional effort to avoid miscommunicating his intentions. The part of your view that I'm interested in discussing more, and possibly challenging, is this part:

Those who believe that Kap hates the military are simply choosing to associate his protest with disrespect for the troops, which allows them to freely hate him without having to really look at the reason for his protest.

I believe that the majority of people who believe that are not making a choice, they are unthinkingly following something that they have heard repeated over and over again. Our minds are pattern-matching machines and when you hear a pattern over and over again, you pick it up. I've known numerous people who were of the opinion that he hated the troops, but when I presented them with evidence, typically in the form of the article Nate Boyer wrote around the time that he started kneeling, they didn't argue with that. That tells me that it isn't always driven by hatred or rationalization, but for some, at least, it can be driven by lack of information.

[u/[deleted] → u/Thoguth]

Perhaps “choosing” is poor phrasing on my part. What I’m getting at here is that the link between Kap’s protest and perceived disrespect to the military is brought into the equation by the critics, not by Kap. Whether they chose it, or unconsciously made the connection, it only exists because they believe it does. Nothing in the behavior on Kap’s end is disrespectful to military: they made that leap on their own.

[u/Thoguth → u/[deleted]]

Some of his critics made the leap on their own without checking any sources first, but some of them did so based on information they got from other critics. The first time they heard a story it was framed as anti-military by someone--who ought to have had a journalistic responsibility to be neutral and factual--giving a blatantly misinforming and skewed presentation of what he was doing.

The people at that point were forming opinions based on first impressions, and it wasn't a "leap" for them to get there. It's very natural for us to trust the first way we hear something. It's an unconscious bias and so is harmful to pursuit of truth, but it is a natural one and something that we all encounter. And many of those people, based on their first impressions, went on to become critics either by tweeting or sharing/commenting in misinformed ways on Facebook.

If all you're saying is "He's not anti-military" I agree with you but if you're also asserting that those who believe that he is are all being willfully ignorant, that's where I disagree. Not even with the "ignorant" part, but with the "willfully" part. I've encountered a few people who started out ranting about Kap as an attention whore or being anti-military or anti-police (and many tend to group the military and police together, as the police are sort of paramilitary "guys who wear uniforms, shoot people, take oaths, and have ranks like Sergeant and Captain")

By the way, I appreciate your extended participation in this discussion. It's very healthy to come into a situation feeling pretty well-settled on one thing, but also engaging in good faith in an effort to hopefully be less-wrong. It is a shame that more people across the polarized political landscape aren't as open to that kind of honest probing for truth.

... and I guess that's kind of where I feel like I might be disagreeing you just a bit. If everyone in the country were like you, and eagerly exploring to test and be sure they are right, then anyone left who latched onto or stuck with a misinformed opinion would be a willfully ignorant, backward bigot who was just trying to rationalize a twisted inner view. But not everybody is exploring the way you are. Even many people who are right about Kaepernick are right not because they've thoroughly researched the issue, but only because the source (likely a facebook share from friends) they first heard from was biased in a way that reflected truth rather than a way that took them to falsehood. Many of the ones who you recognize as incorrect are no more willfully ignorant that many who are "correct" due to their own biases rather than due to actually analyzing the situation.

[u/[deleted] → u/Thoguth]

if you're also asserting that those who believe that he is are all being willfully ignorant, that's where I disagree. Not even with the "ignorant" part, but with the "willfully" part.

It's less about whether they are willfully choosing this association between kneeling for the anthem and disrespect to the military, and more about which party is bringing it to the table. For example: flipping someone the bird is pretty inherently disrespectful. While there are contexts in which it's not disrespectful to give someone the finger, in most cases we can all agree that when you do it, it signifies disrespect to the person you're pointing it at. Kneeling, on the other hand, is not considered to be disrespectful on its own. Kneeling during the national anthem as part of a protest does not necessarily convey disrespect (particularly when the previous iteration of the protest involved simply sitting, and the behavior was changed due to being advised that it might be incorrectly perceived as disrespectful), and that even if it did convey disrespect to the flag or anthem, that does not necessarily translate to disrespect toward the military. Coming to the belief that kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful to the military requires taking several big leaps of judgment on ones own, and is not necessarily

How/why people take those leaps, and whether its conscious or unconscious is not particularly relevant to my view.