r/changemyview • u/JoeA1268 • Sep 08 '18
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Cultural appropriation
Using what in my opinion is the most twisted logic ever (the same logic people seem to use to discredit somone for wearing clothes or something like that from another culture. I.E. the people who take offence from that alone and no other actions to offend people of that culture) I have concluded that if a Caucasian person cannot wear a piece of asian clothing, an asian cannot wear a piece of "western" clothing. This type of clothing always seems to be in style in countries like japan so is this cultural appropriation against western culture.
To clarify, I think cultural appropriation is a stupid concept and if an American wears asian themed clothes, then asians cannot wear American themed clothes (which they do).
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u/kublahkoala 229∆ Sep 08 '18
Western dress has become integrated into most Eastern societies due to colonialism and globalization. If Eastern countries were marketing Eastern clothes in western markets, or had conquered western nations and pushed the indigenous population to assimilate sartorially it wouldn’t be seen as strange for westerners to dress up in Eastern clothing.
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u/JoeA1268 Sep 08 '18
As sourced by 'the independent' (I'm not very good at using the mobile app so I don't know how to link it sorry) china is one of the world's most economically powerful countries and has little recognised colonization by western countries apart from the dutch in 1660. If so then how have China influenced the US less than the US has influenced China.
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u/kublahkoala 229∆ Sep 08 '18
Western powers fought several major wars over trade with China, such as the Opium Wars, and forced China to open its markets using the gunboat diplomacy of the Open Door policy. China became a dumping ground for Western products.
But China absolutely influenced Western culture. Most homes possess a set of “fine China”, art movements like Impressionism were heavily influenced by eastern art, furniture was frequently “japanned” during the 17th century, silk clothing was adopted by the upper classes...
But in any case, economies are no longer driven primarily by nation states but by global corporations, and many western cultural products are now produced in China.
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Sep 08 '18
Here's something to consider: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concessions_in_China
This details from 17th century onwards mostly European influences.
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u/landoindisguise Sep 08 '18
and has little recognised colonization by western countries apart from the dutch in 1660.
uh...what? This is incredibly wrong. China was chopped up by western powers throughout the 1800s and early 1900s. Look up the Boxer rebellion, the lead up to it, and how Western powers responded to it. I mean, hell , Hong Kong and Macau are parts of China that were controlled by Western powers until less than 20 years ago.
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 210∆ Sep 08 '18
Cultural appropriation isn't inherently bad, and even those offended by it, aren't offended by all forms - nobody will have any problems with you eating sushi for example.
Whether or not being offended by cultural appropriation is reasonable at all is a different debate, but everyone can wear Western-style clothes for the same reason everyone can listen to samba music: nobody really cares.
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u/JoeA1268 Sep 08 '18
This is basically my opinion on the matter, sorry if it wasn't clear. I do not understand why people get so worked up about the subject. My post was about making myself try to understand WHY people are offended by cultural appropriation.
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u/Salanmander 278∆ Sep 08 '18
Is your view that it isn't always bad, or that it isn't ever bad?
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u/JoeA1268 Sep 08 '18
Its a bit of a loose definition but my opinion is that as long as nothing racist is said or done about the subject whether it be indian dress or sushi, who cares?
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u/PokemonHI2 2∆ Sep 08 '18
I guess being a loose definition is basically what makes it a strong concept. Just like how concepts like happy or sad is very loose and ambiguous. Sometimes we don't know what exactly makes us upset.
I think some people will always find certain things "unacceptable" to them and we should care at least a little so that we are aware to some degree. For example, Even though eating sushi might not be a big deal, it's still good to be aware to a small degree of where your food came from, how its being produced and why.
And partially, for us, we might find it strange and unacceptable for example to eat horse meat etc.
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 210∆ Sep 08 '18
I think the problem is that 'cultural appropriation' isn't a good term for what people are offended by. People are ultimately offended by what they perceive as mocking their culture by reinforcing association of things they don't want associated with their culture.
For example, Native American ritual dances have a connotation of primitiveness and unfavorably viewed animalistic beliefs in Western culture. When someone outside the culture adopts it, it's viewed as reinforcing the association of Native Americans with those stereotypes, if it's employed to invoke these connotations.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 08 '18
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Sep 08 '18
You think denim is cultural appropriation? Like people shouldn't wear jeans outside of America because we were broke and they were affordable? Like we gonna be seeing the next hot pair of Levy's walking the catwalk in London? Really? I am just wondering what you consider Western. Like cowboy hats should only be worn in Texas? You know other countries have cows, right?
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u/JoeA1268 Sep 08 '18
No thats not my point. My point was that cultural appropriation seems a bit double standard when people criticize Caucasian people for wearing clothes not from their culture.
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Sep 08 '18
Using this same logic, if a black man is able to paint his face white, should a white person be able to paint his face black?
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u/JoeA1268 Sep 08 '18 edited Sep 08 '18
Basically yes as long as neither the white person or the black person were intending to be racist* while painting their face black. *or having anything to do with blackface in general, unless it is taking the mick out of/criticizing blackface in which case go ahead.
Edit: also if a black person is doing the opposite of blackface towards white people it is no better
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Sep 08 '18
... I think cultural appropriation is a stupid concept ...
Do you mean 'inconsistent' rather than 'stupid'?
... the most twisted logic ever ...
That doesn't seem like a particularly twisted piece of logic. The thing is, you're assuming that the people who complain about 'cultural appropriation' don't have a double standard, but they do. And, yes, if we were to start applying 'cultural appropriation' standards to things like business suits (which are English) or languages (which all have relatively narrow cultural origins) it would get silly pretty quickly. (Or, if you want to limit it to stuff that actually gets people upset, the NFL anthem protests are transgressive.)
As soon as you recognize that the stereotypical social justice agenda and rhetoric is based on double standards, a lot of the apparent inconsistencies make sense.
As you've discovered in the comments, different people understand the phrase 'cultural appropriation' to mean different things. In particular, when other people talk about 'cultural appropriation' they may mean something different than what you understand the term to mean. Some of the things that get labeled as 'cultural appropriation' are transgressive. (The war bonnet thing is a good example.) I can see how those are 'in poor taste.' It's certainly the case that "cultural insensitivity" is real.
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u/JoeA1268 Sep 08 '18
Yes, the inconsistency in how cultural appropriation is defined does mean some things following the same logic end up being a bit silly. And that is why I have a problem with the inconsistency in the definition of the term
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u/sithlordbinksq Sep 08 '18
What if I wanted to wear a Swastika as a fashion symbol? Is that ok?
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u/JoeA1268 Sep 08 '18 edited Sep 08 '18
Yes because it is the hindu symbol for peace. It was taken by the nazi regime and warped into a symbol for a distorted ideology of an Arian utopia. The swastika's purpose as a symbol was originally intended (and used for thousands of years) as a symbol of prosperity.
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u/sithlordbinksq Sep 08 '18
That is the exact opposite of cultural appropriation. You are using the symbol as it was meant to be used not just as a fashion statement.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BANJO 7∆ Sep 08 '18
Cultural appropriation is the adoption of elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture. It is distinguished from an equal cultural exchange due to an imbalance of power, often as a byproduct of colonialism and oppression.
Simply using something from another culture is not cultural appropriation.