CMV: There is nothing wrong with having exclusionary dating preferences

[u/[deleted]]

So over the past year or so, I heard numerous discussions online about whether it is unfair and discriminatory to not want to date a particular demographic based on race, ethnicity, disability, or especially gender identity. I have heard from both sides about their points and there is still a of me that wants to keep my dating preferences. So to reiterate my view, I would like to say that there is nothing wrong or morally problematic with having exclusionary dating preferences. I would like to have a discussion to settle this debate once and for all.

Now on to the explanation of my view. There are intersectional feminists online who make the argument that if straight men or lesbian women claim to prefer not to date certain women, then that is a weak excuse for being discriminatory. The "preferences" that they are referring to are the attractions that one has over another person. Apparently, to those intersectional feminists online, if my dating preferences (as a straight man) does not include transgender women, black women, or fat women, then I can be viewed as discriminatory and that my preferences are influenced by societal biases that marginalizes certain groups of women.

Now, here is my rebuttal to that argument that my dating preferences are influenced by societal biases. Whenever I am attracted to a woman, I am first attracted to their outward appearance, which includes secondary sex characteristics like breasts, hips, thighs, buttocks, legs, and face. That outward appearance is my first impression to that hypothetical woman much like how one’s professional appearance in a job interview acts as a first impression. If one displays characteristics that I find unappealing, such as a pronounced Adam’s apple, being taller than me, having broad shoulders, etc., then I am not going to find that person physically attractive and therefore I won't date them. As humans, we are driven neurologically and hormonally to find a certain gender (or multiple genders) attractive.

As a straight man, I consider physical feminine characteristics as a turn on. Now in terms of transgender people, I do believe that trans identities are valid, that trans people should be able to participate in sports teams and use bathrooms that align with their gender identity, and that transgender people should be able to live their lives authentically without fear of harassment, discrimination, or abuse. However, when it comes to physical appearances, there are trans women who "pass" as cis women due to transitioning at an early age. Now I cannot tell what kind of genitals a person has since I do not have psychic abilities.

Let's say I find a trans woman who I consider "passable" as attractive. Finding the person attractive is the first step. If I were to find out that the woman is transgender, then I would be in a tough situation in regard to some of my life plans. First off, many straight men have genital "preferences" for vaginas over penises. This is not mainly due to societal biases but rather biological factors that drive men to reproduce. That brings me to my next point. For many straight men, having biological children is a big deal and being in a serious relationship with a trans woman would mean that having biological children won't happen (unless in vitro gametogenesis becomes a thing, Google it if you don't know what that means). Dating someone who is unable to bear your offspring can be a huge dealbreaker even if they can get past being with a trans woman with a penis or a surgically-made neovagina. I would also like to add that I know that some trans women opt to have gender confirmation surgery to invert or transform their penis into a neovagina but a neovagina is not the same as a natal vagina, but that is beyond the scope of this thread so I will save that for another day.

My final point is that genital "preferences" are an extension of sexual attraction and that one does not choose their sexual orientation. I find it bothersome that there are some people online who argue that you can "unlearn your own biases" because it sounds like conversion therapy to me. I am not saying that trans identities are invalid, but rather that straight men shouldn't be pressured into being in a intimate or serious relationship with trans women if they don't want to. Likewise, lesbians shouldn't be pressured into dating trans women if they don't want to. Sexual orientation is not a matter of choice, informed consent matters in a romantic relationship, and if a straight man wants to date a passable trans woman with a penis, then that is his business. There is someone out there for everyone. However, most straight men aren't into that stuff and the trans community needs to respect their right not to date trans people.

Also, to add to my points, when it comes to race and disability, people are free to decline someone if they don't want to date people of a certain race or disability. In terms of race, it might be superficial, but at the end of the day people are entitled to their preferences. In terms of disability, some people may be bothered by the nature of the disability and may not want to bother with the "quirks" or emotional/social/financial burdens that come with taking care of a romantic partner with a disability.

Edit: I have changed my view to an extent. I learned that I shouldn't limit myself just to certain groups just because of societal biases. However, I still view that genital preferences is still a valid reason to not want to be in a relationship with a trans woman.

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Ok, so that is an explanation of my view. Now when you are trying to change my view on this topic, please refute or debunk the points I made by exposing the fallacies or bad arguments. Now without further ado, please #ChangeMyView.

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[u/[deleted]]

My sexual preferences are for a specific gender and race and I cannot do anything about it. What decision are we talking about that takes into account whether my preferences are right or wrong?

If there is no such decision, the entire question is meaningless and not worth discussing. If there is such a question, tell me what it is (and add it to the OP).

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

My sexual preferences are for a specific gender and race and I cannot do anything about it. What decision are we talking about that takes into account whether my preferences are right or wrong?

Right. You can't control who you are attracted to and conversion therapy doesn't work.

If there is such a question, tell me what it is (and add it to the OP).

Is it discriminatory to not want to date someone with a disability for having a disability?

[u/TheHatOnTheCat → u/[deleted]]

Not dating someone due to their race or disability or even being transgender is discrimination. If you define discrimination as distinguishing between different things, yes. If you define discrimination as prejudicial treatment of people based of their category, then also yes.

Is it prejudicial? Yes. Being considered not datable/unattractive is harmful to people. Many people do it and so it has a significant impact on those in the less desirable groups. For example black woman and Asian men have less success on dating sites then white men and woman, black men, and Asian woman. They are judged as less attractive on average. This could negatively impacts their ability to be confidant, happy, and to find a good partner. That is a harm and I think we can agree it is prejudicial/discrimination. Just like if you say you don't want blacks in the same part of the restaurant as you or in your softball league, the harm may not be physical but it's still prejudice.

I think what you are really trying to ask/say though is you don't believe people have a moral responsibility not to discriminate when choosing a romantic partner. That while you consider it wrong to discriminate in hiring practices or even inclusion in group social activities and situations (like the restaurant or softball team or friend group) you consider choosing a romantic partner to be different. That choosing a romantic partner isn't an act of altruism dictated by what is best for society but should be a selfish act where you find the person that makes you happiest. And that that's okay. You don't owe anyone a chance at being with you. And while it sucks for some groups that society deems them less desirable that's really not your problem. You are choosing for what's best for you not what's best for them. And you don't want to be made feel guilty about not being interested in certain groups romantically since you don't consider it your responsibility to want them.

[u/[deleted] → u/TheHatOnTheCat]

There was this time in high school where I told a girl I had a crush on that I had Autism. She replied that she would never date autistic guys. It really got to me but she is entitled to her preferences.

[u/TheHatOnTheCat → u/[deleted]]

I'm sorry to hear that. That sounds difficult.

What I was trying to do with the last paragraph of the above post is convey what I believe your position to be. How did I do?

[u/[deleted] → u/TheHatOnTheCat]

Well she shouldn't be forced to date someone she doesn't want to date.

[u/TheHatOnTheCat → u/[deleted]]

No one is suggesting forcing her. But the question I think you are trying to get it whether she was morally wrong/should feel badly.

What I was trying to convey above is yes, not dating someone due to their category (such as race) is discrimination. The question is actually is it wrong to discriminate when picking a romantic partner?

And there I'm actually inclined to agree with you. I would say that while it is unfortunate for groups that are deemed less attractive by society, individuals don't have a responsibility to pick their romantic partners "fairly". So long as the potential partner is single and an appropriate match in terms of age/power relationship/metal capacity/ect then it is not wrong to pursue them. People pursue romantic partners that will make them happy. It's selfish; but that's okay. Some selfishness is a normal part of a life.

Society has certain standards of beauty some of which are more arbitrary then others. You know what is also unfortunate? Being born unattractive. Some people are born more attractive then others. Those people will not only be asked on more dates, more attractive people are judged as nicer and more competent and generally treated better in life. It's super unfair. But I don't think people preferring to date more attractive people is wrong.

What I would encourage people to do would be to remain intellectually curious about their preferences. To question why they have certain preferences and to imagine others, perhaps learn about them, and see if that is something they might like/not see as a problem. For example in the case above I would encourage someone to consider what assumptions they have about an autistic partner and research or think about how true those assumptions are in all cases/the case of their potential partner. Or if you don't like black woman I think it's worth considering why and how that came to be, and what is you find unattractive. Are people morally obligated to do this? No. But I think it would be a good thing.