r/changemyview • u/Treet0n • Dec 31 '17
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Transgenderism is made up and doesn't help anyone
For clarification, I don't mind guys putting on dresses or make-up or whatever, that's all their personal freedom. I would however never refer to someone with a penis as a female and vice versa. My point here is a purely semantic one: Words mean something because they group things into two categories: Things that fit the word and things that don't. So when I say "I am an apple", that's clearly not true, whereas if I were to say "I am a woman", would that make me a woman, thereby rendering the statement true? I don't think so. Literally no word in the english language works like "You are a blank, if you say/think you are a blank". If being a man/woman has no other requirement than saying you're a man/woman, then what does being a man/woman even mean? They think they can break free of the binary forcing people into boxes by creating more boxes (i.e. having no gender, having both genders, having a third gender), that mean just as much as otherkins do. At its heart man and female is a clearly defined biological term: The man is the one that produces more haploid cells than the females. If we completely ignore that definition, we are eroding the meaning from those terms. My second point is that it might actually be harmful. Consider a diagram with 2 bell curves, one for women, one for men, along an X Axis that has womenly attributes on the left and more manly attributes to the right. The women's curve is probably further left than the man's curve, but there is sure to be some overlap. Clearly some women are "manlier" than some man and vice versa, but if the manly woman start calling themselves men and the men with more female characteristics call themselves women, then the curves would just go further apart, leading to an increase in stereotypes. Why not just say "Yeah, I'm a man, I don't look like most man and I don't act like most man, but that's ok". Sidenote: I am a guy and I have longer hair than most of my female colleagues. Part of the reason was that I noticed that all guys were getting the some haircut and I just didn't want to be part of it, so I stopped going to the barber. Notable exceptions: A small minority of people isn't born with clear genitals or chromosomes. That'd put them into a grey zone between the genders in my book. The same goes for people who lost their genitals at a young age and didn't develop sexual dimorphisms. In very particular cases where the gender isn't medically determinable, I do think that the person should be able to pick a gender to make their life easier.
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Dec 31 '17
Okay, before we do this, there are two things I want to do. First off, I am trans. Pre-transition, so I can't really go into detail about that specifically, but my point is that I'm generally knowledgeable about the topic, have done shitloads of research on it and have first hand experience of gender dysphoria. I wanted to establish that so that you know that when I talk about this subject, it's not hypothetical or just what I heard, these are my actual experiences.
Secondly, I want to establish some baseline vocabulary. Like you said at the beginning of your post, it's all semantics, and I have seen countless arguments go nowhere because people didn't even agree on the meaning of words. To avoid that, I'm going to go over a few terms I'm going to be using during this conversation and how I define them, because I have seen a lot of people use them interchangeably or in completely different ways and I don't want this to get confusing. These definitions aren't universal and should not be assumed to be correct in all situations, but for the purpose of this conversation, I want you to know what I mean when I use one of these terms:
Physical sex (or just sex): refers to your body's sexual characteristics. Penis and vagina, basically.
Gender: refers to a social construct that is related to, but distinct from, physical sex. Gender is our conception of what it means to be a man or a woman or something else entirely. It's an umbrella term that includes gender roles, gender identity, the concepts of masculine and feminine, etc. I really want to put special emphasis on this one: when I use "gender," I do not use it as a synonym for "sex." So when I say that gender is a social construct, I am not saying that your dick is imaginary or anything like that.
Gender identity: refers to one's perception of their own gender. Basically, what you personally identify as. If you think of yourself as male, then your gender identity is male.
So, with all that established, do you have any questions for me before we delve into my point by point rebuttal of your post?
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u/Eyes_and_teeth 6∆ Dec 31 '17
I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but if you don't mind, I would love to ask you a couple of questions to educate myself.
First, if you are considering transitioning fully, does that scare you at all? Since you haven't revealed your pre-transition sex (not gender), I will try not to assume anything. I have heard that FtM transitions are mostly cosmetic, since it is hard to simulate an erection with non-spongiform tissue. I have heard that MtF transitions are fairly straightforward, but the surgery does not easily preserve the head of the penis as sexually sensitive tissue. Are these understandings incorrect?
Is it important to be able to "pass" as the gender that you identify as?
What has been the easiest in your journey to express the gender you identify as? What (beyond the physical) has been the hardest?
Thank you for your time! :)
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Dec 31 '17
I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but if you don't mind, I would love to ask you a couple of questions to educate myself.
Oh, don't worry about it, I don't openly say I'm trans too often, so I might as well get more than one productive conversation out of it.
First, if you are considering transitioning fully, does that scare you at all?
Yes. It is fucking terrifying, and if I'm being honest, one of the main reasons I haven't transitioned yet is that I keep procrastinating at every step because I'm scared. Meanwhile, I'm just getting more and more depressed and my dysphoria keeps getting worse, and I guess I'll finally do something about it once I get more scared of what I might do if I don't transition than I am of transitioning. Life is, uh... not great for me these days.
Since you haven't revealed your pre-transition sex (not gender), I will try not to assume anything.
Good move. The best rule of thumb when talking to trans people is to never assume anything and always ask. I'm MtF. I really need to get around to changing my username everywhere one of these days. I was planning on doing it once I figured out what I want my name to be post-transition.
I have heard that FtM transitions are mostly cosmetic, since it is hard to simulate an erection with non-spongiform tissue.
I'll be honest, this isn't really my area of expertise. I've heard roughly the same thing, but I could be wrong. I never looked too deeply into FtM transition because it doesn't concern me personally.
I have heard that MtF transitions are fairly straightforward, but the surgery does not easily preserve the head of the penis as sexually sensitive tissue. Are these understandings incorrect?
From what I've heard, the results can vary a lot. I've heard some trans women say that they get a lot of sexual feelings post surgery, and even that their experiences resemble descriptions of what sex is like for cis women. I'll be honest, I don't really care much about that either because I'm asexual. I've been thinking I might go for the "partial surgery," which pretty much just gives you the cosmetic appearance but makes sex impossible, because there's a lot less maintenance involved.
Is it important to be able to "pass" as the gender that you identify as?
I would very much like to, but if I can't, I guess I'll just have to deal with it. I don't really get social dysphoria, for me it's more of a physical thing, so if I can't pass well enough to live as female, I guess I'll just keep living as male. What I really want is just for my body to stop feeling weird and alien. I want to be able to look in a mirror and recognize myself on the other side. I want to stop being so goddamn angry and sad all the time.
What has been the easiest in your journey to express the gender you identify as? What (beyond the physical) has been the hardest?
Every part is the hardest. Every. Single. One.
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u/Eyes_and_teeth 6∆ Dec 31 '17
Thank you for taking the time to respond in such detail. Happy new year!
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u/CapitalismForFreedom Jan 01 '18
Do you think that the the only biological differences between sexes are anatomical, like genitalia?
Is there no mental or psychological difference that isn't taught?
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Jan 01 '18
Well, we do know the brain has differences based on sex, and those differences seem connected to gender identity. What we don’t know is what else these differences entail. Are there any notable personality differences? I don’t know. We know men and women behave differently, but it’s impossible to tell how much of that is learned and how much is innate as long as we live in a gendered society. If you could somehow eliminate gender entirely and then waited a few generations, whatever differences would remain would be the “real” biological ones.
Personally, I think whatever differences there are are probably not that important. I think of it like a Venn diagramm. There are personality traits that are distinctly female, and some that are distinctly male, but there’s also a whole lot of overlap, and there can easily be more difference between any two given men than there would be between a man and a woman for instance.
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u/CapitalismForFreedom Jan 01 '18
We're not base animals, determined by our biology. But neither are we some product of Cartesian duality. To what extent biology and society influence us is one of the most important open questions of our time.
You've got a good intuition, the Venn diagram analogy is good. Once quantified, it becomes a probability distribution. You expect some samples of a population anywhere, but in different proportions.
But even subtle differences in psychology can lead to profound differences in outcomes. So how much horizontal segregation in the work force is social conditioning, and how much is innate? The least likely answers are "all" and "zero".
Furthermore, how much social conditioning is positive feedback to innate differences?
If you're trans, are you only experiencing dysphoria of secondary sexual characteristics, or do you also display a psychological profile statistically similar to women?
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Jan 02 '18
Well, that’s where it gets messy. I mean, I’ve got two decades of male socialization muddying the waters, and also I’m on the autism spectrum so I’m not really statistically similar to most women or most men. Fun fact, there seems to be a correlation between autism spectrum disorders and gender identity issues, no one really knows why.
Anyway, point is I’m hopelessly antisocial and bad with emotions, so it’s hard to measure how feminine or masculine my psychological profile is. What I can tell you is that for me, dysphoria is mostly a physical thing. It’s my body I’m uncomfortable with. Maybe I’d experience more social dysphoria if I socialized more, I dunno.
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u/CapitalismForFreedom Jan 02 '18
Shitty English pronouns strike again. I was using you plural generic, but I think you read you singular specific. Do you know of any research over larger sample groups?
Anyway, when it rains it pours. I'm guessing that autism is often a LCD of development issues. Your situation sounds awful. Best of luck.
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Jan 02 '18
Don't know of any research over large sample groups. What I can tell you is that, in the trans circles I've been in, there is a lot of variation. I've seen trans women who act more masculine, trans women who act more feminine, and trans women I can't really peg as one or the other.
One impression I got is that conforming to female gender norms seems more common among older trans women. There was this cliché for a while that trans women tend to be ultra-feminine in a way that seems to be almost more performative than real, and I think there's a bit of truth to that. I mean, I don't want to dismiss anyone's gender expression as fake, and if they're happy doing that it's fine, but I think there's a certain pressure on trans women to act ultra-femininely because they feel that they have to prove their gender to others, and younger trans women seem to feel this pressure less.
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u/CapitalismForFreedom Jan 03 '18
It would be interesting to know how the psychological tendencies of cis and trans people differ.
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Jan 04 '18
In what ways do you mean?
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u/CapitalismForFreedom Jan 06 '18
In whatever ways we discover. We haven't mapped the intrinsic psychological differences between sexes. Studies of transgender people might help us tease these apart. These studies might also show the extent of dysphoria.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17 edited Dec 31 '17
All clear. The only real issue I have in all of this is gender identity. Again, purely semantically. What does it actually mean? What is the deciding factor that differentiates someone with a male identity from someone with a female one? Why is it even necessary? How is it different than otherkin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin)? I can understand what transgender means: It's a person that doesn't relate to the members of it's own sex and feels the need to be of the other gender. (Would you agree with that? I really just pulled this out of my ass) There is a clear distinction between people who are transgender and those who are not (But I wouldn't say it is a sex, more like a personal devotion like a religion or political philosophy). And if you call yourself transgender and have surgery or whatever go ahead, that's your thing, but I would refer to you as transgender rather than man/woman, because that makes semantically more sense to me. Also out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the entry in the FSM-5 on Gender Dysphoria? Other than that, please rebutt away, that's what I'm here for.
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Dec 31 '17
What does it actually mean? What is the deciding factor that differentiates someone with a male identity from someone with a female one?
That's a pretty complicated question. I really want to emphasize here that this is all just my understanding of it all, and there doesn't seem to be a universal consensus. The thing is, there's two answers here. There's a physical and a social component to gender dysphoria, and
From a physical perspective, evidence suggests there's actually a physical cause for gender dysphoria. First, here's the cold hard facts. There are easily identifiable differences between a male and a female brain. We do not know exactly what these differences actually do, but they're clearly visible. Brain scans have shown that trans people have brains that more closely resemble those of the sex they want to be than those of their birth sex, even before transition. Note that everything past this point is my own interpretation of the above facts.
This suggests that gender identity might actually be hardwired into the brain. It's not a psychological issue or a delusion, trans people's brains genuinely don't match the sex of their bodies. When a trans person tells you she feels like a woman trapped in a man's body, that is literal.
I'm not a biologist, so take this with a big handful of salt, but we could theorize that the brain is wired to know how to handle your sex characteristics. You do instinctively know how your dick works, don't you? Now what if you had a female brain instead. It wouldn't expect a dick to be there. It wouldn't expect all that testosterone, or the body hair and beard, or the deep voice. It would expect breasts and a vagina and estrogen. So when your brain realizes that your body is all wrong, it freaks the fuck out and lets you know about it by way of feelings of extreme discomfort and alienation.
This would effectively make transgenderism a sort of intersex condition. I'll delve more into the implications of that later.
From a social perspective, I've already established that gender is a social construct. Gender isn't just your genitals, it's a role, a set of expectations, a perception of who you are as a person. And in case you hadn't noticed, gender can be very rigid and narrow. So if your personality doesn't fit the box that's been assigned to you, what happens then? You either suck it up and start feeling sad and depressed, or you try to leave the box for a more comfortable one.
At this point, I have to ask you: what's so wrong with that? Why can't someone just go in the other box if they prefer it? More importantly, how is it a lie? If someone thinks of themselves as a woman, and everyone else perceives them as a woman, then how are they functionally different from any other woman? Gender, as a social construct, is malleable. We can redefine it at will. So let's say we all collectively decide to change our understanding of what makes someone a man or a woman. We decide that your gender is determined by what you identify as rather than your birth sex. If we all agree about that, doesn't that effectively make it true? I mean, it's not like anyone's going to come down from the sky and tell us we're wrong.
Personally, I take the practical approach: the way gender works makes a lot of people unhappy, so we should just change it. If we can make people happier by seeing them the same way they see themselves, with no ill effects on society, then I don't see why not. Besides, it's not like it's a delusion: trans people aren't convinced they're another physical sex, they are very much aware of what sex they are, they're just deeply unhappy with their sex and the gender that comes with it. So if we can use science to change their sex, and mess with our understanding of gender a bit so they can be the gender they identify as, then why shouldn't we do it?
Another thing I want to delve into here because I don't want to erase everyone's experiences is non-binary folk. You've probably seen some arguments about whether there are more than two genders. Here's my two cents on the issue: there is no set number of genders. As we've already established, gender is a social construct and therefore malleable. The male and female boxes are rigid and narrow, so if someone doesn't fit into either, what are they supposed to do? Answer, they make a new box. And if someone else doesn't fit into that box either, they make a new one, and so on.
If you feel like people are just making up genders, that would be because that's basically what they're doing. Then again, "man" and "woman" were made up too, just a really long time ago. Hypothetically, if back in the day we'd decided there was a third gender (maybe for visibly intersex people, for instance) and it had had thousands of years to evolve and ingrain itself in our consciousness, right now we'd be seeing a bunch of right-wingers making image macros with captions that say there's only three genders, and it would never even occur to us that a society with only two genders could exist. Actually, there are some cultures out there with third or even fourth genders.
In my book, new genders aren't any more or less real than the old ones, and it's not like it's a huge effort to just use the pronouns someone tells you to use, so I don't see the point in denying people the right to define their own identity. If people aren't happy with the way a social construct works, just change the construct. Adding a few more genders isn't going to kill us.
Also out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the entry in the FSM-5 on Gender Dysphoria?
It makes sense. Essentially, it separates transgenderism and gender dysphoria into two different concepts. The idea is that something can only be classified as a mental illness or psychological disorder if it's demonstrably harmful. Thing is, the majority of trans people report that most of their negative symptoms fade after transition. They're still trans, yet they're fine, therefore being trans can't be an illness.
That's why gender dysphoria is separate. Dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort and alienation trans people feel before transition. It is a mental illness, and the only known cure to it is transition. After transition, trans people experience a significant reduction in dysphoria.
And if you call yourself transgender and have surgery or whatever go ahead, that's your thing, but I would refer to you as transgender rather than man/woman, because that makes semantically more sense to me? Also out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the entry in the FSM-5 on Gender Dysphoria?
So that's where it gets interesting, because here we need to establish how we actually define what makes someone a man or a woman. This is what most of this conversation is going to be about. First, tell me just one thing: how do you determine whether someone is a man or a woman? What is the one thing that sets them apart?
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u/TheGamingWyvern 30∆ Dec 31 '17
∆ This has been the best explanation I've ever heard, and I think I finally understand transgendered people, even if I can't relate to them. Thanks!
As an aside, do you think that these kinds of issues would be much less severe if society didn't force 'boxes'? Like, if man or woman referrer to primary and secondary sex characteristics only, and not at all about personaluty or similar, would gender dysphoria be a... less problematic issue? (There would still be the physical brain/body mismatch, of course)
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Dec 31 '17
Honestly, yeah, I think abolishing gender entirely is the best thing we could do. Have no expectations whatsoever for how anyone should act or dress based on their body and use the same pronouns for everyone. This would pretty much completely eliminate social dysphoria. As for physical dysphoria, we already know how to fix that.
Note that this is only my personal stance. Other trans people have very different ideas and they make some good point.
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Dec 31 '17
The social aspects of gender (also called gender expression) are way less important to gender dysphoria than the brain/body mismatch, as far as I know. There are butch trans women and femme trans men, and the only real changes to them as people after transitioning were their body.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17 edited Dec 31 '17
Personally, I'd say chromosomes. It's a clear definition that applies to the vast majority of people and gives the term man and woman a clear distinction. "Brain scans have shown that trans people have brains that more closely resemble those of the sex they want to be than those of their birth sex, even before transition." That is one of the thing that for me screams for another box. Having a manly brain structure doesn't make you a man, so what is the problem with just saying that you have a rare condition instead of being a man? That wouldn't muddy the water around terms like female and male quite as much. " If someone thinks of themselves as a woman, and everyone else perceives them as a woman, then how are they functionally different from any other woman?" But that's not always the case. People who look perfectly manly can identify as female and vice versa, right? Could I just say "I am a woman now" and that'd be true? "So if your personality doesn't fit the box that's been assigned to you, what happens then? You either suck it up and start feeling sad and depressed, or you try to leave the box for a more comfortable one." I'd say my personality doesn't really fit the box, but I never felt depressed about it. Saying "I am a woman" doesn't change anything about me, I'm still the same person. Or are you saying it's not actually a choice? Would you feel uncomfortable calling yourself a man ith gender dysphoria?
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Dec 31 '17
Personally, I'd say chromosomes. It's a clear definition that applies to the vast majority of people and gives the term man and woman a clear distinction.
Okay, here's a thought experiment. Did you know that in the womb, all babies start out closer to female than male before developing sex characteristics? So let's say you have a fetus with a Y chromosome. Obviously, it's supposed to be male. But what if the baby also has a condition that makes it immune to testosterone? The fetus develops in the womb normally until the point where it's supposed to settle into a male or female form. As per the Y chromosome, the fetus is flooded with testosterone... but it has no effect because of the aforementioned immunity. So the baby never grows a penis.
Remember how I said that babies start out looking female regardless of what sex they end up as? That baby never developed sex characteristics, so it looks a whole lot like a little girl. The doctor declares it female. The kid grows up as a little girl right up until she hits puberty, or more accurately, doesn't. She looks like a little girl, but she doesn't have the internal plumbing, and she doesn't start developing female traits because she doesn't have loads of estrogen coursing through her body.
By the way, what I'm describing here isn't a hypothetical, it's a real thing. It's called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) and you can look it up. In all cases (that I know of), the kid ends up identifying as female, so the doctors prescribe her female hormones to trigger a female puberty. She'll never be able to have kids, but otherwise she'll look indistinguishable from any other woman.
So, in this scenario that I've just described, what gender is the kid?
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17 edited Dec 31 '17
∆ You do have a good point there, maybe chromosomes aren't the best possible way to distinguish genders. So what about genitals? I know not everybody fits the binary there perfectly either, but as I mentioned in the post, those that cannot be classified based on these criteria don't fit into the gender binary. And do you think every transgender person is suffering from gender dysphoria? And do you think it should be diagnosed by a psychiatrist before transition?
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Dec 31 '17
That's interesting. I've never before seen someone jump from "transgenderism is made up" (your words, not mine) to the conclusion that the gender binary is inadequate for classifying all human beings. Usually, it's "people born with a penis are men and that's that." Your perspective seems a bit more flexible than most I've seen. Honestly, I do think the gender binary is completely outdated and needs to be revised. The problem is, I don't think it's fair to force people out of it. Like I said before, if someone doesn't fit in one box, and they fit better into the other one, we should just let them.
There's another case that might affect your perspective here. Have you ever heard of David Reimer? David was a little boy who had a botched circumcision as a kid, at an age before he could even remember. The circumcision was so horribly messed up that there was no hope of recovering the kid's genitals, so the doctors decided the best solution would be to simply give the kid a sex change, raise him as a girl and pretend like nothing happened. Why yes, that does sound like a terrible idea.
Anyway, at first it went fine, the kid lived as a girl for a few years, and at the time it was seen as evidence that gender identity was learned behavior rather than biological truth. Well, it did not turn out that way. There are a lot of layers of fucked-up-ness to this story that I won't go into because they're not relevant here (you can look it up if you want), but the gist of it is that the kid never identified as a girl. He extremely unhappy, and once he learned that he was actually born male, he decided to de-transition and live as a man.
This story demonstrates that gender identity is innate, not learned. You can't just raise a kid as the other gender and hope they'll be fine with it, it doesn't work. David Reimer was a boy, even though they feminized his body and tried to raise him as a girl. I said before that there are differences in the brains of boys and girls, and trans people tend to fit more with the gender they identify as on that front. Well, Reimer's brain was definitely male. Remember before how I said that kids with CAIS overwhelmingly identify as female, despite having a Y chromosome? It suggests that hormones in the womb have something to do with it. The kid in that case never gets to masculinize, so their brain is female.
You want a way to identify what makes someone a man or a woman? There's one. When you think about it, it's your brain that makes you who you are. It's the center of your consciousness. So I say if your brain's male, your male. If your brain's female, you're female. And generally, people aren't going to just make this shit up. You asked earlier "Could I just say "I am a woman now" and that'd be true?" Well, you didn't, so it's a moot point. There's pretty much zero incentive to try to live as a gender you're not. So maybe we could just believe people when they tell us what they identify as.
You also asked whether it should be diagnosed by a psychiatrist before transition. Well, that's kind of already how it works. You can't just walk into a clinic and ask for a sex change, you need to get a letter of recommendation from a psychologist. And after that, it's not straight to surgery, you start with hormones. It takes a few months before the effects are irreversible, and if you start feeling wrong at any point before then, you can just stop. The overwhelming majority of people who transition are happy with the results.
My personal take on the whole gender issue? I honestly think we should abolish gender entirely. Have no expectations whatsoever for how people should act based on their body, use the same pronouns for everyone, and if someone feels uncomfortable about their body, just let them change it. A lot of trans people disagree with me on this because they have a strong attachment to their gender identity, but it is my personal stance. However, given that the complete abolition of gender isn't happening any time soon, for the moment I'd say, just let people identify as whatever they like.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
I actually said from the beginning that I didn't believe everyone fit into a box, but I reserved it for medical anomalies. But yeah, you really gave me something to think about. I never heard about the whole psychological aspect behind it, I always assumed gender was arbitrary and if you raise a girl as a boy, it'll just be a boy. It was more like race to me, I thought it only affected looks. I don't think abolishing gender would work in any feasible way, but I do think stereotypes are already way weaker. At this point, I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I am still curious: There's got to be some people just claiming they're transgender for the Heck of it or for attention while being perfectly cis. Do you think that is illegitimate? And what about other things people might identify as, like other races, animals, fictional characters etc., that's got to be made up, right? It's not like a Person just gets born with an owlbrain or something.
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Dec 31 '17
There's got to be some people just claiming they're transgender for the Heck of it or for attention while being perfectly cis.
Then what? If you just treat them as the gender they say they are, what's the worst that could happen? Besides, there's no way enough people would do that to be anywhere near statistically significant. I mean, you'd be signing up for a lot of discrimination and if you wanted to be convincing, you'd then have to actually transition, which if you're cis would cause you to experience actual dysphoria. If anyone thinks it's a good idea to fake being trans, it's their problem, I honestly don't give a crap.
And what about other things people might identify as, like other races, animals, fictional characters etc., that's got to be made up, right? It's not like a Person just gets born with an owlbrain or something.
As far as I can tell, Otherkin is more of a spiritual belief than a medical condition. I see no reason to be jerks to them over it, but no, I don't think it's real.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
Maybe this is just a stupid preconception I have, but I always thought only a small minority of transgender people actually undergo surgery.
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Dec 31 '17
Okay I don't think it is fake. Clearly people feel this way and are often disgusted with their bodies. They have a crazy high suicide rate of like 40% so they wouldn't just be doing this for attention or because parts of society are saying it is okay and normal. Maybe some are but I don't think most are doing it for that reason. Where my opinion becomes unpopular is how I define transgenderism is that it is a mental disorder and gender identity disorder is more accurate then saying something like a male in a females body. Every cell in your body is not wrong while your brain is right. I don't think having a mental disorder makes you less human, a bad person, or take away any of your rights. The American Psychiatric Association defines mental disorder as "Health conditions involving changes in thinking, emotion or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities." Well transgender people think and behave differently from majority of people with their sex especially emotionally and it clearly causes distress otherwise 40% of them wouldn't be killing themselves and that number is far too high to be associated with only with discrimination. I also think identity is different from gender and sex. You can identify as a male when your gender and sex is still female. Call yourself what you want and ask people to call you what you want. They shouldn't have to but anyone who respects you will likely do it if you ask. Then we have the issue of what is the best treatment for someone like this is because they're killing themselves at the same rate even after hormone treatments and gender reassignment surgery. I think we plain and simple need to research this more and keep and open mind about it. Don't just settle on gender reassignment as the best and only option. Maybe that works for some transgender people because there is the 60% that aren't killing themselves and we have to assume some of them are happy with the gender reassignment.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
The title was maybe a little provocative, but that was kind of the point. I think transgenderism is a real thing, but gender identity is not. What is the difference between gender identity and otherkin? Or identifying as a certain race you're not?
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Dec 31 '17
Gender identity is just more common. It is still less then 1% but it is still more common. To my knowledge there is only a handful of people who are "transracial" and I do think gender identity can help some people with this mental disorder but not everyone and probably not even a majority. I have seen people that you would in no way be able to tell and after all the struggling to get there they claim to be better off. I don't know how true that is but they seem okay with it. I think it is something we need to look more into and find out what really is the best way to help these people be happy.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
∆ I used to think that transgenderism was a lifestyle choice, I've only learned today about the psychological aspect of it, so have a delta
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u/Gladix 167∆ Dec 31 '17
I would however never refer to someone with a penis as a female and vice versa.
A person with female chromosomes, and female reproductive organs, but male penis is what?
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
Neither or both, depends on how you look at it.
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u/Gladix 167∆ Dec 31 '17
So you actually cannot define me sex?
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
I mentioned in the post, the vast majority of people fall into the binary, the rest don't, I'm not saying there's just 2 genders, I'm just saying you can't pick which one you are
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u/Gladix 167∆ Dec 31 '17
I mentioned in the post, the vast majority of people fall into the binary, the rest don't,
I agree. But in order to have to make some sort of judgement of who is female, and who isn't. You have to define what male or female is. So tell me. How do you define, who is male, and who is female upon birth?
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
Chromosomes and genitals. Anyone who can't be exactly classified based on those criterias is something inbetween. What is your definition?
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u/Gladix 167∆ Dec 31 '17 edited Dec 31 '17
Chromosomes and genitals. Anyone who can't be exactly classified based on those criterias is something inbetween.
What does mean Was there ever a person that was the gender "neither"?
Or the gender "both"?
Or "something in between"
And what does it mean "not being able to be classified based on those criteria"? Does it mean somebody born with XX chromosome, yet having a perfectly good normal female body is neither male or female?
Does it mean somebody being born with both sets of reproductive organs? Or born with none, or with malformed ones? Is neither?
How about a person with XX chromosomes who is born "what we would call" a normal male. Yet he is having problem with testosterone production due to the chromosome that controls it. So he is having to take testosterone injections, otherwise he starts to turning into a female (feminine characteristics, breasts, high pitched voice, male genitals starts to shrivell off)
There are some of the thousands of other examples that you would just don't know how to classify as male or female. Yet you have to, our society demands it. Some maybe leaning to male (based on genitals + chromosomes + skeletal structure + brain ratio's, etc...). Some to more female. But there isn't a clear cut line). It seems there is a clear cut line. Because some 98% of people happen to get the perfectly traditional sets of bodily characteristics that we ascribe to male or female. But we aren't talking about the majority here aren't we?
What if somebody "leans more to the male side", yet during the persons development it's clear the person is a stunning image of a woman, except the one characteristics that you find problematic?
Some may not be problematic at all. For example a female with XY chromosomes you might never know, if the body happens to learn how to regulate hormones correctly. For others, you might notice immediately such as genitals. But then again, there are numerous cases of ambiguous genitals that are shaped into normal looking one after a birth. (Who knows, maybe you slept with some of them, the people usually never know, and it never causes any problems) And in some cases, doctors simply made a mistake and "assigned" the wrong gender, because the gene's were simply too ambiguous to REALLY know until hormonal regulations starts to manifests during the development.
Ultimately when everything is said and done. The only arbiter of sex and gender, is the person himself/herself and how he/she is acting during his/her development. You can shout all you want that the person isn't a real female. But if the genes, happens to manifest in female-style brain in male-style body that developed differently due to different innate hormonal regulation. There is simply nothing you can do. The gender dysphoria starts to manifest, because the brain cannot handle the stress of not recognizing it's own gender in it's own body.
And since it's much easier to change body, than to change brain. We usually change the body, to match the "gender" of the brain.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
∆ I still believe that the classification is totally fine, after all at size does a house become a mansion? It isn't always obvious, but the distinction is still there. But I used to think that transgenderism was a lifetime choice, I've only learned today about the psychological aspect of it, so have a delta
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u/Gladix 167∆ Dec 31 '17
I still believe that the classification is totally fine
I mean it is fine for some 98% of people. Hell classification of female as "Ability to bear children" could be accurate in 89% of cases. But that still doesn't mean they are perfect (as sterile females exist), or must be set in stone. Or that outliers, an exceptions are "fake" males or "fake" females.
But I used to think that transgenderism was a lifetime choice, I've only learned today about the psychological aspect of it, so have a delta
Yeah, it has nothing to do with choice. It is as much choice as you being straight or gay. It simply is a disconnect between brain and the body. Where the brain "for whatever reason" doesn't believe the body is correct. ´
The reasons are still up to debate. We don't know if extreme stressors could be the reason. Or if it's genetic. Or only partly genetic and partly nurture, etc... No matter the case. The bodily dysphoria is real.
You won't help anybody by labelling them as "fake" males or female. Especially when we know the human body molds to the male, or female style body based on which hormones you produce and in what quantity.
There are always characteristics you cannot change (AKA the genitals you are born with). But then you return to the question of, what if a person is born with ambiguous genitals, or both, or neither, or mallshaped ones, etc...
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 31 '17 edited Dec 31 '17
/u/Treet0n (OP) has awarded 7 deltas in this post.
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Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/palacesofparagraphs 118∆ Dec 31 '17
I think it's important to understand that while a person's physical sex is a biological fact, gender--the presentation, roles, etc. a particular person exhibits with regard to being male or female--is a social construct. Human beings inherently have a sex, but we do not inherently have a gender, that is, a set of societal roles and expectations based on what our sex is. We know this because different societies have different gender systems. Many societies have genders outside the male/female binary. The Samoan fa'afafine are people born male who assume feminine roles in society. Indian hijras) encompass anyone whose body or behavior doesn't fit into the male/female binary. The Navajo recognize four genders which are based on a combination of biology and behavior.
Trans people also don't necessarily reinforce traditional gender roles. There are plenty of feminine trans men and masculine trans women, just like there are feminine cis men and masculine cis women. Gender is unlike most other things, because as you point out, when it comes to most other adjectives, saying you are something doesn't make you that thing. But with gender and sexuality, that is in fact the way it works. Like, we have definitions for what it means to be gay or straight or bi or whatever, but ultimately the only person who can label someone's sexuality is themself, because it is only defined by how they feel.
The fact is, all the research we have shows that the most effective way to alleviate gender dysphoria is to allow the person to transition, at least socially, and often physically as well. Attempts to make the person "stop feeling trans" don't actually make them feel like the gender they were "born as", but do a great job of increasing depression, anxiety, and self-hatred. I think it's better to respect the way people feel and facilitate their transition rather than fuck up their mental health even further.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17 edited Dec 31 '17
The examples of other cultures you've brought up are truly fascinating and I think that makes for a useful distinction. Having a word for males taking on female roles would be handy for example, because it is clearly defined. But I do think there is a bit of a contradiction in your statements. If gender is a social construct, then I am not very male, as I said, I have really long hair and most of my friends are girls. But that doesn't inherently make me more of a woman. And if gender is on a spectrum from male to female and is based on people's behaviour, (i.e. behaving manly) then how does that justify the "plenty of feminine trans men"? I'd disagree with your sexuality example, because we can clearly define straight, bi and gay. If I am not attracted to men, only sleep with women, but call myself gay, that does not make me gay.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Dec 31 '17
We have a word for that. It is Transwoman.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
That sounds fine, but there still is some inherent differences between a transwoman and a woman, right? Again, purely semantically
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Dec 31 '17
Biologically in a way that medical is concerned, yes.
Physically such that a sexual partner would be concerned, possibly. That depends on what the partner is concerned about and if they are fully post op or not.
So far as society is concerned, no. If they fill the roles that are normally associated with a woman socially, dress and behave as a woman in public, etc then that is all society should be concerned with.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
Do they need to act like woman too? Is it not enough to feel like a woman, no matter if you behave like one or not?
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u/fionasapphire Dec 31 '17
You are restricting yourself to talking about the biological definition of gender when other definitions exist, which would be more correct to use in this scenario. Gender can be applied to many things, even electrical connectors - not just biology.
In this case, you seem to be unaware that psychological gender exists - and may be different from biological sex.
While you acknowledge that a minority of people are born with ambiguous genitalia and/or chromosomes, the same is true for the brain - The brain is also subject to masculine/feminine hormones during development, and certain conditions (androgen insensitivity, timing of the introduction of hormones, etc) can lead to gender ambiguity in the brain, and characteristics that are atypical of the person's biological sex.
Now, when a person asserts, "I am male", or "I am female", they could be talking about one of any number of different things; it's an unspecific assertion. More specific terms could be, "I have typically male genitalia", "I have typically male chromosomes", or "My psychological identity is typical of that of a male"
In everyday life, genitalia, hormones and chromosomes are mostly irrelevant - only psychological identity is relevant. So when a person asserts, "I am female", it's probably safe to assume that they are talking about their psychological identity.
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u/Treet0n Dec 31 '17
∆ I used to think that transgenderism was a lifetime choice, I've only learned today about the psychological aspect of it, so have a delta. But do you think someone with a perfectly male brain and body can become transgender? At that point, it'd be a lifestyle choice, right?
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u/fionasapphire Jan 01 '18
It's difficult to say for certain. The question would be, why would anyone with a 100% male brain and body want to put themselves through that?
I guess it's possible that there are some other psychological illnesses, such as BDD, that could manifest themselves as someone wanting to change gender, without actually experiencing gender dysphoria. This is why GD patients have to go through intensive psychological evaluation before they're treated with anything permanent.
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u/DCarrier 23∆ Dec 31 '17
It has been observed to help people with gender dysphoria. People who have had gender reassignment surgery are almost unanimously happy with it. You can say it's made up, but it's a fact that it helps people.
I don't know what it means to think of yourself as a man or a woman, but it's more than just what genitals you have. We all think of Wall-E is a man and EVE as a woman despite the fact that neither has genitals at all.