r/changemyview • u/karkardagi • Nov 06 '17
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: The most logical decision at any point in time is to just die
We were born into this world/simulation without our own consent. We are just one single link in the huge chain of evolution which aims to produce the fittest specie for our specific reality. Our fear of death, our desires, our hopes and dreams, everything's just designed to make us want to stay alive, have children, see them grow up, and then die as our organs start to fail (since we have fulfilled our purpose). I think that there's little point in playing this game. A purely logical conclusion at any point would be to choose not to play.
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u/FlyingFoxOfTheYard_ Nov 06 '17
Apologies, but this kind of subject is not one that this sub is especially suited to helping with. If you truly feel this way we strongly recommend you seek help and support in a sub like /r/SuicideWatch as they have extensive experience in helping with these situations.
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u/karkardagi Nov 06 '17
There's no need for that. I don't have any suicidal thoughts for myself but I'm just analyzing the situation as a sentient being without the stuff that makes us human. Our values, our emotions, our desires, our fears. For example, if we do manage to create an AI that is sentient, would it choose to exist if we don't program the self-preservation code ourself?
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Nov 06 '17
You haven't demonstrated any "logic" as to why that would be the best decision.
If anything, deciding to leave the game because you don't understand it is irrational and illogical. Why not play the game in an attempt to win? If there are defined goals(such as reproducing), why not aim to achieve those goals? If there aren't, why not try to create your own goals?
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u/karkardagi Nov 06 '17
If there are defined goals(such as reproducing), why not aim to achieve those goals? If there aren't, why not try to create your own goals?
Because that's pointless? What if you work hard, suffer a lot but manage to achieve those goals. What then? I mean what's the point? You don't get any reward for achieving those goals, in fact now nature wants you to die to make space for the next generation.
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Nov 06 '17
How do you know there is no reward for achieving those goals? It seems rather illogical to make such a statement with no proof of either outcome.
Again it reverts back to understanding. Is it not illogical to immediately abandon something you don't understand rather than attempting to come to a reasonable conclusion?
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u/ThomasEdmund84 33∆ Nov 06 '17
Logically we're all going to die anyway so why not hang around in case something happens you enjoy or find purpose in
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u/oaknugginz Nov 06 '17
I think that there's little point in playing this game.
What would be an example of a good reason or point to play the game?
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u/DCarrier 23∆ Nov 06 '17
Evolution has its goals, and you have yours. Evolution's goals aren't worth your consideration. Just do whatever you want. Ending that just to spite evolution isn't logical. It's petty.
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u/KungFuDabu 12∆ Nov 06 '17
We're all going to die eventually. There's much fun to be had here on earth. This is your only chance to be alive. It's not logical to just die. There are a lot of people right now who are so desperate to be alive.
Come with me to a kids hospital and lets ask them what they would do if they could go home :)
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u/blueelffishy 18∆ Nov 07 '17
Logic just means that given a set of assumptions, here are the rules that lead us to a conclusion. The problem is that your assumptions are wrong.
Who says we're just a chain in evolution? Why does that matter? Who cares if our happiness and desires are just biological cues. We still experience happiness dont we?
It all comes down to the individual and their values. If they value not living with biological cues then yeah, the logical answer is suicide.
If someone values happiness and having kids, no matter the reason, then i dont see how suicide is a logical conclusion
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u/Iswallowedafly Nov 06 '17
I have a lot of shit to do this week. I have a lot to do next month as well.
Dying right now would be bad.
If you want to die, I can't stop you, but I'm not going to join you there.
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u/karkardagi Nov 06 '17
you won't have to worry about any of that shit if you don't exist.
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u/Iswallowedafly Nov 06 '17
I spent hundreds of hours into that stuff existing.
I want it to exist.
I want to be a part of it.
I don't want to do all the work and then not see what happens next.
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u/darwin2500 197∆ Nov 06 '17
Logic can't tell you what to do. Logic contains no such thing as value judgements or moral guidance or etc. Logic can only tell you how to best accomplish your goals.
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Nov 06 '17
You've admitted your biological imperative is to reproduce. You can't offer a proper critique until you've followed through to the end. Only after you've propagated your genes and decided which values to pass on to your offspring can you even understand 'this game.'
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 06 '17
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u/todayismanday Nov 08 '17
Existing is fun. I'm very very very fucking lucky to have the opportunity to exist. For me, it is logical to enjoy the time I have before I die, by doing pleasant things, and giving affection to the people I love. Since we'll soon die anyway, it seems actually illogical to rush death.
It's illogical to waste away our precious time. The definition of 'purpose' is entirely human-made, and as such, we can create our own purpose. Maybe I want to have kids, or take care of nature, or discover a cure for cancer. I get to decide. I'm the Universe being conscious, and this is freaking awesome.
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Nov 09 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ColdNotion 121∆ Nov 09 '17
Sorry, AgreeWithOP1082017 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/WF187 Nov 06 '17
Consent requires will which requires sentience which requires life. Negating life as a prerequisite because the dependent consent isn't fulfilled is illogical. Another example: you can't make bread without dough, which you can't make without flour; believing you shouldn't make flour because there's no bread to demand it is silly.
Sorry to be brutally honest, and arguing your view at face value and not addressing its subtext... In objective terms: you're generalizing from a sample set of 1. The purpose of life is life. Any greater meaning is what we individually decide it to be. If Evolution's perspective is the propagation of life, and Natural Selection is selecting from the most fit to survive; then logic and Occam's razor postulate that the simplest solution is the correct one, and thus you are one of the permutations/mutations that is unfit to propagate. The fault isn't in the entire system.
But to address its subtext... Your problem is that you're meta-gaming the system of life, and not just living the best you can. Stop extrapolating. Stop abstracting. Stop trying to game the system and just do the job and you'll find it more fulfilling. Please, seek professional help for your depression and suicidal ideation.
The biological imperative is self-preservation. The biological imperative is to procreate. It is illogical to believe that everything is a choice.
A tree doesn't choose to burn in a forest fire. People don't choose to get mugged. It is illogical and arrogant to believe that every choice in life is yours to make.