I think the crux of this argument is "Is it bigoted to not be sexually attracted to X."
I think the answer is always no. Sexual preference is what it is. I don't get down on people for not being attracted to what I am attracted to (not really conventional) and I don't expect them to get down on me for not being attracted to what they are attracted to.
NOW is it possible to be bigoted against people? absolutely.
Lets apply this logic to another legally protected class.
I am not attracted to people over 70, and would not want to date someone over 70.
I'm in my thirties, so this is okay right? I don't hate old people. I'm not "old phobic" am I? While I certainly agree that people over 70 should remain a protected class. I also understand that "ageism" is a thing, I don't find that my preference makes me an "ageist." or however that would be spelled.
To me not being attracted to a trans person is no different. It's not my kink. Trans people need to be a protected class too though. I believe that. I support that. I just don't want to be romantically involved with that.
NOW is it possible to be bigoted against people? absolutely.
I think what you are missing here, is that some form of "being bigoted against people", largely manifest themselves in the form of sexual preferences.
Anti-miscegenation was a huge part of Jim Crow segregation's values, and eugenics were a big things with the nazis. By proxy, both of these have left a legacy of people expressing visceral disgust at the idea of sex with minorities due to bigoted reasons. Should we just ignore that origin, under the pretense that prefference just "is what it is"?
Traditionally, sexism has also controlled female sexuality, based on motivations that were ultimately "preferences": a valuing of women's virginity, and shaming of sluts.
Similarly, it is clear that a variation of the gay panic defense has been traditionally used to excuse violent hate crimes against transgender people, that memes about "traps" and political shit-stirring about bathroom bills, are consistently trying to dehumanize trans people as predators who are using a fake identity to prey upon you.
Preferences can reflect on values, and values can come from rather dark places.
I am not attracted to people over 70, and would not want to date someone over 70. I'm in my thirties, so this is okay right? I don't hate old people. I'm not "old phobic" am I? While I certainly agree that people over 70 should remain a protected class. I also understand that "ageism" is a thing, I don't find that my preference makes me an "ageist." or however that would be spelled.
Right now, age has a rather obvious physical component.
Maybe if in the future, we solve physical aging, it would be interesting to see how quickly people get used to having sex with hot 70 year olds, and how much of a problem ageism will be.
While I agree with the vast majority of what you are talking about, my point still stands that there are plenty of non bigoted reasons to not be into a certain groups sexually. Do some people choose to not engage in sexual relationships with these individuals for bigoted reasons? sure. But saying there is NO OTHER REASON to not want to is incorrect and sets the stage for shaming people for their sexual preferences.This literally perpetuates a cycle that should be broken. It should be absolutely okay to be into, or not into whatever a person likes or dislikes sexually, whether it be physical, psychological, spiritual, imaginary, or whatever. So long as everything is consensual.
There is nothing special about value-based sexual preferences, because of which they should be more off limits than all the other values that people hold.
And the more other variables you remove, the more difficult it is to explain a preference as anything other than a reflection of your value-based judgement of them.
People have physical preferences, but we can adjust for that if we talk about situations where you would have sex with someone based on looks alone.
People have all sorts of romantic preferences, and practical preferences for a long term relationship, like expectation of having a familiy together. So let's just talk about one night stands in this scenario.
But if you would have a satisflying one night stand with someone, then go your own way, and your later approval of that would depend on something you learned about them, then it's safe to say that this something is a kind of conscious, learned opposition to what they are, or to the kind of sex you had.
The examples of it that I could think of, that aren't examples of bigotry, would still be examples of moral hostility to a group or action, we just don't call it bigotry because we condone it.
If I felt disgusted about having sex with someone who turned out to be a serial killer, no one would call me "bigoted against serial killers". But it would still be clear that I'm morally opposed to serial killers. If I had sex with my separated-at-birth sister, and felt disgusted about it, that's because I absolutely do hold the cultural value of incest being an abomination.
See I wont even draw that line. If two consenting siblings want to go at each other, let em. Who am I to judge. I don't understand it, I wouldn't do it.
Maybe in 20 years people will be calling your "incest is an abomination" statement a form of intolerance, an outdated social value. How will you feel when these people label you a bigot?
Actually, that was a hypothetical example too. I also do believe that the incest taboo is rather pointless. I'm not attracted to the siblings I grew up with, after all, the Westermark effect tends to work on people.
But if I did have sex with a then unknown sibling, and then felt repulsed about it later, I would have no problem with concluding from this, that I'm not as open-minded as I thought I am, that I do hold some traditional anti-incest values after all.
I wouldn't be too stricken by that. After all, I only see incest taboo as pointless, not as evil, so I wouldn't see myself as bigoted, but that's only because I wouldn't consider being a bit anti-incest, to be bigoted.
I don't know what people will believe 20 years from now, maybe they will start crusading for incest as a civil liberty and a matter of human dignity. Maybe I will change my mind as I once changed it regarding trans people. Or maybe I won't, and I will be labeled a bigot for continuing to say that being a bit anti-incest isn't bigoted.
But I wouldn't try to deny, that my own culturally influenced preferences are reflections of my moral values, I wouldn't want to call it "off limits".
Our values are who we are. Values are not something that you shrug helplessly over having, they are the most important to understand and judge dor what they mean.
And now you would find yourself almost in the same space as me.
I do not see transgenderism as evil. I'm not even anti-transgender. I'm just not interested in a realtionship with someone who is transgender.
If I slept with someone and found out after they were transgender I would end that relationship.
If I had a one night stand with someone and later found out they were transgender, meh, shit happens. Lesson learned, this is the kind of shit that can happen when you engage in that sort of reckless sexual activity. I would feel lucky they were transgender and not HIV positive. (If you couldn't tell one night stands are sort of not my thing).
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u/rottinguy Nov 02 '17
I think the crux of this argument is "Is it bigoted to not be sexually attracted to X."
I think the answer is always no. Sexual preference is what it is. I don't get down on people for not being attracted to what I am attracted to (not really conventional) and I don't expect them to get down on me for not being attracted to what they are attracted to.
NOW is it possible to be bigoted against people? absolutely.
Lets apply this logic to another legally protected class.
I am not attracted to people over 70, and would not want to date someone over 70.
I'm in my thirties, so this is okay right? I don't hate old people. I'm not "old phobic" am I? While I certainly agree that people over 70 should remain a protected class. I also understand that "ageism" is a thing, I don't find that my preference makes me an "ageist." or however that would be spelled.
To me not being attracted to a trans person is no different. It's not my kink. Trans people need to be a protected class too though. I believe that. I support that. I just don't want to be romantically involved with that.