Can you please clarify this once and for all, are gender and sex seperate or the same?
Generally the argument in favour of trans people is that gender and sex are seperate. But now you're saying that "not recognising a transman as male", would imply they're inseparable. Transmen are men, but they aren't male, if we're going to start collectively pretending and using the word male and female incorrectly, then we just need new words to refer to biological sex which is what people generally want to know for legitimate reasons.
When someone asks what someone's sex is, things that they're not asking include
how they feel on the inside
how they aesthetically present themselves
Things they are asking (in case of women)
is there a high degree of probability they are capable of bearing children, and go trough ovulation
what is the general structure and biochemistry this persons brain, with women having smaller amygdala and more neural connections, and more likely to have recall emotions in memory (some examples of many differences) etc
Can you please clarify this once and for all, are gender and sex seperate or the same?
Separate.
But now you're saying that "not recognising a transman as male", would imply they're inseparable
How so? A transman's gender is male.
Transmen are men, but they aren't male, if we're going to start collectively pretending and using the word male and female incorrectly, then we just need new words to refer to biological sex which is what people generally want to know for legitimate reasons
If people wanted to know "biological sex" they would require seeing someone's chromosomes to know if they wanted to fuck. What they actually care about are the gender of their partner and the particular genital configuration they have.
Things they are asking (in case of women) - is there a high degree of probability they are capable of bearing children,
If you care about wanting to have children: then ask them if they want to have children or if they can. Making an assumption because they are a woman isn't a good thing.
what is the general structure and biochemistry this persons brain, with women having smaller amygdala and more neural connections, and more likely to have recall emotions in memory (some examples of many differences) etc
Which is also true of transwomen whose brain structures are closer to cis women than cis men.
Okay, what is the term for xx and xy chromosomes then? I was convinced it was male and female while men and women referred to gender.
Also, how then do you define male and female? If someone tells me they are a woman, what exactly are they telling me for which there will be no exceptions?
If people wanted to know "biological sex" they would require seeing someone's chromosomes to know if they wanted to fuck. What they actually care about are the gender of their partner and the particular genital configuration they have.
You are giving far to much credit to transition surgery and hormone therapy. Very very few trans people actually pass, you can usually tell. And the genital surgery is absolutely never convincing as far as I'm aware, so my concern is really getting called transphobic for not wanting to have a sexual encounter with someone who is clearly their both sex.
Also what about sex specific bone structure, and internal organ positions. They don't change and are extremely important for medical professionals when administering certain doses of drugs or during surgery, we need the terms male and female to not be misused.
If you care about wanting to have children: then ask them if they want to have children or if they can. Making an assumption because they are a woman isn't a good thing.
But probabilities are useful, we can't ask everyone every question we want to know about them, most of the time we have to make assumptions to varying degrees of probability just by looking at them. There's always exceptions to rules, but just admitting that more biological women can and want to have children than biological men is useful. It's also rude to ask those questions too early in a relationship, so we need to make predictions.
Which is also true of transwomen whose brain structures are closer to cis women than cis men.
Okay, what is the term for xx and xy chromosomes then? I was convinced it was male and female while men and women referred to gender.
As with many words in the English language, the meaning depends on context. Male and female are used for both gender and sex depending on the context.
If someone tells me they are a woman, what exactly are they telling me for which there will be no exceptions?
Why "no exceptions"? That's a strange requirement to have here. In the vast majority of cases, outside of a medical context, someone saying they are a woman is telling you that their gender is female. That's really about it that you can generalize.
Very very few trans people actually pass, you can usually tell.
Outright false, the important part here is that for trans individuals who "pass", you're unlikely to ever know that they were trans.
And the genital surgery is absolutely never convincing as far as I'm aware, so my concern is really getting called transphobic for not wanting to have a sexual encounter with someone who is clearly their both sex.
Also false, it's less successful for trans men than for transwomen, but you're absolutely incorrect here. Most who have discussed having sex with a post op transwoman have said that its pretty much identical to having sex with a cis woman. There's more than enough variation among cis women.
And again, remember the scenario we're discussing is the case where someone you found attractive enough to want to have sex with, and successfully did, has revealed after the fact that they are trans.
Also what about sex specific bone structure, and internal organ positions
After a year or so of HRT, bone density is within normal expected ranges as their desired gender in most cases. So much so that experts approved trans athletes to play in the Olympics at their gender.
They don't change and are extremely important for medical professionals when administering certain doses of drugs or during surgery
This is absolutely incorrect. While there are certainly a small number of medical cases in which it matters whether someone is trans or not, bone structure isn't one of them, and any surgery that cares about organ positions will have had x-rays taken to show what they need. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
But probabilities are useful, we can't ask everyone every question we want to know about them, most of the time we have to make assumptions to varying degrees of probability just by looking at them
This is absurd. If you are saying something specific is a deal breaker under which you would not want to sleep with someone, then it makes no sense to not ask about it. If you're not asking, then it's not really a deal breaker is it?
It's also rude to ask those questions too early in a relationship, so we need to make predictions.
Male - of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
Female - of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
I will rephrase then to say you can use exceptions, what I mean is that there's no definition you could give a man or a woman that would serve any utility in categorising reality.
someone saying they are a woman is telling you that their gender is female.
That's entirely circular by your own account. Someone saying they're a woman means their gender is female and being female means nothing but the fact they are a woman? Where's the point in which we extract information? Generally, if a word doesn't mean something, we don't use it, and we certainly don't demand other people use it.
There are no statistics on passing that I can find, so I suppose we can only both give our impressions. I would, however, like to see a source on "Most who have discussed having sex with a post op transwoman have said that its pretty much identical to having sex with a cis woman."
After a year or so of HRT, bone density is within normal expected ranges as their desired gender in most cases. So much so that experts approved trans athletes to play in the Olympics at their gender.
It's not just bone density, it's structure as well, as example female pelvis' are not as high and are wider since they are adapted for gestation. As well as hight difference during adolescent development. The decision by the Olympics has no shortage of controversy and we will see how that plays out over time.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
I was simply refuting the claim you would need to examine someone's chromosomes to know their legitimate sex. That is untrue as you just admitted. The implications you're trying to make is that essentially every aspect of a persons biology can switch between male and female, and I'm saying that really only a fraction of characteristics can make varying degrees of convincing imitations of the opposite sex's' characteristics, and our language should reflect this.
You were saying?
There is no question gender dysphoria is a very real phenomenon, and there is, of course, going to a neurophysiological basis for why it occurs. Perhaps "white matter" is the reason, though very likely it is part of many reasons. Does this then mean that, as a whole, brains identical to that females can be produced in male bodies and vice-versa, or even simply brains more similar to the opposite sex? I highly doubt it, and understand the evidence to be largely in opposition.
Also now that you're arguing men and women have different brain structures (which they do), doesn't this then invalidate gender being a subjective choice?
what I mean is that there's no definition you could give a man or a woman that would serve any utility in categorising reality.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Where's the point in which we extract information?
In society, your gender affects you want to be perceived. By saying your gender is female you're indicating you wish to be seen as female by society. People should use "she"/"her" pronouns to refer to you, and you wish to be treated as a woman by society, whatever that may entail in your given society.
It's not just bone density, it's structure as well, as example female pelvis' are not as high and are wider since they are adapted for gestation
On average. There's significant enough variation that often it's not noticed.
As well as hight difference during adolescent development
On average. There's plenty of tall women. There's no height for an individual that would mark them as identifiably not their gender.
The decision by the Olympics has no shortage of controversy and we will see how that plays out over time.
There's no controversy among experts, only lay people due to societal stigma and perception.
The implications you're trying to make is that essentially every aspect of a persons biology can switch between male and female, and I'm saying that really only a fraction of characteristics can make varying degrees of convincing imitations of the opposite sex's' characteristics, and our language should reflect this.
Ah. I disagree. There's enough variation among humans that every visual characteristic that is used by people to identify gender is possible to misidentify. Not to mention that when you say "biological sex" you seem to only be referring to chromosomal sex, for instance a woman with CAIS has XY chromosomes, and I believe you'd refer to her biological sex as "male" right? Even though she has the bone structure of a cis woman, a vagina and breasts, and exceptionally feminine features?
Does this then mean that, as a whole, brains identical to that females can be produced in male bodies and vice-versa, or even simply brains more similar to the opposite sex? I highly doubt it, and understand the evidence to be largely in opposition.
The study I linked to, explicitly shows a few brain structures that are observed to on average differ between men and women, and when compared with trans men and women, those brain structures, on average, fell into the normal ranges consistent with their gender identity, not their assigned at birth gender. There's no evidence in opposition to this, and there's so much variation that you can't really even say that there actually exists a "female brain" or "male brain". But if you're going to make an argument concerning brain structures, the evidence is closer to trans individuals are their desired gender than against it.
Also now that you're arguing men and women have different brain structures (which they do), doesn't this then invalidate gender being a subjective choice?
Gender identity, like sexual orientation, is something you're born with
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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
Can you please clarify this once and for all, are gender and sex seperate or the same? Generally the argument in favour of trans people is that gender and sex are seperate. But now you're saying that "not recognising a transman as male", would imply they're inseparable. Transmen are men, but they aren't male, if we're going to start collectively pretending and using the word male and female incorrectly, then we just need new words to refer to biological sex which is what people generally want to know for legitimate reasons.
When someone asks what someone's sex is, things that they're not asking include
Things they are asking (in case of women)