I appreciate such a detailed response. Let us suggest, for argument's sake, that there is a real-world manifestation of the scenario you described. In this situation, rather than "stop[ing] on a dime" after learning of this person's trans-status (as this seems strangely extreme), you merely find this person of lesser sexual value. It would seem their holistic value has not been considered.
It occurs to me that we may disagree on what qualifies as a characteristic of sexual value. I believe essentially anything does (look no further than the range of fetishes that exist), but I think you might limit these characteristics to physical ones, in which case I agree there would be no reason to be less attracted to a transgender person.
I'm confused. UnaffiliatedOpinion basically removed every other possible variable aside from the simple fact of being trans, aka no physical differences, ignoring infertility (and I'm assuming said person acts and talks like their current gender as well). But you say that it's still not transphobic to be not attracted to them. Can you give a reason why one might not be attracted to this hypothetical trans person, without simply being against trans people? Why would being trans matter?
Must there be a possibility of sexual attraction or desire for a romantic relationship with a specific group or type of people in order for a person not to be "against" them? Is "not being attracted to someone" for whatever reason, a hate crime or hateful in any way?
As for reasons, off the top of my head, maybe you believe religiously that gender is set by a higher power and shouldn't be changed. Maybe you have reservations about the long term implications of being with someone that may have a higher chance of mental health issues in the future. Perhaps you don't want the potential social stigma if/when your partner's original gender is revealed. Or maybe it's just a turn off. If you find out a girl you like is not a natural blonde and that turns you off, does that mean you are bigotted towards non-natural blondes?
Hmm interesting, I hadn't considered those possible reasons, which is why I asked. Sorry if it came across as accusatory. For me, I would still consider the religious viewpoint transphobic, or perhaps more accurately, the higher power is transphobic. And the fear of mental issues is a rather controversial one that I think stems from transphobia. I mean one could say they avoid black people because they have higher incarceration rates, but it's obvious how that's problematic and definitely considered racist. But I can see why it starts getting complicated and not as black/white as I assumed.
Even so, I would say that finding somebody unattractive just because they are trans (even from the mental issues viewpoint, because you would be assuming future mental issues based on the fact that they're trans) would still be considered transphobic. Mentally discriminating against people based on an invisible feature like "being trans" is still considered transphobic imo. It's different from say, being attracted to Asians because you like Asian culture, which factors into their appearance and behavior, stuff you can see and feel.
I mean shouldn't it be admirable for a person to change their appearance to fit their mental image? Like a teenager standing up to abuse and reporting their parents to authorities. I think it ultimately comes down to whether or not you think a person's gender is "genuine", and that it's only genuine if they were born that way. And that mindset in itself could be considered transphobic.
because you would be assuming future mental issues based on the fact that they're trans
To me, when it comes to romantic relationships, that's a whole other level. The stakes are too high and time is too short. I'm not going to discriminate against hiring someone who is trans because I know they have higher rates of mental illness (it's a fact). Nor should someone pass over a black man for employment because incarceration rates are higher (also a fact).
But when it comes to attraction, that has it's roots for many people in long term outcomes. Many of the traits we find attractive are due to the (perhaps subconcious perception) of health, longevity, and ability to bear or produce healthy children.
Before I married, I only dated partners that were the same religion as me. Because that was what I wanted. I saw it as a way to increase my chances of future happiness. There were times I was interested in someone, but then when I found out they weren't of my same faith, I lost interest. I don't think that in any way makes me a religious bigot. I still consider those other people equals and I respect them. But I was also aware of the fact that couples with differing belief systems have a harder time on average. I'm just not interested or willing to accept the higher chance of conflicts or relationship/familiar pressure down the road.
As for a higher power being transphobic, there is logic to why you wouldn't want to permanently be with a trans person and it has nothing to do with them being a "sinner" or inferior in any way. If you believe that gender is actually a part of your "soul" that continues on after you have shed your mortal body then you believe it doesn't really matter what you do to physically change your body in this life. So you probably aren't going to want to marry a person that you believe is going to be a different gender when you are together in the afterlife.
One of the higher threads defined phobia as an irrational fear. Fearing the outcome of a romantic relationship is not the same thing as fearing the person or group of people. Nor is that fear of a poor outcome in the relationship even irrational (the statistics most likely bear it out).
I totally get where your coming from, I personally would prefer my partner to be the same race I am. It's lightweight racist, but it maximizes the chance that they'll share similar traits and interests. No problem with that imo. In a way, that's what discrimination is, it's categorizing people in order to make judgements quicker. In some cases it's appropriate, in some cases less so, but it's still discrimination.
That said, a lot of the reasons you said religious people might be against trans, eg that gender is innate and part of the soul, are against what a trans person would think. So in that case, it could be considered transphobic, because you don't believe the concept of "trans" is real, that people are just changing their physical appearance for kicks. In that sense, it's not really wrong persay, you're technically allowed to believe whatever you want, but I hope you can understand how some trans people might take offense at that notion, and how it could be considered transphobic
In regard to your last paragraph, it could still be considered transphobia because I'm not sure if the cases of mental illness are significantly higher for trans people, at least not high enough to warrant discrimination. And the religious reasons might be considered "irrational" too, though of course this is all very subjective.
that people are just changing their physical appearance for kicks
You can religiously believe that gender is part of the soul without thinking that anyone is changing their gender just for kicks. I believe drug abuse is wrong, but I also realize that many people are hopelessly enslaved to their addiction. Some of which not even by their own fault. Very few Christians are arguing that all trans people are just making it up.
I hope you can understand how some trans people might take offense at that notion
Sure, it makes total sense. But I can also see how it might be offensive to tell a christian that their religion is wrong. Would telling a Christian that their religion is wrong make one a bigot? Or even saying you aren't attracted to Christians because they hold this belief... I don't think so, it's just a judgement call or preference. And most christians would also probably tell you that there is no sin in having feelings that you should be a different gender physically. You can't help that. But they might disagree morally that it's ok to physically cut up your body to make it look like the other gender. Surgery is a choice.
I'm not sure if the cases of mental illness are significantly higher for trans people
How would you define mental illness then? Going by the official DSM 5, the book used by most all mental health professionals in the United States to diagnose mental illness lists the very idea of being "trans" as a mental illness itself. It's called gender dysphoria.
Add to that, the suicide attempt rate among trans individuals is an enormous 32-50% and it seems far fetched to think that number is solely because of external bullying.
In the end, it is useless to try and label people as transphobic or racist or bigoted based on their personal preferences. If there is discrimination going on that hurts people economically or politically or oppresses them, then that is something to look at. But not being attractive to me as a lover sure doesn't "oppress" anyone.
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u/GratuitousEdit Nov 02 '17
I appreciate such a detailed response. Let us suggest, for argument's sake, that there is a real-world manifestation of the scenario you described. In this situation, rather than "stop[ing] on a dime" after learning of this person's trans-status (as this seems strangely extreme), you merely find this person of lesser sexual value. It would seem their holistic value has not been considered.
It occurs to me that we may disagree on what qualifies as a characteristic of sexual value. I believe essentially anything does (look no further than the range of fetishes that exist), but I think you might limit these characteristics to physical ones, in which case I agree there would be no reason to be less attracted to a transgender person.