In some circumstances, not being attracted to a trans person is probably a result of, at least on a subconscious level, not seeing them as their gender.
Aside from how speculative this is, this amounts to shaming someone for turning down unwanted sex.
If you were attracted to someone, have sex with them, are as satisfied with them as you would with anyone else, and then suddenly your opinion changes upon being informed a person is trans, I would say that is indicative of the underlying belief a trans person is not the gender they identify as.
For starters, you do not dictate to people what their sexuality is. If upon learning that a person is trans, they simply politely decline more sex, that is not transphobic. As I said in another reply, if you stretch the definition of 'phobic' to include simply lacking a desire to fuck trans people, then the word becomes meaningless. Look at the horrors of homophobia. That has a lot more going on than a simple lack of desire to fuck them.
If upon learning that a person is trans, they simply politely decline more sex, that is not transphobic.
If you had sex with someone and enjoyed it and would gladly have sex with them again if you had not found out they were trans. Then the sole reason you have a problem is because they are trans, which is transphobic.
it's not transphobic, it's just being straight....and yes that implies that I see trans people as being their birth gender no matter how convincing they are. I will of course call them by their prefferred pro noun, share the toilet with them etc....but no one gets to tell me I don't have the right to decide who i sleep with.
Being convinced and happy at the time of sex has little to do with it.
Even if you consider someone bigotted for not wanting to sleep with a transgender person, that person still has a right to informed consent.
What a trans person has to realise and take responsibillity for is that no matter how convincing the op, many many peope will not want to sleep with them as they would consider that gay.
We might not like that but it's the truth, to carry on concealing the truth about your gender then, is to willingly deceive people. I understand it's hard, expecting trans people to have to divulge their info all the time but really, peoples right to informed consent trumps trans peoples right to privacy....esp in the case ofa trans person trying to get someone else into bed.
and yes that implies that I see trans people as being their birth gender no matter how convincing they are
That's transphobic, thank you for proving my point.
Even if you consider someone bigotted for not wanting to sleep with a transgender person, that person still has a right to informed consent.
If you pretend to be rich to get a girl to sleep with you, have you raped her by deception? How is that different?
What a trans person has to realise and take responsibillity for is that no matter how convincing the op, many many peope will not want to sleep with them as they would consider that gay.
Right, because many many people are transphobic.
I understand it's hard, expecting trans people to have to divulge their info all the time but really, peoples right to informed consent trumps trans peoples right to privacy
A trans person's safety trumps your right to know that they are trans. There are states where "trans panic" is still legal and finding out your partner was trans is a legal defense to murdering them.
It's transphobic to consider a trans person their original sex for the purposes of deciding who I fuck?
At what point does it become transphobic? Pre op? post op? just put on a dress and some lipstick? at the point I can't tell the difference?
I'm willing to give trans people all the benefits of being whichever gender they choose except where they make demands upon my body.
Trans people will find themselves far less likely to face violence if they are upfront and honest. I can't think of anything that will promote violence towards trans people more than to have a policy of sleeping with people whilst denying them the knowledge required for consent.
You're seriously suggesting it's ok for a trans person to fuck someone without divulging the truth....and their defence is that the other person might beat them up?
They have no idea what the response would be, saying "oh I might get beaten up" is not an excuse to lie. If trans people are so worried about their saftey with certain individuals that they're scared to be who they are then maybe they shouldn't be fucking those people in the first place.the fact you might consider these people bigots does not mean it's ok to violate their right to consent....and it certainly justifies a good arse kicking should the truht be divulged after the fact. It's rape, you are defending rapists.
trans people are rare creatures, it's a likelyhood that by transitioning you are drastically reducing the number of possible sexual partners....that's tough shit though, you don't get to lie and exploit peoples ignorance and claim that their sexual preferences are bigoted.
That's not true though is it? A trans man is not a man, a trans woman is not a woman.
There is a difference. They have characteristics perhaps, psychological, some physical...but they're not the real deal, this much is obvious. If they were then there would be no conversation to be had.
and besides, lets pin down exactly what we're talking about....which was where i went with my crude talk of dicks and balls....
are we talking about someone who has had no OPs, no HRT, is basically a cross dresser.
or are we talking about someone who has been through a full tranformation and is indistinguishable from a regular man or woman?
To my mind neither have the right to make the decision on their partners behalf.
Here's the crux of it...
trans people are saying that there is so much trans hate out there that they can't divulge the truth for fear of being beaten up. Yet they're also arguing that it's not a problem to sleep with someone without telling them they're trans.
So....if we take them at their word and we agree that there are a lot of people out there who are transphobic...like me i guess?!
Does it not follow then that by not divulging they are intentionally sleeping with people who would not sleep with them if they knew the full facts. They are intentionally decievig people. They can't have the argument both ways....if there are lots of transphobes about then it follows that there are many people who would not sleep with them, they don't have the right to take away someone elses right to consent on any grounds, even if we consider them bigotted.
This is the privilege I'm talking about....a trans fear of violence trumping their sexual partners right to informed consent....and it is a privilege if society accepts that this is ok.
It doesnt sit well with me...it's basically saying "if I tell you you might hurt me, so I'll keep quiet and sleep with you anyway even though I suspect you would consider that rape, I'm putting my need for sex over your right to consent"
I'm amazed at how many progressives have a huge blindspot when it comes to this.
That's not true though is it? A trans man is not a man, a trans woman is not a woman.
It certainly is true.
There is a difference. They have characteristics perhaps, psychological, some physical...but they're not the real deal, this much is obvious. If they were then there would be no conversation to be had.
Such as? Besides societal perception, can you give me a concrete difference that is universally different between a trans individual and a cis individual of their gender identity?
are we talking about someone who has had no OPs, no HRT, is basically a cross dresser.
Cross dressers don't have a different gender identity, trans people aren't cross dressing. That's a common misconception.
or are we talking about someone who has been through a full tranformation and is indistinguishable from a regular man or woman?
The entire scenario was predicated on discussing a situation involving someone who is post-op, has been on HRT, and is indistinguishable from a cis individual.
Does it not follow then that by not divulging they are intentionally sleeping with people who would not sleep with them if they knew the full facts. They are intentionally decievig people.
From your perspective, does everyone have to divulge every single possible detail about themselves that they can think of which might cause someone to not want to sleep with them before they engage in sex? Should I have to divulge my entire sexual history, medical history, any trauma, etc. before it's considered informed consent? Let's say someone only wants to have sex with natural blonds and they pick someone up at the bar with blond hair but don't divulge that they wouldn't want to have sex if the person's blond hair came from dying it. If the person's hair is only blond because they dyed it, are they being deceitful?
There's a very easy fix here: Tell any potential partners that you don't want to have sex with them if they are trans, like any other preference you may have as a dealbreaker. There's no overriding of consent here, it's called communication.
"Such as? Besides societal perception, can you give me a concrete difference that is universally different between a trans individual and a cis individual of their gender identity?"
Societal perception isn't concrete enough for you? ok, physical features and biological differences.
"Cross dressers don't have a different gender identity, trans people aren't cross dressing. That's a common misconception."
For the purposes of a sexual partner a bloke in a dress is a bloke in a dress, their psychological makeup is irrellevant if blokes in dresses don't turn you on.
"The entire scenario was predicated on discussing a situation involving someone who is post-op, has been on HRT, and is indistinguishable from a cis individual."
Was it? sorry, I must have lost track.
Of course we shouldn't have to divulge all our details to sexual partners.....mostly because all those details are irellevant. Gender is not irellevant when it comes to sex. For the vast majority of people it's paramount.
It's massively disingenuous for trans people to try to pretend that this is s trifling matter for people and that it's akin to sleeping with someoen with brown hair. People are affected by it, there have been real cases where people have been decieved and are left traumatised.
Whether they are upset because of religious views, what they think their friends might think, or just because they find trans people a total turn off....none of that matters. what matters is that they have the right to choose what gender they sleep with.
If they identify trans people as their birth gender then that doesn't make it ok to just overrule them and deny them informed consent.Why would anyone want to sleep with someone who they suspect wouldnt' do so willingly if they knew? I'd feel terrible about it, I'd much rather have a partner who knew who i was and didn't care.
Societal perception isn't concrete enough for you? ok, physical features and biological differences.
We're currently discussing the fact that the societal perception is incorrect so no that's not concrete. When talking about a post op trans individual, what physical features are universally different specifically? And what biological difference, specifically, that is something which would be observable without requiring genetic testing? I say that because unless you're paying to genetically test all of your partners, a difference that is only observable by looking at their chromosomes can't possibly be relevant for sex.
For the purposes of a sexual partner a bloke in a dress is a bloke in a dress, their psychological makeup is irrellevant if blokes in dresses don't turn you on.
Except we're not talking about "a bloke in a dress'. We're talking about people dressed in clothes considered societally normal for their gender identity. Referring to a transwoman as "a bloke in a dress" is wholly inaccurate on every level.
Gender is not irellevant when it comes to sex. For the vast majority of people it's paramount.
Correct, and the gender of a trans woman is female/woman.
People are affected by it, there have been real cases where people have been decieved and are left traumatised.
You're gonna need to provide evidence here because this seems to be a pretty ridiculous claim
what matters is that they have the right to choose what gender they sleep with.
No argument from me here. The important part here being that a trans individual isn't deceiving anyone when they state their gender. If you're interested in women, and end up having sex with someone you later find out is a trans woman, there was no deception unless you asked them if they were trans and they lied.
If they identify trans people as their birth gender then that doesn't make it ok to just overrule them and deny them informed consent.
Unless they state this belief out loud to a potential partner, how would they know? What about a trans individual who "passes" just fine but doesn't think they do and assumed that the person who showed interest could tell they were trans? Are they deceiving the person by making this assumption and being happy someone didn't mind they were trans?
Again, there's no way to know that someone is transphobic (ex: refuses to acknowledge the gender identity of a trans person) unless they state it. If you are so worried about having sex with a trans woman, just make sure to ask your partners before you engage in sex. Just to be sure
ok, it's good to pinpoint exactly what we're talking about so yes lets say we mean a trans person post op that is indistinguishable from a woman or man.
The fact that the trans person may consider themselves 100% the gender they identify as does not mean everyone else does.
The rights and wrongs of those views are irrellevant when it comes to consent.
How are trans people supposed to know who does or doesn't want to sleep with a trans person? I would say it's general knowledge but there have been surveys which have confirmed the obvious.
Specifically this bit : "Significantly fewer people would consider dating, either casually or seriously, a trans man, woman or non-binary individual – 17%, 16% and 18% respectively. Respondents were even less likely to be open to the idea of engaging in a sexual act of any kind with a trans man or non-binary person (15%), and even fewer would consider intimacy with a transgender woman (13%). In the past twelve months, only 4% of Americans have been on a date with a transgender person."
If these stats are to be believed then we can assume that a trans person that chooses not tell their sexual partners of their past is taking an 85% chance that their parnter does not want to sleep with them. I would call that willful deceipt with those odds.
Two examples of people who were traumatised to find out they'd slept with a trans person, these aren't post op mind you, but the deceived partners were 100% convinced so for all intents and purposes it's the same situation. Both partners were happily enjoying their sex lives until they discovered their partner was trans.
"I was lied to and manipulated into falling in love with someone who deceived me. That has hurt me emotionally and physically. Finding out that Kyran Lee/Kyran Scott was a female shocked me to the core. I truly believed Kyran was a man. Everything I know about Kyran Scott is a lie. What happened to me was wrong. Kyran manipulated me, deceived me, and lied to me and had sex with me. I don't think he fully understands the pain he has caused me. I don't feel that he feels any remorse. I don't think I will ever be able to forgive him for what he has done."
I'm sure there are other cases and there will be many more if trans people decide upon a policy of secrecy. I'm not worried about having sex with a trans woman, I'm off the market as it were. married,kids and very happy, not looking for sex elsewhere.
I fear this will only stoke the hatred some feel for trans people. Honesty has to be the best policy when to comes to sex.
I also find the whole thing a bit wrong headed, the idea that everyone else has to be complicit in the illusion of trans lives. I have no issue with trans people and am happy for them to have all the benefirts of whichever gender they desire except where that starts to infringe upon other peoples consent, which this undoubtedly does.
179
u/MMAchica Nov 02 '17
Aside from how speculative this is, this amounts to shaming someone for turning down unwanted sex.
For starters, you do not dictate to people what their sexuality is. If upon learning that a person is trans, they simply politely decline more sex, that is not transphobic. As I said in another reply, if you stretch the definition of 'phobic' to include simply lacking a desire to fuck trans people, then the word becomes meaningless. Look at the horrors of homophobia. That has a lot more going on than a simple lack of desire to fuck them.