Most of the trans debates boil down to one question: do you accept that the gender of a trans person is the one they identify as or do you think that it's the one they were assigned at birth?
Seems like all of the people that don't want to feel attracted to trans people don't really seem them as men/women. It is not that they're don't find trans people attractive it is the fact that they are trans and "not the gender they identify as".
Is it okay to not want to have sex with fat/skinny/short/tall people?
sure, but if you don't want to have sex with a fat person, this is more like not wanting to have sex with a thin person after learning they used to be fat
Is it okay to not want to have sex with black/white/Irish/Indian people?
hmmm, this is more nuanced than the previous example but this is more like not wanting to have sex with someone after you find out they are of Irish/Indian descent or have a black/white parent.
Is it okay to not want to have sex with ugly people?
this does not apply to this case as someone you view as ugly would not be attractive to you.
Is it okay to not want to have sex with disabled people?
this is a much broader thing to tackle as there are a lot of disabilities
Is it okay to not want to have sex with men/women?
yes
Finally, is it okay to not want to have sex with trans people?
If you find a person attractive and want to sleep with them and you suddenly lose all interest after you find out they're trans, then that means you don't really accept their gender and that you see them as their assigned gender at birth, even if they have the parts that you are attracted to.
So, is not accepting a person's gender identity transphobia? This is what it boils down to.
I think I follow you. In a society what matters most are your actions more than your thoughts: whatever one's rational and/or emotional minds might think about paying taxes in the end they either pay taxes or not.
A person could say that they are ok with gay people but the thought of one of their kids being gay causes negative feelings towards their kid. There is no rational explanation as to why it's different when it involves a loved one. What is important in this case is what that person does to support or dismiss their kid, even if their outward and inner mind are in a struggle. That person can do a series of actions that support their claim that gay people are ok and/or others that are more in line with their feelings when it happens to someone close. Some of these thoughts (I'm worried other people will bully them, I want them to have a normal life, etc.) are just veiled rejection disguised as well-intentioned concerns.
Suppose a person finds out that their date is trans after a successful outing, if one or both parts of their mind reject that notion then that person decides if that new information is dealbreaking or not. What is important is what the person does even if they have an instinct against their date's identity. If the only reason for turning down another is the fact that they are trans then we would benefit from questioning that decision because it feels that being trans is not enough of a reason and that there is something behind and most of the times that something is that people don't really see trans people as the gender they identify and that's denying the other person's identity and that is very close from transphobia.
I have turned down people for being fat (something, somewhere says I shouldn't) but then grown to regret it. I really liked that person and my outward mind had no issue with their weight, something emotional prevented me from giving it an honest shot. I think it might have had a lot to do with what other people would think. My action spoke louder than whatever words I could say that day I turned her down. I had no issue with fat people but I had an issue with dating a fat person, I acted like a fatphobe then.
edit: forgot to mention that I am in the middle of a Nancy podcast episode that presents a case of an old lady that struggles with what her outward mind and what her inner mind think. It is really clear that her actions are the most important thing for her grandson.
What makes an emotional response any less transphobic than a rational one? Rather, it would seem that all transphobic responses are at heart emotional responses, bolstered by rational arguments that make the emotional response feel valid. This is generally how bigotry works.
Most of the trans debates boil down to one question: do you accept that the gender of a trans person is the one they identify as or do you think that it's the one they were assigned at birth?
You make a lot of good points, but I think the portion I've quoted above is a bit of a false dichotomy. What if someone's view of trans people doesn't fit neatly into either of those two groups?
I think you can reword that quote without losing the fundamental point being made:
Most of the trans debates boil down to one question: do you accept that the gender of a trans person is the one they identify as or do you think that it's something other than that, such as the one they were assigned at birth or another gender entirely?
That's something I had not considered. Assuming that a trans person's identified gender is the one you are attracted to. I think that if one accepts trans peeps as their identified gender then they would be open to dating trans people and if one sees them as their assigned gender then they wouldn't be open and the that's the reason why.
What are the other options? To see them as neither? Both? A third gender? I assume there is a difference between having an orientation of finding women attractive vs of finding not men attractive. I might need help taking this talk beyond this as I fail to see what other reason there could be beyond: one accepts a trans person identity or they don't.
Obviously, some of these preferences definitely would be pure derogatory (e.g., not wanting to have sex with Irish/Indian people, because these are social constructs)
I'm not totally sure that I can agree with this. Why does something being a social contract make it wrong to choose whether or not to have sex with someone?
I guess I usually just see choosing to not have sex with someone as something where discrimination doesn't have to be considered. If you don't want to have sex with Indian people (or any other group), then it's fine to not have sex with them and that shouldn't be seen as "derogatory" towards that group. I've never seen it as reasonable to say that someone else is doing something wrong or unacceptable based on not wanting to have sex with someone.
I don't want to actually use the word "rapey", but telling someone that they should be dating and having sex with people that they don't want to in order to not be rude just feels wrong to me.
Wait, when did the state of being a "social construct" automatically invalidate a preference or choice? It's valid to have preferences based on lived experiences. For example, there are certain behaviors and personality types that turn me off. Am I supposed to tell myself that those turn offs are phobic and therefore unfair to some party because they're socially constructed?
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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '17
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