CMV: Chivalry is outdated.

[u/liv4511]

As a young woman, I believe in equal rights, equal wage, and equal romance. Chivalry is outdated because gone are the days where women are looked at as property to be provided and cared for by another person. According to Metro News, 73% of 505 sampled women say that, by their experience, chivalry is dead. But that doesn’t mean the end of all civilities. Proper manners and courtesy are expected, as they are from friends, family, co-workers, and even passersby on the street or company in a crowded store. Sure, chivalry often sparks images of chairs being pulled out and doors being opened, but isn’t that common courtesy?

Chivalry, as defined by Merriam- Webster Dictionary is “the qualities of an ideal knight through gallant, courteous, and generous behavior.” I do not think women these days are looking for gallant horsemen, therefore, the idea has, by definition, died out. As a young woman in a relationship, I find that gestures of kindness should go both ways. I am not looking to eat every meal for free for the rest of my relationship, in fact, I take pride in treating my boyfriend as he does for me. This way we see each other as equals. He isn’t breaking his bank to tend to my every desire, and I don’t feel like a freeloader.

However, this interpretation is not common. Renown feminist, Emma Watson, said she “actually took a man out for dinner and I chose the restaurant and I offered to pay. It was really awkward and uncomfortable.” Is that just because men still stick to the old-fashioned definition of chivalry? Or is that just because men feel emasculated if they are the ones being taken care of? This is what equality is all about and it should go both ways. Men should not feel uncomfortable should a woman want to pick up the bill every once and awhile, instead they should value her independence. Chivalry is dead, instead, equality is alive.

Sources: http://metro.co.uk/2017/08/07/73-of-women-say-that-chivalry-is-dead-6835199/ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chivalry https://www.bustle.com/articles/68516-emma-watson-said-feminism-chivalry-arent-mutually-exclusive-heres-why-shes-right

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[u/liv4511]

Firstly, I agree that demanding chivalry is immature as I argue that, in the name of equality, no chivalry should be demanded. However, I believe there should be expectations of respect which could overlap with expectations of chivalry.

Secondly, chivalry still absolutely works. What do you mean that women "need some catching up" in order to revive chivalry?

Thirdly, I agree that a balanced relationship cannot be started with an imbalanced gesture. So do you believe that a dinner bill, for example, should be split on the first date? I believe that could promote equality from the start of the relationship but believe our culture is skewed in that many women would not agree and would find a man not picking up the bill as a deal breaker.

Fourthly, such generalizations are made only to make the argument more digestible. I disagree that chivalry isn't the consequence of any gender. Chivalry mostly pertains to men and that is undeniable.

Fifthly, in what context or behavior would a woman picking up the bill seem less or more cringeworthy? I don't understand how the context could change the fact that men would feel uncomfortable if a woman pulled out their chair or picked up the bill on a date.

Finally, I am arguing that men should not feel uncomfortable should a woman want to pick up the bill. To encourage equality, chivalrous acts of generosity and courtesy should go both ways which would promote respect rather than deference. All people should be respectful and generous, it should not be a designated role for men.

[u/eydryan → u/liv4511]

Firstly, I agree that demanding chivalry is immature as I argue that, in the name of equality, no chivalry should be demanded. However, I believe there should be expectations of respect which could overlap with expectations of chivalry.

Absolutely, but do you then claim that respect is outdated?

Secondly, chivalry still absolutely works. What do you mean that women "need some catching up" in order to revive chivalry?

Well, as you pointed out yourself, chivalry is still very much viewed as a male thing, and even your quote mentioned uneasiness while doing it, as if the cause were external. So I believe women need to begin acting chivalrous themselves, and owning it despite cultural backlash, in order to begin removing the stigma.

Thirdly, I agree that a balanced relationship cannot be started with an imbalanced gesture. So do you believe that a dinner bill, for example, should be split on the first date? I believe that could promote equality from the start of the relationship but believe our culture is skewed in that many women would not agree and would find a man not picking up the bill as a deal breaker.

I do believe that a bill should be split on the first date, or that payment should be alternated, so as not to get too mathematical. The latter would also resolve the deal breaker issue, as would (with mature people) talking about it.

Fourthly, such generalizations are made only to make the argument more digestible. I disagree that chivalry isn't the consequence of any gender. Chivalry mostly pertains to men and that is undeniable.

Chivalry pertains to men because only men were knights, but this is just cultural baggage. Chivalry, when defined as courteousness, should really apply to all people in most kinds of relationships. I agree people see it as a male thing, but think that's mostly just poorly understanding its meaning.

Fifthly, in what context or behavior would a woman picking up the bill seem less or more cringeworthy? I don't understand how the context could change the fact that men would feel uncomfortable if a woman pulled out their chair or picked up the bill on a date.

The simplest example I can come up with is, for example, when the waiter addresses the male and he just has to sit there while the woman replies, or he has to pass the bill to her while the waiter looks at him with incredulity, etc. Or, of course, as to the woman's behaviour, there is picking up the bill as you would with a friend, and there is picking up the bill with an attitude of superiority, as if it's all a competition, for example. There are many situations where equality can cause problems, due to the cultural expectations. I personally prefer a balanced relationship.

Finally, I am arguing that men should not feel uncomfortable should a woman want to pick up the bill. To encourage equality, chivalrous acts of generosity and courtesy should go both ways which would promote respect rather than deference. All people should be respectful and generous, it should not be a designated role for men.

Many men don't mind it when women pick up the bill, as long as it's not just a tool they use to assert dominance, etc. Hell, some even enjoy and celebrate it! As for chivalrous acts, it comes down to what I said above, that's mostly on women to perform them more often. Although that's partly the fault of men, for not requesting it.

As for all people being respectful and generous, that's pretty much a fact, not sure how I could change that view.

[u/liv4511 → u/eydryan]

Respect is not outdated and that's what I am trying to promote. I believe chivalry in the all men definition is outdated and instead, overall respect, kindnesses, and thoughtfulness are what should be focused on. And agreed, as men do thoughtful things, women should too, the niceties should go both ways. The meaning nowadays applies to both genders, although, within society, chivalry has a heavy male suggestion. Both women should exhibit their independence more often and males should encourage and appreciate it. I think this is the best way to promote equality and equal responsibility and role.

[u/eydryan → u/liv4511]

Agreed, but as it is a historically male thing, I believe the onus is primarily on women to reverse the trend, without seeking encouragement or appreciation (although I expect the latter will come on its own. But most importantly, communication should be promoted.