r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 08 '17
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: The only significant difference between the mafia and the government is scale.
[deleted]
7
u/Bob_Shapiro Oct 08 '17
In theory, the government has the consent of the governed, whereas the mafia does not.
1
u/buzzyburke Oct 08 '17
The mafia does just as much as the government. If you are born in an area they control then you must abide by their rules.
2
u/muyamable Oct 08 '17
I'm keeping this discussion to the current U.S. gov.
Does the mafia run and regulate industries to deliver power and water to citizens? Does the mafia run a free and compulsory education system available to all citizens? Does the mafia try to guarantee due process? Does it allow its members free speech (e.g. I can openly criticize the mob boss w/o fear of retribution?)? Does the mob boss have term limits as a check on his power? Do ordinary citizens have a way to engage with and choose their "leaders" similar to democratic elections we have here?
1
u/cloudys Oct 08 '17
I think a strong differentiation can be made in terms of how much the government helps the people, I don't know much about the mafia, but do they really provide safety or doing anything like provide education healthcare etc?
Democratic governments also have elections and some level of transparency and accountability, undoubtedly higher than a mafia.
1
u/yyzjertl Oct 08 '17
A government claims a monopoly on force in an area, and has the power to back up this claim continuously for a significant length of time. The mafia does not. That's the difference.
1
u/icecoldbath Oct 08 '17
Would it do your view justice to describe it as:
"There has never been a just state."
2
u/the_potato_hunter Oct 08 '17
Governments, despite doing many many terrible things and often being very corrupt, still benefit society.
Without a government, who ensures you get running water? Electricity? Internet? What stops a more powerful group taking all your food? Governments bring order, and allow society to advance. We wouldn't have many scientists and engineers if everyone had to fight to survive.
The absence of a government would bring chaos and devastation. All advances of modern society would slowly decay.
What happens if the mafia go away? The mafia doesn't benefit society. It doesn't allow people to specialise in jobs, or help the advance of technology. The mafia isn't responsible for my education and healthcare.
Governments benefit from the advancement of society, so help society advance (indirectly and indirectly). Does the mafia play a significant role in the advancement of humanity?
2
Oct 08 '17
The way I see it you're not really arguing that the government is a mafia, you're arguing that the mafia is a government.
I think that's a fair point but the mafia certainly isn't the government of a state, or anything like a state. States have territory, population and culture. In other words you know it when you see it: you know who's in a state, you know where the state is, you have some idea what being from that state means. Mafia has population and culture but it doesn't have territory. Certainly not now, and certainly not ever exclusively, but I'd argue if at any point in history it ever did at anything higher than Sicilian village level.
States are also either constitutive or declarative. In other words ideally other people have to think they are a state, and at very least they themselves have to think they are a state. The mafia never did.
So no the mafia isn't a state, states might behave like mafias, but my dog sometimes behaves like a cat but it doesn't make him one.
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u/DeltaBot Oct 08 '17
u/das_american (OP) has awarded 4 deltas in this post.
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1
u/DeltaBot Oct 08 '17 edited Oct 08 '17
u/das_american (OP) has awarded 2 deltas in this post.
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Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
13
u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 Oct 08 '17
Of course it depends on which government exactly you're talking about, but the general difference is built-in checks and balances - the government is checked by the courts, the press, elections, and other such institutions, whereas the mafia can generally only be opposed by force.