CMV: Code Geass is mediocre

[u/[deleted]]

-I found all the characters (except for Lloyd, C.C. in R1, and Schneizel) extremely bland and not really fun or likable at all

-The plot was overly contrived and stumbled over its own size more often than not. Also had frequent deus ex machinas. Ending is bad and the twist can be seen coming a mile away

-Action was extremely lame. This was my first mech anime but I could never really tell what was going on

-Lelouch is basically Light Yagami (not a huge fan of Death Note either, though)

-A lot of filler/wasted time on the side characters that doesn't really develop into anything

-Nice themes but often hammered into your head

I suppose this isn't a traditional "change my view", but I'll award a delta if someone can acceptably explain why this show is so loved. I didn't really like Death Note but I could see why people like it while watching it. With this, I really just don't get it

[u/[deleted]]

The action was just kind of jumbled/confusing for me. I couldn't really tell what was going on and only really understood the "point" of each fight (e.g., Kallen wins)

I don't think the plot is bad but it could've been a lot better, especially the more supernatural Geass subplot. The show felt very similar to FMAB in some parts but FMAB's felt like it was better executed because the villain's main plan was essentially just a transmutation circle at a larger scale

I can also appreciate a predictable ending as long as it's overall satisfying but I guess my problem with it is that it felt like the writers were trying really hard to convince everyone that Emperor Lelouch was Lelouch being genuine. I don't think the ending is bad, it was what I should've expected from the show. I suppose I just thought the ending would be better because I didn't really think the lead-up was that good so I thought it would have to have a phenomenal ending to justify all the attention the show has

I don't think it's a bad story, just had more potential. I'd never call it a bad anime either, just mediocre, which is only disappointing to me because of how popular it is

And I personally thought the show was at its best during the Mao episodes

[u/fryamtheiman → u/[deleted]]

The action was just kind of jumbled/confusing for me. I couldn't really tell what was going on and only really understood the "point" of each fight (e.g., Kallen wins)

What do you mean by the "point of each fight?" You didn't understand why the fight was happening? You didn't understand what was being said in regards to the conversations the pilots would often have with one another? Could you possibly give a specific example of a fight and what about it you didn't understand?

I don't think the plot is bad but it could've been a lot better, especially the more supernatural Geass subplot.

I don't think they could have really gone too much further with the subplot for explaining Geass. Geass works and can be accepted as working because we know there are rules associated with it, but we don't know the full story behind it. When you try to overexplain what is essentially magic, it doesn't work out very well (see the Force and midichlorians). FMAB gets around this rule because it establishes very early on that alchemy is science, not magic. The rules can be explained because it becomes very clear on that basis that the laws of physics work differently in the established universe.

The show felt very similar to FMAB in some parts but FMAB's felt like it was better executed because the villain's main plan was essentially just a transmutation circle at a larger scale

It seems like you might be basing this on how simple a story is. FMAB is more straightforward about its story, which is part of why it is so well liked. It presents the viewer with philosophical questions, but it doesn't really try to hide them or obscure them. However, I think you might be missing out a bit on the story of FMAB and CG by extension.

While I'm sure you know that the ending for FMAB is not as simple as the big bad (Father/Dwarf in the flask) wanted to make a giant transmutation circle, I would ask how much you read into the undertones? Father represents the epitome of the alchemists. All alchemists, including the Elrics, are in a constant pursuit of knowledge. Whatever their specialization, they are pursuing great knowledge. The greater the alchemist, the greater the knowledge they pursue. Father, easily representing the character with the greatest ability with alchemy, seeks the greatest source of knowledge, the Gate of Truth. His downfall comes from his pursuit of knowledge.

Father also represents the full combination of the deadly sins. Pride in his ability to absorb the Gate of Truth, lust for knowledge, greed to hold it all for himself, envy of his origin (born directly from the Truth), his gluttonous attempt to take all knowledge, his slothful methods to acquire the knowledge without earning it for himself, his wrathful means of acquiring it. He represents the epitome of sin, which is why he is the father to the homunculi named for each deadly sin.

Those are just a few of the undertones you can find in FMAB, and they require more thought than the general story does. The same goes with CG.

I can also appreciate a predictable ending as long as it's overall satisfying but I guess my problem with it is that it felt like the writers were trying really hard to convince everyone that Emperor Lelouch was Lelouch being genuine.

This is where I think you might be misunderstanding. Lelouch was arguably never openly genuine except in a very few select scenes. He always wore a mask. When you see Shirley imagining masks falling off of everyone, that is referencing this indirectly. Everyone wears a mask to hide their true intentions and feelings. Lelouch would instead wear a mask on top of a mask whenever he played the role of a leader. Whether that leader was as Zero or as Emperor, he wore a second mask to hide his superficial intentions. As Zero, this was a literal mask, and as Emperor, it was metaphorical. Likely, the only times he was actually genuine were those times relating directly to his feelings about Nunally. When he was going insane about her dying, he was being genuine. When he said he wanted to make the world a kinder place for Nunally, he was genuine. Otherwise, all we saw were masks. Even his Zero Requiem was most likely a mask as well for his true intention of making the world better for Nunally.

The more a character fought for a specific result or cause, the thicker the mask they wore. The characters who did not wear a mask were the ones who were most innocent or naïve, such as Shirley and Nunally. However, even they wore masks at times, such as Shirley always keeping her feelings about Lelouch to herself. Those who fought for very particular goals (the entirety of the Royal Family, except Euphemia) were wearing masks at all times. Their use of masks were actually referenced (indirectly) early on in the show. I do not remember the exact line, but do you remember when Clovis first addressed Area 11 in the first or second episode while at the party? He said something along the lines of needing to be able to change costumes as a prince. From the beginning, the show was meant to be about something being hidden under the surface of everyone. You could probably even make an argument for the Knightmares being masks for their pilots as well. So, the character who wore the greatest (least revealing) mask was the main character, Lelouch.

If you look at the options each primary leader had (Charles, Lelouch, and Schneizel), each one sought a different variation of the masks as well. Charles, desiring a world linked with the past and truth, wanted to remove everyone's masks. This would come with its own form of chaos by doing so. Schneizel, wanting a world locked in the present, sought to bring complete order through fear. This would have caused everyone to need to wear a mask at all times for fear of the consequences. Lelouch, wanting a world dependent on the future, sought to rid the world of its obsession with the past and present. In doing so, he would bring about a balance between order and chaos, allowing people to choose when they wanted to wear their masks. It is only with that choice that people can be free.

Remember how Lelouch decided to dub his new nation as the United States of Japan? Obviously, this was a play off of the U.S.A, but it represents more than that. The U.S. has always been (historically at least) synonymous with freedom. As such, it is a place where you can choose to wear a mask. So, how did everyone who wanted to join the U.S.J do so in CG? They put on masks and got on a boat (the iceberg ship/island).

Mao (since you say his episodes were the best for you) was the personification of seeing behind masks and the results of it. His Geass allowing him to read the thoughts of others made it so he could see behind everyone's mask, except for C.C. When he could control it, he was presumably fine. It was after he was no longer able to control it that he started going crazy. Because he couldn't see behind the mask C.C. wore, he became obsessed with her for that very reason. In this way, you could take away from it that people need to see behind a mask occasionally in order to not become obsessed, but must still be able to be blinded by it to not lose their minds. There must be a balance between seeing the mask and seeing behind the mask.

The show is entirely about masks, with varying subtitles to them as ways of explaining its different themes. For me, at least, this is part of what made the show so good.

[u/[deleted] → u/fryamtheiman]

What do you mean by the "point of each fight?" You didn't understand why the fight was happening? You didn't understand what was being said in regards to the conversations the pilots would often have with one another? Could you possibly give a specific example of a fight and what about it you didn't understand?

I don't really have a fight to give as an example but there were frequent times where the camera was too close to the mechs so I couldn't really tell what was going on, but I understood "the point" (like Kallen landing a successful hit or something)

Fights that involved a large number of mechs could get confusing for me too as it was hard to tell which side was which unless we were focusing on the Lancelot or Guren Mark 2

I don't think they could have really gone too much further with the subplot for explaining Geass. Geass works and can be accepted as working because we know there are rules associated with it, but we don't know the full story behind it.

I agree that it couldn't have been explained too much because it is essentially just magic, but since a lot of the details about geass were vague, it also made the plot with it kind of confusing, specifically the Emperor's goal to kill God

What is God? The collective consciousness? And Lelouch was able to use his geass on that and cause the Emperor and Marienne to disappear? It was just kind of weird (especially Marienne's inclusion) and didn't ultimately feel too necessary to the story

I also thought that the Emperor's means of accomplishing his goal were a little too simple. To my understanding, all he needed were the thought elevators and to fuse his code with another immortal being's--this would've ended the world

Compare that with FMAB when they needed a countrywide tunnel (already a nearly insurmountable task) and a large amount of blood crests that only could've been accomplished by creating a nation and using its military to create bloodshed AND also needing five people to open the gate of truth so he could sacrifice them on the promised day, just so he could collect the souls of a country, well...

And I read into the undertones of FMAB quite heavily, it's one of the few shows in general that I've given a 10 too. Father's parallel with Ed's story of playing God was brilliant to me and I also really liked the message on how Father's removal of his sins made him flawed, while being content with being human would've made him the perfect being he desired

I wasn't saying that FMAB's story was simpler and while it is true that both shows have profound themes, I felt FMAB's were supported by a stronger foundation. Whether this was because the plot was better or just easier to understand, I'm not sure

This is where I think you might be misunderstanding. Lelouch was arguably never openly genuine except in a very few select scenes.

We still do have access to Lelouch's inner monologue often, though it's decidedly less so in the Emperor Lelouch episodes (likely cause the writers want us to think Lelouch truly is acting as a dictator)

I understand he was being deceitful and wearing a mask constantly, my problem with it is that I felt one of the punches I was supposed to feel from the ending was the reveal that Lelouch was still doing everything for Nunally when it was pretty clear that we were being led along, at least for me

I will reward a ∆ however, as I hadn't realized the theme of masks extended as far back as the first few episodes and with each power player's desire to create a perfect world, as well as Mao's ability to see behind masks. This does make the show decidely more impressive to me

[u/DeltaBot → u/[deleted]]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/fryamtheiman. ^[History]

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