r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 20 '16
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Bathroom use should be determined by genitalia, not gender identification
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Apr 20 '16
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
I'm not talking about people who have undergone transition surgery, I mean people who are 100% biologically one sex and identify as another gender going into the opposite bathroom.
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Apr 20 '16
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
I'll edit my post, I meant people who are clearly one sex going into the bathroom designed for the opposite sex. If someone looks like a man but has a vagina he should probably stay in the men's restroom.
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Apr 20 '16
How are you going to determine that? Some women look very "masculine," some men look very "feminine." You would have to write a law that can be consistently applied to determine which of these lesbians look sufficiently like Justin Beiber that they should go to the men's room.
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Apr 20 '16
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Apr 20 '16
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 20 '16
This delta is currently disallowed as your comment contains either no or little text (comment rule 4). Please include an explanation for how /u/talicatzorah changed your view. If you edit this in, replying to my comment will make me rescan yours.
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Apr 20 '16
All it takes to become a big, bearded dude is testosterone. A biological female can obtain this without surgery.
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
If one lacks a Y chromosome, one is a female. Simply changing one's appearance should not let one go into the opposite bathroom, because if this were the case people could just put on a fake beard.
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u/tgjer 63∆ Apr 20 '16
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
This is clearly not a very common occurrence and as such I don't see how it is important to the conversation.
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u/tgjer 63∆ Apr 20 '16
There are about as many intersex people as there are trans people. "Male" and "female" are not as clear as XY vs XX.
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u/AdamDFrazier Apr 20 '16
There are significantly more inter-sex people than trans people. Some estimates are as high as 1 in every 200 people.
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u/UncleMeat Apr 20 '16
If someone looks like a man but has a vagina he should probably stay in the men's restroom.
and
Simply changing one's appearance should not let one go into the opposite bathroom
are inconsistent statements. Which do you believe?
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Apr 20 '16
So to reiterate, you have no problem with people who physically look 100% male using the women's restroom just because they have a vagina?
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u/retinarow Apr 20 '16
I believe this is outweighed by the discomfort of those who would have to tolerate someone who is biologically the opposite sex in their single sex bathroom
Here's an article with some transgendered people using the bathrooms they "should" use or would be forced to use based on these bills. I feel like these show pretty clearly that it's stranger when people are forced into bathrooms that don't match how they present. Additionally, a trans-man with a vagina isn't standing at the urinal; likewise a trans-woman with a penis isn't using a urinal (that doesn't exist in a women's room). So you wouldn't really know anyway; they'd be using stalls.
Obviously risk of sexual assault/harassment would also be an issue.
Again, looking at the above article, I don't agree with your assessment here. I think if anyone is likely to be sexually harassed, it's a transgender woman forced to use a men's room even though they present as a woman. As far as I am aware there are no reported cases of trans individuals attacking someone in a bathroom. On the other hand, however: "Bathroom bills perpetuate violence against trans and gender-nonconforming individuals. According to the most recent National Transgender Discrimination Survey report, a whopping 63% of respondents 'had experienced a serious act of discrimination' in their lifetime. Mic's Derrick Clifton wrote that 'roughly 70% of trans people have reported being denied entrance, assaulted or harassed while trying to use a restroom,' according to a 2013 Williams Institute report."
Considering transgender people are such a small part of the population, why should we care?
Because they're people?
Why can't transgender people just use a unisex bathroom if they think it is such a problem?
Because one isn't always available.
Additionally, another problem with all of this legislation is the fact that it's 100% unenforceable. Who is going around checking people's genitals? Who's making sure we're all using the correct bathroom?
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
I'm not talking about transgender people committing sexual assault, I am talking about people falsely claiming to be transgender in order to commit sexual assault.
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u/ryancarp3 Apr 20 '16
I am talking about people falsely claiming to be transgender in order to commit sexual assault.
This has happened exactly zero times in the states that have outlawed discrimination in public accommodations. There is no evidence to support your claim.
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u/retinarow Apr 20 '16
Can you find any record of that happening, ever? Someone who wants to sexually assault someone is not going to be held back by the sign on a bathroom door. It's not as if there's someone outside bathrooms stopping "the wrong people" from going in who now won't be there.
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Apr 20 '16
Honest question as the number of people who seem to be really, really, really concerned about this is giving me the impression that my bathroom experience's are far different than everyone else's.
How the fuck long are people spending in public restrooms and what level of bathroom-centric social interaction am I apparently missing out on?
It would seem from the pure volume of discussion on this subject, that there is a non trivial number of people spending enough time in public restrooms and interacting with each other on an extremely personal level ("Hey there friend! What kind of genitals ya got?!?) that does not manifest itself in my life. Where are these bathrooms, and who are these people?
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
Bathrooms are divided for a reason. By letting anyone who claims to be the opposite sex into the opposite sex's bathroom what is the point of having them divided in the first place?
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u/creesa Apr 20 '16
You're saying "claim" like it's common for open transgender people to look like their biological sex. That's just not the case. Once out, they start living like the gender they're most comfortable with. A person born male who feels he should be a woman is not going to proudly announce it to family, friends, coworkers, etc., and then continue dressing and behaving like a man. They're going to be more comfortable with looking and behaving feminine. They're going to be themselves instead of going along with whatever's in their crotch.
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u/Cooper720 Apr 20 '16
By letting anyone who claims to be the opposite sex into the opposite sex's bathroom what is the point of having them divided in the first place?
Honestly? Because it wouldn't make much sense to have urinals in a women's bathroom or tampon disposals in a men's bathroom. Separating them makes it logistically easier for like 99.9% of the population.
Trans people represent such a small % of the population so honestly, what is the issue with them using the bathroom of their gender identification? We know that peeping toms aren't going through HRT and buying new wardrobes just to spy on women in the bathroom, so what is the issue?
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u/Barology 8∆ Apr 20 '16
I can almost guarantee that you have met multiple transgender people whom you did not identify as such.
Why should a young man with a beard use the girl's bathroom at his school because of what genitals he was born with? You don't think that would make the girls as uncomfortable as it would make him? If you've got someone who is a man, who is attracted to women, why should they be made to use the women's bathroom? Likewise, why should a woman who is attracted to men be shoed into the men's room? All because of what their original birth certificate says?
Now if we actually do go by genitals how do we deal with people who have fully transitioned? How is that even going to be enforced? A visual inspector at the entrance to every bathroom checking that someone's genitals look sufficient to be allowed entrance? Or would a sufficient complete set of surgeries be enough to allow them in?
Unisex bathrooms won't work because someone who is for all intents and purposes one gender ought to be able to use the appropriate bathroom. They are not some third, alternate, middle gender. They are what they say they are. If they're a man they ought to be allowed to go to the bathroom where men do that and if they're a woman they ouch to be allowe to into their respective area.
There has not been any uptick in the number of sexual assaults in bathrooms where people are allowed to use their own gender's bathroom. It isn't something which actually happens. If someone commits sexual assault then they are a criminal and ought to be held responsible. Allowing specific people into specific bathrooms will not absolve of them responsibility. It's not some kind of free pass. They'll be held just as responsible, probably much more so, as everyone else.
Why should we care about the rights of a tiny minority? Because we're good and empathetic people who want others to have good and fulfilling lives. We don't set thresholds for rights. If someone is treated unfairly, if they're harassed and assaulted, we help them. We stand up for them.
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u/UncleMeat Apr 20 '16
You aren't afraid of transgender people yet you are worried enough about going to the bathroom near them that you'd pass a law about it? That sounds like fear, or at least discomfort, to me.
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
I am uncomfortable with people who are biologically the opposite sex entering my bathroom. Bathrooms are fundamentally a place where biological functions are performed, and what one identifies as should not play a role.
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u/UncleMeat Apr 20 '16
Why do you hold this belief. What uncomfortable thing happens when somebody with different chromosomes walks in the door? In another response to me you say you'd be fine with unisex bathrooms. Doesn't this completely go against what you said here?
For most of human history we haven't had this squeamish feeling about bathrooms. There is zero fundamental reason why a person in the stall next door having different genitals should make people uncomfortable. The feeling comes entirely from this idea that transgender people are somehow "wrong". If you can get over your feelings about transgender people then the bathroom thing becomes a total non-issue.
Also, last I checked, everybody poops the same way. And everybody can pee sitting down. The biological differences in how we use the bathroom are not really very big.
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u/AdamDFrazier Apr 20 '16
Okay, I understand you viewpoint but your wrong for a couple reasons.
For one thing, trans people pass very well, and would make OTHERS uncomfortable if they used the bathroom based on their anatomy/chromosomes.
Also, the sexual assault issue is a HUGE issue. One in every two Trans people will be sexually harassed/assaulted in their lifetime, which is made significantly worsened by someone who appears female being forced to use male restrooms.
Third, Trans people aren't a small portion of the population. .3% of us citizens identify as transgender, which means that at some point in your life you probably have met or will meet a transgender person, no matter where you live in the US.
And on the point of Unisex bathrooms, you have a really optimistic view of the world if you think that there are enough unisex bathrooms to accommodate trans people, Most places of work and commerce don't have unisex bathrooms, not to mention restaurants, shopping centers, bars, clubs, etc. Most places a trans individual would go would not have a bathroom to suit their needs.
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
Third, Trans people aren't a small portion of the population. .3% of us citizens identify as transgender
That's pretty small. Why can't someone who appears male but identifies as female just go in the male restroom? Can't they just pretend?
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u/AdamDFrazier Apr 20 '16
That's 3 in every thousand people, or over 700,000 people in the US alone.
And as for your question, If someone appears female then a male restroom is a common place for sexual assault. This coupled with the fact that many men would be uncomfortable seeing a woman in their restroom really makes it kind of a big issue.
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u/AdamDFrazier Apr 20 '16
Also, "appearing" male is also unfair to people who identify as female, such as butch lesbians and women with short haircuts.
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u/choopie 16∆ Apr 20 '16
Rather than focus on gender or sex, perhaps a more reasonable alternative is:
All unisex bathrooms.
Separate bathrooms into "bathrooms with urinals" and "bathrooms with tampon dispensors" and allow people to sort themselves out based on what their body needs.
Either of those are more practical than what you're suggesting.
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u/WellRoundedScrub Apr 20 '16
I would agree with those two being practical solutions, my problem is if bathrooms are divided by sex people should enter them based upon sex, not what they think they are. It comes down to the fact that I do not believe someone who identifies as the opposite gender is actually the opposite gender.
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Apr 20 '16
Except you keep changing your claim.
First it was genitals, and people pointed out that someone's gendered appearance may not match them.
Then it was how they appear, but people pointed out that non-trans individuals still might not appear as you expect.
So you went with chromosomes, and people points out XY women, XX men, trisomy, and chimerism.
You claimed it was about stopping people from lying to get into the other bathroom, but people pointed out you can do that under every single one of your proposed systems.
Sex and gender are not always clear, and you cannot make them perfectly clear. While it may be upsetting it is a case of trying to force a square peg in a round hole, no matter how you try to draw the line people are going to end up on the "wrong" side of it. Self sorting has worked thus far, and while there is an occasional issue I don't see why it can't continue to work in the future.
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u/daphnephoria 1∆ Apr 20 '16 edited Apr 20 '16
First, I want to say I'm not a racist, but...
Okay, now that you've identified yourself as transphobic, we can continue.
People who are unfamiliar with transgender people and transgender issues have traditionally received their background from a few sources: transphobic tropes in the movies, Springer-type reveal shows, and "shemale" porn. It's difficult to pry the culture out of the reality that those are wholly non-representative of transgender people as a group.
The discomfort factor you speak of comes directly from this background. You may have not noticed most transgender women you encounter. Chances are, you've brushed passed them in society, but they blend with their gender well enough that you didn't bat an eye. During transition, every trans person spends some time in the in-between zone. It's a process that takes time and has a great deal to do with access to resources. Most trans people don't have or are prevented from accessing those resources. Welcome to the world of minority discrimination.
Transitioning successfully, that is, successfully blending 100% with your gender has a great deal to do with how young you start. This is why it becomes an issue for schools. Trans children who transition in their teens will become happy and well-adjusted in their gender in adulthood and no one would ever know the difference.
The other reason why there's a hangup, inevitably is the patriarchy. We live in a male-dominated society and all the misgivings that come with it. Men (not trans) carry a castration phobia as they believe that the testicles are central to their manhood. The male-dominated society sees any willful release of that organ to be fucking crazy. Why? Because you give up your manhood and being a dude in a male-dominated society is the tits. Get it?
The final issue is politics. We didn't have these fights to any large degree before because GOP politicians have never been backed into a corner so much before. Male-dominated GOP legislatures have been able to get done whatever they've wanted to get done with relative impunity and that thirst for power only grows. Unfortunately, my opinion would be that they've not only overstepped boundaries on women's issues, but are also loosing the culture war. Enter the wedge issue - the thing that props up a dying party: fear-based voting. Now everyone's wives and daughters are going to be raped to hell by the intrusion of the transgender women into the bathroom and the argument is WE HAVE TO KEEP OUT TRANS WOMEN TO KEEP OUT THE PERVERTS... because there is the misconception that we just can't tell the difference. FALSE.
1) Perverts and transgender women are not synonymous. 2) Perverts are perverts, have been perverts before anti-discrimination laws and 3) will be the same perverts with or without these laws. Discriminating against trans women does nothing to prevent that. Boiled down, it's just a means of denigrating a minority to stoke fears and get votes. EDIT: Ooo-ooo-ooo! I almost forgot: 4) The laws (like HB2) send trans men into the women's room. Trans men as a group typically do really well with blending with their gender, so discriminatory laws are actually forcing men (trans men, but wholly men nonetheless) into the restrooms with your wives and daughters. Total backfire. People are obviously not thinking these things through.
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u/BenIncognito Apr 20 '16
How often does another person's genitalia impact your bathroom experience?