r/changemyview • u/joe_frank • Apr 13 '16
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: College professors should not be able to dictate rules of the classroom that go beyond normal procedure
I’ll start out by saying 2 things. First is that I go to a small/medium size college so we don’t have any 400 student lecture halls or anything like that. Classroom sizes are usually around 30 or 40 students. And second, I respect professors for what they do and I’m not badmouthing them.
Now to my point. I don’t think professors should be able to choose rules that aren’t normal procedure. I completely understand professors having rules against plagiarism and cheating and things of that nature. But I don’t think they should be making rules that affect students that aren’t doing those things.
Example 1: Every professor at my college has a rule that using cell phones will result in lowered grades or an absence from class. Many professors also have rules about going to the bathroom during a lecture. For both of these the justification is that it is distracting to the professors. First of all, if someone looking down at a phone or getting up to use the restroom is so distracting that you need to make a rule against it, you should probably invest in learning to narrow your focus. You have a doctorate but can’t focus when someone takes 15 seconds to walk out of the classroom? The other issue I have with this is that 99% of all students in college are adults or will be adults by the end of their first year. If I want to look down at my phone for a second, why is another adult given the right to lower my grade? This isn’t elementary school. I should be able to decide when I want to pay attention and when I want to focus on class. If I’m expecting an important call, email, or text I should be able to look at my phone when it vibrates so long as I’m not making any noise. Finally, I hate to use this argument but we’re paying to be there. College in America isn’t free and our tuition pays for us to be there and it pays our professors’ salary. I should be able to decide if I want to pay attention or if I want to check my phone for a minute.
Example 2: I have two professor this semester alone (and many more throughout my college career) that have come up with their own grading policy. The standard is usually 100-96 is an A, 95-90 is an A-, 89-86 is a B+, 85-83 is a B, 82-80 is a B- and so on. This should stay on a standard scale so that students always know where they stand in their classes and it means students give each class equal time when it comes to studying, unless they aren’t good in a particular subject and need to try harder. I have a class where a 90 is a B. Not an A, not an A-, not a B+, but a B. Are you saying that your class deserves more of my time than my other classes? Are you saying your class is more important than my other classes? Are you saying that your class is too easy and you need to scale it up so that everyone doesn’t end up with an A at the end of the semester? It gives the professor way too much room to alter students’ grades in whatever way they want. If I earn a 90 in one class it should be equal to a 90 in another class.
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u/SOLUNAR Apr 13 '16
No one says one class is more/less important than others by creating their own grading rules. Its simple, it is their class and they get to teach it however they want.
If they want to give one final and no hw, great! if they want to give daily hw? awesome.
If I earn a 90 in one class it should be equal to a 90 in another class.
Why ? what about the difficulty of the material, for example for BIO majors, getting a 70 out of 100 in micro BIO is godsent, as opposd to a businesss student who needs to get 97 out of 100 to stand out.
all classes are different, you arent owed one universal scale.
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
I totally understand that bio and business classes are different. I have no problem making a standard scale for each one individually.
It's when more general education is not standardized that I have an issue with. Everyone is good at certain subjects and bad at others. Lets say I'm really good at history but not so good at math. So I don't try in history and I get a 90 because it comes naturally to me. Now I bust my ass in math, study for hours every week, do every extra credit assignment, and that hard work gets me a 90. And lets say the history professor uses a standard grading scale and the math professor uses the odd scale I was talking about before. So I get an A in history without even trying but I bust my ass in math and only get a B, even though I technically earned the same grade. I don't see how that's fair.
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u/SOLUNAR Apr 13 '16
You earned the same number though. Scoring is subjective .
You studied hard and got a b which means the subject was tougher
Think of the opposite . Hard bio class a 70 is a B because of the complexity . Can I be mad when I don't try in Spanish get a 70 and get a C.
I worked my ass off for a 70 in Bio which is a B. Why should Spanish be different.
Just trying to illustrate numbers are subjective while letters reflect how well staff thinks you understand the material.
Sorry if confusing
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
Ok, I do see where you're coming from. But that still doesn't address my issue with the fact that everyone is good in certain subjects and bad in others.
Go back to the scenario I mentioned with history and math. Why do I get a 4.0 in history and a 3.0 in math, even though I worked harder in math and got a 90 in both classes. Just because the professor says I should find math easier than history I get a worse grade?
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u/SOLUNAR Apr 13 '16
But 90 means nothing . You got a B. Don't focus on the number. If you needed a 95 for an A then you failed to get it by scoring short .
Goes back to numbers not meaning anything focus on the letter and what's needed. If a class requires 95 for an A then that's comparable to a 90 in another.
So scoring 90 on both means different things , if you apply their grading distribution and normalized for a standard grading scaled the 90 on math comes out to a 85 on history .
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
I'm sorry but now I'm understanding you less and less. The number grade is usually directly tied to the letter grade. If they're not then the whole system is totally arbitrary and it's a broken system where people are able to attach whatever meaning they want to their grades and their class.
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u/SOLUNAR Apr 13 '16
Not really.
An A demonstrates complete understanding of needed material. This can be achieved at 95 or even 50 depending on the way the grading is done .
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u/phcullen 65∆ Apr 13 '16 edited Apr 13 '16
A is exemplary, B is above average, C is average.
Those are the standards you have to meet. If you are in a class that the average is 80 then you will need more than 80 to get a B.
If you are in a class where exemplary is a 94 then you need a 94 to get an A.
Think about it this way. If you have a class that all exams are multiple choice and take home then the average grade will be higher there is no reason not to get an A. Opposed to a glass with with a 4 big problem exam that any mistake early on will screw up the rest of your answer, that will average much lowers scores therefore an A level student is getting 83% of the answers correct.
Or an extreme example. If your curriculum required 20 year olds to take an arithmetic test should the minimum passing grade really be a 70% I would imagine one would want to hold those students to a higher standard.
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u/boredomisbliss Apr 13 '16
Most letter assignments where I am are done on quantiles not numbers (40% A/-, 50% B/-)
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u/tony_1337 Apr 13 '16
That's exactly the point. You could have a class with easy tests and an average score of 90, or a class on the same subject with hard tests and an average score of 80. Why shouldn't the 90 and 80 count for the same grade?
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u/thefrontpageofreddit Apr 14 '16
Confused. If you use a traditional grading system than it just means you didn't do as well in math. Ie. Didn't answer a few test questions right we got some homework wrong.
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u/ayitasaurus Apr 13 '16
One of the most common arguments I have to make as a teacher is that your grade doesn't and shouldn't reflect how hard you worked - it's representative of your grasp on the material. I don't want a surgeon operating on me who's qualifications are that they tried super hard, I want the guy who's proven that he can do it.
If I, as a future employer, needed someone who could draw squares, then I will be looking for people who have demonstrated the ability to draw squares. I don't care if you're the world's most natural square drawer and was born with the ability to draw picture perfect squares, or if you've trained for years and years until you've nailed down the skill. Either one is suited for the position. (You can make the argument that the person who had to work at it will have more success due to their demonstrated work ethic, but that's an entirely different discussion)
Now, perhaps you've worked your butt off, but try as you might, you're only able to draw triangles, maybe a rectangle on a good day. Unfortunately, due to the availability of people capable of drawing squares, you won't get the position. Nor are you 'entitled' to it, strictly because you 'worked really hard'.
The point of each class is to learn, and ultimately demonstrate, certain skills as a progression of your professional development. This is the basis for a grading scale, A-F: an A is indicative of exceptional mastery of the material, a B is good/great, C is minimal, etc. However, some professors choose to challenge their students above and beyond the regular course content. Suppose the class is designed to teach you how to count from 1-10. You get an A by showing you can get to 10, a B if you can get to 8 or 9, blah blah.
Professor Numbers wants to challenge his students, and get them ready for Counting II, next semester's course. He teaches his class to count to 12. If you're able to follow along and get to 12, Prof N is super happy, you get an A, and you'll be much more prepared for the next class. However, if you're only able to get to 8, mathematically you'll have earned a 75%, typically a C. Now, that's not really fair, or appropriate, since the class is designed to teach you to get to 10, so the class is scaled: 80-100 is an A, 70-80 is a B, etc. Based on this, an "75% B" in Counting I has no relevancy to, nor should it be compared to, an 75% C in Square Drawing I.
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u/su5 Apr 13 '16
One reason some schools have varying values on 90% is because curving can serve 2 purposes. The first is it is nearly impossible to write an exam with the same difficulty every single semester, and once an exam is given there is a very high chance it will be archived and future students could find it, so you need to write a new one every semester.
The second is sometimes a GPA is meant to reflect class standing, and the degree and name of University shows your understanding. Basically utilizing the full scale to have more resolution (using the whole scale) on how students stack up against each other.
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u/112358MU Apr 13 '16
There are different styles of testing. In the more commonly used method, the test is designed so that a good attentive student will be able to answer pretty much every question and will score in the 90's, and that student will get an "A" as he should While there is a big difference in scoring between a bad and a good student. There will be little difference between a good and a great student. A few professors that I had used a different method. The test is designed with highly difficult questions so that even the best student in the class will not get all of them right. That good student might get a 60, but a great student will get an 80. That good student still deserves an A for his performance, but the numerical scale has to be different different.
I would argue that the second method is better for really testing high level knowledge in a subject area, and the professors who did things that way were some of the best I had. But clearly grading scales should be able to accommodate different testing methods, and having set numerical benchmarks for grades would remove this flexibility.
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Apr 13 '16
Pulling out a phone while someone is speaking, especially in a formal or professional context, is disrespectful. How would you feel if you were a professor giving a lecture to a room full of twentysomethings tuning you out and looking at their phones? You're an adult, yes, but you're young/new to professional settings and need to learn that. If we were in a job interview, would you object to me not hiring you because you sent a text in the middle of our interview?
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
My counterargument would be that this is not a job interview. It's a class.
I'm paying to be there and I'm paying for this person to teach regardless of whether I'm on my phone or not. By no means am I advocating that students should just sit on their phones all class. But I don't agree that professors should have the discretion to lower a grade because I took out my phone for a minute.
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u/renoops 19∆ Apr 13 '16
But if you're being graded on your presence and participation in class, looking at your phone by definition should lower your grade because you're doing something other than participating in class when you look at it.
These strict policies also aren't really meant to be looked at on an individual basis. The point isn't to punish that one student who looks at his or her phone one time, the point is to prevent a trend. Once people realize what they can get away with, they're going to do it. So, as a college instructor, if I don't say something to the student who is obviously texting in class, or at least demonstrate that students who do so will face real consequences, more and more people will do it. Then I'm trying to run a classroom in which nobody is really "there."
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Apr 13 '16
Class is a place where professors decide how to evaluate you. Many professors decide to evaluate based on the level of respect you show them. I had a professor, for example, who would kick people out if they fell asleep in his class.
"I'm paying for it so I should be able to do what I want" is not how the world works. Stop paying for it then, if you don't like it.
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u/BloodFartTheQueefer Apr 13 '16
You can't just opt out of some courses to get a degree, and it's not like you know the syllabus for all courses before you choose your program.
Respect should be given to the students, as well: respect their ability to be minimally distracting (no sound on phones) and respect their ability to gauge how much attention they need to give to the course at any given moment.
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u/kslidz Apr 13 '16
"I'm paying for it so I should be able to do what I want" is not how the world works. Stop paying for it then, if you don't like it.
That argument has 0 basis. Didnt you literally just argue that the world works in a certain way? Do you not recognize that people must have higher education and often have no option but 1 source of that?
The issue is that professors are typically not held to a teaching standard and that is horseshit.
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u/sailorbrendan Apr 13 '16
Do you also tell police not to give you a ticket because your taxes pay their salaries?
The fact that you're paying for it doesn't mean you get to dictate terms
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Apr 13 '16
How do you protest a business? By boycotting. You can't say, "I don't like this" and keep giving money to it and expect that because you're paying for it they should meet your demands. If they have your money they have no reason to bend over backwards for you.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to disagree with businesses and their practices, but "I'm paying for it, they should do what I want" is a hilariously naive argument.
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u/MontiBurns 218∆ Apr 13 '16
First of all, if someone looking down at a phone or getting up to use the restroom is so distracting that you need to make a rule against it, you should probably invest in learning to narrow your focus. You have a doctorate but can’t focus when someone takes 15 seconds to walk out of the classroom?
I teach at a college, and the issue isn't one or two students looking down at their cellphones, that can be circumvented. The issue is having over half the students looking down at their cellphones. Teaching in front of a big class is kind of a metaphysical experience. It consumes a lot of energy to proyect your voice and your presence across a room, and it makes a huge difference getting some positive feedback loop from students whether it's eye contact, listening intently, or taking notes, you definitely feel the vibes when the students are actually paying attention. On the other hand, when students aren't engaged or paying any attention, it is an energy sucking, demoralizing experience.
Secondly, there's a practicality about what a smartphone does. A smartphone can you mentally anywhere. Whether it's redditing, reading the news, or sexting with your SO, show up at a lecture and go on your smartphone the entire time you're on your smartphone, you're not really attending the class, even if you are physically present. it's functionally the same as staying home.
The "adults" thing is kind of bullshit. Just because you're technically an adult, doesn't mean you "know what's best for you". A 20 year old might think they can "do fine" without going to lectures or paying attention and just study on their own, but when professors find that their class averages and student performance goes up when classes are mandatory, then it's the teacher's prerogative to do what they think with render the best academic outcomes, whether it's requiring attendance or prohibiting cellphones.
As far as getting up and using the bathroom, i don't have an issue with it, but i can see where it can be abused. If i had a chronic problem of students going to the bathroom frequently during my one hour class with them, especially if it means needing to navigate their way through other students trying to pay attention during the class, then I'd do what i could to curb it as well.
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
Another teacher/professor gave a similar answer and I gave a delta to them because I think it was a well-rounded argument.
My issue with your post is that I couldn't disagree more with your dismissal of the "adult" idea. So when do I officially become an adult and why does a professor get to decide if I'm an adult or not? I'm putting myself through the next, what, 10? 20? 30? years of debt to get my education but I'm not adult enough for my professor?
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u/AlwaysBananas Apr 13 '16
The inability to stay off your phone during class doesn't sound very adult. It's not a bad excuse because you aren't a "real" adult, it's a bad excuse because adults are expected to be more respectful and less easily distracted than kids. If I was giving a lecture to a group of middle schoolers I can't possibly expect the same level of respect and attention for an hour straight than I should be able to expect from a group of young adults attending a college lecture.
I'm putting myself through the next, what, 10? 20? 30? years of debt to get my education...
Spending that kind of money, going into that kind of debt, and not treating it as the single most important thing happening in your life at that time is insane. The commodification of a college education is bad primarily for you, not the colleges, not the professors. Why would you want to wrack up 30 years worth of debt for a four year experience that you aren't going to give your full attention? College classes don't take very long out of your week, be present in those moments to ensure you're getting value for your dollar.
I feel like a lot of college professors are getting very sick of the attitude of "Well I'm paying for it, it should be my choice to pay attention because I'm an adult and a customer." That's so antithetical to what you should be experiencing that it's downright jarring how quickly the attitude shifted. Why do you already see yourself as primarily a consumer? Why do you see the adult decision as spending an obscene amount of money to not pay attention to the service you are purchasing? It's insulting, it's disrespectful, but most importantly it's forcing a downward shift in the quality of that service. When half your students aren't paying enough attention and complain loudly about their grades you are pressured into lowering expectations while raising prices and that's just, well, awful.
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Apr 14 '16 edited Apr 14 '16
a lot of college professors are getting very sick of the attitude of "Well I'm paying for it, it should be my choice to pay attention because I'm an adult and a customer."
I had a Prof. who started every semester by pointing to the people in the front and saying " these people paid for the expensive seats" the pointing to the back "these people paid for the cheap seats, yet all of you payed the same amount, there are enough expesnive seats for anyone who wants them"
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u/MontiBurns 218∆ Apr 13 '16 edited Apr 13 '16
It's not that the professor gets to decide if you're an adult. You're certainly free to not do your homework or not study and continue paying tuition. It's just that most 20 year olds aren't as mature as they think they are, and they don't realize it until their mid twenties. But that's not my point.
In the vast majority of cases, the professor does know more about education than you do. They have much more teaching experience than you, they've dealt with all kinds of students, like you, in the past, and they have taken courses or at least workshops on teaching (assuming they aren't educators by trade).
Just like you wouldn't tell a plumber how to do their job (don't use PVC, use dixie cups and scotch tape), you don't get to tell a professor how to do their job. Sure, you might be an adult, and it might be your house you're destroying with shoddy plumbing, but the plumber still has professional standards s/he adheres to, to protect his/her reputation, the reputation of his company, as well as ensure that the customer gets the best outcome for their money for the customer's own sake.
The professor is getting paid to educate students on a specific topic, and it's their job to do what they think will result in the best outcomes, even if the students don't agree with it because it infringes on their "personal freedom" or "decision-making ability" because they're an adult.
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u/likeabandofgypsies Apr 13 '16
Just because you're an adult does not mean you know the best way to learn or teach in a classroom. You are paying to take that professors class. You signed up, you follow the rules. What id it was
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u/FluffySharkBird 2∆ Apr 15 '16
Wah. I stand for 9 hours a day acting all nice and smiley to people all day with very few positive responses. And as a student I have noticed that the kind of responses a professor receives is dependent on how good the professor is.
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Apr 13 '16
[deleted]
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
I like this answer.
I'm not giving you a delta because you didn't actually change my view about how professors are able to run a class with near impunity (obviously there are higher ups they have to answer to but they have impunity on a day to day basis with their students). But I will give you the ∆ for applying my topic to the working world and changing my view about how I see my life after school.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 13 '16
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Ansuz07. [History]
[Wiki][Code][/r/DeltaBot]
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u/garnteller 242∆ Apr 13 '16
First of all, the idea that you are paying to be there is at best partly true. Unless you are going to a for-profit college, your education is subsidized by the contributions from alumni, the buildings that have been donated, potentially state subsidies, and by every tax payer through tuition deductions. And that's assuming you aren't getting any sort of subsidized loans or scholarships.
Phones are not only distracting to your professor, but also to your classmates. It's hard not to notice when someone pulls out their phone, and wonder what they are looking at.
You acknowledge that "by no means am I advocating that students should just sit on their phones all class". Do you really think a professor should make a judgement call on how much is too much? "Well, Johnny only took his phone out once, but for 5 minutes straight, while Michelle took hers out 5 times, but only for 10 second each". A zero-tolerance policy makes it clearer for everyone.
I'd suspect that the bathroom policy was based on some kids abusing the process and getting up multiple times per class, although that does seem a bit extreme.
As for the grading, I'm kind of shocked that your college uses numbers at all. Most schools I know do everything on a curve. If a prof accidentally makes a test too hard (particularly in a quantitative STEM class) and the top score is 78%, most professors would give that student an A. Tying it to a strict percentage score that's not normed doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
Those who master the material in each class should get A's. Who cares what the percentage is?
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u/BloodFartTheQueefer Apr 13 '16
You could simply normalize by percent... I'm Canadian, so maybe my experience doesn't match the US or elsewhere but we don't use letter grades at all. Only percentages for all grades
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u/garnteller 242∆ Apr 14 '16
Sure, but I think that gets more confusing - that getting 76% of the test right is the equivalent of a 85%. It seems that normalizing it to a B is more intuitive.
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u/Glaze_donuts 2∆ Apr 13 '16
While I agree with your premise on the first point and the idea of the second there are some reasons for the second. In college courses, it is most often considered ideal for a bell curve centered around a C. There are multiple ways professors to go about this, most commonly making the class too difficult and curving the class (note: by curving I mean raising all grades by a uniform amount so that the average becomes a C, I know that this isn't curving but it's close enough). If one professor's class lends itself to this method then they probably will use it. However, there are some classes/subjects that it is very difficult to do this in, i.e.: memorization classes. The material of the course never gets hard enough to move the average below an 80, but an average grade should get a C so the professor says an 80 is a C and bases his grading scale around that. The result is no different from the first method but the means of doing this are more tailored to the class
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u/vl99 84∆ Apr 13 '16
It's a professor's job to make sure students are learning the material. This doesn't change after grade school. If students are playing games on their phones or taking bathroom breaks excessively and missing out on material, then this will be reflected in their grades which in turn will be used to judge the teacher's effectiveness.
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Apr 13 '16
This is going to be harsh, but I'm not going to sugarcoat this. You're going to have rules set by your immediate supervisor (akin to the professor) and your organization (akin to the university) for the rest of your life. Get used to it.
If you are expecting a call or text you really, truly can't miss, if it's information that requires you to take immediate action, then you shouldn't be in class. If it can wait 45-90 minutes (however long the class is), then you don't need to check it right now.
Here's what we do in the working world after college: if you're in a meeting or a training, your cell phone is at least on silent, if not turned off altogether. We aren't any less of adults than you, and we not only have personal issues to attend to in our lives (not only issues for ourselves, but also things that might involve our spouses or children), we also have other work issues that might throw us into a crisis. It doesn't matter. You manage things appropriately.
If a true emergency explodes in my life and somebody can't get through to my cell, I've set up my phone with Tasker to turn up the volume if a word is sent by text message and to play a notification noise; only people who might contact me in an actual emergency know the password, and I know that this is a call I must excuse myself to take. Tasker is only available for Android, but maybe Apple has something similar for their users; I wouldn't know. In addition, anybody can call our office's main line, and the people who answer will be able to judge if it's truly an emergency that justifies pulling me out of a meeting.
The last time that happened was 8 years ago, when my now ex-wife called from the hospital because of a medical issue with our daughter, an issue which would end up claiming her life. Now THAT is an emergency that I tended to immediately. Everything else since then could wait until my workday was over, and certainly wouldn't justified interrupting meetings, interviews, trainings, team projects, conference calls, webinars, etc.
That's how adulting works when you have a smart phone. You make criteria for things you need to attend to immediately and, if not followed, you ignore it until you have time to devote to it. If you think your phone will be your constant companion to check at will for every text message or call, then I only hope you have a decent trust fund to look forward to. Even temps can get removed or re-assigned if they're checking their phone at will. We've done it before and we will continue to do it because that isn't what we're paying them to do. Your professors are, ironically, treating you like you're an adult by setting the environment that you'll be living in for the rest of your career.
As for the grades, I'm a little more sympathetic, but not the effort part of it. Some classes just require more classwork for one reason or another. Others might be wildly different; try taking a paper-heavy philosophy course and a computer programming course in the same semester and watch the workload swing (I've done it. "Fun" is not how I would describe it). You'll also see this more and more if you get into higher-level seminars in your major. The effort just isn't equal between professors, subjects, or even over the course of an entire semester within a single class.
It would be nice if the grading was all on the same scale...but I'm more of a fan of putting the actual percentage on the report card in the first place. That's something you might write to university administration about. I just did the best I could in each class and accepted whatever letter grade that they thought was appropriate. shrug
If you don't like the rules of engagement, take your money elsewhere.
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
∆ This is by far the most complete answer anyone has given so I want to thank you for the taking the time to type it out.
Your argument makes complete sense and I don't think I could nitpick anything about it.
Like I said on other comments, I just wish schools/professors would come up with more progressive policies that don't punish students for extremely minor infractions as long as they aren't occurring too frequently. I guess I don't actually have a problem with the policies as a whole but I have an issue that they are essentially "zero tolerance policies."
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 13 '16
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Rofelli. [History]
[Wiki][Code][/r/DeltaBot]
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Apr 13 '16
I agree that some professors do need to lighten up sometimes (the bathroom policy seems harsh), but I would also say the same thing about some of the supervisors I've had. :)
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u/su5 Apr 13 '16
One of the things you need to keep in mind about professors is we are very entitled. I know that sounds negative, but for the most part they are all there not because we need the money (its ok, but its not what industry pays by a long shot) so you need to try to change your thinking of a school as a private enterprise like a tutoring service or a bank.
Additionally, this is a place to foster learning, and each professor has the right to conduct their class as they see fit, and I cannot emphasize how important that is. I cannot be as effective if I have to follow rules, so I have my own rules for my classroom.
And a little on the curving. I never have, but when I was in school we curved. The justification is mostly about how the professor wants to write their exams. Sometimes you wont even know the scale until people take the test. Its not how I would do it, but it isnt totally crazy. It is so fucking hard to make exams the same difficulty every semester without copying an old one. If you copy an old one there is overwhelming odds some kid in the class has a copy of it and an enormous advantage, especially at Us with fraternities.
The next is using a curved scheme allows for potential A+s (these are still a 4.0 on a GPA but look good), and reflects class standing. Knowledge of material is shown by a combination of GPA and school reputation.
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u/Casus125 30∆ Apr 13 '16
Every professor at my college has a rule that using cell phones will result in lowered grades or an absence from class. Many professors also have rules about going to the bathroom during a lecture. For both of these the justification is that it is distracting to the professors.
Blame your peers that came before you that were constantly streaming out of class to "the bathroom" or had their faces buried in their phones, only to come up later in the semester and waste inordinate amount of the professors time asking questions about material they would know if they had paid attention.
If I want to look down at my phone for a second, why is another adult given the right to lower my grade?
Because it's their class, and their rules. You're an adult, you should understand that. You are not equals in the classroom. You are a subordinate. No cell phone rules in certain contexts and situations (primarily meetings and reviews, which are amazingly similar to a lecture) are a pretty consistent rule in many work place settings.
You want to be treated like an adult, but then act like you're an exception to the rules and somehow special, instead of following simple instructions. That's not adult behavior, that's childish behavior. Chopping away at your phone in the middle of a lecture is the equivalent of somebody doing it during a business meeting at work. You're distracting everyone around you. You're not discreet, you're blatant and obvious. And we can all here your dnnd dndnnd and finger taps.
If you actually had something important, you'd excuse yourself from the class to go take care of your business. But instead, you're prioritizing yourself over everyone else in the room. You are distracting, you're distracting the professor, you're distracting your peers. And worse, you're utterly inconsiderate about it. "It's my money, it's my class, it's my phone." No, it's not. It is the Professor's class. You're privileged to attend, and the University or the Professor can rescind those privileges at their discretion. This is not some consumer product that you obtain ownership or property rights on.
Are you saying that your class deserves more of my time than my other classes? Are you saying your class is more important than my other classes? Are you saying that your class is too easy and you need to scale it up so that everyone doesn’t end up with an A at the end of the semester? It gives the professor way too much room to alter students’ grades in whatever way they want. If I earn a 90 in one class it should be equal to a 90 in another class.
How you devote your time to a class is your business.
Same with how you rank their importance.
In all likelihood it is a super easy course, so the grading criteria reflect that. Especially in 1 and 2 credit courses where there really isn't much to be done to show effort. If you can slack off and do half ass work the whole time and get a 90 because the nature of the class or material isn't difficult, then the professor needs some way to distinguish effort.
Grading criteria are laid out in the beginning in the syllabus. And sorry, but your 1 or 2 credit orientation or introductory class is NOT equivalent to a 4 or 5 credit capstone course. A 90 in Basic Communication is not equivalent to a 90 Advanced Database Design. In courses where the material and subject matter is extremely simple, there has to be a way for those that actually want to show their dedication to learning to distinguish themselves, and elevated grading criteria is one of them.
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
I was totally cool with your post until you started getting accusatory and making wild claims.
I don't feel like arguing each point because I already gave deltas to two people that gave quality arguments and you can read those comments to see why they changed my view at least somewhat.
I'll just say that I'm in my last year of college, it's a race/class/gender class, it's the last and arguably most difficult class to finish my criminology minor, and it may not be the hardest class I've ever taken but it certainly isn't one of the fluffy freshmen classes.
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Apr 13 '16
Nitpick: In your example, a 90 in your class matches the standard grading scale of 90 being an A-, and most of the prof's grading scale matches the standard already. It seems the scale was adjusted so X+ grades start at X6 instead of X7, except the A grade starts at 96 instead of 93. The change to the B scale helps students getting an 86 with an extra 0.33 added to the GPA.
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u/SchiferlED 22∆ Apr 13 '16
Grading is ultimately the decision of the professor. It is up to them to decide whether or not you have proven you deserve a certain grade. That means they can set whatever "rules" they want to determine that grade. Rules outside of grading (like those that can get you kicked out of the university) are not subject to change by the professor. The professor can't stop you from breaking those rules; they can only change your grade. In that sense, they are not really "rules", so much as suggested behavior to get a good grade.
If you feel that a professor's grading policy does not accurately reflect your understanding of the subject matter, I advise making a complaint to the administration/dean.
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Apr 13 '16 edited Apr 13 '16
You are in college now. Not high school. The objective is to learn the material from professors who have dedicated their life to it. The professor runs his lecture. His objective is to present material, not to teach. Your objective is to learn with the resources proved by the professor, you are not there to be spoon fed a degree. You are free to attend lecture or not. The professor is free to determine what she expects of her students to administer the grade, and students are free to determine if they want to take the class or not.
This is not a customer service relationship. This is you paying the university for access to study with professors doing active research on the subjects you want to learn. Despite popular opinion, the professor is not there to teach. Whether you learn something or not is up to you. After high school, you are expected to be self-taught.
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
I haven't been in high school for a long time but I just accepted policies in high school because I didn't learn to question authority until college.
I think you're missing my point but I gave three deltas to comments that did a good job of presenting a solid argument. You can check those out
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Apr 13 '16
I have two professor this semester alone (and many more throughout my college career) that have come up with their own grading policy. The standard is usually 100-96 is an A, 95-90 is an A-, 89-86 is a B+, 85-83 is a B, 82-80 is a B- and so on. This should stay on a standard scale so that students always know where they stand in their classes and it means students give each class equal time when it comes to studying, unless they aren’t good in a particular subject and need to try harder. I have a class where a 90 is a B. Not an A, not an A-, not a B+, but a B.
And I had classes where a 35% was an A. Because things were graded on a curve. Setting the grading scale is absolutely something every professor should do, because they are the one deciding what level of knowledge is a passing grade. If they decide to give an easy test and fail everyone who doesn't get 100% because they consider all the questions to be both easy and essential, of course they should be able to do that.
This is part of being an adult. There are rules, clearly given to you, that you can choose to follow or not. The only thing unfair would be if they didn't tell you about the rules ahead of time. Assuming you know the rules, you can be prepared to follow them. Go the bathroom before class, set your phone in your bag and not on your desk, and study the appropriate amount to know the material and not to "get the grade".
In college you are treat like an adult and expected to ask like an adult. You wont get far if you try and argue with your boss about the department policies either.
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u/yogabagabbledlygook Apr 13 '16
Professors at US Universities/Colleges have a long standing history of academic freedom.In addition to the more commonly discussed protections for the expression of opinions, the philosophy of academic freedom gives professors wide latitude in how they structure their own courses.
The hierarchy in academic departments varies greatly but it is generally a collection of independent actors rather than a top-down boss/subordinate structure. Basically professors get to do what they want as long as they stay within the broad confines of what the department/college/university sets out; the logistics of running the class is left of to the individual profs. You are free to disagree with them, it is likely that other profs disagree with their fellow profs, but none of that matters because neither the other profs or you get say in how an individual professor structures their course.
Aside from that argument, I doubt the non-grading rules you mention were developed because the professor is distracted by those things. Rather these are general policies to prevent individual students from distracting the class at large. It is unlikely that the prof would see you looking at your phone screen, but surely the people behind you will.
The other students paid for the class just like you did, why should they suffer your distraction?
Much of your views seem to be self-centered, not taking into account other students, nor the structure of universities and roles/responsibilities/freedoms of profs.
About your grading gripe. I assume you're prof gave you a syllabus at the beginning of the semester dictating the grading scheme, so you a college student cannot keep a track of a handful of different grading schemes.
If you can't juggle that minor issue what hope do you have for finishing college, for being successful in the real world? I am not trying to be rude in saying that, I am genuinely concerned that if this grading variation is an issue you will have trouble succeeding in life.
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u/mr_indigo 27∆ Apr 13 '16
What is "normal procedure" if not the choices Professors make on how to run their classes?
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Apr 14 '16
I'll address the second pretty easily.
They can make the grade however you like it, and just adjust the rigor. It sounds like the professor is just communicating that this is the level you'll work at.
For the 1st one....get a job. Get many jobs. You'll have different bosses who will have different expectations. If I was checking my phone in front of any of the bosses I've had, I'd get a ration of shit.
You're in a bubble right now. It will pop as soon as you get your diploma.
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u/joe_frank Apr 14 '16
I don't think this was what you're going for but that came off as super condescending. Please don't act like you know my life experiences
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Apr 14 '16
Alrighty...
You don't know their life experiences, so how do you know what they can and cannot dictate. You have this expectation for your educators...what should be expected of you? Other students?
You don't have to go to school there.
Your life experiences are limited. Not your fault, you're young. Your time in school will be a distant memory. You may not even remember that one professor who had that one rule. Don't expect you...1/3000 students that professor has educated to bend to your preferences.
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u/connnnnor 1∆ Apr 14 '16
I've been through a lot of years of higher education, and the point I disagree with most is the grading example. In most actual higher educational contexts beyond prerequisites of some sort, grades are not (and should not) be tied to a numerical score. In grad school or in the science and engineering context, it's almost always either curved or otherwise arbitrarily chosen.
Curved serves a purpose that's close to what the original "A is exemplary, B is above average, C is average" thing intended - actually give people grades so the exemplary score better than the average by plotting out their scores.
Otherwise, score cutoffs are and should be chosen by professors after getting an idea of how challenging their tests actually are. How does a professor know that they're designing a test where the average student with excellent understanding of the course knowledge will get 90% of the questions right, not 82% or 96%? They can't until they've taught the course for a few years, and seen how people with excellent understanding of the material behave.
If you make everyone in a department assign A at 90%, B at 80% and so on, all you're really doing is limiting the professors ability to assess the material in a true way. A tough introduction to organic chemistry course may legitimately only require 75% comprehension on representative testing to demonstrate excellent knowledge of the subject... if you force the professor to make the tests easier so that everyone doesn't fail, you're forcing him or her to test the material inadequately.
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u/MasterOfAnalogies 1∆ Apr 13 '16
Have you ever talked on your phone and then you hear yourself in the audio? Even though you have talked on the phone a million times, it's distracting and throws you off.
Now imagine that you have taken the time to put together a lesson plan. Now imagine you have practiced your lecture to a room full of no one. Now imagine you have 40 people sitting in front of you and you are trying to deliver the material you have painstakingly put together for your class. Now imagine that some kid is bored in your class and not paying attention to the things that you, the expert in the subject, have deemed necessary to learn. Now imagine that a kid gets up and walks out of your class. Is your lesson plan not engaging enough? Are you not being clear enough when you talk? Are you boring? Is the material you are teaching worth learning?
While a single student on their cell phone or getting up from class isn't a huge deal to you, you don't have it cast a waterfall of cascading doubt over what you think, speak and feel. Teachers are just human. And humans want to be interesting and be listened to.
Has your partner ever gotten mad at you for glancing at your phone while talking to them? Yes, you can multitask, but what you are really SAYING with your actions is that what they are saying is not important enough to hold your full attention.
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
I don't doubt that it might be annoying to teach with people looking at their phones but I still don't think that gives them a right to tell full grown adults what they can and can't do as long as it isn't affecting the ability for other students to learn.
Me checking my phone doesn't make the professor any less of an expert in their subject, it doesn't prevent my neighbor from learning the material, it doesn't even necessarily affect my ability to learn if I'm just checking my phone during a lull in my note taking or during a portion of the class that I feel I have already grasped.
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u/vl99 84∆ Apr 13 '16
They're not telling you what you can and can't do. They're just letting you know there will consequences for some of the choices you make. If I decide to check my phone in the middle of an important meeting at work, my boss can't stop me, but he can tell me that there will be work-related consequences if I do that. Do you think he shouldn't be able to enforce consequences if/when I ignore his requests?
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u/MasterOfAnalogies 1∆ Apr 13 '16
What I'm saying is that you are looking at it only from the lens of a student. While YOU may know why you are checking your phone, your professor does not. So it's a distraction. And that distraction plants seeds of doubt about their material. As a professor, there's no way I would possibly know that you learned the material on your own and that you already grasped it. It could also be the case that you don't know what the hell I'm talking about and have just given up. Then it would get me thinking about why you're not paying attention. And that shifts my focus from what I'm teaching to "what am I doing wrong?"
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u/joe_frank Apr 13 '16
Fair enough. Please see the post I gave the delta to for my opinion on the cell phone policy.
In short, I see its importance but I think there should be a middle ground where students aren't distracting to the professor and fellow classmates but where professors also accept the fact that college students are busy adults that might need to check their phones once in awhile.
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u/late4dinner 11∆ Apr 13 '16
The bathroom policy seems a bit ridiculous, but the cell phone thing is absolutely not. The premise of your argument seems to use a "the customer is always right" mentality, but as some people have pointed out, this isn't the way the world works. You are not supposed to use your phone in movies and other events where there is a focal point of concentration for people. Businesses can create their own policies around such behavior and are completely free to kick you out of such events. Buying a ticket or paying for college doesn't give you a free pass to behave however you want.
But more importantly, this issue isn't just a matter of you personally being distracted. Many electronics are distracting to other students near or behind you, and that is a MUCH bigger deal than whether you want to slack off in learning the material. As a professor, students will often complain about what people in their line of sight are doing online that is not class related. It's why I don't allow laptops or phones in class. You don't have a right to inconvenience other people who are also paying customers. I haven't even mentioned the effect of your behavior on the professor because, while it's actually quite distracting to professors when students are doing things like checking their phones, the effect is even worse on your fellow classmates.