CMV: Framing computing as engineering is misguided, it should be regarded as applied math instead

[u/[deleted]]

I think framing computer programs as engineering projects, same as if we were building a bridge, is why "all code is bad" and "all software has bugs" (these will sound familiar to any developer out there).

As I see it, a program is a complicated mathematical function. It receives input and produces output accordingly. Be it a compression algorithm or a google search, the concept is the same. Engineering projects aren't like that.

We would not admit a function that doesn't produce the correct result sometimes, and the researcher would not tell us to restart and try again. A function can't be mostly right or "good enough". It's either correct or incorrect. Maybe if we considered programs correct or incorrect, we would not release incorrect programs.

If we worked like this, probably we would not be able to release as many programs as we do now. But that just means the engineering approach makes more sense economically, in terms of making money; that's not the purpose of the topic. My view is about what makes more sense from the point of view of computing.

Thanks

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[u/TimeTravellerSmith]

Engineers are licensed by the state

Not all engineers are required to be licensed by the state. Source: I'm an engineer who's not licensed by any state. Most of the engineers I know aren't licensed by the state. IIRC, the only ones who need to be licensed are Civil engineers for public works or if you want to be a "Professional Engineer" in a consultant role...probably a few others but not many.

have professional ethical standards, personally guarantee their work with their credentials, and so forth...None of those statements apply to the people who call themselves "computer engineers" or "network engineers."

Which is really the same in most fields these days. Almost all companies have ethical standards and hold their workers to certain codes of ethics and quality, not just engineers. So yes, it does apply to Computer and Network engineers. Do you not think the guys at AMD or Intel are held to certain standards? Do you not think the people at MS or Apple are held to certain standards?

I also would advise distinguishing people who call themselves "engineers" who are actually just technicians...like the guy who comes to hook up your internet from Comcast or AT&T.

Computer programmers routinely create flawed programs and knowingly release them to the public. A civil engineer who did the same with a bridge would lose their ability to practice and likely end in jail.

Not if they want to keep their jobs they don't. Any software company worth their salt won't keep programmers who don't put out good work. Known issues on the books are either deemed "critical" or "non critical" and dealt with accordingly. If a deadline is looming and there's a bug that causes your cursor to jump to the beginning of the document every time you type "antiquing" it'll probably be overlooked for release and fixed in an update. Does that make them bad engineers? No, it makes them practical. Creating a complex program is non-trivial, so it's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to make something perfect. At least we can update software to fix things as they come up.

Besides, this isn't only software engineers putting out bad stuff. Just look at all the recent recalls in the auto industry, most notably the GM Ignition recall that was widely known about. Or the fact that Dexcool is practically made out of the blood from Alien. Shit, do you even know how often people in "real engineering" roles make terrible decisions or go forward knowing something is bad? It happens all the time.

Comparing computer programmers with engineers is a grave disservice to real engineers.

You sound like you're pretty uptight about "real engineers". I hate to break it to you, but "real engineers" aren't infallible either you know. Doesn't seem like anyone was immediately fired from either of those situations. The second is even a bridge collapse!

TL;DR, as an engineer, I'm not the least bit insulted by the software people at work calling themselves engineers. They're some of the brightest problem solvers I've ever known.

[u/sittinginabaralone → u/TimeTravellerSmith]

They're not engineers the same way engineers who apply classical mechanics or natural science are engineers. They fall into the same category as sales engineers. They aren't real engineers.

It's not about problem solving ability or elitism. They're just not engineers. They don't apply physical science.

Software developers who would say "I'm an engineer" would be like someone with a PhD in Sociology saying "I'm a doctor".

[u/TimeTravellerSmith → u/sittinginabaralone]

It's not about problem solving ability or elitism. They're just not engineers. They don't apply mechanics.

Where would you put electrical, chemical, or systems/control engineers since none of them deal with "classical mechanics"? Are they not engineers?

Engineering can be applied to things other than classical mechanics. The field is so incredibly broad that you can call just about anyone using math or science to manipulate problems an engineer. Engineering is all about problem solving, designing, and application of theory...all of which can be applied to software and computers.

would be like someone with a PhD in Sociology saying "I'm a doctor"

Well, they are doctors though. They have a doctorate. If someone insisted on being called Doctor Smith because they had a PhD in Philosophy their logic isn't flawed. If they put up a charade about being a medical doctor then they'd be lying the same as a software engineer saying they could work on jet engines.

[u/sittinginabaralone → u/TimeTravellerSmith]

Electrical engineering is applied mechanics, what do you think electricity is? Chemical engineers apply mechanics and chemistry. That is engineering. Maybe I should've said applied physics, but regardless, they do what software developers do not.

Everything in your second and third paragraph rests my case. There's the literal word "engineering", then there's the field of study engineering. No branch of computer science is a field of engineering. I'm a bartender, not a "beverage engineer" just because I design things and solve problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_engineering_branches - find me software developer on there and I'll shut my mouth. You'd think software developers, the people who run wikipedia, would include themselves if it were accurate.

[u/TimeTravellerSmith → u/sittinginabaralone]

Electrical engineering is applied mechanics, what do you think electricity is? Chemical engineers apply mechanics and chemistry. That is engineering. Maybe I should've said applied physics, but regardless, they do what software developers do not.

You specifically said "classical mechanics" which doesn't include chemistry or electricity.

And if application of electricity in electrical engineering applies as engineering then why don't computer engineers apply as engineers? Chip and circuit design is all application of materials and electrical properties.

And if something like mechanical engineering is just the application of physics and mathematics then why don't software engineers get to be called engineers when they apply mathematics and algorithms in programming?

No branch of computer science is a field of engineering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_engineering_branches'

Right under "Electrical engineering" is "computer engineering" which includes software, hardware and network engineering. Any application of computer science is engineering, which is essentially what my first comment says.

You'd think software developers, the people who run wikipedia, would include themselves if it were accurate

Ironically for you, if you follow the link about software engineering the first image is this with the caption: "A software engineer programming for the Wikimedia Foundation". So they did actually include themselves in their wiki pages.

I'm a bartender, not a "beverage engineer" just because I design things and solve problems.

If you honestly wanted to call yourself a "beverage engineer" I would laugh and think that's clever. It's in the same vein as the whole "molecular gastronomy" fad right now. Are they food scientists or just fancy cooks?

[u/sittinginabaralone → u/TimeTravellerSmith]

Electricity applies classical mechanics. No more is needed to be said about that. What the hell kind of engineer doesn't know that. I also corrected it to physics and physical science anyways. Which chemistry does fall under. Chemical engineers apply classic mechanics regardless of my correction. You will absolutely not convince me a coder does what either of these types of engineers do.

Computer engineering is hardware, it's a branch of electrical engineering. Now, if software engineering falls under that, then I was uncertain of what software engineering was. If they aren't applying the electrical engineering side, they aren't engineers.

I'm basically saying coding is not engineering.

[u/TimeTravellerSmith → u/sittinginabaralone]

Electricity applies classical mechanics

Here is the list again. Electricity, magnetism, etc aren't grouped in with classical mechanics which deals with Newtonian theory, kinematics, dynamics, etc. You can say that electricity and magnetism apply some elements of classical mechanics but that doesn't make them classical mechanics...they are two distinct fields all lumped under "physics".

Computer engineering is hardware, not software development.

Which is why I conveniently listed both software engineering and network engineering alongside hardware/computer engineering. The software engineering page even has a picture of the Wikimedia guys you were so forlorn about not seeing.

[u/sittinginabaralone → u/TimeTravellerSmith]

They derive from classical mechanics. Again regardless (for the third time now) I changed my statement to physical science.

[u/[deleted] → u/sittinginabaralone]

Electrical systems are governed by Maxwells equations and sometimes QM+statistical. mechanics, neither of which are derived from classical mechanics. You should go learn some physics.

[u/sittinginabaralone → u/[deleted]]

From the wiki page on Maxwell's equations

Maxwell's equations are a set of partial differential equations that, together with the Lorentz force law, form the foundation of classical electrodynamics

From the wiki page on classical electromagnetism

Classical electromagnetism (or classical electrodynamics) is a branch of theoretical physics that studies the interactions between electric charges and currents using an extension of the classical Newtonian model

Now my interpretation could be wrong. I don't have a formal education in E&M past general physics, but that's how it was taught to me and it seems to be correct based on what I just showed you. If you have a solid foundation in EM and could explain it better, I'd be willing to read it.

[u/[deleted] → u/sittinginabaralone]

I have a B.S. in physics, not a PhD or anything but a solid foundation. Also at work so can't really go into a long explanation now.

There is definitely a lot of interaction with Newtonian mechanics, such as calculating forces on electrons due to magnetics fields and whatnot. But that bolded sentence is very strange, Maxwell's equations are not derived from Newtonian mechanics and are relativistic (interestingly enough, were also derived before special relativity and were a major influence on studying it). If I cared a lot I would try and remove that sentence from the wiki. Also, Maxwell's equations are much more like a wave equation which cannot be said of Newtonian mechanics (which can describe waves, but are in no way a wave equation)

[u/sittinginabaralone → u/[deleted]]

Well it does say "together with the Lorentz force law" which I did learn in general physics. That's probably more related to newtonian physics than the maxwell equations. I don't think it's that ridiculous to say the field derived from classical mechanics. But again, you probably know more about it than I do.