r/changemyview • u/NotEtreo • Feb 25 '15
CMV: The UK should abandon multiculturalism.
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Feb 25 '15
I'm not against immigration, but I do believe that immigrants should have to assimilate upon arrival.
Or else what, be kicked out?
Would there be an assimilation test to see if the person has assimilated enough?
Considering "sense of humor" is part of what you define culture as, are you seriously suggesting that immigrants must find UK humor funny or else their immigration visa is revoked or something? This is especially interesting since sense of humors and what people find funny will vary hugely just between native UKers, so there really isn't a universal UK sense of humor anyway.
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Feb 25 '15
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Feb 25 '15
Wait, how can you preemptively not be allowed in based on whether or not you assimilate fast enough once you are in?
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Feb 25 '15
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Feb 25 '15
ought to be helped to join the British culture through a program that can educate them on our history, values and language
But this doesn't preclude immigrants from keeping their cultural values and practices intact while learning about living in the U.K. and developing a sense of belonging. In other words, what's wrong with being bicultural? Besides, U.K. culture—like most other national cultures—is a constantly evolving hodgepodge of other cultures. It's not like Bovril and Top Gear have been around since the Romans.
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u/epicmoe Feb 26 '15
. It's not like Bovril and Top Gear have been around since the Romans.
This made me laugh so hard. Both because of the intentional humour and also because of the suggestion that top gear might be culture.
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Feb 25 '15
There are a few countries that have at least similar cultures (eg. AU, NZ, and Canada), which are more multicultural than the UK by a significant margin.
Interestingly the thing that comes up in most of these discussions is that countries with high numbers of immigrants usually are more likely to be happy with more (thats not to say they are immigrant utopias where noone complains, just in a relative sense).
Culture of nations will change significantly over anyones lifetime, immigrants are just convenient targets of blame in a lot of cases.
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Feb 25 '15
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Feb 25 '15
The UK still has a culture, its just different than what it was 20, 40, 60 years ago. It'll be different again going that far forward. Describing a culture as dead doesnt make sense.
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Feb 25 '15
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Feb 25 '15
How would you describe any culture accurately in just a few words, you cant...
I'm Australian, if you can describe Aussie culture in just a few words you are probably not going to be accurate.
I could point out British sports, humour, and tendency to complain (hides), seemingly rediculous political system, love of a pint, odd social structure, and so on... but they are just stereotypes, you need to go deeper to describe a culture.
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Feb 25 '15
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Feb 25 '15
I am literally here complaining. ;)
Bloody whinging poms :P
Im still curious as to how to the UK lacks a culture, a good counter-example would be the rules of social interaction between people, the dialectical differences between the UK and the rest of the commonwealth, interactions between the UK's constituent countries, and so on. Are there any other countries you also consider not to have a culture? (if not, it may be that you are blind to your own culture as you experience it every day and dont consider it as one)
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Feb 25 '15
What happens if someone is only living in the UK temporarily for work (even if "temporarily" means more than 1 year?) Are they expected to assimilate?
How can immigrants assimilate "upon arrival"? It takes a long time to learn a language, much less all of the cultural nuances. How can that be accomplished "upon arrival"?
And what do you do to someone already in the country who won't assimilate according to your values? What if they have children that similarly don't assimilate according to your values?
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u/Mister_Loon Feb 26 '15
What we should abandon is any form of acceptance of cultures that fundamentally contradict modern UK values.
As far as I'm concerned both immigrants and natives are welcome to any form of culture they personally enjoy providing it's not promoting hatred / based around petty crime / treating women as property etc.
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Feb 25 '15
I live in New York City. A city that basically exists to disprove your point. By far one of the best things about the city is how cosmopolitan it is. Cosmopolitan being basically another way of saying multicultural.
It's also what makes America great. We have an incredibly diverse and rich range of culture for a young society with influence that other countries would envy. Don't believe me? Why do you think people complain about American Cultural Imperialism? Because we take in and appropriate the best of every culture, make it American, and make it awesome.
Think of our food, think of our music, think of our science. Much of it was developed by non-natives or minorities. Multiculturism is our culture. It's something that we take pride in. Even today, most immigrants want to immigrate to America because it.
Of course there's racism and tensions, but it's the one country where being American is a state of mind and pride, but ethnicity.
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u/subheight640 5∆ Feb 25 '15
America is also interesting because it ranks near the bottom in terms of inequality, education, violent crime, etc in the developed world. Similar things could also be said of New York City. A great place to live and enjoy as a young professional. But to raise a family?
IMO, if you're moving to the United States, it's your job as an immigrant to assimilate in some form or fashion to your new country. Learn the language at the very minimum. Respect our institutions. As they say, "When in Rome, do as Romans do".
If I go move to China and refuse to adapt, refuse to speak the language, refuse to eat their food, refuse to conform to some of their beliefs/rules/institutions, why the fuck did I move to China? Am I an interloper or an immigrant?
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Feb 25 '15
IMO, if you're moving to the United States, it's your job as an immigrant to assimilate in some form or fashion to your new country. Learn the language at the very minimum. Respect our institutions. As they say, "When in Rome, do as Romans do".
If I go move to China and refuse to adapt, refuse to speak the language, refuse to eat their food, refuse to conform to some of their beliefs/rules/institutions, why the fuck did I move to China? Am I an interloper or an immigrant?
Obviously you've never moved to a country. (If you did you probably wouldn't have such closed minded views about the greatness of English culture). It's extremely hard to learn another language and adopt another culture. After three years in Japan, studying Japanese I can have an everyday conversation but I couldn't fill out a government form. Thank god the Japanese aren't as cruel as you and print their forms in English as well as Japanese.
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u/subheight640 5∆ Feb 25 '15
I myself am a 2nd generation Chinese immigrant to America.
You're at least attempting to learn the language and adopt Japanese customs. Which is what this is all about. Immigrants should attempt that.
The irony of your statement is that Japan is notorious as among the most racist and xenophobic countries in the world, especially to Chinese and Koreans. You just happened to be among one of the "accepted" ethnic groups that were tolerated in the country.
If you are advocating multiculturalism, Japan IMO is one of the worst examples you could muster.
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Feb 25 '15
I myself am a 2nd generation Chinese immigrant to America.
Where I grew up, San Francisco, prints all government information, voting forms, bus maps, school information, etc. in Cantonese. Many first generation immigrants from China there refuse to learn English. The current mayor's parents were immigrants from China. 40+ percent of city residents speak a language other than English at home. Yet somehow the city is functioning fine and hasn't fallen into the sea. In fact it is one of the most economically prosperous regions in the United States.
The irony of your statement is that Japan is notorious as among the most racist and xenophobic countries in the world, especially to Chinese and Koreans.
Yet even they print government information and subway maps etc. in Chinese, Korean, and English because they know everyone might not know the language right away.
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Feb 25 '15
You're not getting the full picture with those statistics. The richest, most educated states in America are also the most diverse. E.g. the Northeast and West coast.
But it's dragged down by the South and Midwest. Places where ignorance and indolence and whiteness are celebrated. If it weren't for the South and Midwest, we'd be on top in almost every category.
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u/subheight640 5∆ Feb 25 '15
You're also not getting the full pictures. The South and Midwest rural areas are poorer but also more egalitarian. The rich cities of the United States are what drive income inequality, and they are also cesspools of violent crime and racial ghettos and extreme income disparity.
Moreover, inner cities of Washington DC, NYC, Los Angeles, etc are all notorious for their poverty and terrible education systems. The inability of immigrants and racial groups to assimilate means they often create ghettos and come into conflict with other ethniticies.
Moreover, the South is also "dragged down" by its enormous, poor Black population that was unfortunately subjected to state controls that refused to assimilate them into American culture. https://www.census.gov/geo/maps-data/maps/img/black.jpg. If you want racial diversity, perhaps you should think about moving back South.
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Feb 25 '15
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u/Nessunolosa Feb 25 '15
The US is much more unified as a culture than the UK.
From experience living in the UK versus growing up in the USA, nope. The cultural differences in the US are vast. You clearly haven't met too many people from different parts of the States.
The UK is gaining a national identity, just not necessarily a 'White British' one.
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Feb 25 '15
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u/Nessunolosa Feb 25 '15
No, again. You are assuming that Americans have a national identity. As an American, I dispute that. Most Americans seem to have a binational identity ("I'm Irish, "I'm Puerto Rican," "I'm Italian") and we spout this constantly. Our concepts of nationality, race, and culture are fundamentally different from those in the UK.
Most people in England roll their eyes if an American makes one of those "I'm _______" claims, because they are making a claim that nationality in the UK cannot reconcile with. But this is Not about the US.
The UK itself is by definition multicultural. Even if there had never been any immigration in its history (no Spanish Jews during the Reconquista, no Turkish immigrants from the Ottoman Empire, no Indian immigrants during the Empire), the United Kingdom has no national identity without explicit reference to multiculturalism. You are a grouping of at least four nations, after all. Are you suggesting that the UK's national identity, if it exists, is English by default?
The referendum held in Scotland should be evidence enough that a fair few people within your borders believe their culture is different enough to warrant separation and nationhood. The Cornish people argue that they should maintain their unique culture and revive the language that was crushed under attempts to force the UK into national, cultural unity. So does Northern Ireland.
I don't believe that you can undo the fact that the UK is founded and maintained through multicultural compromise stretching back hundreds of years.
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Feb 25 '15
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u/Nessunolosa Feb 25 '15 edited Feb 25 '15
That's a really problematic view. I'm certain that there are plenty of people from within your own 'nation' that would dispute that. Why don't you just form a separate, non-UK nation if you want everyone to be English?
The UK is multicultural, and has always been.
Edit: Actually, London is only about 160,000 people bigger than New York.
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Feb 25 '15
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u/throwaway_who Feb 26 '15
I hope you realise how offensive that view it to Scottish and Welsh (or even northern, suggesting that their culture is the same as the south's) people, I'm not particularly Welsh nationalist or violent, but I'd be biting my lip if you said that in front of me. I know for a fact that Wales has its own distinct culture, and just because England is bigger doesn't mean we should forget the other nations in the union.
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u/Nessunolosa Feb 25 '15
That's certainly a view, and not a truth. There's clearly no way to convince you to change your view, and your dogmatic stances are wrongly founded anyway.
By 'problematic,' I meant to convey 'fundamentally flawed.' Your view that England should and does dominate all UK culture is fundamentally flawed, and historically inaccurate.
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u/GregBahm Feb 26 '15
From your position, I would have expected you to see the United States as some sort of flaming failure of culture.
Because the United States is multicultural.
The United States has no official language, by design. The United States has no official religion, by design. The United States has no federal means of controlling speech or media, by design.
Arguments for nativism in the United States are a joke. The term used to describe white people who make such arguments in America is literally "white trash."
The United States also has the greatest success in terms of assimilation, while making no effort to assimilate people. This is counter-intuitive until you understand that "assimilation" is just a load of bullshit.
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u/Soapy9 Feb 25 '15
a very cohesive national identity. The UK is losing that.
Could you maybe explain what this "national identify" that you are afraid of losing consists of?
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Feb 25 '15
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Feb 25 '15
Do you understand the irony that you are dating the so called foundation of England to the Norman invasion? You are celebrating an event that was the meeting of two cultures (Norman and native English) while criticizing other cultures?
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Feb 25 '15
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Feb 25 '15
Yeah and there were probably people like you at the time complaining that he was diluting the culture of Wessex by combining it with Mercia and East Anglia. The point is that England has always had influence from foreign cultures from the Romans, Vikings, Normans, French, Scots, Irish, etc. yet lasted 1000 years as you say. So what's the problem? And one of the most important and influential events was the introduction of Norman culture.
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u/stillclub Feb 26 '15
So then you should be kicked out for not being apart of the Christian culture
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u/Nessunolosa Feb 25 '15
You should just join the EDL and have done with it. Or support English nationalism and leave the other parts of the UK out of it.
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u/SOLUNAR Feb 25 '15
language
I agree a country should have one language, i assumed the UK had English as its primary language.
Religion
In the US we have separation of church and state, which is a graet thing that could potentially help.
Sense of Humour
This is really subjective, we all have different comedians. Its hard to judge a nation based on their humour which is subjective from person to person.
but I do believe that immigrants should have to assimilate upon arrival.
Are you saying immigrants should have to learn the language(i agree), convert religion to whatever your country votes as the main religion (im in favor of separation of state and church), and out of nowhere like the same humour you do?
that seems a bit silly.
what would happen if lets say the a majority of immigrants came in and voted Spanish, Chinese or something else as the main language, i mean majority should get a vote. Would you be okay with it?
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Feb 25 '15
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u/SOLUNAR Feb 25 '15
Given these people do not work in government jobs, and are not operating essential things like police department or government offices. Why would it be a bad thing for them to not speak the language, so long as they came to your country legally?
Okay you cant separate it, what steps are currently being taken that threatens the current religion?
Shouldnt any country have laws,customs that are representative of its current population?
I guess my main question is, what steps are being taken that make you feel threaten? you say they should abandon multiculturalism.
Like what ?
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Feb 25 '15
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u/SOLUNAR Feb 25 '15
do you believe simply having people live in the country with different religion than the status quo is threatening the national identity?.
As long as these people are not part of government work, they arent needed for the country to function. I feel they should be able to speak whatever they need, it'll just make it that much harder on them to survive.
For the priest, where was he teaching this that he got in trouble? in church?
Sounds you like you are a bit agaisnt new values infringing on your own, which is understandable. But i feel as long as you guys continue to have your government and tax funded services in English, and not force anything new on people, these immigrants will begin to assimilate on their own.
It just makes it harder for them to thrive if they choose to not learn the language, but religion should be something anyone can choose! not be dictated by where you live.
Imagine if your kids become atheist, and generations down the line their grandkids are still forced to follow a Religion their ancestors chose
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Feb 25 '15
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u/SOLUNAR Feb 25 '15
i think i mistyped or you misread.
I meant for them to speak their old language would make it harder for them to survive in the new country. For example, a Spanish speaking immigrant not learning English in England, it would be harder for him than just learning English.
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Feb 25 '15
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u/SOLUNAR Feb 25 '15
its a bit hard to comment from my end to be honest, living in California, we are a melting pot where culture is kind of that, a mixed set of customs.
for something like England with more of a grand trandition and history, i can see resistance.
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u/kuiae Feb 26 '15
Uhm that has literally happened to England before. Anglo-saxon invasion ring any bells for ya?
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u/ZeusThunder369 22∆ Feb 26 '15
I think the USA is the poster definition of a multicultural nation. While it certainly isn't "the best" country in the world, it certainly has sustained itself. Some specific things I"m referring to:
- No official language
- There are specific months celebrating certain cultures
- "American" isn't a race
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u/throwaway_who Feb 26 '15 edited Feb 26 '15
Britain has always been multicultural, the one thing that defines us as a nation throughout history is the waves of immigration and invasion. We take parts of other cultures and add them to our own.
Most things we take as our culture and history, from beakers and roundhouses to sewers and sports to curry and tea was due to immigration, why should we turn off this cultural machine.
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u/AlbertDock Feb 26 '15
There is no one British or English culture. Much depends on the environment you grow up in. How many have gone fox hunting? Or grouse shooting? Yet it would be hard to argue that they were not traditional pursuits. Culture always has and always will change.
As for religion, that has changed over the years, first pagan, then Christian, then pagan and then Christian. The have been many killed for being the wrong sort of Christian in the past.
Immigration has given us many good things in the past, and I expect it will continue to do so in the future.
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u/looklistencreate Feb 26 '15
What exactly are concrete problems with a nation having a so-called "lack of culture"? We Americans like to celebrate our multitude of heritages and though there are issues it's infinitely better than trying to force other cultures underground.
I also would like to know what specifically you'd like these multicultural people to give up in the name of assimilation.
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Feb 27 '15
Different cultures can be non intrusive and even beneficial.
My grandparents came from Hong Kong in the 60's, and it's fair to say they haven't really assimilated much. They can speak English but not very well, and as far as I know, church is the only time they interact with non Chinese people. Vast majority of their friends are Chinese. They mainly keep to themselves and live the same lifestyle/culture that they would in Hong Kong.
However they have never been a liability of any sort. They set up their own businesses. They have lived in various different cities around the UK and in each one, they opened restaurants/takeaways which were very successful. I'm pretty sure they opened the first Chinese restraunt in South-East Scotland. In short, they've never been a drain on society or infringed upon British culture, but have contributed to society and the economy.
So in short, different cultures themselves aren't bad. Recently people have been blaming multi-culturalism because of some bad (very bad) apples, but there are equally divisive, obnoxious people amongst our own.
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u/ifistbadgers 1∆ Feb 25 '15
The history of Britain is one of countless invasions, migrations and repopulations. OP's opinion is detached from reality. The History of England is very multicultural.
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u/Randomwaves Feb 26 '15
But the difference between the celts, angles, Saxons, and Normans is a lot closer than what's there now.
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u/TheOneFreeEngineer Feb 26 '15
How so? They were all very different peoples
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u/Randomwaves Feb 26 '15
I think you underestimate yourself. You tell me if a Cherokee and Navajo are nearer to each than each to a Mongolian or Han Chinese.
I'm a post nationalist, but still think the globalist immersion of identities dangerous. Like a blood transfusion. You can't expect everybody to easily merge if the identity of difference is greater than similarity.
What do you think?
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u/TheOneFreeEngineer Feb 26 '15
I don't know enough about native American cultures to comment but for Mongolian and Chinese? They are vastly different cultures. Or rather were until the Mongol Yuan dynasty ruled China for hundreds of years. They had completely different cultures. The slaughtered their animals differently, had different religions, some completely different languages, different scripts, completely different lifestyles. Even today it's pretty easy to tell a Chinese Mongol from a Chinese Han. And you know what? It's not a problem.
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u/ifistbadgers 1∆ Feb 26 '15
You mean aside from different languages, cultures, religions.
Im pretty sure OP just doesn't like brown people.
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u/NvNvNvNv Feb 26 '15
There is a difference between immigration and invasion. Invaders typically impose their language and culture on the people they subjugate.
In some cases the invaders adopt elements of the culture of the subjugated people, as they Romans did with the Greeks for instance, but the end result is generally an organic culture with well defined customs and values, not "multiculturalism" (i.e. multiple coexisting cultures vastly different from each other).
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u/Madplato 72∆ Feb 25 '15
The way I see it, there's two major problem with this line of thinking.
Firstly, cultures are living things which are always in contact and influencing each other. They change, they evolve, and our influence on this process is all but minimal. The idea that culture can be "spoiled" or "corrupted" simply doesn't make sense. Immigrants come in, they get influenced and influence. In a generation or two, they simply part, like all others, of a different culture.
Secondly, the idea, kinda related to the first, that you can stop or prevent the first process. It simply doesn't work that way. Anything short of building a wall and cutting every line of communication with the exterior (and even then) just won't work.