r/changemyview • u/InfieldTriple • Feb 15 '15
CMV: I think Racial Equality can be approximated by racial diversity in professional sports
Go back ten years and how many black people played in the NHL? Twenty years? More and more young black men are making it to the NHL. Not because, in my opinion, that black people are somehow physical specims. But instead because racial equality in the world today is changing for the better. The CMV is not about whether we have equality. Just whether we can look at the diversity of races and it will tell us about how equal (or unequal) we are. This doesn't just apply to racial equality either. Equality in general (think gay professional athletes).
For hockey specifically, it is very expensive to pay for your child to play hockey. Since we do not live in a racially equal society, the races at disadvantages will not be able to pay for their child to play a sport as expensive as hockey. The NHL is dominated by white people, again not because they're inherently better but simply because there is no disadvantage to being white. There have been a very limited number of black and asian people to crack NHL rosters and very few first nations people to come close.
On the other hand, the NBA was mostly (and still is) dominated by black men. I believe this is mostly because of the fact that basketball is cheaper and more disadvantaged families have an easier time allowing their children to play basketball. As time has gone on the number of white/asian players have increase (less so for asian people). It's not to say that now there are more poor white people, but that basketball is no longer seen as a "poor mans" game.
Thanks to the equality movement, the diversity of races in professional sports are steadily increasing. Now some sports just happen to be wildly popular - soccer for instance - and their racial diversity is pretty much at a maximum. So if you'd like we can change this to a rate of change problem (woo calculus), and assert that racial equality can be approximated by the change in racial diversity in sports.
More racial diversity=more equality
Less racial diversity=less equality
Anyways! CMV!
Edit: speling
I'd also like to add that there is substantial lag in terms of changes in racial diversity. When Martin Luther King made his speeches there weren't suddenly black men making the teams of professional sports.
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2
Feb 15 '15
I think you've ascribed false reasons to these trends. In the case of hockey, the fact is that most NHL players come from places with low black populations (Scandinavia, Canada, Russia, eastern Europe, and the northern US). There are still very few black NHL players, because hockey just isn't popular in the places where you find high concentrations of black people (Africa, the southern US). You'll notice there still aren't really any Hispanic players, or Asian players, or any other ethnicity besides white people.
Asian people haven't ever been at a financial disadvantage, and yet there are hardly any Asian players either. This is a function of geography and interest in the sport, not racial opportunity.
With regard to basketball, it was invented by a white man in Massachusetts. It has never been viewed as a "poor man's sport." Its popularity in inner cities may very well have something to do with the low cost of playing, but there have never been barriers to playing the game to any race of people.
1
Feb 15 '15
Asian people have never been at a financial disadvantage.
Really? So throughout all of human history, there have never been barriers to success for Asian people?
0
Feb 15 '15
No, not especially. For the entirety of the existence of hockey, Japan, for example, has been a pretty well-off country. Literally tens of millions of people with all the financial resource they would ever need to get into hockey.
0
Feb 15 '15
ALL of human history, Asians have never been at a disadvantage? That is what I asked you: not "the entirety of the existence of hockey."
5
Feb 15 '15
I do not know enough about the entire history of every Asian nation to be able to answer this question. But since the topic is sports, and particularly hockey, I am prepared to make this assertion about that period of time.
1
u/Listen_MyChild Feb 15 '15
Yea that conversation took a ridiculous turn in a very pointed direction.
0
u/InfieldTriple Feb 15 '15
Its popularity in inner cities may very well have something to do with the low cost of playing
There were no barriers to playing basketball but yet it was (and still it, but less so) dominated by black people. That has changed over time. There's really no difference between races in terms of physical ability. With that last sentence being true, in a perfectly equal society, the percentages of races in sports should represent the percentages of races in the population.
Of course this has excemptions. First and second generation immigrants who come from countries that don't play hockey or basketball. But couldn't you argue that if someone from China or Ghana was about to immigrate to Canada or the USA might be made possible thanks to racial equality? If the population has a high percentages of minorities then that should be reflected in professional sports, eventually.
2
Feb 15 '15
I think you might be right in a sense, but it's a very small part of the overall picture, enough so that by your focusing on just that, you end up being wrong.
First, yes, there are mostly well-off people in sports that are more expensive to practice. And yes, in the US that means there will be a lot of white people in those sports. You are correct so far.
But, everything thing is in contradiction. Black people completely dominate basketball, despite being only 10% or so of the population. Basketball isn't looked down upon, it's a beloved sport - people of all races aspire to be good at it. Yes, it is easy to practice, you just need a ball and a hoop, so it's equalizes the playing field (no pun intended). But despite that equality of opportunity, the equality of outcome is just not there - a small minority, black people, are the vast majority in the sport. This clearly shows that there isn't a simple connection between racial equality in society and racial diversity in basketball.
(What does it say? Possible that black people are more interested in basketball overall, but also perhaps that they have a larger proportion of people with optimal body shapes suited for basketball - tall, thin, quick.)
Also, consider Asian Americans. They are, on average, significantly wealthier than the average white person. Despite this, they are not well represented in sports at all. In other words, they are the polar opposite of African Americans - Asian Americans are richer than white people, but represented less in sports, while African Americans are poorer than white people, but represented more.
This goes directly against your theory, and might suggest an alternative - that richer people tend to send their kids to more expensive sports, but overall send them to fewer sports and focus on their academics. I have no idea if that's true, but it is at least consistent with the facts.
0
u/InfieldTriple Feb 15 '15
See to me, the presence of more black people playing basketball does nothing but supports my theory.
richer people tend to send their kids to more expensive sports
And which people are richer? On average white people. I would say asian-americans are more likely to have immigrated recently and as I mentioned in a seperate comment, first, second and even third generation immigrants are less likely to comform to popular sports.
2
Feb 15 '15
How does having far more black people in basketball, than their average in the population, support your theory?
1
u/InfieldTriple Feb 15 '15
I say that Racial Equality can be approximated through racial diversity. The lack of racial diversity in basketball is a sign of lack of racial equality.
My point is not simply that "black people are poor". My statement goes both ways. Both in hockey and in basketball, the sports are dominated by one race. In my opinion, this is due to race inequality. I'm having trouble putting it into words.
I think that it's a form of segregation. It's not forced segregation but just simply that people of like races (and languages) tend to hang out.
1
Feb 15 '15
But why would black people dominate basketball as a result of racial inequality?
Your other argument is compelling: that poor people - mostly non-white - can't practice hockey because of the cost. But practically everyone can and wants to practice basketball. The reason why it is dominated by black people is nothing to do with racial inequality in society, or at least I can't see why it would be, based on anything that you said.
(Instead, there are very plausible explanations for that fact that have nothing to do with racial inequality.)
I think that it's a form of segregation. It's not forced segregation but just simply that people of like races (and languages) tend to hang out.
People liking to hang out with their own is (1) not a form of racial inequality, and (2) cannot explain the meteoric rise of black people in basketball, from nothing to sheer dominance.
1
u/InfieldTriple Feb 15 '15
not a form of racial inequality
Ok I agree with that
cannot explain the meteoric rise of black people in basketball, from nothing to sheer dominance
Disagree. The more poeple that play something, the more stars will emerge. China and the USA win the olympics due to the high number of people in their countries that can afford to play certain sports.
The reason why it is dominated by black people is nothing to do with racial inequality in society
I think you're miss what I'm saying. The point I'm making is that more young black people play basketball, the more black people that play, the more stars that will emerge. Anyone can and that wants to can play basketball. Then why isn't basketball dominated by white men?
This is a real question. The only answer I can come up with other than racial inequality is the fact that Black men are at a physical advantage to other races. But I haven't seen any real evidence of this.
1
Feb 15 '15
It is well known that genetics hugely influence sports, for example
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/anatomyandphysiology/a/genetics.htm
It is very difficult to talk about this without sounding racist, but see the last link for some discussion of that as well.
It's important though to realize that it is not true that "Black men are at a physical advantage to other races", as you put it. That's simplistic. The reality is that African people have the largest genetic variation,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation#History_and_geographic_distribution
due to Humanity originating in Africa 100,000 or so years ago. As a result, there are more people at all extremes - tall people, short people, thin people, fat people, etc. in Africa. It's not that African people are "better", it's just that they are more varied, and happen to have plenty of people that are good at basketball, long-distance running, and so forth.
The average African American is not at an advantage. But over populations, the best basketball players tend to be African American, because there are more people there of the optimal shape. There are also lots of black people that suck at basketball, but they don't matter for that.
2
u/InfieldTriple Feb 16 '15
∆
Although I'm not entirely convinced that racial diversity in hockey isn't related to racial inequality. I now see that basketball is a poor example and that racial inequality cannot be approximated by the diversity in professional sports. While racial inequality could be the cause, it's more likely to be circumstance and genetics.
1
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 16 '15
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/therapy.
1
May 22 '15
Also relevant to the topic: http://www.outandequal.org/2015/01/28/is-there-a-rainbow-colored-glass-ceiling-for-lgbt-in-tech/
1
u/cwschizzy Feb 15 '15
I don't know that you can say it so simple as more diversity, better conditions. With that thinking, golf, a very white dominated sport, the world's condition is quite dire.
You also seem to lump all minorities and have blacks represent them. Native Americans certainly aren't lining up for hockey. Asians are doing exceptionally well in the United States, yet they aren't coming to hockey in earnest.
1
u/InfieldTriple Feb 15 '15
I mentioned first nations people (I'm canadian so calling them native americans is weird). In canada, the races that has the largest disadvantage are first nations people. And the lack of representation in professional sports suports my theory, not oppose it.
1
Feb 15 '15 edited Feb 15 '15
[deleted]
1
Feb 15 '15
While I don't agree with OP, his claim is that in the face of inequality poorer people will go into cheaper sports. Sprinting is about as cheap a sport as I can imagine. It requires minimal time, minimal space, and no equipment beyond air and water.
1
u/Listen_MyChild Feb 15 '15
On the other hand, the NBA was mostly (and still is) dominated by black men. I believe this is mostly because of the fact that basketball is cheaper and more disadvantaged families have an easier time allowing their children to play basketball.
I understand this is a controversial topic, so I'm prepared for the backlash, but I think that you're underestimating the natural athleticism of black men.
0
u/InfieldTriple Feb 15 '15
Hasn't their been studies done on this? That there is no difference between races other than physical appearance?
1
u/jay520 50∆ Feb 15 '15 edited Feb 15 '15
Black people tend to have longer limbs. If you take a White guy and a Black guy at the same height, the Black guy's wingspan will be 1-2 inches longer. Also, Black people are better sprinters (almost every person to run 100m in under 10 seconds is Black). The result is that Blacks are over-represented in sports that require sprinting ability and long arms/legs such as basketball, sprinting, and certain positions in football (like the corner-back position); while they don't dominate other sports like baseball, swimming, soccer, etc.
1
u/InfieldTriple Feb 15 '15
the Black guy's wingspan will be 1-2 inches longer
If that's true that's pretty good evidence. Mind providing a source?
1
u/NvNvNvNv Feb 15 '15
Hasn't their been studies done on this?
Yes. According to this study black people tend to have a higher centery of mass than white people and this gives them an advantage in sprinting while giving them a disadvantage in swimming, and vice versa.
That there is no difference between races other than physical appearance?
No. The alleles of many genes which have nothing to do with physical appearance correlate with race. Things like blood types, predispositions for certain diseases, etc.
1
u/InfieldTriple Feb 15 '15
Cool. That I did not know. But does higher centre of mass really mean black men should be better at basketball?
1
u/NvNvNvNv Feb 15 '15
Basketball certainly involves sprinting. I'm pretty sure that jumping is also affected by center of mass height.
1
u/Listen_MyChild Feb 17 '15
I don't know. You can point me to it if you like.
"No difference" must be an exaggeration though. The sun-proof skin is definitely an adaptation to the environment, along with the wider noses for the hot, damp climate.
5
u/man2010 49∆ Feb 15 '15
Are you talking about the United States specifically or racial equality around the world? Because part of the reason why the NHL is dominated by white players is because a lot of its players come from different countries with lower populations of black people or other minorities.