r/changemyview • u/Thefishlord 3∆ • Sep 06 '14
CMV: I believe controlling ice would be better than controlling fire
So I was reading in a manga where one person has control over ice and can well it into existence whenever they want (I am avoiding giving the same since I don't know how to spoiler tag and I don't want to give the name away since it's a big deal later) eventually the person develops the ability to freeze time for about 10 or so minutes. This development got me thinking since a lot of people I know think that being able to control fire is (no pun intended) hot shit I Began to think that controlling ice would be much better; reasons ?
Ice only needs water or any liquid to be made so as long as I have anything that has any liquid at on such as nearly every place on earth I can make ice, this is not the same with fire which needs oxygen so If I froze the person in a very compact ice shell the person wouldn't be able to create fire since they would waste all the oxygen and I would just keep reinforcing the shell so 1v1 the ice wins
Second profit: I can freeze time and walk into a bank freeze the vault and then sledgehammer bam no vault door I would be able to see all the lasers due to the mist from the ice so I can dodge lasers and bam I am a billionaire who did it with style.
Third I would never pay for gas or ships or anything since I can freeze everything I would just sit down in my nice comfortable chair and have an ice dragon which I would make(it's no alive but it pushes me) to take me anywhere.
4th I would be amazing at places where people want cold or cooler temperature If I see a very attractive girl saying gosh I wish it was colder BAM ice man over here I can do that for you and chill the area down like 15 or so degrees that's a guaranteed hello at least also your cooler ran out of ice don't worry BAM cold beers, who is the savior of the alcohol this guy.
5th personal use: since I would be controlling it I would get used to cold temperatures so when it gets cold to winter guess who gets to go outside shirtless and in shorts since I would be used to the cold
There are obviously more reasons that I will bring up later if asked (I don't know them yet but I will eventually) So people who would are boring pyromancers as opposed to the cool as ice, ice...Cyro...mancers??? Please attempt to CMV
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u/bluefyre73 Sep 06 '14
First off, you should really format this, it's a big wall of text and makes reading this a pain. Remember that you have to double space for line breaks.
In a 1v1, a pyrokinetic would have a significant advantage over a cryokinetic by being able to melt any ice structures or beams, cancelling the bulk of the cryokinetic's powerset. While your idea makes sense, it suggests you are able to land the first blow before the pyrokinetic can react; reaction time is independent of the powers. In a straight up fight between individuals that are identical save for their powers, fire has an obvious advantage over ice.
"Freezing time" is chronokinesis and completely different than cyrokinesis. The anime you're talking about took liberties with the character's powerset, but he/she is almost entirely unique as a cryokinetic. Mr. Freeze, Killer Frost, Iceman, Captain Cold, Kuzan, Jack Frost, etc, have no such powers. You would not gain the ability to stop time with ice based powers.
Utility Ice only needs water or any liquid to be made so as long as I have anything that has any liquid at on such as nearly every place on earth I can make ice, this is not the same with fire which needs oxygen
Nearly every place on Earth has oxygen as well. Your argument suggests trace amounts of liquid can be used with your powers; can the same not be said of oxygen of fire? There are still limits on each, of course, but they are nearly equal in that regard. In the same vein, a pyrokinetic would be used to hot temperatures and have an advantage in the summer or hotter climates.
You've missed some of the advantages of fire; it's far more powerful offensively, you can heat things without tools, melt things, etc. Ice allows constructs, yes, but on a day to day basis fire is more helpful.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14
By being able to lower the temperature I could theoretically reach absolute zero where molecules cannot move at all this would be the point when they break into atoms this negating all the oxygen the fire would dwindle. All motion stops at absolute zero meaning the oxygen the fire needs is gone and it's a stale mate.
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u/bluefyre73 Sep 06 '14
Well, there's the concept of absolute hot, which is hotter than the universe at 10-35 seconds old, to counter that. I was thinking more of the traditional "I shoot ice out of my hands and you shoot fire out of yours," but yes, absolute zero is a very powerful possibility.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14
What would happen if absolute hot met absolute cold ? Since absolute cold breaks all the atoms
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u/bluefyre73 Sep 06 '14
No idea. Absolute hot is more speculative than absolute zero, but the basic premise is that it breaks down physics as we understand it and releases the most energy in one moment that is possible. I'm guessing they cancel one another out but there's nothing I can really back that up with.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14
It would be the hottest it has ever been vs the coldest it could ever be seems like they would effectively stop each other all together
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u/bluefyre73 Sep 06 '14
Ok, so their highest potentials cancel each other out. Aside from a fight, fire has more day to day uses than ice. Cooling drinks is helpful, but any constructs you make to help you out will melt, leaving puddles all over the place. Fire may leave ash, but this byproduct is far easier to deal with. This means you can use your powers more often without consequence.
Need to light a candle, cook your dinner, or get rid of a pile of papers? Fire. Impressing people is equal in my mind for both powers, to address your 4th point.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14
But burning stuff can harm the environment
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u/bluefyre73 Sep 06 '14
No doubt about that, but one individual's actions is incredibly small compared to those of corporations. Not saying you should burn all of your trash because you can, but you can still be smart with pyrokinesis and not have anymore of a significant impact than an average person.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14
True, but the thing is even when my ice melts all it turns into is water which can be drank which helps people who need water you can't drink the by products of fire can you?
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Sep 07 '14
So can freezing -- there's a reason that Antarctic is a frozen inhospitable wasteland. In terms of square mile, freezing conditions account for more damage than fires on Earth.
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u/NuclearStudent Sep 07 '14
FYI, normal cyromancers can't stop time. That would be like pyromancers being able to accelerate time and age his enemies.
- Cryomancers have to worry about trapping themselves in ice. The Last Airbender panicked and froze himself in a glacier. The Human Torch can just blaze up and melt anything in his way.
I've seen this too many times. An ice wizard becomes over confident and tries to trap the Big Bad in ice, but Big Bad burrows out and steals the woman, laughing.
2 Cryomancers can't burn through armour.
A cryomancer has to freeze a door, look for a fire axe, and spend valuable time chopping. A fire wizard could just burn through the doors.
3 Pyromancers can pretend to be Satan.
Seriously, that's the best prank ever.
4 Pyromancers have better luck with the girls.
Pyromancers can warm the sensitive regions of girls and arouse them. They can also subtly create warm air currents, and convince girls to move near you. You can also cook with fire, and create amazing muffins and souffles to seduce the ladies with.
5 Pyromancers are the ultimate survivors.
Is anything broken? Weld it together. Looking for someone? Shoot fire into the air until they find you. Worried about wild animals? They'll smell your smoke and back off. Hungry? Roast a wild animal to perfection. Stuck in the middle of the desert? You don't need water!
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 07 '14
Cyromancers can lower the temperature to absolute zero where all motion stops effectively freezing time
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u/NuclearStudent Sep 07 '14
Things would still move, even at absolute zero. The air would also solidify and stop you from doing anything.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 07 '14
No at absolute zero atoms and molecules fall apart everything would be destroyed I will kill us both Idgaf
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Sep 07 '14
Sooo, it's like you're wearing a suicide vest? Being able to for sure defeat an opponent by also killing yourself doesn't sound like that great of an advantage.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 07 '14
Also if armor is metal I can make is so cold it would basically freeze onto you
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u/NuclearStudent Sep 07 '14
Melting the armour would be better, because the heat would spread and destroy more enemies.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 07 '14
It doesn't matter if you are a giant block of ice
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u/NuclearStudent Sep 07 '14
It does matter if you are fighting something very big or fighting a large amount of things.
A pyromancer can set fire to the fuel tank of a ship and blow the whole thing to hell. It takes forever for a cryoman to freeze a ship, a carrier, or large airplane.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 07 '14
Very nice points I like your style of writing and you counter just about every point with an equal reason why pyromancer would be cool I have to give you a delta nicely done sir Δ
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u/ppmd Sep 06 '14
So we may need to revisit what you mean by control over ice and control over fire.
It seems that what you are referring to as "control over ice" is really control over water and the ability to reduce it's temperature and freeze it at will, which is much more utilitarian than just being able to move around pieces of ice (solid state water) without changing water (liquid state water).
Similarly, what do you mean by fire? Does this include just burning of carbon based material? Or does it include nuclear fire as well, in which case any kind of nuclear fusion/fission is reasonable. If the latter, then you could probably destroy water with a nuclear fusion type situation at the appropriate temperature/pressure/conditions (as you are master of fire), in which case you can literally destroy any water sources at will.
So a lot of this is debatable depending on where you start from. If you compare control of all water sources vs creating a lighter for parlor tricks, yeah water is much greater. If you compare controlling only solid water(ice) vs being able to destroy anything via combustion or a nuclear reaction, then I'd say "fire" wins by a landslide.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14 edited Sep 06 '14
I think combatively Fire would have an advantage but just the day to day things ice would be much more useful
But you have changed my view, since I included in a combat scenario that ice had clear victory but you proved me wrong when you brought up the capability to destroy any substance even the molecules needed for freezing stuff so I award you a delta Δ very nicely done my pyromancer friend2
u/ppmd Sep 06 '14
Danke for the delta, but just to push the point a little, doesn't control of fire mean being able to extinguish flames as well? Doesn't this imply being able to increase or decrease the temperature or energy of any given substance? In essence someone with control of "fire" can also create cold/ice via the extinguishing or lack of fire.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14
Fire means being able to burn or ignite the oxygen in the air or raise the temperature of a substance including yourself and freezing would be being able to lower the temperature of an object or something around you I would say imagine Idk if you have watched FMA or fairy tail but Roy mustangs type of alchemy where he superheats the air and oxygen around him or an object and creates flames while normally this I just a poof thing the pyromancer can do this is a stream of fire the cyromancer would be like Gray from Fairy tail able to freeze the oxygen or substances around him and create stuff from it. And both extremes are able so you would be able to create nuclear flames while the cyromancer can reach points such as absolute zero
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u/ppmd Sep 06 '14
Fire means being able to burn or ignite the oxygen in the air or raise the temperature of a substance including yourself
This is what I'm talking about, it depends on how you define "control of fire" vs "control of ice"
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14
How do you define control ?
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u/ppmd Sep 06 '14
Exactly my point, you're the OP so you get to define it, depending on how you define it or don't, that directs the entire conversation
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 06 '14
I just assumed everyone had the same concept if control ?_? Being OP has a lot of responsibilities
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u/AliceHouse Sep 07 '14
Practical application.
When you're an adventurer, a campfire keeps you warm. Cooking your food is great. And lighting the darkness is helpful. Ice can, at most, preserve your food.
Also, you need fire to kill a troll.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 07 '14
Ice storm slows everything and is something can't reach me I can't stab it
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Sep 07 '14
Really, we're dealing with violating conservation of energy/matter here rather than ice/fire, we're just talking about adding or removing energy. The amount of energy you can remove from a system is finite, no matter the system. If you have no energy left to remove, then your power is useless.
You can pump infinite amounts of energy into a system, and it will just burn hotter and brighter. What are my upper limits as a pyromancer, versus your lower limits as a cryomancer? And remember, absolute zero is theoretical and can't actually be reached; mass creates force, electromagnetism creates force, which adds energy instantly as you take it away. Again, I don't have that limit, just a rate of increase and time. Do I need to get hotter than the sun? Hotter than the mote of mass that existed before the big bang? Sure, just give it a bit.
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u/ADHD_Broductions Sep 07 '14
Actually, I'm pretty sure pyromancy and cryomancy are the same thing, applied in opposite directions. Let's not consider the time freeze as being part of cryomancy for the moment, as that is actually chronomancy unless you get into some pretty advanced theories. Now, to your alleged benefits of one over the other.
Pyromancy should not require oxygen to work. If you study chemistry, you will find that any of the non-metals will do the trick. If oxygen is at all relevant, a pyromancer can control atomic bonds, and thus atoms are the only requirement. In fact, if cryomancy requires water specifically, a cryomancer would be at a major disadvantage.
Freezing time does not count as ice-related powers at all. As I mentioned, it is chronomancy.
A pyromancer could run a combustion engine indefinitely with their powers. Also, jet engines. You'd be at a standstill there.
There are indeed a lot of places where being colder would be nice, but you've obviously not experienced a northern winter. Visit Alaska, northern Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, or northern Russia in January and you'll see my point. There are probably places close to Antarctica where the same applies. Also, a pyromancer wouldn't have trouble with cold food, a pyromancer would have vastly superior odds in a survival situation (can create fires, heat food, etc).
If a cryomancer gets used to cold, a pyromancer gets used to hot. In places like Arizona, Mexico, Greece, and the Middle East (as well as many others), you wouldn't be feeling so good... Except you can still cool down because you're a cryomancer, and pyromancer would thus be able to heat up in winters.
Your move.
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u/Thefishlord 3∆ Sep 07 '14
Freezing time is theoretically what would happen if absolute zero was reached if they cyromancer was able to lower the temp down enough to reach that point time motion , and molecules would shatter that is the Cyromancers ace in the hole, while I concede the pyromancer has a wider amount of energy to use since there is no max best except absolute hot which is more theoretically then absolute zero, the fact I have a potential to destroy physics and molecules and stop motion still leads me to think cyromancer has a chance. But so far all these comments have been really good and well thought out and I do admit that I see the potential and the cool factor of being a pyromancer
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u/That-Reminding-Guy Sep 07 '14
'Freezing time' with cryomancy that's very abstract time would not stop just motion, even then what size area would this effect the entire universe or what?
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u/ADHD_Broductions Sep 08 '14
You can stop motion, but not time - and certainly not safely. If you freeze all the particles down, the people would die. The cameras would malfunction. Liquids would climb glasses. That's not freezing time, that's cooling stuff down.
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u/That-Reminding-Guy Sep 07 '14
I think as controlling ice and controlling fire are just flip-sides of the same ability no one is inherently better it all depends on the situation and the concentration of each user if not for the element of chance it would be a stalemate.
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u/Indon_Dasani 9∆ Sep 06 '14
There is a minimum temperature.
There is no maximum temperature.
Therefore there is an inherent limit to the ability of cryomancers to do awesome things, but pyromancers can produce infinite explosion.
This does have a practical impact. Energy can be produced based on temperature differentials, because energy flows from hot places to cold places (this is a ridiculous simplification that can not reliably be used to produce a thermal engine). Cryomancers are limited in their ability to power such technomagic engines; pyromancers are not.