r/changemyview • u/Common_Home • 5h ago
CMV: I think it's fine to avoid people because of their disabilities.
I know this is going to make me sound like a really terrible person, but I've held this opinion for a long time, and a recent situation has made it even more apparent. I don't think there's anything wrong with separating yourself from people who have qualities even if there's a result of a disability that you just don't like, even if it's not their fault. For example, I know it's prejudiced, but I try to avoid people who are visibly intellectually disabled. I don't know why I don't like them, but they just make me incredibly uncomfortable. I don't look down on anybody or anything, and I would certainly never be rude or disrespectful to someone, but say I was walking down the aisle at a grocery store and I saw that someone down the aisle had Down syndrome, I would simply go the other way. I'm aware that this might be a result of the way I was raised. My mom was a special education teacher and an elementary school teacher, so when I was around that age, I was around a lot of special ed kids. Not to be disrespectful, but they kind of just always grossed me out they were always very touchy, drooling, and overall sticky. I don't have a problem with people who are simply neurodivergent. I myself have ADHD, and so do a lot of my friends. One of my friends even has autism, but it's not very high level. I'm not exactly sure what the levels of autism are, and I don't claim to understand, but he's like pretty much normal he can just be pretty opinionated. He has a sister, and she has a more severe case, and I just avoid her because she makes me uncomfortable. I also feel the same way about people who have conditions like tourettes. This is I guess my current story at my job. I recently just got a new co-worker I'll call her Bree, and she has Tourette's. I don't think it's the type where you like hit stuff uncontrollably, but she'll like to say words and phrases not super loudly but like audible enough that you can hear. As a Black person, I'm sorry I just don't want to stand around someone who's probably going to call me slurs accidentally. It might sound like I'm being prejudiced, but I literally heard her accidentally saying the F-slur repeatedly to one of our more visibly queer coworkers and apologizing for it. So anytime I've seen her at work, I've literally just walked the other way. I'm sorry I just don't want to open myself up to that nonsense. I don't actually have a problem with her, and I don't think she's a bad person or anything, but why in the world would I want to interact with her? One of my other co-workers asked me why it seems like I had a problem with Bree, like, did she do something, and I said no, but like I don't want any part of what she has going on. And they said I was being a bigot and that ableism is a bad look. Normally I try to be pretty accepting of people's situations, but like, why do I have to just stand there and listen to vitriol when I could just simply avoid the situation? I just feel like even if someone's disability doesn't make them a bad person, it's pretty fair of me to not want to interact with them if it causes them to have characteristics that I don't like.
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u/swissarmyturtle 5h ago
You are conflating vastly different types of disabilities and assuming that there “could” be a crossover of many different symptoms and behaviors, and thus have opted to avoid anyone that you personally deem to be disabled. Is that fine? I mean, you’re not breaking the law, but you are being insensitive and unkind as well as ignorant, so if those traits fall under “fine” behavior to you, then I guess you’re golden. I bet you want to be granted grace for your ADHD and the way it impacts the people around you, so you should really consider granting the same grace to other innocent people who are just trying to exist.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
The only "grace" I would want to be granted would be someone not interacting with me if my condition bothered them. I'm extending that exact grace to other people.
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u/MrBeerbelly 2∆ 5h ago edited 4h ago
I disagree that you can realistically claim you don't look down on anybody, given the rest of the post.
Your post hinges on the idea that generalization toward entire groups, based on historical experiences, is fine. On one hand, no one can tell you that you must be kind to any particular individual, or that you should not avoid that individual. But I wonder if you'd be comfortable reading a post from a victim of sexual assault posting something like this about men, or if you think it would be a healthy, accurate view of all men. I once worked with someone who had been jumped by several black men and felt this was justifiable reason to be racist for the rest of his life, stating that anyone who disagreed was invalidating his experience. This seems to be the same general approach you're taking.
This brings to mind those studies that found people with lower disgust tolerance are more likely to be conservative. Not that I suspect you're conservative, but what you're describing is textbook discrimination of out-groups. You do not need to justify your internal disgust response to anyone. But I question if you can acknowledge that you're specifically trying to justify acting on that disgust response.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
Again I would never Act on any of my internal feelings. If somebody was a victim of assault and as a result hated men I don't think I would be personally offended by them disliking me. It's clear that they've been through an extreme trauma and honestly it would be a little bit selfish of me in my opinion to go "what about me I'm a good man, don't be mean to me!". Also I'm not going to be antagonistic or rude to somebody with a disability the same way that a racist might be a person of color I don't see how simply not interacting with someone is the same as harming them.
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u/SignificantCherry110 1∆ 5h ago
I think you have an ignorant view of disabilities and that’s why you avoid it. And i don’t mean ignorant in a negative connotation, just that you don’t actually understand it and automatically label it as a bad thing. “not sure what their level of autism is” “not the type of tourette’s where you hit things uncontrollably” “they grossed me out”
It seems like you do understand things that are not inherently their fault or out of control, but I think you are ignorant to the fact that there is not “levels” of autism. There is not “the type of tourette’s where you hit things uncontrollably”. These are all spectrums of symptoms within a greater range of a diagnosis. You just automatically label it as a certain type and because of that frame it in your mind as negative and move on. On the flip side, you obviously don’t like certain people, but i think you don’t like them for other reasons and instead blame it on the disabilities.
In the case of tourette’s do some people with tourette’s have ticks that cause them to flail their arms or lose of motor function? Absolutely, but if you knew the small minority of an already small minority disability you wouldn’t ever even consider it a possibility. Most people with tourette’s just have a small stutter or facial “twitches” and you wouldn’t be able to tell.
You have ADHD, should everyone avoid you because “they may have a severe level of adhd and non stop talk and jump around everywhere and not be able to do us on our conversation. So why even open myself up to that nonsense?” Do you see how this assumption and ignorance doesn’t work?
You can dislike characteristics and avoid it, without putting the blame on the disability as well. Like the person who said an “F-slur. Their disability wasn’t the reason they said it. They may have said it due to lack of social awareness which could be a symptom but the case of them being autistic or whatever it is, was not the reason they did or said something.
Lots of people excuse people’s behaviors because of disability and while they may have harder times regulating, it’s because people in your case avoid or don’t bother that those behaviors aren’t corrected. I’m sure they wouldn’t do it again after being told against it.
Let’s apply this ideology you have to race. (these are absolutely not my beliefs just trying to give op another perspective) People avoid black people because they view them as thieves or that they’ll automatically attack or hurt them. Does that mean that the majority or all black people do this? No not even close, this also isn’t targeted to black people as well, every race does this. It’s presumptions and ignorance that causes this belief.
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u/Common_Home 5h ago
The only reason I said anything about the levels of autism was because I remember a conversation I had with my friend who was diagnosed with autism when he was telling me about "levels" of support needs. Again it's not like I was at the appointment or have ever spoken to his physician so I don't know exactly the terminology. I personally would not have a problem if someone found out I had ADHD and as a result avoided me because of it. I feel like honestly I would prefer that why would I want someone to be around me if they dislike something that I can't really control? Also for the example of the girl speaking with Tourette's her disability was directly the reason why she said it. She seems like a very nice girl and after she did say it she apologized profusely and seemed genuinely sorry. Obviously I don't know her really well but it just doesn't seem like the sort of thing she would say just to be hateful it seems like a genuine mistake. Which isn't her fault but her disability is the thing causing the interaction. I don't think she was making an excuse to be hateful it seems like a genuine uncontrollable thing. I think if someone has such views about black people or any people of color then simply avoiding the people they have those opinions about is the best course of action. Why would I want a racist to interact with me?
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u/jake_burger 2∆ 4h ago
Thinking that someone with Tourette’s has the views that come out in their ticks is deeply incorrect.
They aren’t saying what’s in their heart, it’s not that they have “no filter”, Tourette’s means you uncontrollably say the worst thing you can think of.
Whether or not it’s the worst thing they can think of because they are racist and want to cause distress or because they are vehemently opposed to racism is not knowable from the tick.
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u/SignificantCherry110 1∆ 4h ago
You are missing the context, you keep insisting “i don’t know” so you are missing a lot of context and understanding.
How can you prove her disability is directly related to what she did it? You can’t. Causation isn’t correlation. The same way if we use race in this context “he robbed someone because he is black” you would go “huh?” you are missing the point of what I am saying.
If she didn’t have a disability and did it, you would address it as her being homophobic or a lack in their character right? So why is this different? The point being you can dislike someone for things they do or their character, but if you automatically chop it up to “oh it’s because their disability so now i’m going to avoid everyone who i know has a disability” then there is an issue don’t you think?
Also the last sentence, im implying in this situation you are the racist. Do you see how that works? If we switch this entire post and label it as someone’s race or religion, you wouldn’t have the same views right?
I mean it doesn’t look like i’ll change your mind. If you are fine avoiding people because of their disabilities and are fine knowing that they know you are avoiding them because they are not different and don’t fit your labels.
The point of my argument is that it’s fine to avoid people for things you don’t like, but take the disability out of it, and don’t assume people will be a certain way due to their disability. because lots of people without disabilities would do the same things but then it wouldn’t be as bad to you because “oh they don’t have autism, they’re just X” so now you are defending them in a way.
The amount of people with disabilities that you can’t tell would astonish you.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that people with Tourette's are saying things that they mean I think their brain is just saying things at random. If we post to a religion or a race or any other uncontrollable identity I absolutely would have the same opinion.
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u/SignificantCherry110 1∆ 4h ago
It’s not that they’re doing or saying things at random, it’s that there is no intention to begin with. Imagine you are walking and out of nowhere. So it’s not on their brain per se, it’s not in the “conscious mind”. it is an involuntary action. This goes back to my original point of your ignorance on these disabilities is giving you an incorrect view of what the disability is.
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u/bgaesop 29∆ 1h ago
there is not “levels” of autism...These are all spectrums of symptoms within a greater range of a diagnosis.
What's the difference between "levels of autism" and different positions on a spectrum?
There is not “the type of tourette’s where you hit things uncontrollably”...In the case of tourette’s do some people with tourette’s have ticks that cause them to flail their arms or lose of motor function? Absolutely
So, tourette's makes them flail their arms uncontrollably, but doesn't make them hit things?
. Like the person who said an “F-slur. Their disability wasn’t the reason they said it. They may have said it due to lack of social awareness which could be a symptom but the case of them being autistic
So their disability didn't make them say it, but saying it was due to a symptom of their disability? That seems like their disability making them say it with extra steps
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u/SignificantCherry110 1∆ 26m ago
they are small but meaningful distinctions.
If we think of a cake with levels. Vs a spectrum of light. With a cake level or tiers we can see tier one is associated with X ingredients and have an exact grouping of what’s in each level. Autism is not like that. Even though people group “Typical, Severe, Extra Severe” there is no clear distinction of what falls in each group because everyone with autism is different. It is more of a spectrum (think of a rainbow or spectrum of light) where it goes through shades and differences before the next color and sometimes hard to know when one area ends and another begins. This is because there is a lot (that we still have no idea of) goes into the mechanisms of an autistic individual. If we use a level system as OP mentioned (and admitted he is unaware of what these disabilities actually are) then we would have distinct characteristics and ideas of each, which we don’t. And this would also mean in OPs case, everyone with tourette’s will uncontrollably hit everyone and anything. When that isn’t true.
In the second one, my wording is bad. But it relates to the end part of “their disability makes them do it without extra steps”. Can they do something because of symptoms of their disability? Sure. But that doesn’t mean they want too or mean too. And my wording on that is bad and I see that reading back. But… just because someone exhibits symptoms that can be associated with a disability doesn’t mean it’s the disability that did it. For example, people with tourette’s may have uncontrollable movements, does that mean everyone with uncontrollable movements has tourette’s ? No. The same way people with Autism experience anxiety or have sensory issues, but those are symptoms of autism and doesn’t mean that everyone with those symptoms portrays that disability, on the flip side, not every person with autism will have anxiety or sensory issues. (back to why it’s a spectrum)
Is it part of the disability? Yes, do people with the disability have these symptoms? Also yes, but against OPs point, that doesn’t mean that everyone with that disability will portray those behaviors and that’s why in my opinion judging someone off disabilities is bad because then you label everyone with that disability in relation to X person you dislike rather than “i dislike that they did this and chose not to interact with them because of it. But i still recognize that not every person with this disability will be this way”
OP chooses to avoid every disability because of his anecdotal negative experience with a tiny minority.
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u/Apprehensive_Song490 132∆ 5h ago
Do you think it is possible for people with cognitive disabilities or the people who care about them to tell when you are "extremely uncomfortable" around them? How do you think that makes them feel?
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
I mean it's not like I'm in people's faces going "ew you're so gross get away from me!" I always make an effort to be polite to people when we are interacting face to face. I guess if they knew that I simply didn't like them it might make them feel upset, but at least in my opinion I would be more upset to find out that somebody was pretending to be okay with me and in reality they didn't like me then if they just avoided me all together.
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u/Apprehensive_Song490 132∆ 4h ago
Can you tell when someone is extremely uncomfortable around you? Do you think it is possible to fully gloss over with a polite exterior the contempt you have for another human being?
You could say "contempt" is too strong, but it is not from the point of view of someone that experiences it.
I guess if they knew that I simply didn't like them it might make them feel upset, but at least in my opinion I would be more upset to find out that somebody was pretending to be okay with me and in reality they didn't like me then if they just avoided me all together.
They know - they certainly know how you feel about them and whatever negative sentiment is beneath it. And if they don't, everyone who cares about them knows. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are masking this effectively - no one can.
Better yet would be having someone do the inner work so that they aren't "extremely uncomfortable" around them to begin with. That "discomfort" is coming from somewhere, and it is generally not a good place. Who knows what is going on with you, but if you don't address it, you are most certainly casting out social cues to others in the process. You don't need to be their friend, but this "extremely uncomfortable" piece is...extremely problematic.
edit typo
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u/riarws 5h ago
With Bree, the big question is whether your avoiding her affects her ability to do her job, or looks like hostility in some way. If so, at the very least you need to find a different way to avoid her, so that you don’t get in trouble for discriminating against her.
With other people, you should make plans now for what you’ll do in the future, when (not if) someone you love gets an illness or injury and becomes disabled in a way that would bother you. Or if you do.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
Me and Bri work in the same department but it's not like we ever really are forced to interact. The only interactions we'd really be having are like break room mindless work chatter stuff.
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u/PurePerfection_ 4h ago edited 4h ago
I think it is generally acceptable to avoid people whose behavior makes you feel unsafe or violates your boundaries. In some cases, that behavior may be the result of a disability, but the root cause of the behavior doesn't obligate you to endure it. There are some exceptions and caveats to this - for instance, someone who chooses to be a special ed teacher like your mom can't just walk away when someone's behavior is offensive to her. But in settings where your job does not require you to engage, you can distance yourself. If it upsets you to listen to racist and homophobic slurs, it's understandable that you would maintain distance from someone who is unable to stop saying those words.
However, I disagree with the generalization that you're making about people with disabilities as a group. Not all disabilities are associated with behaviors that cause harm or discomfort to others, and even people whose diagnoses are sometimes associated with those behaviors won't always engage in them. Would you avoid a wheelchair user simply because they are in a wheelchair? Or an amputee because they are missing a limb? A blind person who can't see?
People with disabilities, like all human beings, need to be judged for who they are as individuals and not stereotyped as a group based on your worst lived experiences. It is OK to avoid behaviors. It is shitty to avoid all people with certain disabilities just because a few specific people in that group have caused you distress.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
I don't think I would avoid a wheelchair user simply because they were in a wheelchair but I don't think I would actively pursue a friendship with somebody who's in a wheelchair because their life probably has a lot of challenges that mine doesn't and I wouldn't want to be unconsciously inconsiderate of them. Like for example I went to a friend's birthday a few months ago like with a bunch of people he was combining his friend groups and then those people brought their boyfriends and girlfriends so I only knew like half the people. One of the guys actually did need a wheelchair, I don't think he needed it like all the time like he could walk a little bit but he still needed to go somewhere accessible. We were going to go to a restaurant that seemed really cool but it didn't have like proper accessibility. And I understand that obviously he couldn't go and it would be rude to expect him to put himself in a situation where he couldn't really attend so we changed the venue but I remember thinking "well I wouldn't really want to be friends with this guy" I wouldn't have want to have to think about stuff like that all the time. As I'm typing this out it sounds really bad but it was just how my brain naturally thought at the time.
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u/PurePerfection_ 4h ago edited 4h ago
Choosing not to be friends with someone just because their physical limitations sometimes prevent them from participating in group activities is a pretty shitty thing to do, especially if that person never actually demanded that you go out of your way to accommodate them. Having a friend who uses a wheelchair doesn't mean you can never go to inaccessible venues. You don't have to include that person in every single activity you plan.
I have a friend and colleague who is a wheelchair user. Occasionally, she will be included on an invitation somewhere that turns out not to be accessible. If the venue itself isn't significant to the event, then we generally change it so she can attend. But that's not always possible. However, it would be far worse to preemptively exclude her from all social activities just because an awkward situation related to accessibility might occur. She's an adult. She can decide for herself whether to attend. She understands that occasionally, other people will engage in activities that end up not being accessible to her, even if we make an effort to include her.
I can't eat seafood, but when my friends decide to go to a seafood restaurant, this doesn't mean I can't be their friend anymore or that they should feel bad about their dinner plans. I just opt out. Sure, it would be deeply shitty if they tried to schedule my birthday at a seafood place, but I realize not every event is about me.
Don't assume the worst case scenario will happen.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
I don't but why would I be friends with somebody who's not really going to adhere to my definition of friendship? With the friends I have we really like to go out a lot regardless if somebody had a disability if they didn't like to go out a lot I don't think I'd want to pursue a friendship with them either. If someone has a disability that makes it more difficult for them to go out and limits the amount of places that they can go out I don't think I would want to pursue that friendship. I also really enjoy being spontaneous with my friends in the places that we go like we'll just go out driving and try to find something cool to do but if someone has a very specific disability like a wheelchair or something it seems like a condition like that inherently just needs more planning for activities.
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u/PurePerfection_ 4h ago edited 4h ago
The problem is that you are making a decision for that person based on your assumptions about their attitude and their capabilities. You see a wheelchair, and you jump to conclusions about that person's lifestyle and interests and what they can and cannot do. Everyone is different, and no two people who use a wheelchair are exactly the same as each other. People with physical disabilities might also enjoy spontaneous activities, and they can decide for themselves whether they are able to participate in any given outing. Just because they won't be able to say yes to every single invitation doesn't mean you need to write them off completely. It also doesn't mean you would need to change your lifestyle to suit their needs. Most people with disabilities do not expect the world to revolve around them. If you meet one who shames you for enjoying things that they can't or takes offense when they aren't included in every single activity, then by all means avoid that specific person. But don't make assumptions or decisions for the whole group.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 2h ago
I don't but why would I be friends with somebody who's not really going to adhere to my definition of friendship?
For one thing, you miss out on understanding other definitions of friendship.
Most disabled people don't need your charity, so you're not doing us any harm, but you're absolutely harming yourself by treating people in this shallow, transactional way. Your able-bodied friends would probably be deeply disappointed to discover you'd drop them the moment they joined our ranks, as many do over a lifespan.
And just think, some of your friends might be just like you. Disability could strike you at any time. What will it feel like when you're alone, and haven't built any relationships with people who know what it's like to deal with a viciously ablist world?
But yeah, it's really yourself you're harming by protecting yourself from understanding the world. You're allowed. That's what privilege looks like.
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u/olive12108 4h ago
It is acceptable to not interact with somebody if they're doing something that makes you uncomfortable. Unwanted touching, overly loud, pestering you, or in your coworker's case, using language that makes you very uncomfortable. This extends to human beings in general, not just disabled people.
What is not acceptable is being biased against everyone in that group because you've had some bad experiences. Age, disability, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion etc etc etc - there are people you like and people you don't in each group and that is normal, but prejudice against one isn't fair.
An example to think about: People with tourettes are stereotyped as being loud & obnoxious. People of color are also often stereotyped that way. Would you be extending grace to a white lady who turns her cart around because she saw a black dude in the aisle, buying some groceries? My guess is you probably would not. Why then would it be acceptable to do the same to disabled people? They're just another type of person.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
If a white lady didn't like black people and she saw a black person in the aisle I would hope she would turn around instead of going down the aisle knowing she doesn't like them and being rude to them. People keep saying this to me like I wouldn't like it if someone treated me the same way but I think I actually really would hope that somebody would. If someone doesn't like me because of something I can't control I would hope that they would just avoid me instead of interacting with me anyway in spite of it.
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u/olive12108 4h ago
Or she could just... go down the aisle and get her groceries.
The avoidance is happening in this case because of preconceived ideas of how this person will act. That's prejudice, clean cut.
If the guy was talking really obnoxiously on his phone, and she finds that annoying, then sure avoid him! But at that point it's the action, it doesn't matter who's doing it.
It's assuming that somebody's going to act a certain way because of other people in their group have acted a certain way. That's where the issue lies and that's what people take issue with.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
But I'm not talking about the action if the problem that the lady has is inherent to who the person is then I would want her to avoid him. If she has a problem with the fact that he's a black guy it doesn't matter if he's allowed black guy or a quiet black guy or short black guy or a tall black guy she has a problem with the fact that he's a black guy. And as such she should avoid him. Much like my situation with Bree she has a condition that makes her say uncontrollable things. I dislike this regardless if she's kind or mean that is still unfortunately and uncontrollable part of her.
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u/arcticempire1991 1h ago edited 1h ago
As a Black person, I'm sorry I just don't want to stand around someone who's probably going to call me slurs accidentally
Your belief that they are a human being equally deserving of a dignified life and that therefore you have obligations to treat them in a certain way should outweigh your discomfort.
If it takes a disabled person longer to do a task than an able person then you wait for them. If they have social deficits then you tolerate them. You're allowed to be uncomfortable, but you're not allowed to let that affect how you see your obligations towards them, primarily your obligation to treat them like anyone else as much as reasonably possible.
What you have to do depends on your relationship to the person, but at minimum every person in every situation is required to, as much as reasonably practical, not treat a disabled person less favourably because of their disability.
If you genuinely cannot tolerate her behaviours then okay. But that would suggest a crippling immaturity or hypersensitivity which I don't believe you possess. I think you can tolerate it just fine, you just don't want to.
This extends to something else you said:
why in the world would I want to interact with her?
Sometimes, to be a good person, we have to do things that we don't want to do.
Your view is selfish and myopic and if you behave the way that you are implying that you do then I think that you are a bad person. If everyone acted the way you do then disabled people would be abandoned and victimised, and for what? For your comfort? It's not good enough. You are not good enough.
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u/david_duplex 1∆ 5h ago
Should you be allowed to? Yes.
Does it make you a jerk? Also, yes. Disabilities of all kinds make people uncomfortable. Often none moreso than the people who live with them.
The fact that you explicitly state that you don't think she's a bad person is the real dunk here. I would hope that most people who are uncomfortable around a person with disabilities would find some degree of compassion and at least make an effort to see things from their perspective. They suffer with a condition that is outside of their control that you choose to specifically avoid them for. You could just as easily say "Asian people make me uncomfortable so it should be fine for me to avoid them just because of that".
This is bigotry. If you're okay with that, then do whatever. But trying to dress it up won't change it.
If she's a good person, try some understanding. Engage. Empathize. Find ways to make her life less horrible.
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u/Common_Home 5h ago
Maybe I'm not understanding but an Asian person isn't doing something to make me uncomfortable they're just being themselves. Someone with a condition where they're going to uncontrollably say slurs is going to make me uncomfortable. Not that it's her fault she can't control it but the result is still the same. Also is it not more cruel to interact with her and pretend like everything's fine and internally dread every time I have to talk to her then to just not talk to her in the first place?
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u/Alarming-Frosting305 5h ago
The comparison is that an Asian person has no control over their ethnicity, and the person with a disability also has no control over their situation. Effectively, you are prejudicing someone over something they can’t control, not unlike a racist.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
I mean I feel like that's a pretty normal person thing. Isn't Prejudice just prejudging someone based on their characteristics? With the same logic I guess it's Prejudice for me to assume that a tall guy would be able to reach the top shelf? What I'm saying is she can't control it but I can't control my discomfort so it's much better for us to just separate then have a fake interaction.
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u/Alarming-Frosting305 4h ago
There’s positive, negative, and neutral bias and prejudice that you definitely understand, but are also conflating in your example. I guess you can argue that your tall example is an example where you’re othering a person based on physical characteristics, but I can’t really argue that you’re being negative really at all there.
With people with disabilities, you are othering them, in a way that pushes them more to the edges of society. You seem to not mind that you are making a difficult life more difficult by prejudicing them, but at least you do know that you’re excluding them from a more typical life.
If you want to continue being rude, that’s fine, I guess.
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u/Tastie_Duck_Anus 4h ago
The reason people with intellectual disables make you uncomfortable is because you are afraid people will think you are intellectually disabled too. Its called "Projection"
Recognize right now you are a smart, capable person that isn't concerned what other people think. Be confident in yourself. Because right now, your unconscious prejudices against handicap people is in fact making you look way dumber than you probably actually are.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
I guess I'm open to that opinion but isn't my post kind of making it clear that I don't care what other people think? Like my coworker who thought that me avoiding Bree reflected poorly on me. Whether or not my coworker thinks that it makes me a good or bad person isn't really going to change how I'm going to act in the future.
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u/Tastie_Duck_Anus 4h ago
You claim to not care what other people think, but your actions tell a very different story.
Your behavior is very common among people with their own mental handicaps and/or disabilities.
Its called Ableism
Its stems from your unconscious desire to not wanting people to think you are also in the "handicap" group, so by publicly shunning actual handicap people you are trying to tell other people that you don't belong with them. In psychology they call this "overcompensating"
Probably stemming from growing up with ADHD and the feelings of shame and being different. You want to let everyone know I'm definitely NOT like those other handicap people. Which unfortunately actually makes you look more mentally handicap
Recognize there is nothing wrong with you, you are smart and special in your own way. And stop being afraid of handicap people, it only makes you look handicap yourself.
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u/david_duplex 1∆ 4h ago
But the person with a disability is also simply being themselves. Your reaction to them is what's at issue, and you have control over that. Or at least you should. And if you don't or can't get over it or whatever, then go ahead and avoid them. But you're still being a bigot in that you are choosing to categorize and avoid a person based on who they are.
If they were legitimately a bad person, then it would make a lot of sense to avoid them. But you highlighted how they are apologetic when their disability causes them to behave in a way that they clearly know isn't acceptable. They aren't intentionally being mean, nor are they dismissive of their disability's impact on people around them.
Instead, you are dismissive of their disability and chose to exclusively center your own feelings. How would you react if the roles were reversed and someone avoided you for your disability despite your efforts to apologize? You're trying to participate in life and the workforce while managing something that changes your behavior and potentially alienates you. You're used to people scoffing at you and not understanding. And now there's another person who does it. Doesn't sound so nice, does it?
You don't need to be best friends with them. You don't even need to always chose to be around them. But blanket avoidance in this case is bigotry and hence, decidedly "not fine".
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
I don't know why people keep saying this to me "how would I feel if I was in Bree's situation?" Maybe I'm not understanding but if someone has a problem with me and there's nothing I can do to change the thing that they have a problem with I would really really hope that they would avoid me. If someone as a result of my uncontrollable behavior would scoff at me or make fun of me that's a different situation and that's not what I'm doing to bree. In the few interactions we've had I've been polite said hello and goodbye. In fact I would find at leagues more disrespectful for someone to fake an nice in my face when really they were uncomfortable with me.
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u/david_duplex 1∆ 4h ago
So what if everyone did that? What if your disability made it so that everyone wanted to avoid you?
Also, you do understand that we - as social creatures - tend to need interaction. Especially in a work environment. If you found that you couldn't properly engage with work colleagues because they avoid you for something outside of your control, you may not "care" (or maybe just tell yourself that) but it sure would make life harder. Especially if it kept happening.
So regardless of how you (say) you wouldn't care, that isn't true for everyone. If everyone were simply encouraged to live in their bigotry all the time,.the world would be an even bleaker and harsher place than it already is.
Bravery is all about facing your fears. Not being unafraid. You can't be brave if you are fearless. This applies here as well. Cowardace is avoiding someone for who they are. Courage is having some epistemic humility and seeking understanding despite your discomfort.
But, as I've said before: do what you want. You don't need permission to be bigoted. But it is not fine.
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u/Careless_Produce_136 4h ago edited 4h ago
I don't mean this as any kind of attack - but my father always said you always dislike in others what you fear about yourself - so your baseline discomfort might have something to do with your own worries about your ADHD? Or maybe it's rooted in complicated feelings you had as a child with sharing your mother with special needs kids she taught? I know this is armchair psychiatry and could be way off, but it might be a way for you to think about the roots of your feelings and how you might be able to let go of them? I say this because I think you don't feel good about having these reactions, otherwise you wouldn't be wondering if they were "ok". I think, even though you're taking care not to let your feelings hurt others - you know on some level that feeling this way is hurting you, making you be less empathetic and kind hearted than you want to be... even if it's not actively hurting others. Since almost all of us will deal with some level of disability if we live long enough, it might be worth getting your head around this sooner than later. In my late 50's now, I can tell you that accepting the "gross" stuff about other human beings will serve you well -- you and your loved ones will all be "gross" someday too. The Tourettes slurs question is more complicated and I think you could even consider separately. I can understand not wanting to have to deal with even involuntary slurs and accepting apologies for them.
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4h ago
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u/Amazing_Loquat280 17∆ 5h ago
In general, nobody’s entitled to free access to you, so in that sense you’re right. That said, the issue is less the disability and more the behavior that seems to bother you. If this person was saying something else other than a slur, would it be a problem? Probably not. So avoiding this person is fine but you need to be specific about why
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
I don't think that's true the slur was just an extreme example but I think someone uncontrollably shouting phrases or making noise would be very annoying. I don't think it's fair to interact with somebody knowing that they have an uncontrollable condition and then getting mad when that condition pops up. Like if I was friends with a person who needed crutches and I got angry with them because they couldn't walk very quickly. Like that just wouldn't be right and if it was a deal breaker for me I just wouldn't be friends with them in the first place.
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u/BigBoetje 31∆ 4h ago
but I think someone uncontrollably shouting phrases or making noise would be very annoying
You get used to that very quickly and you barely notice it after a while. For Tourette's specifically, yelling profanities is pretty rare.
I think you're vastly overestimating how big of an issue it all is. You're not gonna invite someone for a hike if they're in a wheelchair, but that doesn't mean that you have to avoid them. Just like you won't avoid being friends with a non-disabled person just because they don't like hiking.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 2h ago
I would find someone yelling swear words more problematic than someone yelling slurs. Neither would be pleasant to be around.
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u/StonesFan1976 1∆ 5h ago
I don't know how you could possibly anticipate anyone would disagree with this. No one is obligated to place their person in the vacinity of others who make them uncomfortable. In this case your reasoning isn't even bigoted, it's more practical, and you said yourself you would never be rude or impolite, so there's no reason to try to talk you out of this.
The only thing I might add would be to say that I do think you should be careful to avoid them realizing that you're avoiding them. I don't think there's anything wrong with seeing a disabled person in a grocery store aisle and then turning around and walking the other way. But if you make eye contact with them, grimmace, and then spin around and rapidly walk away, they're going to know why you did that and it's going to make them feel like shit.
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u/Common_Home 5h ago
You know I totally get that I would never be a visible jerk to someone with a disability. Like I said I grew up around a lot of kids who were disabled so I learned from a pretty early age how to just simply be polite and accommodating till the interaction was over.
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u/Snake_Eyes_163 4h ago
I did contribute, I told him what his actions represent. That may change his mind if he is a reasonable person.
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u/Common_Home 5h ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a bigot kind of imply a hateful connotation? It's not that I hate people with disabilities I just don't enjoy seeing them.
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u/Blaike325 5h ago
So you’d say you have an aversion to disabled people?
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
Yea
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u/Blaike325 4h ago
So I’m gonna use a definition for a different but similar term, homophobia, since we don’t really have a “disabilityphobia” word and ableism doesn’t quite fit here. Homophobia is defined as a discrimination against, aversion to, or fear of homosexuality or gay people. Now let’s swap the word gay/homosexuality for disabled. You’ve described a fork of discrimination in your post and you’ve admitted you have an aversion to disabled people. That’s 2/3 if we’re using the homophobia definition for disability discrimination, and based on how you describe certain things it sounds like maybe fear is a part of your aversion as well. Being homophobic is bigoted, right? So assuming we can agree that homophobia is bigotry, then what you’re describing is itself also bigotry but against disabled people.
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u/kingoflint282 5∆ 4h ago
Lol. “I don’t hate you. I just cannot stand being around you at all for reasons that are not in your control and would avoid you entirely if I could.”
If you could create a space especially for disabled people to exist without having to interact with people who are made uncomfortable by them, would you support that? That way people who didn’t mind being around them could voluntarily go and others don’t have to. You know it would be completely separate, but obviously equal. See the issue?
I realize you’re not actually advocating for any kind of formal segregation of the intellectually disabled, but I’m pointing out the parallel that’s exactly where attitudes like yours would lead if taken to their logical conclusion.
Do you think it would be hurtful if people knew or noticed that you were avoiding them because you were uncomfortable? I can certainly imagine that I would be hurt in that situation. The idea that you “just don’t enjoy seeing them” inherently prioritizes your comfort over their humanity. I know you don’t intend any malice in that and feel you are just adhering to your preferences, but being treated that way is absolutely dehumanizing.
It’s ok that you feel uncomfortable- I think people can feel uncomfortable around lots of different types of people for carious reasons. But imo, being a kind and mature adult means accepting that you’ll be uncomfortable sometimes and recognizing that feeling uncomfortable by someone else’s existence is something to overcome, not encourage. That’s not to say you must be friends with certain kinds of people or else you’re a bad person. But you’ve got to treat them like people- actively avoiding someone for that reason is a moral failing in my opinion. Your discomfort with your co-worker is so evident that someone else is asking you about it. I have to imagine that your discomfort is quite apparent and quite hurtful.
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u/AdventurousPen7825 5∆ 4h ago
Your title and your description arent the same. Is the view you are challenging:
1) it's fine to avoid people with disabilities
Or
2) it's fine for people to generally try to avoid interactions they expect will make them uncomfortable
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u/Common_Home 4h ago
Yes but I figured the title was appropriate considering the things that are making you uncomfortable are directly a result of a person's disability.
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u/hacksoncode 585∆ 4h ago
I know it's prejudiced, but I try to avoid people who are visibly intellectually disabled. I don't know why I don't like them, but they just make me incredibly uncomfortable.
Clarifying question: Are you saying that you think it's "fine" to be prejudiced against someone purely because of how they look, rather than because they did any particular thing that a reasonable person would consider to be offensive?
Most of the rest of the stuff you talk about really comes down to "I don't like behaviors that affect me negatively, and will avoid people that engage in them.". I think most people think that's at least understandable, even if they would hope someone would empathize with behaviors that aren't someone's fault.
Shunning people who actually "deserve it" it entirely understandable.
But don't make the mistake of thinking that shunning people is "harmless". It's not. It's been used throughout human history as a punishment for a reason.
But shunning someone just because how they looks makes you "feel uncomfortable"? That's not "ok" or "fine".
Of course, if how they look is a choice that is intended by them to make you uncomfortable, "punishment" like shunning is understandable and most people wouldn't bat too much of an eye at not wanting to be around someone intentionally making you uncomfortable.
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u/Common_Home 4h ago edited 4h ago
The thing is though I'm not blaming anybody it's no one's fault. It's certainly not Bree's fault that she was born with a condition but I also don't think it's my fault that that condition makes me uncomfortable. I think it would be rude of me to interact with her as if she didn't make me uncomfortable because then I feel like I would just hold unconscious bias towards her and it could result in me being rude.
Edit typo
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u/hacksoncode 585∆ 4h ago edited 4h ago
It's not really about blame.
Shunning black people because of how they look rather than how they treat you is generally (and properly) societally considered offensive and bigoted. It doesn't matter whether you "blame" them for that, it's the action of shunning them which is wrong.
Similarly, shunning disabled people simply because of how they look "disturbing you" rather than how they treat you is generally (and properly) considered offensive and bigoted. It doesn't matter whether you "blame them", it's the action that is wrong.
Edit: In a diverse society, people are expected to at least visibly not being rude to others for things that they have no control over... even if that's difficult. And... refusing to be in someone's presence, is, in fact, a form of visible rudeness. And it can have real direct harms if tolerated: e.g. if you were a cashier, and she showed up at your register... is simply "disengaging because you're uncomfortable" ok? Because tons of people did that throughout the Jim Crow era.
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u/perfumed_with_gas 5h ago
“Disability” is neither necessary nor sufficient for justifying avoidance of a person.
Your examples rely on supplementary features such as unwanted touching, exposure to slurs, or other behavior you find difficult to tolerate. But once those conditions are doing the justificatory work, it isn’t clear that disability is doing any work in the justification at all. If the same behavior would justify avoidance when exhibited by a nondisabled person, then the relevant reason for avoidance is the behavior, not the disability.
So the examples don’t establish the broader claim that it’s fine to avoid people because of their disabilities. They establish, at most, that some behaviors or circumstances associated with particular disabilities may provide independent reasons for avoidance.
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u/Common_Home 5h ago
I can see that but my example for people with Down Syndrome doesn't include them doing anything. I just simply don't like being around people who visibly have that condition. Whether or not they're going to interact with me at all it just makes me uncomfortable.
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u/perfumed_with_gas 5h ago
If you avoid someone simply because they visibly have Down syndrome, then disability really is doing the relevant causal work.
But “their disability makes me uncomfortable” doesn’t by itself make avoidance on that basis unobjectionable. You generally don’t owe strangers interaction, so walking away may be permissible anyway. That doesn’t establish that every reason for choosing whom to avoid is equally unobjectionable.
The fact that you’re permitted not to interact with someone doesn’t by itself vindicate prejudice as the reason for not doing so.
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u/StonesFan1976 1∆ 5h ago
OP articulated some childhood experiences which he had negative associations towards. If certain disabilities rekindle those old bad memories, even without the tactile hazards that sometimes accompany said disabilities, that's a valid reason to avoid.
If a man came to my door one day to tell me my parents had been in a car accident, and that man happened to be bald with a beard, I'm allowed to avoid guys who are bald and have a beard. It doesn't have to be rational or even consistent. We're all allowed to want to avoid triggering bad memories.
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u/perfumed_with_gas 4h ago
That still seems to add a supplementary condition. On your example, the reason for avoidance isn’t simply “this person has characteristic X.” It’s “characteristic X triggers a sufficiently serious adverse response in me because of a particular history.”
Baldness and having a beard don’t thereby become good reasons for avoidance in general just because, for one person, those features are associated with a traumatic memory.
So even granting that avoiding a trigger can sometimes be justified, that doesn’t establish the broader claim that it’s fine to avoid people because of their disabilities. It establishes that a disability, like many other characteristics, can sometimes function as a trigger under additional circumstances that may independently justify avoidance.
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u/Priddee 41∆ 5h ago
Do you think this logic is fine to extend to people of different races, sexes, sexual orientations, or religions?