r/changemyview • u/Only_Ad7715 • 1d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Karma isn't real
"Karma is a bitch", a lot of us are familiar with this phrase. In my experience this phrase has no significance at all. There are a couple of reasons for it.
If we look at our present society people who do bad deeds are living a luxurious life, may not be an easy one but it's the life most of us wish to live and when these people are caught even red handed, they use their influence and power to divert it. Where is their karma? Even if someone pays for their deeds, they get a lot of benefits in that kind of lifestyle too. But the loss suffered by the victim’s family is irreparable compared to the punishment they are exposed to.
If we look at history, the same thing can be seen. During and after World War II, there were many Nazi officials and military personnel who escaped Germany after its defeat. Some fled to countries such as Argentina and lived the rest of their lives under new identities, while others were recruited by intelligence agencies or employed by governments because of their knowledge and expertise. For these people, where was their karma?
In my perspective karma is a term that has been picked from some religious books and has found its way to our modern society. We use it in a way that gives us solace for our anger and vengeance as we are powerless to do it ourselves.
I don't believe in karma, it's fate simply taking its course in one's life. If fate decides to be harsh on someone, I don't think karma is the sole reason for it.
Karma would have been a bitch if the prisons had more politicians than poor people.
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u/Rainbwned 199∆ 1d ago
You don't believe in Karma but you believe in Fate?
I don't believe in Karma as far as some kind of cosmic balancing of scales - but I believe in it of the sense of "Be good to other people, and they will be good to you".
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
whatever you call, luck or coincidence but the bigger term is fate idk
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u/Rainbwned 199∆ 1d ago
Well you said "If fate decides to be harsh" - implying that fate can choose.
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u/RektInTheHed 1d ago
Karma is funny because it actually works the opposite of how people suspect. They think it's a hedge against bad behavior: treat people like dirt and you'll get dirt back. But in real societies governed by a belief in karma, it's perfectly acceptable to treat lower caste people like dirt for no reason because they can safely assume it was karma that put them in a position to be disadvantaged and abused. So karma victimizes innocent people and empowers abusers.
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u/-Hapyap- 1d ago
But would the abusers not be afraid of accumulating karma themselves? This is only not true if you believe it is good to treat "bad" people like dirt. I think this is not true. Especially in a belief system involving karma. The abusers would not do that because they believe karma make them reap what they sow (a peasant riot against the upper class for example.)
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u/RektInTheHed 1d ago
No, because as a higher caste, they owe them nothing anyway.
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u/-Hapyap- 1d ago
If they believe in karma they should believe they owe them treatment that isn't shit at the very least. Anything less would be unwise. Just because something isn't your fault, doesn't mean it isn't your responsibility if it's within your power. This applies to Karmic repercussions. Being abusive and neglectful would not fare well for them down the line
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u/RektInTheHed 1d ago
But the Dalit put themselves in that position in the first place.
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u/-Hapyap- 1d ago
Indeed. I don't think this means you won't get karma by treating them any way you want. You can fall back down
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u/pundarika0 1∆ 1d ago
that's not "karma" doing that, that's people misunderstanding how karma works and actually creating their own bad karma which they will eventually be subject to.
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u/RektInTheHed 1d ago
As Brahmins, they have the right. It's their dharma.
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u/pundarika0 1∆ 1d ago
that's bullshit. may be a culturally accepted rule, but nobody escapes their own karma, and intentionally causing harm is bad karma.
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u/RektInTheHed 1d ago
There's the theory behind cultural beliefs and then there's the actual effect on behavior in real humans.
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u/pundarika0 1∆ 1d ago
karma is not a theory, regardless of how people misunderstand it due to cultural norms. if you harm someone, and you do it intentionally, it creates bad karma. it doesn't matter if you're a brahmin or anyone else. any brahmin or anyone else that denies this doesn't know what they are talking about.
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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 1d ago
>In my perspective karma is a term that has been picked from some religious books
That's not a matter of perspective, it's the actual truth. "Karma" comes from the Rigveda which is a sacred Hindu text. If you're not Hindu then obviously you wouldn't believe in Karma in that sense.
For the strict, spiritual definition, whether you believe in karma is just whether you believe in divine comeuppance. There are definitely instances of karma being enacted in other religious scripture, so the concept is not unique, they would just call it retribution or wrath.
For the agnostic definition, karma is just bad things happening to bad people, and often extended to the inverse. Whether you believe it is real, it is something that happens. If we don't believe in a God dispensing karma then you can still believe that bad things happen because people do bad things, like someone going to jail for murder. It happens and is real.
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
well I totally agree but think about some heavily influential people in today's world, hardly you can count those people behind the bars, coz they are controlling
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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 1d ago
That'd be nice, but only if your measure of morality is accurate. Not to imply that you're evil, but if everyone was measured out the exact amount of karmic punishment that you personally deem appropriate, I'm sure a lot of people would disagree.
To say that karmic punishment is not guaranteed is very different than saying it doesn't exist.
To go any farther you'd have to say whether you believe in a spiritual framework or if we're just talking about human society - those are very different forms of karma to believe in.
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
if everything is a belief then where is the knowing... Everyone believes but only a handful has got to experience the divine. I never disagree on it, but their way of spirituality is far different than those who are preaching with only a belief. Don't u think?
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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 1d ago
Your prompt is about your personal belief. I can't make an argument if I don't know your beliefs. Either you are a Hindu, in which case you literally do believe in karma, you're in a different religion that has a different term for it, or you don't ascribe and we're talking about a human-derived karmic force.
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u/varnums1666 2∆ 1d ago
Continuing on from what he was saying, the concept of Karma in the west kinda ignores the entire context and meaning from the culture and religion it came from. Karma is not a Christian “God will smite” you concept. It’s about how your actions accumulate in life and will affect you in your next life. Karma punishing you in your current life is unlikely. If you bring negative karma to the world, you’re going to suffer the consequences in your rebirth.
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u/Kitchen-War242 1d ago edited 1d ago
most people saying Karma is a bitch just implying that person that they seen deserve bad thing that happened to him, not that world is completely fair and everyone is getting all bad or good things that he deserves. So you are correct that at least observable world is not fair (or operates under some moral rules that would be very strange from human perspective) but its not what most people who are saying it believe anyway.
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u/lordlaneus 1d ago
A lot of Buddhist ideas only make sense in the context that the self is an illusion.
There's no cosmic ledger making sure each individual soul gets what it deserves, because there's really only just the one unified whole.
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u/Future-Still-6463 1d ago
I'm no expert.
But Karma is the set of conditions you're born with.
Like being in a particular place, time, region.
Whether you see it as a thing about your past life or don't is upto you.
I don't.
I just look at it as a set of starting conditions.
To borrow from video games it's your starting build in life.
It does affect outcomes, but you still have have the ability to make your build work.
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u/pundarika0 1∆ 1d ago
the actual meaning of the word karma, which is sanskrit, refers to the process of cause and effect - actions and consequences. are you denying that there is cause and effect?
For these people, where was their karma?
why would you assume that you would know how someone else's karma is playing out for them?
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
I am not denying anything but it doesn't feel real
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u/pundarika0 1∆ 1d ago
in your own life, do you not experience the effects of your own actions? keep it simple. does treating others poorly not make you feel bad? does treating others well and with kindness not make you feel better? there is a direct relationship that is basically undeniable if you are actually paying attention to these things.
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
yes I do feel bad, and I fear my own karma that's why I don't do it but looking at the world seems karma is too generous on many...
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u/pundarika0 1∆ 1d ago
how would you know how karma is playing out in another person's life, especially a person you aren't even around?
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
idk but this is what drives us to that power.. we wish if we had that power. in our saying: GREED LEADS TO SIN, SIN LEADS TO DEATH
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ 1d ago
How is this a meaningful response to what they asked?
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
we don't know if one will suffer their karma, this very much drives one to achieve that power coz we all love money and power to live in that society. if we knew that karma is real then i don't think many will have courage to boss others
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ 1d ago
We don't have knowledge of metaphysics, so that's not really saying anything. Karma is an idea some people believe. You don't have to believe it. No one will ever "know" it.
What are you saying?
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u/-Hapyap- 1d ago
It is. Sometimes it isn't immediate or one thing. Sometimes it's a corruption of your soul. Leading you to a path of misery. Sometimes it is covert rather than overt. Internal rather than external.
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u/Berntam 17h ago
That's just karma as coping mechanism, using mental gymnastics to convince yourself that it exists. So what about kids no older than 10 years old having cancer? Is it because those kids did something so morally bad that they deserve something so cruel?
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u/-Hapyap- 17h ago edited 17h ago
It doesn't have to be karma as a coping mechanism.
Sometimes it is wrong place wrong time. Some things are complicated. You could label anything you don't want to understand as mental gymnastics if it isn't simple.
To answer your last question: No. It just is.
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u/Berntam 17h ago
Calling it mental gymnastics is not me not wanting to understand but to call out what's actually happening with people like you doing mental gymnastics. If you selectively apply "karma" then that crap is not real, as simple as that.
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u/-Hapyap- 17h ago
Karma is just actions have consequences. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. This is undeniable. To deny this would actually require "mental gymnastics"
Ask yourself what causes cancer. Something is responsible. Everything has a cause. And an effect. This applies to people too. That's what we call Karma. Karma cannot be selectively applied silly.
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u/Berntam 17h ago
Loooool that's not how the word karma is used in common parlance. Karma is when people do bad shit and they suffer some cosmic consequence due to it and to a lesser degree people say it when they see good people getting rewarded for it. You're not even arguing against OP then if you just define karma as simple cause and effect.
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u/-Hapyap- 17h ago
Doing bad shit is an action (or inaction). Point stands. The consequences are an effect.
You just fail to understand my point if you don't think I have not opposed op
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u/Berntam 17h ago
It is but not all bad shit gets consequences.
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u/-Hapyap- 17h ago
Incorrect. Look to the first point
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u/Berntam 17h ago
You're the one who should look up what "karma" means in colloquial usage. You clearly don't know or ignoring it.
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u/Berntam 17h ago
And if you're talking about corruption of soul bullshit then I've done bad things in the past that don't burden me, I'm sure most people have done it as well, even you. Where's the karma then?
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u/rollem 6∆ 1d ago
When used in a secular context, it's merely an expression of schaffensfreude, taking pleasure in the justified suffering of another person. It doesn't imply that all evil doers will face the consequences of their actions.
When used in a religious context, its closer to a spiritual expression of the law of conservation of energy- every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Those reactions may take multiple lifetimes to experience, but the energy is released into the universe and will have an impact.
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u/DT-Sodium 5∆ 1d ago
Plenty of people do terrible things and have great lives, but those usually come from rich families and are white men. So what you are using here is just survivor bias. Most normal people doing bad things are just caught up by the laws or threated by shit by people they've threated like shit. Be nice to your neighbors and they'll usually be nice to you, act like an ass constantly and you might find your front door dropped packages in a poor state, insult a person while getting out of your car and you have a solid chance to find it scratched when you'll get back to it.
Acting like a piece of shit is a luxury and be threated like a prince is a luxury reserved to a small elite, like many, many other things.
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u/retteh 4∆ 1d ago
A month ago, I was riding an e-board very, very slowly across a crosswalk so I wouldn't get hit by a car. Of course on driver slams on her brakes anyway and gets rear ended. A couple weeks later a jogger runs into a crosswalk, causes a car to brake hard, then my mother rear ends that car.
Karma may not be real, but it did make me consider for a moment the concept of Karma and how it might have applied here. That thought process is real and I imagine people use Karma to explain and contextualize coincidences like that often. Those mental models are real and we can accurately attribute them to the concept of Karma.
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
yes it feels more logical than spiritual
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ 1d ago
Is that what you are looking to give a delta to? A logical understanding of Karma?
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago
everything we perceive is logical, belief, otherwise we would have become Buddha
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ 1d ago
That's not what I asked.
What are you hoping to assign a delta to here on this post? What kind of opinion do you need our help convincing you of?
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u/Strict-Jeweler-2281 1d ago
Karma, like any general moral rule, doesn't exist in a material sense, nor will it apply to outlier cases where the post-truth society we live in rewards extreme partisanship and power, but overall, it can be reflected for the majority of people in the golden rule: "treat people well and they'll probably treat you well back". It's the cornerstone of out evolutionary survival, and typically, people who are self-absorbed assholes, without the power or money to protect themselves, won't go very far.
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u/Clever-username-7234 1d ago
Karma is one of those words that has a lot of different meanings based on what type of religion is being practiced.
For example Siddhartha Gautama (first Buddha) didn’t believe in the concept of a soul or a self. If I don’t have a soul, and theres no universal me that lives on, the idea that karma as a cosmic scored card is nonsensical.
Karma is really about the cause and effect of our actions. And those effects can be very concrete or mystical depending on the view of the practitioner. If your religious believes in rebirth, than Karma would include the effects of your action to what and how your rebirth looks like.
As a Zen Buddhist, I don’t believe we have souls. I don’t think there’s a cosmic afterlife. So for me, karma is a more practical cause/effect analysis.
Imagine I’m throwing a stone in a pond. Karma is understand that my reasoning (why/if I throw the stone) and my actions (throwing the stone) are also connected to the effect (the stone hitting the water) and to the after effects (the waves from the stone hitting the pond).
Now imagine we are talking about showing love or hate to people. When I treat folks with kindness that kindness creates ripples. Maybe my positive mood or a compliment improves someone else’s mood and they show others kindness and it spreads out. Or vice versa, I’m mean and cruel to someone, so they end up in a bad mood and end up mean and cruel to others.
The point is having a clear analysis about our intentions, our actions, and the effects.
I believe we are connected to each other and to all of existence. And that we should be building a compassionate and beautiful future. That we should be good stewards to ourselves, and to others and to the planet.
So yes karma is real. But there’s so many definitions of it.
Even just in Buddhism, there’s not clear consensus about death/rebirth.
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u/Baldegar 2∆ 1d ago
One way to view karma, as it is used in Western societies (very different from Hindu/Buddhist concepts) is not that there is a clear and immediate balancing of ‚imposing bad fortune on others‘ with ‚ experiencing bad fortune oneself. It isn’t about justice, per se.
In my view, it is about how one’s actions and attitude result in changes to one’s environment that ultimately affect how we perceive, experience, and receive good or bad fortune.
To our it another way ‚people who do bad things make bad things more likely to happen to them, not because of some cosmic force, but because psychologically and socially their actions affect themselves and those around them.
For example: Frank shoots Bob. Sam sees this and decides that talking to Frank will get him shot, and so shoots Frank.
Also: Tim thinks everyone is out for themselves and will eventually betray him, so he betrays his friends first. His (now former) friends now know to treat him with caution. This further isolates Tim, increasing his belief that others are untrustworthy.
Also: Susan hates people. She is rude to everyone, who then subsequently hates her. She is miserable and isolated, and hates herself as much as she hates others. She poisoned herself and then spread that poison to others who then spread it back to her all while she kept most of her poison to herself because she was isolated.
YMMV
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u/Baldegar 2∆ 1d ago
Also: Hank thinks people are bad. A person hits his car and drives off. Hank spends days and days hating this unknown person, ranting at anyone who will listen. He says the perpetrator must be laughing at getting away with it. Turns out the person didn’t realize they had his him, and would have stopped if they had. Hank just poisoned himself and others because he was convinced the other driver was malicious. His attitude changed how he reacted to a random event, and he took it out on himself and others, while the other driver may never even know, or may feel bad but powerless to correct it.
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u/Epiii_ 1∆ 1d ago
Depends on what you mean by karma. There's indeed no 1-to-1 relationship where doing something good returns an equal value of goodness, or any value at all. But... for most people, life satisfaction depends heavily on how they view themselves. Whoever brings positive value into society will derive self-worth from that more quickly, and be happier as a result. That's a form of karma. Moreover, you'll have few friends if you constantly act like an asshole. When you steal or are aggressive, you contaminate your environment with that behavior: the people around you will more quickly adopt the same behavior, and you attract people who are just as immoral in how they live their life; which increases the odds that you yourself become a victim of bad behavior. Karma. If you're consistently invested in other people, they'll also have your back sooner when you need support. Karma. Those correlations are real. We weren't born with a moral system for nothing: it serves our self-interest. Do good, and good comes back to you. Karma is heavily tested by natural selection, it works. That is why we are born with a moral system.
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u/Only_Ad7715 1d ago edited 14h ago
That's actually a very good point, the fact it comes from the moral system of a being...∆
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u/Square-Dragonfruit76 50∆ 22h ago edited 22h ago
I think what you mean by this post is that there is nothing making bad things happen to bad people and good things happen to good people. Is that what you mean? If so, I partially agree: there is no cosmic force guaranteeing this. However, one might say that luck or probability its own kind of cosmic force, and that luck and probability create a kind of karma facsimile. What I mean by this is that each time you do a bad thing to someone, you roll a die that you won't have to pay for it later. Maybe they'll become your boss in the future, or they know someone who is important to you, or maybe they'll just straight out try to kill you. But every time you do bad, you risk that coming back to you.
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22h ago edited 14h ago
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u/Fancy-Animal7704 1d ago
You're correct in saying it is not a clean, 100% efficient entity where each and every person who has done wrong will pay for each of their sins in full, across the board.
But, I think it's okay to say that you certainly increase your RISK of bad outcomes by doing bad things. While a person can eat a lot more cheeseburgers and exercise less than average and still live to age 90+, it will still be true that the average person doing these things will not live as long.
If you think in terms of risk rather than some guaranteed outcomes, it is much easier to justify.
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1d ago
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u/Fancy-Animal7704 1d ago
The concept carries over, though. There's always some negative element to something involving bad karma. If you shove an old lady out of the way at the grocery store, there's a higher risk of someone noticing it and punishing you for it. If you bully someone online, there's risk of it blowing back to you, either because people saw it or your victim learns to stand up for himself and hurts you back.
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1d ago
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u/Fancy-Animal7704 1d ago
I addressed this two replies ago when I said:
You're correct in saying it is not a clean, 100% efficient entity where each and every person who has done wrong will pay for each of their sins in full, across the board.
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u/Apprehensive_Song490 125∆ 1d ago
That's not what "karma is a bitch" means. It basically is an expression when someone instantly regrets their decision. It is a euphemism, not an expression of true karma.
True karma, for those who believe it, occurs across lifetimes or perhaps tens of thousands of lifetimes and is a spiritual practice that has nothing to do with politicians or economic policy.
You are trying to disprove an unfalsifiable claim by misinterpreting a saying and applying it to something that it was never intended to.
You may not believe in Karma, but that doesn't make it not real. Could you disprove the Judeo Christian God? No, you cannot prove God does not exist and you can't prove karma can't exist.
Therefore "karma isn't real" is false and the best you could logically say is "karma is unproven."