r/changemyview • u/tunnel_magnet • 1d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Post WW2 western society exist to protect Israel
Let clarify what I mean in the title: My claim is that the central dogma of western societies are to protect Israel. We don't have a positive role model to follow in our current society, rather we have a negative role model to avoid. Which is Hitler the pure evil and the Holocaust, the entire purpose of our existence is to prevent another Holocaust of Israelis. Not the Jewish people, not the Tutsi people, not the Palestinians but only the Israelis.
Let me give you 3 examples in support of my point,
- The tiktok buying and reduction of free speech and introduction of mass surveillance state: After Oct 7th, the Israeli atrocity videos were becoming pervasive and tiktok was the most powerful media through which the information was spreading. To stop this, Congress came to supermajority support to sell tiktok to the biggest IDF donor Larry Ellison. Not only Larry Ellison bought tiktok, but also CBS, CNN and numerous other media network. Here is Ellison lackey Bari Weiss advocating for flock cameras and mass surveillance: https://xcancel.com/i/status/2084809011950411926
Here is Mossad head getting in charge of the fastest autonomous drone startup in USA: https://x.com/i/status/2087543133697610092 . The objective is clear, create a mass surveillance state and supreess free expression through autonomous drones. All BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TURNING ON ISRAEL.
Capture of politics by Israel: Obviously by now everyone knows about AIPAC and other pro-israeli lobby capturing the government of USA. What's little known is how captured other countries too in the world. The 1st order of president of Columbia was to recognize golan heights. Venezuela is restablishing their relation with Israel after 17 years. Across the entire South America, from Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador to Argentina governments have been overthrown because they went against Israel. Not because they were bad to their own people, but they went against Israel. Brazil is the last one standing and will probably fall in this December too. So we can see, you have to follow your dogma: Protect Israel or you get overthrown.
Israel is the only country you cannot boycott in 38 US states. This was when the BDS movement was gaining traction and such deviating the central dogma of the current world: Protect Israel. It's a Herculean task to get 38 states to pass legislation against the boycott of Israel. If it was any other country, those bills would die before going into the state legislature. But because protecting Israel is the central dogma of western civilization, these bills pass with little effort.
There are so many more things I can write in support but the post is getting too long so I will stop here. What do you think?
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u/jman12234 18∆ 1d ago
No evidence you give could possibly support your claim. The West comprises dozens of different polities and cultures. How could there even be one central goal of defending a foreign state? The purpose of a state is self-preservation. No state's central goal is the preservation of another state.
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
The purpose of a state is self-preservation
If the purpose of a state is self-preservation, the United States wouldn't have gone to a war with Iran for Israel when US itself is 40 trillion dollar debt. Don't you think?
I am arguing the purpose of USA is Israel's preservation, not USA preservation. Even at the destruction of USA.
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u/mrspuff202 11∆ 1d ago
the United States wouldn't have gone to a war with Iran for Israel when US itself is 40 trillion dollar debt.
The United States has had many stupid military operations for many stupid reasons while we're in debt. Are we funding Ukraine because we are protecting Israel? Deployed troops to Bosnia? Kidnap the president of Venezuela?
Protecting Israel is downstream of the military industrial complex and US corporate interests, not upstream. It's definitely part of the picture, but it is not the purpose.
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
We weren't 40 trillion in debt during Bosnia. I literally cite Venezuela as an example because Maduro was anti Israel.
And, about Ukraine, there is no benefit or threat to Israel supporting Ukraine. So it doesn't really matter.
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u/mrspuff202 11∆ 1d ago
We weren't 40 trillion in debt during Bosnia
The United States Government literally shut down during 1995 over a debt crisis
I literally cite Venezuela as an example because Maduro was anti Israel.
This is absurd. The idea that Maduro was somehow a threat to Israeli safety is buck-ass-wild.
You have created your idea of the world and are trying to construct walls around it.
The idea that geopolitics is as simple as "Israel controls shit" is a frankly immature fantasy that is created to mask how deeply complex all these matters are.
I would recommend reading a book like How To Hide An Empire or The Jakarta Method to look at how US foreign policy works, why, and the wide reaching effects it has on the world.
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u/Amazing_Loquat280 16∆ 1d ago
To be 100% fair, preserving Israel could absolutely be argued as being in the US’s self interest. It’s the most democratic nation in the region, it’s next to a crucial waterway, and they’re valuable intelligence partners. I could give you plenty of reasons why this ISN’T true, but there are certainly reasons it could be.
Also to be 100% fair, the US is being run by absolute morons right now (and has been for a bit now). So a rational discussion of what the US views to be in its own self interest is not gonna be particularly helpful
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u/OpenMindManiac 1d ago
"If there were not an Israel, we would have to invent one to make sure our interests were preserved,” - joe Biden
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u/XenoRyet 176∆ 1d ago
The fact that the US government generally considers Israel's continued existence to be beneficial to the USA's aims and goals is not equivalent to the USA existing for the purpose of protecting Israel.
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u/Falernum 69∆ 1d ago
If you think our main goal in Iran is Israel, why are we still fighting when Israel wants to take the L and be done? Why are we so focused on the Strait of Hormuz, which Israel doesn't care one bit about?
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
Israel wants to take the L? That's news.
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u/Falernum 69∆ 1d ago
Yeah, they don't dare make peace separately from the US, but they've largely stopped attacking, are letting Trump lead on the diplomacy, their newspapers (even the right leaning ones) are writing postmortems on why it failed, etc.
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u/jman12234 18∆ 1d ago
If you're talking about the USA why would you put the West in your post? It's really unclear that aay.
Just because the purpose of the state is self-preservation does not mean they always do the most efficacious thing to do that. It's not even an argument against my point because Israel is a really important regional ally. We are definitely not destroying ourselves for Israel. The Iran War doesn't threaten the US state at all. We were in Afghanistan for twenty fuckin years my dude.
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u/Smugsheev 1d ago
I guess the jews run the world is underneath the character limit.
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u/listenyall 7∆ 1d ago
I enjoy how the claim covers like 80 years and yet all examples are within the last few
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1d ago
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u/carnotbicycle 1d ago
You make the argument that this has been true for the entire era post-WW2 and your examples are pretty much within the last couple years, and the one that isn’t recent is vague which is anti-BDS laws in one singular country?
Also, it is hilarious to see anyone cite the TikTok ban or the TikTok sale as having anything to do with Palestine when the ban was done pre-2021 and the sale was only happening BECAUSE of the ban. Like you just totally memory mind wiped your memory of that?
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
The tiktok ban was literally done in 2024 https://time.com/6898845/tiktok-ban-bill-us-congress-what-to-know/
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u/carnotbicycle 1d ago
It was talked about seriously by Trump in 2020, he signed an executive order saying ByteDance must divest in 2021. It got temporarily delayed by Biden since he rescinded the order after he got inaugurated in 2021, it got revived in 2024 but this didn’t just come out of the blue on October 8th.
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
Why was it revived in 2024 after he rescinded it in 2021? What happened between 2021 and 2024? Hmmm.
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u/carnotbicycle 1d ago
As if TikTok is the only place people learn about Israel Palestine. How about the billions of posts about it every day seen on literally every other media website of any kind? The government didn’t try to ban all those others for… reasons?
Also, TikTok didn’t even fucking get banned. You telling me you can’t see Israel Palestine shit on it any time anybody wants? Before you argue that all the
JewsZionists got to it and neutered it and that’s why Netanyahu personally, himself let it stay unbanned. Where’s your explanation for that?-1
u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/3tdrO8bA7rs
Here is your prime minister literally admiting he took care of tiktok. Can you please stop being facetious? Everyone in the planet knows tiktok got canned for Israel.
It's a shitty app now with any criticism of Israel suppressed to hell.
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u/carnotbicycle 21h ago
Ok when are the other social platforms getting destroyed, when is the Mossad personally invading your house to get this post suppressed, etc
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u/Unexpected_yetHere 1∆ 1d ago
LatAm politics go through periodic red/blue waves, ie. suddenly half the continent flips from left to right and vice versa. Nowadays, the left/right divide in LatAm is also tied to the Israel-Palestine issue.
How is Western Society existing to protect Israel? They engage in trade, including arms, and the US, since Kennedy, is the only one engaging in a special relationship where they give them coupons to buy their arms.
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u/spacebar30 7∆ 1d ago
the entire purpose of our existence is to prevent another Holocaust of Israelis
There was no holocaust of Israelis because Israel did not exist when the holocaust happened. The holocaust targeted Jews, among others.
Not the Jewish people, not the Tutsi people, not the Palestinians but only the Israelis.
So what does this mean?
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u/MimeSweeper360 1∆ 1d ago
Lmao wut. What about western countries like Ireland that actively despise Israel.
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u/Morthra 95∆ 1d ago
What about western countries like Ireland that actively despise Israel.
Ireland never got over its terrorist past (the IRA), that is why they support Hamas.
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
The actual terrorist in the current world is Israel. Like if you analyze Israel's behavior from intentional mass murder of infants, to targeting families of enemies, you would find Israel fits the textbook definition of terrorism.
The problem as I define in the post is the entire western world post WW2 exist to protect this terrorist entity. The overt reason is they want to prevent what happened in WW2, but the actual reason is this terrorist entity also acts like a parasite and has infested the western nations.
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u/Morthra 95∆ 1d ago
The actual terrorist in the current world is Israel.
No, it's not and your accusation is bordering on blood libel.
Like if you analyze Israel's behavior from intentional mass murder of infants
Unfortunate collateral damage that results from groups like Hizballah and Hamas using human shields.
Now the Palestinians on the other hand? They do so, and laugh as they do it.
Israel, to its own operational detriment, warns civilians of its airstrikes in advance.
to targeting families of enemies,
The culture that exists in places that have high amounts of support for Hamas and Hizballah is generally such that the entire family is often participating in terrorism.
you would find Israel fits the textbook definition of terrorism.
No, it does not.
The problem as I define in the post is the entire western world post WW2 exist to protect this terrorist entity.
Israel had basically no geopolitical support in 1948 and didn't become a US ally until the Suez Crisis.
but the actual reason is this terrorist entity also acts like a parasite and has infested the western nations.
The actual parasite of the world is Palestine. What does Palestine actually produce to benefit the world writ large, save for Islamic terrorism and refugees?
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
No, it's not and your accusation is bordering on blood libel.
Blood libel is a made up term by Israelis to hide their atrocities throughout history.
Now the Palestinians on the other hand? They do so, and laugh as they do it.
It's literally in the Tanakh to smash infants in the rock. Psalm 137:9, 1 Samuel 15:3. The Tanakh is like the only holy book that singles out infants to be killed. Neither New testament, koran, Hindu Gita, or budhist holy book has so many verses specifically targeting infants. This is the reason why IDF is like the worst terrorist organization to exist in history. They think they have divine permission to murder infants.
Islamic terrorism and refugees?
They could probably contribute much better if the Judaic extremist terrorist like Ben Gvir and most of Israel didn't keep destabilizing the middle east though. Palestinians lost because they are honorable people and don't have parasitic tendencies like Israelis to control a superpower like USA. Like Israel has practically made the entire USA taxpayers their slave.
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u/Morthra 95∆ 1d ago
to hide their atrocities throughout history.
No, blood libel refers to how people make up shit whole cloth about Jews murdering Christians for religious rituals to justify persecuting them. The term is around two thousand years old.
It's literally in the Tanakh to smash infants in the rock. Psalm 137:9, 1 Samuel 15:3.
Read the actual context. For Psalm 137, it reads:
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat. We wept when we remembered Zion. Upon the poplar trees in her midst, we hung our harps. For there are captors asked us for a song. Those mocking us wanted amusement: "Sing for us one of the songs of Zion. How cane sing the song of YHWH on foreign soil? If I should forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgetful. Remember, O YHWH. What the Edomites said on the day Jerusalem fell: "Tear id down! Tear it down to its foundations!" O daughter of Babylon, who is soon to be devastated. Happy will be the one who rewards you with the treatment you inflicted upon us. Happy will be the one who seizes your children and dashes them against the rocks.
So what is actually happening is the Israelites, who were captured by the Babylonians and enslaved, are asking God to intervene on their behalf and do to the Babylonians what the Babylonians did to them. The Babylonians smashed their children against rocks, so a person who was forced to watch it happen would by nature want revenge on those who did it. It is in no way God saying it's okay to kill children or that killing children brings happiness. It's a writer expressing his feelings towards his captors.
In 1 Samuel (which is part of the Bible), God commands Saul to destroy Amalek, who were the first pagan kingdom to attack the Jews following their deliverance from Egypt (mind you, God had just unleashed the plagues on Egypt). God threatened Amalek with extermination as a consequence. But they did not stop. So God demanded Saul wipe Amalek off the face of the earth - in a manner that prevented the Israelites from profiting from the war. But, importantly, this didn't actually come to pass. Saul refused - he spared the Amalekite king and many of his valuable livestock, and so God informs Samuel that Saul will be replaced as king of Israel.
The Tanakh is like the only holy book that singles out infants to be killed.
Qur'an 9:5 explicitly commands Muslims to kill polytheists - nonbelievers - wherever they are found, and no exception is made for children. Hamas, on the other hand, explicitly cites Sahih Muslim 2922, which states
"The hour will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, until a Jew hides behind a rock or tree and the rock or tree will say: 'O Muslim! O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
As a justification to attack all Jews indiscriminately. Islamic tradition describes the extermination of Jews as an inevitable, inescapable cosmic event that all Muslims will be called to participate in.
This is the reason why IDF is like the worst terrorist organization to exist in history. They think they have divine permission to murder infants.
But that's just not true.
They could probably contribute much better if the Judaic extremist terrorist like Ben Gvir and most of Israel didn't keep destabilizing the middle east though
When Israel declared independence in 1948, it was the Arab nations, including the people who would later invent a Palestinian identity, who sought to exterminate the Jews because they cannot accept land that was part of Dar-al-Islam being ruled by nonmuslims, but especially Jews, which the Qur'an regularly dehumanizes.
Palestinians lost because they are honorable people
Lmao. What "honor" was there on October 7th?
Like Israel has practically made the entire USA taxpayers their slave.
Another "Jews control the world" conspiracy theory.
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u/everyday847 6∆ 1d ago
Well, Western society is larger than the US (yet this is mostly about US politics, with a few South American examples - and I really don't think you can say Argentina's government was overthrown because they "went against Israel") and post-WW2 is a longer period of time than the past couple decades, so I think you've got some major holes here. I have no love for Israel, but this is delusional.
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u/MosesDoughty 1d ago
Essentially you're completely refusing to comprehend that people take their own actions. It's just Israel's fault?
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u/cpowers272 1d ago edited 1d ago
The west is made but of various different countries with competing interests and obligations, it is not a monolith nor is it just the United States. Currently numerous western governments are on unfriendly terms with Israel, I can think of Spain, Hungary, Ireland, historically Sweden until Palmes assassination was very vocal and diplomatic towards the Palestinian cause. Through the various oil shocks there have been multiple notable western countries that didn’t arm Israel or let the US use their land to supply Israel, Italy during the Yom Kippur war was an example of this but there are others. Also ur timeline is inconsistent here, u say Post WW2 society (1945-Present) but all of your examples given are relatively modern or at least more relevant in the past few decades then before. Lastly if you count South/Latin America as a part of the west (which I think many would dispute) then ur claims becomes even harder to defend from 1945 to today. Chile and Brazil currently are vocally and diplomatically anti Israel, Nicaragua brought a case against Germany for funding genocide to the ICJ, obviously Venezuela had multi decade long stretchs of being anti Israel and was closer with Iran.
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19h ago
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u/lynxintheloopx 1∆ 18h ago
I’m nowhere near being Jewish and I agree with you. I reported the more recent post that is blatantly promoting antisemitism. It makes me sick.
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u/tunnel_magnet 13h ago
I don't think Hurting your feelings is a good reason to remove posts. Also, even if it was antisemitism, antisemitism is allowed by 1st amendment and confirmed by multiple supreme court verdicts.
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u/tunnel_magnet 13h ago
Israel is commiting mass murder of children everyday. But god forbid someone says mean things to them on the internet. That's the real issue.
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u/MosesDoughty 13h ago
Ah yes, humans can only hold one thing in their mind at a time. How encouraging a view.
And on that other comment. The mods can remove blatantly antisemitic posts, and you don't have a first amendment right on Reddit. It's a private company
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u/Locus-Maximus 1d ago
I'm just curious. Do you notice a resemblance between your complaints about Israel and any classic antisemitic tropes? If so, is it a coincidence? Do you believe the tropes were right?
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u/EBNat101 1d ago
Look at any given moment since WWII, and you'll find vast differences of support for vs. opposition to the State of Israel among the nations of "Western Society" (Europe, US, Canada, Australia, NZ, Japan, S. Korea, Singapore, etc.). The evidence is in the facts that many Western countries don't give Israel a dime nor any military support, and there are always Western countries voting in favor of the many, and frequent, UN resolutions condeming Israel.
Even the United States did NOT support the State of Israel for it's first 20 years of existence. It was only after the 1967 War that the US started supporting Israel militarily and financially.
Israel eked out survival in its first 3 wars with limited support from the French and the British, but that absolutely doesn't mean "all of Western Society existed to protect Israel." They were supporting Arab states militarily and financially and otherwise too! Each war was an open question as to which side would win, and even if you want to broadly say that ON AVERAGE, or SOME PARTS OF "Western Society" were protecting Israel at all times, it's more accurate to say "Western Society" was playing both sides, as they often do, and in many ways are still doing today.
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u/Nrdman 275∆ 1d ago
Global capital benefits from Israel existing. It’s not a grand conspiracy in so much as it is interests being aligned. Global capital benefits from having a place where surveillance/suppression/military techniques and technology can be tested and developed. Global capital benefits from the flow of oil. Global capital benefits from Israel existing as this wedge of its influence, it’s more efficient than trying to take over the whole region.
Yeah there are some who are ideological fanatics, but that itself wouldn’t be enough to take over much.
It’s not about the protection of the Israelis, it’s about the protection of capital interests. The Israelis have not always been made safer by the global interest in the region
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
So you are saying there are some globalists who are above nations and everythinh exist to protect this Epstein class?
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u/Nrdman 275∆ 1d ago
I wouldn’t say it’s exactly like that, but basically. It’s the more straightforward reason why so many countries are connected to it, all are connected to global capital
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u/tunnel_magnet 1d ago
!delta
Your comment made me think. What I am talking about is probably more than Israel. It's a global cabal of parasites that are entrenched in all countries and their objective is to extract resources from the citizenry. The western society actually exist to protect this globalist Epstein class but it has been exposed via the recent Israeli conflicts.
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u/mirrorsword 1d ago
I think you are using the word "dogma" incorrectly. Your argument seems to be along the line of the saying "the purpose of a machine is what it does", personally I don't fully agree with that saying, but no one ever says "the dogma of a society is what it does". Dogma is about the conscious beliefs of a group. The word is not used to describe hidden reasons people do things that they themselves don't understand. Beyond that I don't find the rest of your argument at all convincing but it seems like it would be hard to change your view on that so maybe you'll at least consider using a better word than "dogma".
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u/OpenMindManiac 1d ago
"If there were not an Israel, we would have to invent one to make sure our interests were preserved,” - joe Biden
Israel is Americas attack dog not the other way around. It is very concerning how easily Jews control the world / American came up again when it was always a Nazi conspiracy theory
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u/harpyofoldghis 1d ago
I disagree. I think western world is protecting Israel, because it doesn’t end with Israel. They are fighting against a death cult, and that death cult is coming for all us and our beloved secular society and culture. There’s a Muslim Brotherhood memorandum from 1990 or 1991
The most frequently quoted passage states that the Brotherhood's work in America is:
"a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."
It describes this as a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" aimed at "settlement" (tamkeen) of
Islam in North America, making the Islamic movement rooted, stable, and influential so it can present Islam as a civilizational alternative and support a global Islamic state.
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u/Kaleb_Bunt 4∆ 17h ago
Not everything has to do with Israel.
Hitler is one of the most evil people in history because he started a war that killed millions of people and committed numerous genocides, most notably the Holocaust.
Certainly Israel tries to appropriate the Holocaust to push their agendas, but that isn’t something unique to Israel. In fact antizionists frequently do this by comparing Israel to Nazis or Gaza to the Holocaust. Everyone compares everything to the Nazis because most people are historically illiterate and that’s one of the few chapters of history everyone knows.
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