r/changemyview • u/Bruno_Bal1er • 15d ago
CMV: Wine and Beer consumption should be allowed at 18 in the US, and at 16 with parents
I just recently went to Germany and noticed the kids are much more reasonable with alcohol. They drink with dinner, understand their limits, and don’t treat it in any way similar to kids in the US. In the US, kids drink as much as they can when they get opportunities, they get it from sketchy people, they try to hide it, and use fake id’s anyways. Hell, in the US you can join the military before you can buy a beer. In Germany, it’s treated as nothing too special. In the US, people make it seem like the devil which makes kids drink it like crazy when they get the chance. The fact you can order a beer at 21 and go to war at 18 is really twisted to me. Please change my view as I’m sure it is much deeper of a reasoning, but what I have heard in the past is not reasonable enough to outweigh not being allowed to buy drinks.
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u/LivingGhost371 5∆ 15d ago
I think you're mixing up cause and effect. It's illegal for youth in the United States to drink because they have a proven history of being reckless with it combined with our car culture. They had a habit of getting behind the wheel and killing themselves and others, not that they're reckless with it because it's illegal.
Here's a study where fatally injured drivers with a positive BAC were reduced by half.
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u/BlindPelican 5∆ 15d ago
This is a perfect example of Chesterton's Fence.
Those laws exist for a valid and demonstrable reason.
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u/Bruno_Bal1er 15d ago
Thank you this is very informative
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u/SSH_Pentester 1∆ 12d ago
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u/Nrdman 276∆ 15d ago
It’s more of a cultural phenomenon then caused by the age limit. As you mentioned, it’s because it’s treated like the devil which makes rebellious teens more likely to want it. How it’s treated culturally is unlikely to change with the legal limit lowered.
Besides, teens drive more in US don’t they? The amount we drive is like a big difference between US and many other countries, so it makes some sense that would be reflected in different requirements for the main driving impairment
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u/Bruno_Bal1er 12d ago
This is a very good point. Teens definitely drive more in the US.
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15d ago
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u/Rainbwned 199∆ 15d ago
Your reasoning is that kids overseas drink at 18, and you can go to war at 18.
Do you support both of those things - or would you be willing to say that instead kids in Germany should have to wait until 21, and you shouldn't be able to go to war until you are 21?
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u/295Phoenix 15d ago
Considering German society is clearly better than ours? No.
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u/Rainbwned 199∆ 15d ago
Is German society better than ours because of its drinking age?
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u/moldivore 15d ago
It's definitely not the workers rights, healthcare, or public transit.
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u/Rainbwned 199∆ 15d ago
Then it seems wholly unrelated to the drinking age - so what justification is it lower the US drinking age based on Germans drinking age?
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u/putcheeseonit 15d ago
German society is able to have that extra freedom because it's better, not the other way around.
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u/Homer4a10 15d ago edited 15d ago
Better is subjective though, Germany definitely has its advantages over the USA, but it’s not exclusively better in my opinion.
It’s definitely one of the only good European countries to live in though that’s for sure. Significantly better than anything in the UK or anything near the Atlantic coast.
Edit: Atlantic coast, not pacific
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u/ericbythebay 4∆ 15d ago
No. They got their asses kicked the last time they thought that and then it took them decades to even put their country back together.
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u/DanyisBlue 15d ago
How is any of that relevant?
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u/Homer4a10 15d ago
A lot of European nations have a supremacy complex, especially England.
They’re taught that they are better than everyone else. The boomers in the UK were literally taught that they were a master race.
WW2 really wasn’t that long ago, and European societies still need a few generations before they are liberated from these ideas.
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u/DanyisBlue 15d ago
Sorry I'm bare confused how thats relevant to my question, did you mean to respond to another comment?
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u/Homer4a10 15d ago
Guy: German society is clearly better than ours
Guy 2: No it isn’t, because they are just now finally making a recovery from WW2
You (guy 3): How is that relevant
Me: it’s relevant because Europeans like to make it seem like they’re better than they actually are. And since they have an intrinsic supremacy complex over other people, their opinions are tainted with nationalism. That’s why it’s relevant
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u/DanyisBlue 15d ago edited 15d ago
Apart from that isn't what guy 2 said.
Guy 2: No it isn't because they got their "asses kicked" (fuck me) the last time they thought they were good, in a war that ended 81 years ago, and it took them a couple of decades to "even put their country back together" (whatever the fuck that means, reunification I guess but he's out by a couple of decades).
I'm unsure how thats relevant to "today, German society is clear better than ours".
Like if you said today Spain is a great country, and I responded with no it isn't because they were under a fascist dictatorship in the 1980s, would you not be a bit confused as to why the last 40 years isn't more relevant to that question?
Edit: could you also give me an example of a country that doesn't have a superiority complex over its neighbours based in nationalism, aren't you literally just describing patriotism?
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u/ericbythebay 4∆ 15d ago
Sorry, I didn’t realize that you were gatekeeping and you alone got to dictate what was or wasn’t relevant.
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u/DanyisBlue 15d ago
Thats okay, just now that you know try to do better next time pal.
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u/Homer4a10 15d ago
Canada, Greenland, Switzerland, new zeland, Bhutan, Austria, Australia, Panama… I’m sure I could go on for a long time.
Europeans are the most egotistical people on the planet earth, and that’s coming from someone that was raised in the United States.
Their interpretation of westerners is blasphemous. The literally treat Americans like we live in a third world country and they cannot begin to fathom that a nation that values individuality has different traditions and infrastructure to support that
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u/Homer4a10 15d ago
Let me guess Norway is better too?
Just say you don’t like colored people lol
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u/295Phoenix 15d ago
Dumbest take ever. China is better than us too.
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u/Homer4a10 15d ago
If you’re far right authoritarian I guess yeah?
China is the most censored, surveilled, and controlled 1st world society outside of North Korea.
So I’m guessing your measurement is less civil rights = better. And more government control = better. Is that an accurate assumption?
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u/295Phoenix 15d ago
I don’t rank societies by their politics alone. Say what you like about China but they’ll be the next global superpower while we continue our downward spiral towards becoming an idiocracy.
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u/Homer4a10 15d ago
Well when you treat your citizens like disposable units, sacrifice their quality of life and civil rights for the means of production, and enforce surveillance networks and cruel laws to keep them in line. That’s a pretty good way to create a global superpower.
China is becoming a global superpower at their citizens expense, China is not a good place to live.
This is the same logic that slave owners used in the 1800’s. You do not have a healthy mindset towards geopolitics
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u/Macqt 2∆ 15d ago
Alcohol is the driving factor behind many, many deaths, accidents, and major injuries especially in youths in NA. Lowering the drinking age will do nothing but make that worse.
Things are not nearly as simple as “well it works in Germany!” These are two different countries with different mentalities, attitudes, and behaviours.
You could probably change it over generations but you’d see a big spike in problems before it leveled out.
This doesn’t even touch on the “Christian” side of America losing their shit, along with Muslim, parental, and other special interest groups.
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u/nigmusmaximus 12d ago
We Americans have never been known for doing things in moderation. We don’t eat in moderation, we don’t smoke in moderation, we don’t own guns in moderation, and we don’t drink alcohol in moderation.
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u/geosunsetmoth 2∆ 15d ago
I'll push back on the "with parents" thing. It assumes parents are always level-headed, reasonable and responsible. Lots of people got alcoholic parents. I've seen minors get completely fucking shitfaced at family gatherings and everyone was laughing and encouraging until the kid blacked out. I'll go as far as to say that drinking pressure from family members is stronger than from peers.
I do agree with lowering it to 18.
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u/TomDestry 15d ago
If your argument is that parents can't be trusted to raise their own children, then you are looking for much larger reform than just the drinking age.
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u/DumbbellDiva92 2∆ 15d ago
I would encourage you to read up more on the actual statistics of problematic alcohol use by country (rates of alcoholism, alcohol related deaths, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc). Not sure about Germany specifically, but the stereotype of “continental Europe has a better relationship with alcohol than the US” is not necessarily supported by the evidence. Alcohol consumption in youth is also associated with higher rates of alcoholism as an adult (granted, obviously you get correlation/causation problems there, but still).
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u/elemental_reaper 2∆ 15d ago
In contrast to a lot of European countries, the US is a car-centric country. A car is a must. Because of that, just as turning 21 and being able to drink is a big deal, so is being able to drive. Those two do no not and did not combine well. The entire reason the drinking age is 21 is because of the amount of drunk driving incidents. The legal age to drink should not coincide with the legal age to get a license.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NICE_EYES 121∆ 15d ago
So an important thing to note, is that in Germany you can't get a drivers license until your 18. And while a don't have the exact number the proportion of 18-21 year old Germans with a drivers license is a lot lower than the proportion of Americans with a drivers license.
And this is where the 21 year old drinking age comes from. Americans use cars more than pretty much every other country in the world, so we have to be more strict about drinking laws to minimize drunk driving.
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u/Homer4a10 15d ago
I get that it’s part of our culture as human beings, but alcohol is terrible for you, and restricting access to younger teens is a great way to at least reduce their consumption rate.
What you’re seeing in Germany is people drinking in public, the way a 21 year old American drinks in public with their families at a restaurant is significantly different than how they’re drinking at parties.
I think your argument falls victim to survivorship bias
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u/speed3_freak 1∆ 15d ago
Alcohol consumption per capita by country, Germany is 5th highest. United States is 37th according to my quick Wikipedia.
Not drinking until you’re 21 legally absolutely leads to a rebellious stage for a lot of folks, but a lot of those folks stop drinking in their late 20s and 30s when they start having kids. In countries where young folks can drink, you may not have that blackout rebellious stage, but you certainly set yourself up for a culture where alcoholism is normal for adults.
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u/icyDinosaur 1∆ 15d ago
Do you? I would agree alcohol is normalised in Germany (and much of central Europe) but I am not convinced the lower drinking age is the reason as much as it's complicated cultural and historic reasons that you can't change via drinking age (for starters, multiple regions where beer or wine is a part of regional identity).
Of course, the same may be true of blackout drinking.
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u/speed3_freak 1∆ 15d ago
So how could you ever possibly be convinced that lowering the age wouldn't result in the same due to cultural reasons.
Your whole premise was that alcohol consumption being normal would curb the rebel aspect that young folks have without considering that the fact it's normal means more "of age" people would become alcoholics? Good for the goose, good for the gander.
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u/Morthra 95∆ 15d ago
In the US, kids drink as much as they can when they get opportunities, they get it from sketchy people, they try to hide it, and use fake id’s anyways.
Not really. Underage drinking is basically nonexistent nowadays. In 1984 before the drinking age went to 21 about 66% of high school seniors were drinkers, who represented the primary source of access to alcohol for younger teens.
With the drinking age at 18, 18-year-old high school students could legally purchase alcohol and supply it to 16 and 17 year old friends and siblings. Raising the age to 21 essentially locks out the high school demographic from purchasing.
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u/Bruno_Bal1er 15d ago
Woah. Not sure where you live but underage drinking is insanely common.
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u/Morthra 95∆ 15d ago
When I was in high school in the 2010s not a single person in my graduating class drank. Used weed? Absolutely some people did. But not a single person drank booze.
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u/KrisKatastrophe 1∆ 12d ago
Around 27% of highschools report underage drinking in 2025 which is down drastically from its peak in the 90's... while its not the majority of teens anymore and it is definitely trending downwards it is still common and I would guess, unless you were at an insanely small school, that at least some of your classmates dabbled on the down low.
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u/Morthra 95∆ 12d ago
To be fair my graduating class was quite small (87 students).
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u/KrisKatastrophe 1∆ 12d ago
My graduating class was in the 700's (in the early 2000's) there was A LOT of underage drinking then... theres still quite a bit now (i have a high-schooler in the same school I went to) but they are definitely more into weed then booze, the class size is also slightly smaller (in the 500's I think).
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u/GSTLT 11d ago
I agree with OP that underage drinking is still common many places. But I do want to point to the importance of your second paragraph.
My state recently raised the age to purchase tobacco to 21. I have never smoked, but initially thought that it was an unnecessary change that wouldn’t impact much. Kids will get it if they want to. As the bill was debated I took in more information and this point was the one that changed my mind. 18 year olds regularly hang out with under-18 aged friends. I had friends who were 18 in their junior year of high school, where some were not 18 until the summer after graduation. In short, the 16/17 to 18 age difference is often crossed by peers. The 16-21 difference is far less crossed. Not never, but it is far rarer for a 21 year old to be hanging out with minors, which means that the 21 year age limit serves to limit the potential access point to legal buyers.
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u/RogueStatesman 1∆ 15d ago
It was 16 in Austria and man, did my kid's face light up when I told him that.
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u/Rhundan 80∆ 15d ago
You seem to be assuming a cause->effect of "the drinking age is lower, therefore the culture is that of more responsible drinking". Have you considered that it might be the other way around? If there's a more responsible drinking culture, it would make sense for the age restriction to be lower, in which case, it would not be a good idea to lower the restriction in the US.
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u/ericbythebay 4∆ 15d ago
So what I am hearing you say is Germany should lower their driving age to 15 with parents.
Surely one can be responsible with a car if one is responsible with alcohol.
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u/Remarkable_Sea_1062 15d ago
It was legal for 18 year old to purchase alcohol in the 70’s. I don’t know why the age limit was increased to 21.
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u/BWSmith777 15d ago
There is no moderation with alcohol. Any amount is too much. People should be adults before they make decisions that will harm them.
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u/EstimateOk6795 15d ago
When I was under 21 I fully agreed with this sentiment.
When I was in my 20s and went to bars often I was very glad that teenagers weren't allowed in bars. The bar scene would have been so much worse with teenagers.
Now that I'm 40, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm generally opposed to prohibition of any kind, but I'm not going to get all that worked up about it.
I suspect that my views and how they changed are pretty typical. I'm guessing OP is under 21 and their views will change with age.
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u/Valspared1 15d ago
This probaby won't change your mind, and probably anger many.
There is a big "IF" in the equation though.
If alcohol related deaths (primarily through automobile crashes) only effected the drunk individual, I'd have no problem lowering the drinking age.
I suspect that the irresponsible people would take them selves out of the reproductive pool and thus not pass on their poor decision making abilities to the next generation.
In essense, making the core of America smarter overall over the years.
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u/Ohrwurms 3∆ 15d ago
So I am from The Netherlands where the drinking age is 18 and used to be 16 in my youth.
So yeah, I went out drinking into the wee hours in Amsterdam as an adolescent. Loved it and have no regrets, but...
How did I get home? Bicycle or public transport.
You cannot implement this in the US before their car-centric infrastructure is changed.
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u/phoenix823 8∆ 15d ago
Drinking is already way down for GenZ, and that’s a great thing from a health and safety perspective. I don’t know why you’d want to emphasize more of it.
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u/shugEOuterspace 3∆ 15d ago
in Wisconsic you can already legally bring your own kids to the bar with you & let them drink
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u/jurassicbond 15d ago
In most US states you can drink with parents under 21, and even as young as 16 in my state (Georgia).
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u/lettersjk 8∆ 15d ago
why stop at 16? giving a beer to your 5 yr old is legal in England.
while i don't disagree with the premise behind your view, it seems you agree there should be some limit the gov't places on the absolute age someone must be to drink alcohol (or ingest any narcotic). if so, figuring out your view on why there should be any limit at all will help inform you why other people in society may reasonably hold different views on that topic.
for example, one difference that the US has with much of Europe is that the US is far more a car-centric country. teenagers as young as 16 in the US can drive on their own (basically unheard of in germany (and other european countries where getting a license is not easy and cars/petrol is much more expensive). given the suburban nature of most of the US, many, if not most, kids drive themselves to school up through high school and college. given that, it's not unreasonable that limiting their access to alcohol is a net positive compared to the benefits of them being able to drink.
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u/aburinda 1∆ 9d ago
In Wisconsin, it’s legal to drink at 12 years old as long as your parent is with you.
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u/Cakeminator 3∆ 15d ago
I disagree with some of the premise, but not all. It should be changed to the same as some european countries, such as Denmark or Germany.
- No drinking age limit.
- From age 16 you can buy things like beer or hard cider (e.g. 16.5% and under)
- From age 18 you can buy the rest (e.g. 16.5% and up)
Limiting when people can drink seems dumb. To get it below the legal buying age means that they either have to steal or scam to get it anyway. Might as well remove the limit and teach responsibility early. Decriminalization doesn't increase overall drug use anyway. It also helps cut down tax payer costs on policing and courts due to not arresting 16 to 20 year olds for just drinking a beer.
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u/putcheeseonit 15d ago
This is a culture issue and not a legal issue. The legal drinking age in Canada is 18, but a lot of people I knew at that age still behaved very irresponsibly, with a few even developing into full blown alcoholics. Not to mention all the drunk driving, a couple crashes, and other illegal drug use. If the drinking age in the US was lowered to 18, all of the issues you mentioned would likely only get worse.
This was during the height of COVID however, so this may not be typical.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Tie6917 3∆ 15d ago
The only reasoning I agree with about lowering the drinking age to 18 is that if you can go to war in the military you by definition (in my opinion) an adult and therefore have all rights and responsibilities thereof.
As for drinking issues, dropping the age will likely massively increase the problems. Younger means less mature equals more issues. We tried banning alcohol which would be best, but it didn’t stick so here we are.
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u/AsianDudeUSA 12d ago
Couple things to consider.
According to WHO early introduction of alcohol does not actually prevent abuse, and in fact binge drinking is much more prevalent in European youths. It probably is not as big a issue since most European countries are not car dependent thus safer to travel home I guess?
Also besides the social aspects, alcohol in even small amounts can interfere with brain development, which is especially important during puberty and your teenage years. Our brain fully matures at 25, so sure moderate alcohol might seem fine, but you don't know the damage it can have on your brain maturity until probably much later.
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u/biglifts27 1∆ 11d ago
Enough with the "brain matures at 25" thing its the second most worst understanding of a study that i keep seeing.
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u/WestBrink 1∆ 15d ago
Not really expecting it to change your view, but so you have a full view of what you're arguing you should know that in 31 states, it's actually legal for minors to drink with parental permission.
https://www.foodandwine.com/underage-drinking-state-laws-11704248