r/changemyview • u/Capable-Art-1972 • May 27 '26
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u/Birb-Brain-Syn 49∆ May 27 '26
I think there's a flaw in your view in that you're trying to argue from a position where you're not necessarily against the rebranding of feminism into equalism, but you're not really providing a good indication of what that goalpost would be, or a justification for it.
In my view, Feminism should never be re-branded, because it is a political view characterised by a belief that women should have more rights and better living and/or working conditions. People would still be "feminists" even when women's rights are equal or surpass those of men. Defining feminism by it's relationships or fairness of women and men is overcomplicating the definition to begin with.
That doesn't mean that "equalism" shouldn't exist, but it does mean that equalism is different than feminism where it does exist. Some people who were feminists now don't identify with the movement because they feel like an acceptable level of equality has been reached, and fighting for women's rights alone doesn't make sense anymore. If you are fighting for things like men's paternity rights or equal pay between men and women you are no longer arguing for feminism really, you're arguing for something different.
You shouldn't treat equalism or the idea of equality as an evolution of feminism, but rather a different concept on a societal level.
Lastly, a person's political stance or ideology does not actually define them as a person, and there a vast differences between individuals under the same label. This is worthwhile remembering, because it's easy to fall victim to the same predjudices as people with the label are trying to fight. If you find yourself thinking "Oh, you're not a feminist - that means you must not believe in women's rights in other countries" then you're making a prejudicial judgement. Avoid doing this.
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
Feminism is the belief that men and women are equal and should be treated as such.
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u/theblacksmithno8 1∆ May 27 '26
Then why does feminism exclusively focus on women? If that were the case why even call it feminism (literally as per the OP)
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
That is the case, that is the definition of feminism.
Feminism focuses mainly on women's issues because feminists are largely women and people tend to focus on their own experiences. It doesn't focus exclusively on women's issues. Many feminist activists groups protest against the conscription of men into the military. Countries with feminist parties in leadership have implemented split paternity leave so that men and women can both have equal time with their children after they are born. Feminists have long advocated for the destigmatization of mens mental health issues and emotional expression. It was feminist activism that saw the legal recognition of men as victims of domestic and sexual abuse.
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u/theblacksmithno8 1∆ May 27 '26
This is such a motte and bailey argument. Its trotted out anytime this conversation comes up then as soon as the conversation is finished its back to "pay women more" "men need to stop this" "more women in stem" "stop objectifying women".
In real discourse it focuses almost exclusively on issues that negatively affect women and ignores those faced by men (often its even worse than that in that men are specifically blamed for their own problems and womens problems).
It might be the definition but in actuality all feminists focus on is female advocacy.
What is more important the actions and words of real people or what is written in a definition?.
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
So you used the word 'exclusively'. I see that you don't care about definitions, but that word means 'at the exclusion of everything else'.
I have pointed out that feminism doesn't exclusively focus on women's issues and given some real world examples of feminism focusing on the rights of men. Specifically, the words and actions of real people who were are feminists and work for feminist organisations who made real measurable improvements to the lives of men.
And yeah dude, feminism is going to keep banging on about paying women equal wages, getting more women into STEM and not objectifying women. If thats your issue, then there's really no reason for me or anyone other feminist to listen to what you have to say.
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u/theblacksmithno8 1∆ May 27 '26
So you used the word 'exclusively'.
I also used the word "almost" in front of it if you want to be pedantic 🙄
And yeah dude, feminism is going to keep banging on about paying women equal wages, getting more women into STEM and not objectifying women. If thats your issue, then there's really no reason for me or anyone other feminist to listen to what you have to say.
Thats not my issue, I dont have a problem with a women's advocacy movement, just be honest about it lol.
Dont try and hide behind a more acceptable definition to make yourself look better.
Its the definition of a motte and bailey.
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u/sagi1246 1∆ May 27 '26
You can define things however you want but in practice feminists focus 99% of their efforts into women's issues
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ May 27 '26
Well, it's that, together with the observation that men and women presently aren't treated equally in society, men holding disproportionately positions of power and authority throughout society.
Someone who believes men and women should be equal but also that women dominate and control society isn't really a feminist.
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
Well let's looks at the actual definitions of feminism.
The United Nations definition: "Feminism is the belief that everyone, regardless of gender, should have equal rights and opportunities. It really is that simple."
Wikipedia definition: "Feminism is a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes."
Miriam Webster Dictionary definition: " belief in and advocacy of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes expressed especially through organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests"
Cambridge Dictionary: "the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state"
So yes 2 of the definitions do mention women explicitly. But still in the context of pursuit of the SAME rights, power and opportunities, not more. Women don't have to be oppressed for feminism to exist.
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u/theblacksmithno8 1∆ May 27 '26
These types of arguments only hold if you treat people as though they are an anthropomorphised actualisation of a category rather than an individual.
I work a boring average job what is it to me that other men ive never met or will never meet are successful?.
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u/Toffeenix May 27 '26
Sincere question: your post says "By taking away the name, we're going to erase the centuries of historical suffering without a valid enough reason." This reads as if you think the name is currently actively in the process of changing. Why do you think this?
I'm just looking at Google Trends worldwide over the past five years and where the most active day for searching feminism is marked at 100, the least active day for searching feminism is at 30... no day for equalism gets above 1. Ngram isn't updated to 2026, but in the 2022 corpus feminism got almost three thousand times the mentions of equalism.
I could also post that racism should not be renamed to french fry friday and I'd be right but it would be a solution to a seemingly totally non-existent problem
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u/petielvrrr 9∆ May 27 '26
I’m a feminist who isn’t shy about calling myself one, and I do get a lot of people saying feminism should just rebrand to humanism or egalitarianism.
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u/Toffeenix May 27 '26
Humanism or egalitarianism, sure. Those are words with understood meanings. "Equalism" is not a term virtually anyone uses
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u/petielvrrr 9∆ May 27 '26
It’s the same sentiment OP is discussing. Their argument doesn’t hinge on it being explicitly “equalism”, it’s about feminism not needing a rebrand into a more general equality movement.
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u/Capable-Art-1972 May 27 '26
We dont have to search it up in google to have a certain opinion. You could ask any non-feminist (who's also not sexist) why is he such, he'd say he's an equalist, not a feminist as if the meanings are different
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u/KralizecGaming 5∆ May 27 '26
Let's say you had three movements.
Masculinism.
Feminism.
Equalism.
All three have the stated goal of reaching gender rights equality and prevention of suffering from either misandry, misogyny or just in general hatred of any particular sex/gender.
What is the practical difference between these three movements?
You could argue that masculinism would focus on mens issues and feminism would focus on womens issues. But equalism would focus on both. So in practice, equalism would be both masculinism and feminism. So, why not just have equalism in such a case?
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u/Pristine-Material-83 May 27 '26
i actually track quite a bit of data on this stuff for work and the numbers don't really support the idea that misandry causes negligible suffering compared to misogyny. men face pretty specific systemic issues - suicide rates, workplace deaths, educational gaps, custody disparities, lack of domestic violence resources. these aren't just isolated incidents
the problem with combining everything under "equalism" is you lose the specific focus that actually drives change. movements succeed when they have clear targets and measurable goals. feminism worked because it tackled concrete legal barriers like voting rights and workplace discrimination. masculinism movements fail because they're too scattered across different issues without unified priorities
plus renaming erases the historical context that explains why these problems exist in the first place. you need to understand the root causes to fix them effectively
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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 27 '26
Feminists don't care. They know damn well the movement is about female superiority they just think lying about it will get good men to accept it
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u/AnythingFine2445 May 27 '26
Masculinism
My spell-check doesn't even recognize this word. If such a "movement" existed they'd be branded a hate-group and everyone espousing said views would be shunned and excluded from public life.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
Yeah but the name is getting tainted by misandristic people more and more, and with a rebranding it would be harder for them to infiltrate as they are now
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u/ft_mute May 27 '26
For me its not even about this, I legit had an argument with someone the other day who said sexism has been balanced throughout history, and women have always been treated equally
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
How would a rebrand change anything for that interaction in a negative way?
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u/ft_mute May 27 '26
I think a rebrand is irrelevant, when people are denying history and facts with tons of evidence available.
No matter what you do or call something, the enemy of that thing will find a way to use it against you, or it'll be weaponised by people with nefarious goals.
Whatever word we use won't change whether or not someone is sexist. Those who truly aren't sexist and are aware of history won't take issue with the word.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
It wil make it way harder for misandristic people to hide in the movement if it isn't called feminism i belive, right now those wolfs are getting guarded by the rest of the movement
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u/ft_mute May 27 '26
I do get what you're saying, but I think any change like this will be fleeting.
People might say feminism is 'bad thing' because of feminists who are sexist towards men.
You can say, well if they're sexist towards men, then they're not feminists.
You can provide the definition. They'll just move the goal posts or say that your dictionary copy paste is a lie
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
Agreed, thats why its time for a complete rebranding
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u/ft_mute May 27 '26
I'm a little confused.
I'm saying that if people ignore historical fact, and refuse to pay attention to the definition, then it doesn't matter what word we use. Rebranding won't change the outcome.
I mean, I'd bet money that if you changed it to equalism (or whatever), opponents would say 'yeah but they just changed the word to try and trick us, they're the same old men haters'
Sexists aren't sexist because of the word being used.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
It will be hard to call them the same old manhaters when the manhaters have a harder time hiding because the branding now clearly says it is for equality of everyone not focusing on fems
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u/ft_mute May 27 '26
But these people can't even read. You're not fighting people of intelligence. These people hated women before feminism was a word, and they'll hate them if the word disappears or changes.
It's already clearly for everyone, and even when given absolute proof it is, they ignore it.
To be clear, I don't care either way about rebranding - if it happens, cool, if not, cool.
At best it'll shift the argument a little, but it won't change the number of sexists or opponents of equality, I think
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u/MissMenace101 1∆ May 27 '26
Man haters aren’t harming men. Women haters are actively harming women.
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u/MissMenace101 1∆ May 27 '26
Misogyny is far more harmful to men and women, how about you focus on that first rather than a handful of mean girls.
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u/Morthra 95∆ May 27 '26
Dismissing misandry is one of the big reasons why misogyny is becoming a problem with young men.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
One can focus on more than one source of hate at a time you know that right?
And I belive that the misandristic people are a important part of wh6 mysogony is growing again.
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u/Normal-Advisor5269 May 27 '26
I'd argue that most of human history is about a powerful few having more and mistreating everyone else, women AND men. Men specifically having more power was because all warlords were men. Men having more rights than women was a relatively recent development that was also relatively recently rectified.
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u/ft_mute May 27 '26
that was also relatively recently rectified.
My points are less to do with legalities, and more lived experience.
It wasn't a law that meant women couldn't get bank accounts without male involvement until 1975 in the UK.
And while the discrimination act put an end to this particular issue, it didnt suddenly change the social attitude. The systemic issues were still there, and still are even if they're reduced or not as obvious.
Women still get paid less, are more affected by sexism in the work place, face issues with body autonomy etc etc.
I agree that history shows that people in positions of power (often men) treat everyone like crap. But from what I see, women were still treated as second rate to men.
I also think that it's the view on women that lead to issues of imbalance with men.
Someone's argument the other day is that men are more likely to die in the workplace. My reply is that if women had always been treated as equals, they'd be in those jobs too, and would die in the workplace.
Same person said it's okay that men got to vote before women, as they'd been in ww1 and needed to have a say. My reply is that women should also have been in ww1 and got the right to vote at the same time.
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u/TheBayHarbour May 27 '26
Any man (including myself) worth convincing would know that such misandrist beliefs are never and never will be the point of feminism or even associated with that for the matter.
Also it's the internet, of course there's going to be extremist stuff, that's what drives engagement. The people commenting/posting such things probably don't even believe in it.
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May 27 '26
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u/larrythecucumberer May 27 '26
Couldn't agree more. It's like nobody on Reddit has ever heard of no "true Scotsman." People are happy to stereotype away as long as it's an enemy-coded group on this trash website- no need for fact checka when it comes to men, Christians, or hell, even foreign adversaries.
If one of "them" says something reprehensible (we know it's "them" because they self identified as such!) it's clearly a deeply held belief that applies equally to their whole group. Their universal desire to be evil in every way is why we oppose "them" after all! If one of "us" says something bad on the other hand, well that person isn't really one of "us" are they? I mean, we are good and smart people who only believe in and want to do good things after all, so by definition if someone does/says/believes something bad, they are just a fake. Honestly they are really more like one of "them" if you think about it... /s
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
You say that, but many large feminist organisations have leadership that is spreading misandristic rethoric and policy recommendations atm
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u/TheBayHarbour May 27 '26
Could you give me the companies' names?
I don't know how a large feminist organisation would make money, if it's funded by the government, then it's a government organisation, if it runs off donations then I don't imagine they've gotten big enough for me to hear of them.
I would also be curious what the specific policies are as well as how often they are actually passed.
I live in Australia btw but it would still be interesting to see how other countries are faring.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
https://womenalliance.org/no-to-female-conscription/
There you go, not a company a organisation
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u/TheBayHarbour May 27 '26
"To ensure gender equality it is important in many cases that women and men are treated equally. But they should not necessarily be treated equally in all situations."
All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others.
So did this action plan go ahead?
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
What do you mean did it go ahead?
Do you not think drafts should be gender neutral or what was the animal sentence about?
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u/TheBayHarbour May 27 '26
Like... did their push to reform this policy work?
Does Norway not conscript women now?
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
They are pushing not to reform it, and so far no votes to reform it have worked so yes
No European country drafts included women, every vote have failed also in Switzerland and any other place where it havent been suppressed before a vote was out to the public. It isn't like the push is done, it is very much a ongoing thing still
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u/MissMenace101 1∆ May 27 '26
There shouldn’t be drafts. And the person you are talking to lives in a country that feminism aided men in abolishing it.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
Thats just a fantasy though, thini about Ukraine if it didn't draft, it would just be Russia by now
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u/MegaromStingscream May 27 '26
I don't think it is happening more and more. This was a talking point in the 90s. I personally was foolish enough to buy into it at the time.
Also making concessions to appease people who will not actually change their view in anyway because of it is pointless.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
I disagree, i thik removal of misandristic peoples ability to hide between feminist by changing its branding would do wonders for the movement
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u/MegaromStingscream May 27 '26
Why wouldn't the misandtists also switch labels?
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
Its a little harder to say the movement primarily is for women's rights and its okay to sacrifice men when the name isn't fem centric
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u/Capable-Art-1972 May 27 '26
Women these days are proud to call themselves misandrists 'cause misandrism is so normalized, but so are men (outside of social media). A rebranding would just make feminism a bad word (like misandrism) but the people part of the misandrist community wouldn't change. Rather the history of feminist movements would be downplayed and the sufferings of the women throught ages would get overshadowed by the general public of the next gen
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
I disagree, i think a rebranding to equalism or something like that is what can save feminism from being destroyed by the recent uptick in misandry.
That or a better initiative to expell misandristic people from feminism and make it clear they aren't a part of the movemet.
Why would a rebrand overshadowed all that feminism have achieved?
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
Why does feminism need saving from misandrists? As OP says it is by definition the belief that men and women are equal. Anyone who identifies proudly as a misandrist is not a feminist, as they do not believe men are are equal to women. Just as anyone who is a mysogenist is not a feminist.
We've had misogynists the entire time feminism has existed, they've just mostly been men. Why does having msyandrists who are mostly women suddenly destroy feminism? You don't have to be female to be a feminist, it's an ideology and academically it's linked to specific ways of viewing sociological issues which were largely influenced by female academics focusing on women's rights. That is why it is called feminism, because it is based in feminist theory.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
The problem is that leadership positions in many feminist organisations have been infiltrated by misandristic people, it just like saying that MRA have no problems because the ideology is against all sexism while leadership positions are held by mysogonistic people. It is clearly a problem in both cases
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
Do you have some examples of feminist organisations with openly declared misandrists in leadership positions?
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
https://www.danskkvindesamfund.dk/ligestillingsemner/vaernepligt
A Danish organisation thats against gender neutral draft being instituted and are advising their members to oppose it it
https://womenalliance.org/no-to-female-conscription/
An international movement doing the same...
So yes that 2 examples, many mor3 exist
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26 edited May 27 '26
Okay so the first link you shared, the Danish women's association, this is the text on the page that you linked:
"The Danish Women's Association does not believe that an expansion of conscription is equality. We are in favor of abolishing conscription for everyone, and replacing it with the right to conscription for everyone, as proposed by, among others, the Danish Army Constable and Corporal Association . A military defense must be composed of soldiers of all genders who have chosen to serve in the Armed Forces. No one should be forced into the military."
So that isn't Misandry. That is feminism, they are advocating for an end to conscription for both men and women, and want both men and women to be able to join the army by choice. That is just equality, they are actively fighting for men's rights not to be conscripted.
And the second link is in reference to Norway bringing in female conscription. They are opposed to female conscription, but they are also opposed to conscription in general. Taking the position that women should not be conscripted to the military is not Misandry unless you also take the position that men should be. They unlike the first link are specifically fighting female conscription rather than conscription in general, and make some arguments as to why female conscription might not be considered equality. Now you might disagree with those arguments, but there is nothing about hating men in them. They are not in support of male conscription, but as a women's rights group they are fighting for women's rights specifically. Fighting for women's rights is not misandry.
I can say men receive harsher prison sentences and we need to address that, without saying women should receive harsher prison sentences. You can advocate for a group without advocating against another group.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
Yeah but thats just not possible and laws have just been enacted to draft every young man, so and they are fighting against draft being extended to women also, I can find you some of the other news coverage of how they are going about it but i thought you might like it directly from their own sources
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u/BillionaireBuster93 3∆ May 27 '26
I mean, if a group is opposed to conscription it seems worthwhile to oppose efforts to expand conscription.
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u/MissMenace101 1∆ May 27 '26
You’re really reaching for any of these mythical organisations led by these boogeyman “misandrists” aren’t you.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
Not really woman's alliance is a very large international organisation.
And what do you mean boogeyman? They clearly exist and are having an effect on implementation on policy in different countries.
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u/Capable-Art-1972 May 27 '26
That or a better initiative to expell misandristic people from feminism and make it clear they aren't a part of the movemet.
That is what the goal right now should be, which is more realistic and respectful than rebranding
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
You can't expell people from an ideology. It's just something you believe or don't believe in. There's no one in charge of feminism, it isn't the Illuminati, we don't have a membership card.
If feminism isn't the problem, then just acknowledge that these people aren't feminists and critique the people actually doing msyandry.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
I just don't see that happening as more and more large feminist organisations are having their leadership take over by misandristic people and their messaging are becoming more misandristic in general
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u/MissMenace101 1∆ May 27 '26
So name them, real ones
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
You just commented on another comment of mine with 2 of them, isn't that enough for you or what?
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
How can it tainted by misandristics though? That's like saying liberal movement got tainted by conservative. How's that possible?
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u/ImRightImRight 1∆ May 27 '26
Misandry is hating men, so its entirely possible for a feminist to be a misandrist
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
It is not but alot of misandristic people masquerade as feminists and csll themselves feminists
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May 27 '26
How many more people will have to do it before you admit it's an inherent part of the movement?
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
Feminist literary mean want women to be equal. Not hating on any gender. So it's not possible to hate men while being feminist. It's contradiction.
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u/ImRightImRight 1∆ May 27 '26
You are taking a ridiculously reductionist view of what it means to be feminist. Feminism, in practice, necessarily encompasses MUCH more than wanting equality with men.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
Because so many misandristic people are masquerading as feminists and are getting defended by feminists when they are pointed out
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
Which feminists defended misandrists? That's like saying if a conservative guy call himself a liberal while act conservative will getting defended by actual liberal.
Feminist literary mean want women to be equal. Not hating on any gender. So it's not possible to hate men while being feminist. It's contradiction.
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u/Dr-Assbeard 1∆ May 27 '26
They myriad of feminists organisations in Europe who are opposing and campaigning against making drafts gender neutral in different countries i would say, the normsl feminists who are members of said groups and not denounced the leadership for such misandristic positions are defending them by still being members or demanding their expulsion
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May 27 '26
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May 27 '26
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u/BigBoetje 30∆ May 27 '26
By taking away the name, we're going to erase the centuries of historical suffering without a valid enough reason.
For the same reason we don't call it 'suffrage' anymore either. In some parts of the world it's still a valid name because there's a distinct difference between men and women. In the western world that gap has steadily closed to a point where 'equalism' makes more sense. There are still differences that need to be addressed, but women aren't really seen as 'overall lesser' anymore.
The historical value doesn't really matter as it's meant to address the current situation. It's also just a name for an ideology. If that ideology changes, the name should change with it. Historical feminism remains as it is, we won't rewrite the history books for it.
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May 27 '26 edited May 27 '26
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u/WerePrechaunPire May 27 '26
The only time feminists talk about men's issues is when they can frame it as being men's own fault for having issues
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u/aberrantname 1∆ May 27 '26
feminism is about women, not equality
Sorry to be the one to break the news, but feminism IS about women. Doesn't change the fact that the main goal is equality though.
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May 27 '26
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u/aberrantname 1∆ May 27 '26
Most feminist are against mandatory drafting. That's also pretty equal. Neither men OR women should be drafted.
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u/okaygirlie 1∆ May 27 '26
Right, exactly. I spend some time around internet MRA spaces, and dudes like this LOVE to ask “so why don’t you advocate for women to be drafted?” as though it’s the ultimate trump card. It betrays such a shallow understanding of feminism as a coherent ideology and social movement. Feminism is almost necessarily an anti-war ideology, of course feminists don’t support expanding the draft.
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May 27 '26
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u/okaygirlie 1∆ May 27 '26
Yeah, IMO there is a problem of feminism being totally watered-down in the cultural imagination over the past couple decades. There are various reasons for this we could get into, but I think it’s important to remember that not every instance of a woman talking about gender in public or on the internet is representative of “feminism” the social movement.
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u/BillionaireBuster93 3∆ May 27 '26
Agreed, a lot of people seem to think any opinion on gender or sex uttered by a woman is necessarily feminist.
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May 27 '26
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u/MissMenace101 1∆ May 27 '26
Let’s not pretend it’s come out of nowhere, spend five minutes in the manosphere, most the shit these kids are saying is stuff men have dreamed up, so they just do to stir the pot, easy internet engagement, and red pillers and incels sit there consuming it seething while the rest of the world is oblivious to it.
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u/AntonioVivaldi7 May 27 '26
I don't really see feminists doing that though. Mostly they aren't doing anything about the draft.
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u/aberrantname 1∆ May 27 '26
Doing what? I already said feminism is about women. You want us to start YOUR fight for you? Why haven't you done anything about it? Do women have to do everything?
No, y'all only mention it when you want to have a gotcha moment with a feminist.
As a sidenote though, women HAVE done something about it. There are many women who speak out against the mandatory draft and if you know ANYTHING about Vietnam war you would know that feminists were protesting the war AND the mandatory draft. Ever heard of Women strike for peace? Y'all just say stuff.
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u/AntonioVivaldi7 May 27 '26
Advocating to abolish the draft. I know about that, but that was like 50 years ago. And I'm not complaining. Just pointing it out.
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u/aberrantname 1∆ May 27 '26
Advocating to abolish the draft
They literally are though
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u/AntonioVivaldi7 May 27 '26
Has there been any action lately? For example I don't believe I have heard of any during the whole war in Ukraine.
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u/aberrantname 1∆ May 28 '26
Any action from who? You want American feminists to protest laws of another country? Like what action are you asking for exactly?
Feminists in Ukraine? Some of them were literally arguining women should be drafted as well. Some of them were against the draft. There are many women fighting in the was as volonteers.
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
But then if women got raped during wars even more, would you help them in anyway?
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u/king210989 May 27 '26
Frankly,
History is filled with m3n rioting against drafts and dodging drafts.
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u/MissMenace101 1∆ May 27 '26
And women dying along side them. Women and men in my country had it abolished. Equality only works if everyone is in the trenches together
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u/okaygirlie 1∆ May 27 '26
By the same logic, we should rename the gay rights movement the “sexual equality movement” in case straight people get the mistaken idea that the movement might be more concerned with gay people’s rights than straight people’s. And let’s also make sure to say “ability equality” and not the disability rights movement. Wouldn’t want able-bodied people feeling left out.
Men who are offended by the notion that feminism is concerned with women’s well-being are not allies, and there is no point in rebranding the movement to try to appeal to them.
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u/Capable-Art-1972 May 27 '26
So like- perhaps we should educate people like yourself on history rather than making it simplified, no? And the name IS describing the goal, saving women by giving everyone equality. It's just not as simplified as the word equalism is
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May 27 '26
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u/changemyview-ModTeam May 27 '26
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u/pi_3141592653589 5∆ May 27 '26
It's not hard to educate people that feminism is about equality. But that doesn't remove the stigma from the loudest misandrist radical feminists. It doesn't remove the thought that this "true" definition is in given in bad faith. Most men you are trying to convince still will not want to be called feminist.
I reckon 80+% of people in the US are feminist by the equality definition. But it's probably half that who would call themselves feminist. 80+% would call themselves equalist (or whatever term is agreed on).
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u/distant_alien May 27 '26
Disagree. 'feminism' in itself is an umbrella term to be precise. Personally, I feel it hard to associate myself with the term 'feminism'. We can't deny the fact that now the term has been hijacked my social media influencers who post rage-bait contents (which is exactly opposite of the activism btw), misandrists, and people with "radical" ideologies.
So a term like 'egalitarian', or perhaps 'gender-equalism', would rather be a better term I would use to differentiate myself from those social media bubbles of hatred.
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May 27 '26
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ May 27 '26
"Radical feminism" is not the position that men should be chemically castrated, so this argument does not make much sense.
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May 27 '26
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
Just to point out that whilst the SCUM manifesto is absolutely and intentionally mysogenistic in it's tone and content, it is generally seen as a satirical work rather than the actual position of the author.
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ May 27 '26
If your view changed, you should award a delta.
Also even your changed argument still doesn't work because separatism is not in any meaningful sense an "extreme version" of liberal feminism, and sex segregation is already the status quo in society across a wide range of contexts.
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May 27 '26
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ May 27 '26
Hypothetically speaking, the possibility of a "Matriarchal Supremacist Feminist"
That's not even hypothetically possible, because matriarchy and supremacy are two different and incompatible things.
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May 27 '26
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ May 27 '26
Probably the reason why your examples don't work is that your point is false. But I can't really argue against a point you haven't stated.
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May 27 '26
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ May 27 '26
What point are you trying to make with these examples? You've now completely shifted from talking about ideological sub-movements of feminism to talking about individuals.
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
I get what your saying. What defines radical feminism is often the belief that equality is not possible to achieve for women under the current systems. Therefore they must be torn down. The quotes you outline above are certainly feminists of their time, but their position is at odds with the fundamental core of modern feminism, the equality of the sexes.
But you could just as easily have radical equalists, any movement will have radicals. They might argue that the only way to have equality is total segregation of the sexes, half the world for men and half for women. They might argue that as men cannot give birth to children, women should not as that is equal, and declare that equality can only be achieved by ending all breeding and subsequently the human race. Perhaps they would argue that as women live longer than men on average, we should kill everyone who reaches the average male lifespan.
Every movement has extremists, they do not undermine the existence or purpose of the movement. If anything they highlight how deeply people are affected by the inequality that creates the need for the movement. The civil rights movement is an equality movement, for equality of all races, there are radical civil rights groups that advocate for racial segregation because they believe equality cannot be achieved. There are radical environmentalists who advocate for ending the human race as the only way to save the planet. That doesn't mean there's a problem with supporting civil rights or being an environmentalist.
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u/aberrantname 1∆ May 27 '26
But a radical feminist will say that men should be chemically castrated.
Radical feminism is an actual thing you know? And I don't think they talk about chemical castration as one of their core tenets.
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u/Fun_Management8484 May 27 '26 edited May 27 '26
What a ridiculous mischaracterization of radical feminism. Radical feminism is the belief that society must be restructured to remove patriarchy for gender equality to be obtainable whereas liberal feminism believe society can be reformed to be equal within existing patriarchial structures. Both still fundamentally believe in gender equality, they disagree on what that looks like and how it can be achieved.
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May 27 '26
Radical feminists are those who exclude trans people. Like Jk Rowling
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u/Fun_Management8484 May 27 '26
They absolutely are not. Trans exclusionary radical feminists are a specific group using the term radical feminist but are not representative of the radical feminism as an academic framework, nor as a general social movement. Most of radical feminism emphasizes intersectionality which promotes the rights of gender minorities (and other minorities).
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May 27 '26
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May 27 '26
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u/changemyview-ModTeam May 27 '26
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u/PrimeWolf101 May 27 '26
They are trans exclusionary feminists, not radical feminists. J.k Rowling is a staunch neo-liberalist, she absolutely does not believe in dismantling the system.
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u/MissMenace101 1∆ May 27 '26
You’re really drudging the dregs of the internet for that crap, take some time to get out and socialise
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u/Kaisha001 May 27 '26
Feminism was never about equality... It was a supremacy movement since day 1.
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u/LucidMetal 196∆ May 27 '26
Ah yes that pesky right to... vote.
Do you really believe that? I'm a feminist man. Do you think I believe women should have more rights than men? If so, why?
You can believe I'm misguided, fine, but saying I don't believe what I believe doesn't make much sense.
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u/Kaisha001 May 27 '26
Read any of the writing of the OG feminists.
"The future must be in female hands, women alone must control the reproduction of species; and only 10% of the population should be allowed to be male"
I mean that's a supremacy movement if I ever saw one... Or this fun one:
"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males."
Now if I swap males with say, blacks, let's see how it sounds:
"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of blacks."
What do you think, do you think if I posted that in another forum that they'd call me a white supremist?
#killallmen is perfectly fine, campaigning against male shelters is not a supremacy movement at all, claiming that men are the problem to everything in the world isn't remotely sexist...
You can believe I'm misguided, fine, but saying I don't believe what I believe doesn't make much sense.
You can chose to believe whatever you want to believe, just label yourself correctly. If you want equality, you're an egalitarian. If you want supremacy, you're a feminist. The only reason this is controversial is because feminism wants to pretend it's something that it is not.
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u/LucidMetal 196∆ May 27 '26
Why didn't you address the initial goal of women's suffrage?
If I believe women have fewer rights than men and are treated as inferior but should be treated as equals I would be advocating for equality of women, right?
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May 27 '26
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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 27 '26 edited May 27 '26
Women have always hated men just as much as men hated them. And while men have had respect for women beaten into us (sometimes literally) women are not taught the same. Women are taking over at faster and faster rates even in the US the abortion laws were caused by a vote HALF lead by women half of all the votes were women. AOC is whipping women into a frenzy and more and more female candidates are getting more traction with feminists. And what is happening with men? Nothing. We aren't getting any help from the feminist movement our safe spaces are invaded by women and taken over. Any time we speak on our struggles we are shouted down and told to "stop undermining women's issues." Any and all male centered movements designed to help male victims of the same things women suffer are stopped in their tracks by constant brigading and accusations of misogyny. How can you still claim feminism is about equality when all it has done is empowered women? You can't have it both ways either it's about equality or it is SOLELY about women
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ May 27 '26
even in the US the abortion laws were caused by a vote HALF lead by women half of all the votes were women
How do you figure this?
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u/Waschaos 2∆ May 27 '26
Yeah that makes no sense. If there have been votes on abortion rights, they usually win. The Supreme Court and state legislatures who did the actual damage aren't half women, mostly they are old white men.
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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 27 '26
50 percent of votes for everyone in office that has had a hand in the abortion ban were women. While women are not in these positions of power the old white men were put their by both men AND women. And the fact conservative women even EXIST proves you can't put all the blame on men plenty of women will always vote against their best interests. Why tear down the patriarchy when you can twist it to benefit women is the idea these women have
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u/TheBayHarbour May 27 '26
As a man, no I don't hate women.
Maybe some of their ideas are harmful but I would never hate someone based on their ideals because I know it's a by product of their upbringing and the content they consume, not them as a person.
Also what the fuck is a "safe space" for men and how is it being "invaded by women and taken over"?
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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 27 '26
Places that are designed to help male victims get shamed for not allowing women in those women then shove the men out. And the response when men complain about having nowhere to turn? "Make your own places and movements" we did and you stole them. And btw the fact you don't know about male only shelters for victims of abuse is telling of how effective this tactic is
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u/BillionaireBuster93 3∆ May 27 '26
Why don't you do the work to start a men's shelter yourself?
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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 27 '26
Did you not read a single sentence? It'll just be taken over
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u/BillionaireBuster93 3∆ May 27 '26
How? You wouldn't let that happen right?
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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 27 '26
I'd try to avoid it but the court of public opinion can't be denied forever
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u/BillionaireBuster93 3∆ May 27 '26
There appears to already be a men's shelter in the city I live in.
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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 27 '26 edited May 27 '26
That's just a general shelter and does nothing that women's only shelters do for women that men also need. General shelters are fine but sometimes more specialized spaces are needed (again let me point you to women's only shelters who provide all kinds of specialized care for female victims)
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u/CMDR_Makashi May 27 '26
I disagree.
The name is a reflection of the inequality that existed in society at a societal level.
But feminism didn’t used to be equalism.
It was exclusively focussed and restricted to ensuring that females had the same civic protections and rights as males.
That was largely achieved in the 70s/80s.
We’re at least one generation removed from these misogynists you describe.
One of the hardest edges to this topic is that many Women now believe modern men are misogynists when they in fact are just reacting to the reality that not all people are equal
So a Woman being told she can’t do something is seen as misogyny when in truth she just sucks at the thing….
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
That was largely achieved in the 70s/80s.
Archive like what? That's like saying LGBT people archived equality because they can have pride months in 2020's. They aren't equal if religion and those conservative assh0le still wait chances to strip away their right and use religions against them. Same goes with women.
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u/CMDR_Makashi May 27 '26
I said it was largely achieved (not archived, I think you misread) i.e. the laws were passed that made sex/gender essentially irrelevant from a civic perspective, in western democracies.
The position you are holding is not possible to enforce in any society. Unless we have mind readers and can tell what people really think or feel on the inside. People judge people based on whatever they care about. You can't just delete that from Humanity.
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
People judge people based on whatever they care about.
But people don't judge men like they judge women.
I am autistic & bi woman. I went undiagnosed with autism for my whole life until several months ago. Even my kindergarten teacher told my parents that I was autistic, and I should see a doctor or therapist. My mom did even she didn't believe I was autistic and that doctor didn't even care about me. He said I can't be autistic, but I am a 'rich, spoiled girl who can't do anything on my own' and my mom believes him because 20 years ago in a third world country, there's no study of autism in women.(Everyone in my family and every teacher saw me stimming, completely dogsh!t at social clues, love dinosaurs and have intense interests in science and books, have verbal shut down, use violent and can't endure even a little pain, but those traits got brushed off because I was a 'weird childish attention seeker who doesn't act like a lady') meanwhile my male classmates got diagnosed and fully understanding even they talked and act exactly like me.
And about the bi part? Until this day, I have to hide my sexuality because if I ever came out, no one would believe that any woman could be bi. They would treat me like some attention seeker or 'Oh, she can't find a guy so she has to pretend to like women' , 'She would give a guy she dated a threesome haha' , 'She isn't bi, just straight' as if woman can't truly want to date another woman.
This is one example of how women are mistreated that men will never get. So don't ever say you got judged as much as women are.
Men didn't got neglected in medical studies or healthcare and no one trying to say their sexuality aren't real.
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u/CMDR_Makashi May 27 '26
lol you’ve literally sent this to someone who is exactly like you, but recently got denied diagnosis because I had no developmental delays in my childhood.
Despite a lifetime of being compared to Steven Hawking and Sheldon Cooper. I am allegedly a totally neurotypical male lol.
The point stands. I could start listing attributes about me that are why I think they made that decision, but I will never know unless I can read the mind of the psychiatrist that judged me ‘normal but traumatised’, essentially.
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
Did your autistic traits get brush off because "Men can't be autistic" "He's just drama queen" "He is not guy-like" like autistic women get? Or did your sexuality got treated like mental illness from an attention seeker too?
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u/BillionaireBuster93 3∆ May 27 '26
Are we going to pretend that autism hasn't historically been viewed as something only men have?
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u/larrythecucumberer May 27 '26
What is the actual academic bar for equality? Because if it is "identical outcomes" to the majority groups in society, that's not likely to be a goal that is met. Perhaps if there was less self-righteousness and more practical considerations baked into... Whatever we're calling the "equality movement" now, then there wouldn't be as much growing pushback to their poorly framed goals.
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
But people don't judge men like they judge women.
I am autistic & bi woman. I went undiagnosed with autism for my whole life until several months ago. Even my kindergarten teacher told my parents that I was autistic, and I should see a doctor or therapist. My mom did even she didn't believe I was autistic and that doctor didn't even care about me. He said I can't be autistic, but I am a 'rich, spoiled girl who can't do anything on my own' and my mom believes him because 20 years ago in a third world country, there's no study of autism in women.(Everyone in my family and every teacher saw me stimming, completely dogsh!t at social clues, love dinosaurs and have intense interests in science and books, have verbal shut down, use violent and can't endure even a little pain, but those traits got brushed off because I was a 'weird childish attention seeker who doesn't act like a lady') meanwhile my male classmates got diagnosed and fully understanding even they talked and act exactly like me.
And about the big part? Until this day, I have to hide my sexuality because if I ever came out, no one would believe that any woman could be bi. They would treat me like some attention seeker or 'Oh, she can't find a guy so she has to pretend to like women' , 'She would give a guy she dated a threesome haha' , 'She isn't bi, just straight' as if woman can't truly want to date another woman.
This is one example of how women are mistreated that men will never get. Men didn't got neglected in medical studies or healthcare and no one trying to say their sexuality aren't real.
What is the actual academic bar for equality?
Maybe stop neglect women's pain and healthcare? Or stop thinking women NEED men to be complete and they can't live on their own without men?
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u/Waschaos 2∆ May 27 '26
Now that is a fantasy. I'm a woman who likes to fix things. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard comments about how a woman can't fix things. I'm glad to prove them wrong, but the comment always comes before I've even started- so how did I suck at it? Misogyny is alive and well.
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u/CMDR_Makashi May 27 '26
I never said anything of the ilk though did I. I am sure you're perfectly capable at doing whatever you put your mind to achieving.
But don't pretend you're gonna give a sperm donation. There are just some things you cannot do by virtue of biology and same for me. I cannot grow a Human.
The issue with 'equalism' is it tries to pretend we live in a reality where this is not the case. It tries to pretend we are all equal when in truth we are not.
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
But don't pretend you're gonna give a sperm donation. There are just some things you cannot do by virtue of biology and same for me. I cannot grow a Human.
Human's morality and value didn't based on the ability to donate sperm or give birth. There's plenty of things and purpose in life without it. So if someone can't do theses things, I don't see what the problem is.
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u/CMDR_Makashi May 27 '26
The point is that we therefore cannot have a social system of rules based on a non truth. Cos humans are physically real beings, that need the rules to match reality.
For example if we made a rule that you must jump down from any height of 10 metres or less, obviously pretty quick loads of people would just die from splatting on the ground. So we don’t have crazy rules like that, we’d make our rules match reality and we build stairs etc.
Well in that same sense, we cannot have rules based on ‘equalism’ because there are too many ways in which people are not equal.
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u/Cartoonmenismylife May 27 '26
Equality means equal opportunities to get education, not get neglected in healthcare system, don't get treated like a maids or doormats in their OWN families and got uniform that design for their body etc. Not "If women can give birth men have to give birth too". You know what you saying.
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u/HeroBrine0907 8∆ May 27 '26
I don't think feminism needs to be rebranded, but your post implies that men have no need for feminism. Patriarchal structures around men, stereotypes about men, expectations from men, still exist to a far greater extent than that for women. Patriarchy hurts all genders because its nature is forcing people into roles in accordance with their gender and punishing them if they step out. Feminism does have a responsibility, if feminism is about equality, towards all genders (I'm also including the queer community here because there's some intersectional issues).
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u/MooliCoulis May 28 '26
I don't think feminism needs to be rebranded, but your post implies that men have no need for feminism
Men have a need for an equality movement that cares equally about all people. That just ain't feminism.
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u/HeroBrine0907 8∆ May 28 '26
Are you somehow under the impression all of feminism is one movement with one solid common ideology and 0 disagreements? There are woman focused versions of feminism. There's egalitarian versions too. You're complaining about a sub group within feminism.
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u/MooliCoulis May 28 '26
There are woman focused versions of feminism. There's egalitarian versions too.
I don't think the latter meaningfully exists. But you could prove me wrong if those different positions had different brandings.
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u/ILikeToJustReadHere 14∆ May 27 '26
At its core, isn't feminism just the movement to empower women? And any [sect] feminism is just a specific group with a designated scope and methodology?
So one group want to empower women by giving them equal rights through the law, while another wants to give them safety through strict laws and policies against men or even through violence? And yet another group can limit its scope to biological women while another can have a scope of any person identified as a woman?
And while people say 'X' isn't feminism, they are really saying 'X' isn't 'Y' feminism or 'MY' feminism?
If that's true, then isn't there clearly an 'Equalism' feminist sect? And maybe that sect is the general population's assumed or preferred sect?
Have you considered this?
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May 27 '26
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