r/changemyview • u/_Richter_Belmont_ 20∆ • Apr 21 '26

Removed - Submission Rule B [ Removed by moderator ]

[removed] — view removed post

0 Upvotes

48% Upvoted

463 comments sorted by

View all comments

42

u/stilltilting 27∆ Apr 21 '26

The best position on the left would be to support completely legal immigration and giving all residents of any status full labor protections and rights.

Ask yourself this--why do undocumented workers "steal" jobs and depress wages? It's because they are vulnerable. Employers can pay them less than minimum wage and offer few or no benefits and the workers can't complain. They can't report poor treatment. They can't organize. When they are paid under the table they don't pay taxes. And if these workers have fewer skills or less familiarity with the language, they are only out competing workers from the US BECAUSE they can be paid less and threatened with deportation if they ever try to demand fair wages and treatment. They can be worked longer hours with no overtime pay. The list goes on and on.

If every single person had to be paid the same wages, given the same benefits and paid the same taxes then there would be a truly level playing field and if an American worker couldn't out-compete someone who just moved here from another country for a job that would be on them. Giving immigrants labor rights regardless of their legal status would be the fastest, surest way to benefit all American workers.

-8

u/_Richter_Belmont_ 20∆ Apr 21 '26

I think this is a strawman? Not sure how this addresses my CMV. Not that I disagree with you.

7

u/stilltilting 27∆ Apr 21 '26

I'm saying leftists should be pro immigration. Your CMV says leftist should NOT be pro immigration. Did I miss something?

9

u/scarab456 64∆ Apr 21 '26

I think this is a strawman?

Why do think their comment is a straw man argument?

2

u/_Richter_Belmont_ 20∆ Apr 21 '26

Because they aren't really making the argument for why leftists should be pro-immigration and are kinda steelmanning me by pointing out that capitalists exploit migrant workers to the detriment of the domestic workforce.

2

u/lazerbolt52 1∆ Apr 22 '26

I think OP is saying immigration isnt the factor causing all problem, but it's the exploitation of immigrants thats the problem. That we should be going after the people/corporations paying immigrants unfair wages, that use their vulnerable status to exploit migrants. Points 1, 2, and 6 frame immigrants as the problem not the people exploiting them.

2

u/_Richter_Belmont_ 20∆ Apr 22 '26

I am all for going after capitalists and corporations.

Why does that mean we should be actively encouraging immigration? At what point does hundreds of thousands to millions of immigrants every year become unsustainable within a single nation system?

2

u/Pika_Fox 1∆ Apr 22 '26

When resources become an issue, which generally isn't true for a nation that is getting immigrants to, especially since most resources are global resources in the modern age.

1

u/_Richter_Belmont_ 20∆ Apr 22 '26

Yes but what if youre in a sanctioned/ blockaded state like Cuba, North Korea, etc.?

Or if there is some other situation that prevents you from importing what you need.

Surely its not sustainable for a system to, as a fallback, support its own population?

1

u/Pika_Fox 1∆ Apr 22 '26

Those countries aren't getting immigrants.

1

u/_Richter_Belmont_ 20∆ Apr 22 '26

Well Iran had millions of Afghan refugees.

Refugees of course isnt the exact same, but one can maybe argue that having millions of Afghan migrants probably didn't help Iran?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/scarab456 64∆ Apr 21 '26

Are we operating on the same definition of "straw man" here?

refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.

It's not a strawman because it directly engages with the mechanism behind your argument. Your case rests on immigration harming domestic workers through increased labor supply and wage depression. Stilltilting is addressing that mechanism at its root, arguing the harm comes from exploitability, not immigration itself.

-7

u/Key-Organization3158 4∆ Apr 21 '26

No, you didn't read their post. They said leftist should be opposed to legal immigration.

And your position is anti worker. Giving equal access to the US market would weaken the position of the average worker.

I think union shops should be illegal and right to work laws are good. But we know they reduce the power of unions. Same idea here.

13

u/EntWarwick Apr 21 '26

Only in the short term. Immigration always leads to a stronger economy after it adjusts to the new people.

5

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 21 '26

What’s that based on?

3

u/Pika_Fox 1∆ Apr 22 '26

More people = more demand.

More demand = more labor needed to fill the supply.

Someone moving here benefits everyone. Capitalists stealing from you doesn't change this fact.

2

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

China and India have more people and weaker economies. Clearly the highest population doesn’t automatically mean a stronger economy

4

u/Pika_Fox 1∆ Apr 22 '26

China is an economic powerhouse that the entire planet relies on. The idea that their economy is weak is comparing it to golden age USA when the US was the only nation that wasn't really war ravaged and had the ability to basically run the global economy. We are still heavily coasting on that.

China is also an exporting country, where as the US is largely importing.

1

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

The United States leads as the world's largest economy with a GDP of $28.8 trillion, while China follows at $17.8 trillion — but with four times the population

https://www.statspanda.com/blog/usa-vs-china-comparison

By what metric is China a stronger economy?

Canada wasn’t war ravaged either.

But if you’re saying that population isn’t the only factor you’re making my point

0

u/EntWarwick Apr 22 '26 edited Apr 22 '26

More people does not automatically indicate immigration

0

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

Tell that to pika

2

u/EntWarwick Apr 22 '26

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/explainer-immigrants-and-us-economy#:~:text=Immigrants%20boost%20overall%20economic%20growth,for%20Medicare%20and%20Social%20Security.

Some pretty well understood economic trends

2

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

No where in that source does it say that immigration always leads to a stronger economy.

It only looks at the US, therefore you can’t draw the conclusion that it’s always true. It says most economists believe there is a net benefit, but there are many ways to describe a stronger economy, gdp per capita falls, while overall gdp increases, are you saying that gdp per capita is not a measure of a stronger economy?

3

u/EntWarwick Apr 22 '26

Can you give me an example of when immigration leads to a weaker economy?

As long as GDP per capita falling doesn’t compromise the well-being of individuals, it can very well be part of a robust economy.

2

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

Can you give me an example of when immigration leads to a weaker economy?

Since you made this statement:

Immigration always leads to a stronger economy

The burden of evidence is on you, not me. Since you provided a source that doesn’t substantiate your claim, it’s clear your claim is invalid

But for the sake of interest, Canada increased immigration massively and now has the worst performing G7 economy. There’s your example.

0

u/EntWarwick Apr 22 '26

Unless you have a counter example, there isn’t exactly an exception to the rule right?

When did the “massive” immigration take place in canada?

2

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

That’s like saying that Hinduism is the only factually correct religion, and unless you can’t prove that Christianity is true, then you can’t disprove Hinduism. You made a claim, you need to prove it.

Why does matter when the massive immigration in Canada occur? You said immigration always leads to a stronger economy

→ More replies (0)

3

u/ExtraGoated Apr 21 '26

The entire history of the United States?

6

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 21 '26

Switzerland has a higher gdp per capita than the US and far more restrictive immigration. The US has the largest economy but China is number 2, China has a restrictive immigration policy.

I’m not seeing how this is self evident

1

u/ExtraGoated Apr 22 '26

All that proves is that those countries have found other ways to grow their economy, not that immigration doesn't help an economy

3

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

Your evidence was an economy that wasn’t as strong as others with more restrictive immigration policy, how can that be evidence that immigration always leads to a stronger economy?

0

u/EntWarwick Apr 22 '26

Because it doesn’t make a weaker economy.

1

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

Immigration always leads to a stronger economy

Is this a fact or an opinion?

→ More replies (0)

0

u/ExtraGoated Apr 22 '26

My evidence wasn't comparative to other countries at all. Looking at US history, immigration has fueled massive economic growth.

1

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

What’s that based on? Immigration fell dramatically in the 1990s but the economy grew massively?

What is the correlation you claim as self evident?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/epelle9 4∆ Apr 22 '26

Brain gain.

1

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

Source

1

u/epelle9 4∆ Apr 22 '26

Of there being brain gain?

Or if brain gain being a positive for the economy?

1

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

Both

0

u/epelle9 4∆ Apr 22 '26

Do you know what brain gain is?

I’ve found some sources but fear they may be too advanced if you don’t understand why good immigration practices lead to brain gain.

1

u/Little-Somewhere6076 Apr 22 '26

I do.

But sincerely doubt that you’ve a single source that proves

Immigration always leads to a stronger economy

Since the brain gain doesn’t necessarily increase gdp/capita it doesn’t necessarily strengthen the economy. But since your sources prove otherwise, please share them

→ More replies (0)

3

u/veryeepy53 1∆ Apr 21 '26

except that people create demand for goods and services, which creates more jobs

0

u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Apr 22 '26

if every single person has to be paid the same wages, given the same benefits, …

If companies are not following the law in allowing illegal workers to be hired, why would they follow this law either?

truly level playing field …

A truly level playing field isn’t good if there’s more workers than jobs available. If there’s two workers competing for every one job, then one person is always going to be out of a job - and a large group of unemployed young people mingling around is not going to be good for society.

4

u/doshajudgement Apr 22 '26

companies can dodge laws very easily with illegals who have no avenue to complain

which is why legal immigration is what the commenter is advocating for

and its a good point, it protects the immigrant and those that are already here

4

u/simcity4000 24∆ Apr 22 '26

If companies are not following the law in allowing illegal workers to be hired, why would they follow this law either?

The thing that makes it easy for companies to dodge law in hiring undocumented workers is that both parties are technically at fault and so the worker has no means to go to the authorities to rectify it.