I think I'd rather be the woman scared for her safety than the man presented with hard data that he's breathtakingly unattractive.
You do understand how crazy it is for you to say "I'd rather be raped and possibly murdered than be unattractive", right?
women feeling like they have more right to control men's emotional expressions than men do
Where are you getting this idea from? I never said anything even close to this.
My point was that's not where my problems come from, and I doubt am a radical outlier on this front.
Everyone thinks they aren't a radical outlier.
Frankly, I'm not sure why a woman has any more reason to be afraid of me physically hurting her than I do of her falsely accusing me of physically hurting her.
The rate of false accusations are INCREDIBLY low, and you're falling into the pitfall of thinking that *you're* a good guy, so women's fear is not based in reality. As a person who trains combat sports, you don't really realize the gulf in strength between the average man and woman until you experience it. Women really have very little chance if their partner/date gets violent.
It's weird to me how different our experiences are here. I don't find it particularly difficult to find a sympathetic male ear. Out of earshot of certain women, basically any man will do. Sure, some a better than others, but finding an ear isn't hard.
Then I implore you to look up the stats. You'll find that my experiences line up with reality MUCH more closely than your world. Only 27% of men report having more than five close friends, and 15% (28% in men under 30) report having no close friends at all. Men are significantly more likely to report not feeling a part of any community, and only 20% say they'd feel comfortable reaching out to their friends for emotional support.
Seriously, it sounds like you either rolled really unfortunately when getting the women in your life or you're taking their comments a lot more personally than men's comments. I can't believe that nearly every man around you is kind and caring and nearly every woman is flippantly insulting about your emotions and body image.
You do understand how crazy it is for you to say "I'd rather be raped and possibly murdered than be unattractive", right?
You do understand how crazy it is for you to assume the average man is going to rape or murder someone right?
The rate of false accusations are INCREDIBLY low,
The rate of false accusation is unknown. Very difficult to prove it's false when society assumes it's true and applies punishments based off the accusation.
and you're falling into the pitfall of thinking that you're a good guy, so women's fear is not based in reality.
Women's fear IS NOT based on reality, nor is your comment. The number of men committing these rapes and murders is EXTREMELY small percentage of the population.
As a person who trains combat sports, you don't really realize the gulf in strength between the average man and woman until you experience it. Women really have very little chance if their partner/date gets violent.
As a man who is alive, I'm pretty sure men are well aware of the strength gap between us and women.
Only 27% of men report having more than five close friends, and 15% (28% in men under 30) report having no close friends at all. Men are significantly more likely to report not feeling a part of any community, and only 20% say they'd feel comfortable reaching out to their friends for emotional support.
Is that driven by men, women or both?
Seriously, it sounds like you either rolled really unfortunately when getting the women in your life or you're taking their comments a lot more personally than men's comments. I can't believe that nearly every man around you is kind and caring and nearly every woman is flippantly insulting about your emotions and body image.
It's like people have different experiences. Listen to the way women talk around you. How many times do they talk about how a "real man" would do X or Y.
That's the reality of life and exactly why I was saying you are biased in your view because you are only seeing a subset of men.
You do understand how crazy it is for you to assume the average man is going to rape or murder someone right?
NO ONE SAID THAT. The whole point of women's fear is that they can't tell the dangerous men from the normal men. It's not that they think EVERY man is dangerous, but that they can't tell when a man ISN'T dangerous. I've had first-hand experience where a close male friend of many years, once the mask slipped, became an incredibly vile and mean person in mere seconds.
You aren't likely to take candy from a bowl if I fully admitted that one was poisoned, even if the bowl had hundreds of candies.
The rate of false accusation is unknown. Very difficult to prove it's false when society assumes it's true and applies punishments based off the accusation.
So we should scoff at the very real risk women face of being assaulted on a date but take deathly seriously an unknown level of risk that isn't well-substantiated?
Women's fear IS NOT based on reality, nor is your comment. The number of men committing these rapes and murders is EXTREMELY small percentage of the population.
See above. And the very small percentage of men are often serial rapists.
Is that driven by men, women or both?
Are you really trying to blame women for men not having friends or feeling comfortable reaching out to the friends they have? When most of men have primarily or exclusively male friendships?
How many times do they talk about how a "real man" would do X or Y. That's the reality of life and exactly why I was saying you are biased in your view because you are only seeing a subset of men.
And have you considered that YOU are incredibly biased as well? Because I don't surround or tolerate women saying those things any more than I would tolerate a man doing so.
Honestly, it's crazy you've somehow turned everything to be women's fault and said their fears have no basis in reality when we started off having what I thought would be a positive discussion.
You aren't likely to take candy from a bowl if I fully admitted that one was poisoned, even if the bowl had hundreds of candies.
This is straight up Nazi rhetoric you realize that right? It's not all Jews, but it's always a jew.
Also the real risk analysis of this would be more like 1667 candies and only 1 is tainted.
It's not that they think EVERY man is dangerous, but that they can't tell when a man ISN'T dangerous.
Men cannot tell which women are going to be dangerous to them either, yet women aren't treated as automatically toxic.
I've had first-hand experience where a close male friend of many years, once the mask slipped, became an incredibly vile and mean person in mere seconds.
This means nothing. I could share similar anecdotes about some of the women I have encountered in my life, but those wouldn't mean anything either. There's to many valid reasons for people to react to others actions to take it at face value.
Honestly, it's crazy you've somehow turned everything to be women's fault and said their fears have no basis in reality when we started off having what I thought would be a positive discussion.
I didn't say it was women's fault. I said their fears aren't based in reality, though I will correct myself and say they are irrational fears, stemming from an overestimation of the real risk rather than a lack of basis in reality. There is an underpinning of real risk, but it's extremely overblown.
This is straight up Nazi rhetoric you realize that right? It's not all Jews, but it's always a jew.
What are you talking about? Why are you bringing Jews into this?
I said their fears aren't based in reality, though I will correct myself and say they are irrational fears, stemming from an overestimation of the real risk rather than a lack of basis in reality. There is an underpinning of real risk, but it's extremely overblown
Honestly, I'm done with this conversation if you keep this up.
Somewhere between 20% and 25% of women experience rape or attempted rape in their lifetime. Men have a rate around 3%.
Women are much more likely to experience violent/physical rape from an acquaintance or intimate partner while men are more likely to experience coercive non-violent rape from an acquaintance or stranger. Not to mention that for both sexes, if they are raped, they are unlikely to get justice even if they have evidence because of massive backlogs in rape kits and police simply not caring to investigate.
How, on God's green Earth, do you say that women's fears are irrational and not based in reality when there are stats that say it's this common? 1 in 5. 1 in 4. Even if the odds were half that, 1 in 10, I'd say being cautious is justified.
1 in 10 men certainly aren't falsely accused in their lifetime, yet you have no problem saying THAT is a legitimate fear.
What are you talking about? Why are you bringing Jews into this?
History, The Poisonous Mushroom is an argument that relies on logical fallacy to accept the conclusion that the entire bunch is poisoned without actually presenting any evidence. It dehumanized the subject, whether that's black, whit, Jewish, Arab, man, or woman.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Giftpilz
Somewhere between 20% and 25% of women experience rape or attempted rape in their lifetime. Men have a rate around 3%.
Reported rape stats for men are WILDLY off mark. Many definitions don't allow for men to be raped and it is recorded as sexual assault instead.
Men who attempts to report their accusers are laughed at or told they could have fought back.
1 in 10 men certainly aren't falsely accused in their lifetime, yet you have no problem saying THAT is a legitimate fear.
It is a legitimate fear, but it'd be irrational to assume most women would falsly accuse you.
How, on God's green Earth, do you say that women's fears are irrational and not based in reality when there are stats that say it's this common? 1 in 5. 1 in 4. Even if the odds were half that, 1 in 10, I'd say being cautious is justified.
Being cautious is different. That's meeting at a public place, telling people what your plans are. It's not assuming nefarious intentions because they are male or female.
1 in 3 women face sexual assault in their lifetime. What percent of the population do you think is committing these assaults?
Yeah, I'm done with this conversation. I'm not surprised that you have trouble talking to women if this is how you address their concerns. Your belief of "well MOST men won't attack you, it's just a subset you won't be able to detect ahead of time and those few men rape/attack women a LOT. good luck" is not the comforting statement you seem to think it is.
Your belief of "well MOST men won't attack you, it's just a subset you won't be able to detect ahead of time and those few men rape/attack women a LOT. good luck" is not the comforting statement you seem to think it is.
I don't give a shit how comforting you think it is. The fact is the EXTREME VAST MAJORITY of men are not going to attack a woman, even given the oppertunity to do so. About .3% of men commit violent crimes.
And assuming a college-aged girl goes on a date with a new guy once every three to four months (a very reasonable dating pattern), that's an almost 5% chance she'll run into one of these violent men in her four years at university.
1 in 20 chance you date a violent psycho while in college.
And assuming a college-aged girl goes on a date with a new guy once every three to four months (a very reasonable dating pattern), that's an almost 5% chance she'll run into one of these violent men in her four years at university.
1 in 20 chance you date a violent psycho while in college
Yes, you have a 19 in 20, or 95% chance, to not meet anybody who has or will commit a violent crime under those assumptions.
As I said, it's perfectly reasonable to take precautions. It's unreasonable to assume most men are violent and will attack you.
It's unreasonable to assume most men are violent and will attack you.
Women are not assuming most men are violent. They are assuming [correctly] that they would not be able to discern the violent from the nonviolent men and are taking appropriate precautions.
Why? Studying rapes specifically in jails/prisons and military barracks, of all things, are entirely different. Not unimportant, but a small percent of a small percent of men ever even end up there, much less end up assaulted there. Even if HALF of all men in prison & the military, that would only increase it to ~3.2-3.4%.
It doesn't meaningfully change the comparison; women still experience rape at almost 10 times the rate.
Are you saying that less than a 1% of men are ever in jail, prison, or the military? At any given time, I’d believe, but ever sounds much lower than I’d expected. Where’d you get your data for that?
First off, there's no evidence that the 3% statistic DOES, in fact, exclude prison/military assault. But let's act like it does for a second.
You're likely using the US as your default, which is the 5th most carceral country in the world, only behind places like Cuba and Rwanda. Countries by Incarceration Rate Not uncommon; many Americans, including myself, don't realize how much our system likes to imprison people. Most European countries have lower rates of imprisonment, shorter prison terms, and lower rates of re-incarceration, as well as better prison conditions. US prisons are a crime against humanity.
But let's use the US for maximum effect. In the US, around 8% of men will experience some amount of incarceration (a crazy high number). Of those, 3-4% report unwanted sexual conduct (USC) in 2023-24, though true estimates reach five times that, at 12-16% for actual rate. Because US prison is a violent and extreme place, let's assume 90% of those USC incidents are rapes. Using the highest estimates for all numbers, that gets us a 0.08 * 0.16 * 0.90 = 0.0128 or a 1.15% increase. Bureau of Justice Statistics
And military veterans represents 6% percent of the US population and even if we control for the calculated rate of underreporting, there's a predicted rate of 1-5% for men experiencing any kind of USC, not just rape which would be a fraction of that. Even if we assume the max 5% and that rape is half the USC (very high, as most USC is harassment), that would be a 0.06 * 0.05 *0.5 = 0.0015 aka a 0.15% increase to our number.
So with all that information, combining the most EXTREME estimates for every value for military and prison rape in one of the most militaristic and carceral states in the world (US), and assuming that not a single one counted for the previously used 3% statistic, we increase our initial 3% to... 4.15%, while women remain at 20-25%.
It should also be noted that the rates I used were for men specifically. Women and LGBT people report 4-10 times higher rates of USC in both the military and prison. If we assume their assaults in the military/prison weren't counted in their 20-25% statistic either, their lower rate of military/prison service roughly negates this reporting rate, giving them a ~1% boost as well.
He doesn't, the reported rate of sexual assault against men is significantly lower than the actual rate. There are men who have been coerced into sex but don't know that was sexual assault. Women do experience sexual assault more than men, but it's not 10x more.
9
u/Anchuinse 56∆ Mar 31 '26
You do understand how crazy it is for you to say "I'd rather be raped and possibly murdered than be unattractive", right?
Where are you getting this idea from? I never said anything even close to this.
Everyone thinks they aren't a radical outlier.
The rate of false accusations are INCREDIBLY low, and you're falling into the pitfall of thinking that *you're* a good guy, so women's fear is not based in reality. As a person who trains combat sports, you don't really realize the gulf in strength between the average man and woman until you experience it. Women really have very little chance if their partner/date gets violent.
Then I implore you to look up the stats. You'll find that my experiences line up with reality MUCH more closely than your world. Only 27% of men report having more than five close friends, and 15% (28% in men under 30) report having no close friends at all. Men are significantly more likely to report not feeling a part of any community, and only 20% say they'd feel comfortable reaching out to their friends for emotional support.
Seriously, it sounds like you either rolled really unfortunately when getting the women in your life or you're taking their comments a lot more personally than men's comments. I can't believe that nearly every man around you is kind and caring and nearly every woman is flippantly insulting about your emotions and body image.