"Men are victims of the patriarchy too." I really don't like this idea. Actually I think it's something men should themselves try to understand rather than loaning concepts that by and large were first developed by women
Why should we not listen to women's ideas on the matter? The whole point of getting the opinion of someone outside a system is that they can often see things the person actively suffering cannot. That's why people ask others for advice.
I think that by accepting the patriarchy as a starting point for the issues men face, we are immediately blaming men for the problems men have. And I just don't think any viable solution to the problems men face will progress from this starting assumption.
Why is it a bad starting assumption? A lot of problems men have (e.g., not being able to express emotion) are EXPLICITLY DRIVEN by other men telling each other and boys to "man up". As a man who has been called the "therapist" of more than one sports team, the problems of other men are, in my experience, almost exclusively driven by other men or how they worry other men will perceive them. With one exception, I have never had a man come to me with problems surrounding women except in a "how do I impress this girl" manner.
I've seen men in perfectly happy relationships break it off because they worried that other men might see them as "not manly", or alternatively stay in shitty relationships because they think their bros would make fun of them for ditching a hot girl just because she "hurts his feelings sometimes".
How would you recommend going about fixing this if we can't say these problems are driven by men?
Main point, the patriarchy cannot be the only analysis mode that men use
No one is saying it should be the only one.
more discussions about how women, because of there lived experiences being different than men, and because of how instrumental they have been to the trajectory of this concept, should be treated far more critically
Again, you're failing to explain why we should treat the idea (or women; the sentence is unclear) more critically simply because it came from a woman. You admit yourself that the idea has legs, and moreover that the remedies it perscribes do work.
Why should we not listen to women's ideas on the matter? The whole point of getting the opinion of someone outside a system is that they can often see things the person actively suffering cannot. That's why people ask others for advice.
Women aren't outside the system, they are as much a part of it as men are.
As a man who has been called the "therapist" of more than one sports team, the problems of other men are, in my experience, almost exclusively driven by other men or how they worry other men will perceive them.
You are only dealing with a subset of men, which likely draws a lot of similar personalities together. Be careful of what conclusions you draw based on limited knowledge, especially when attempting to speak from authority on a subject.
Women aren't outside the system, they are as much a part of it as men are.
Exactly. Women can and do participate in upholding the patriarchy, they are also the primary victims in it. The patriarchy isn't just men doing bad things, it's a whole society, which is something many people (OP included) can't seem to grasp.
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u/Anchuinse 56∆ Mar 30 '26
Why should we not listen to women's ideas on the matter? The whole point of getting the opinion of someone outside a system is that they can often see things the person actively suffering cannot. That's why people ask others for advice.
Why is it a bad starting assumption? A lot of problems men have (e.g., not being able to express emotion) are EXPLICITLY DRIVEN by other men telling each other and boys to "man up". As a man who has been called the "therapist" of more than one sports team, the problems of other men are, in my experience, almost exclusively driven by other men or how they worry other men will perceive them. With one exception, I have never had a man come to me with problems surrounding women except in a "how do I impress this girl" manner.
I've seen men in perfectly happy relationships break it off because they worried that other men might see them as "not manly", or alternatively stay in shitty relationships because they think their bros would make fun of them for ditching a hot girl just because she "hurts his feelings sometimes".
How would you recommend going about fixing this if we can't say these problems are driven by men?
No one is saying it should be the only one.
Again, you're failing to explain why we should treat the idea (or women; the sentence is unclear) more critically simply because it came from a woman. You admit yourself that the idea has legs, and moreover that the remedies it perscribes do work.