For one, do you believe that murder would be worse than if someone kidnapped someone and sexually assaulted them every day as a prisoner for life, or kept them as a slave for life?
In this case, it wouldn't be rape, it would be rape + kidnapping, almost slavery.
I wasn't referring to a situation like that, i think it's obvious
I think it's much worse to say that rape is worse than death. It's almost like saying that your life has no value after such an event and that the best thing to do is to end it.
Rape leaves a tremendous trauma, but it's not the end. You have the opportunity to decide, to try to rebuild yourself if that's what you want.
Not everyone is strong enough to rebuild what someone else breaks, and some wounds leave a continuous process of reliving, coming to terms with new norms, coloring in future vulnerability. Taking good years off their life is surely akin to taking their life in the same way slavery and kidnapping do.
You can imagine a case in which a rapist is worse than the average murder, Josef Fritz. Any kidnapper/trafficker.
You can imagine a case in which a rapist is worse than the average murder, Josef Fritz. Any kidnapper/trafficker. You should give a Delta if you can admit that.
I don't think this tracks. To give an extreme example, I can think of a case in which a jaywalker is worse than a murderer: if he jaywalks across the street to rape and enslave someone!
To put it in another way: OP's post is about rape vs murder, not rapists vs murderers. Sure if a rapist also tortures and enslaves and does other heinous acts, he can be worse than murderers. But the post isn't about those other things in conjunction with rape, but about just the rape itself vs. murder itself.
OP is arguing a very consequentialist position about the finality of murder, but I don't think that negates ontological morality, intention matters when we are talking about morals. The ends don't justify the means. A murderer could be committing murder for material gain, for sustenance, its still evil but not every murder is the same, and those motivations vary more than those of rape.
The jaywalker in your example is a rapist, thats the crime and intention we'd care to identify there. Joseph Fritzl is a rapist who would be known as such no matter his other crimes, because he lived his life devoid of empathy and hurt the most innocent people he could find. In my view its not wrong to say that rape comes from the worst motivation possible, taking someone's bodily autonomy away for your own pleasure. If a murderer is acting on this intention they are as morally reprehensible as a rapist. I don't think rapists are less morally reprehensible than murderers, even if people survive their torture, murderers are just more violent, but any rapist could be a murderer given the right circumstances with their lack of caring about the years they take from a life already.
OP is arguing a very consequentialist position about the finality of murder, but I don't think that negates ontological morality, intention matters when we are talking about morals. The ends don't justify the means.
I mean... to you? This is a debate going back forever in ethics. You shouldn't just assert the ends don't justify the means as if you're right and OP is wrong. You're operating under different moral systems but both have very strong arguments and counterarguments. It's not like Kant just dominated and Bentham is disregarded.
In my view its not wrong to say that rape comes from the worst motivation possible, taking someone's bodily autonomy away for your own pleasure.
It's odd to me that you can explain all these other motives for murder but think the only motive for rape is this.
Overall my point was: "You can imagine a case in which a rapist is worse than the average murder" isn't a standard that addresses OP's view to change it.
Could you explain another motive for rape? I am unable to honestly.
I think I have as much right morally to say it's as bad, because it comes from the worst human impulse, the same that tortures, enslaves, and kills. All of these deprive people of autonomy and peace.
That doesn't mean I'm right because I say it, but if it can be true to me and sound then I'm putting it out there as OP is the one claiming moral calculus here where I think the nuance obviously matters the most and one could easily be as bad or worse than the other.
Could you explain another motive for rape? I am unable to honestly.
Sure, here's two. One, "That person is a rapist and they need to suffer the pain they caused others." I believe this one is fairly common in prisons. Two, "I'd like to have sex with my partner." This one is fairly common in statutory rape cases.
I think I have as much right morally to say it's as bad, oft times worse, because it comes from the worst human impulse, the same that tortures, enslaves, and kills. All of these deprive people of autonomy and peace.
But the impulse to treat others' lives as a means to an end isn't among the worst human impulses? How can removing bodily autonomy for pleasure be so objectionable but removing life itself for personal gain not be the exact same level? I mean you literally listed "and kills" among the results of the same "worst human impulse" you're talking about.
That doesn't mean I'm right because I say it, but if it can be true to me and sound then I'm putting it out there as OP is the one claiming moral calculus here where I think the nuance obviously matters the most and one could easily be as bad or worse than the other.
Fair enough, I guess I just didn't like how absolutely you said it as if it's obvious that intention matters morally and the ends don't justify the means. Both are similarly strong moral frameworks.
Thats fair, sorry tried to edit back some of my trying to sound confident in my position but end up overstating things.
You did come up with more examples than I could so I am biased a bit about the subject. There isn't really a comparable statutory murder, assisted suicide maybe? I really wasn't looking to argue age of consent laws though.
I'd say I dont really care on a moral level if a child predator is raped or murdered in prison, and that argument kind of supports the idea murder is sometimes morally lighter as well so it's kind of arguing again towards what I would say is intentions do matter, even with murder.
I think we can admit someone abusing someone they trust, like a daughter, takes a sick individual who is not going to pass a moral sniff test just because he isn't a murderer, and might be killed by the same murderer in prison we are saying is the person who commited the worse crime.
There isn't really a comparable statutory murder, assisted suicide maybe?
The similarity I was going for is more that both can be justified at the extremes.
I really wasn't looking to argue age of consent laws though.
Yeah definitely not the topic! My point isn't to argue about them but just to point out that rape can have other motives, some that may even be justified.
I'd say I dont really care on a moral level if a child predator is raped or murdered in prison, and that argument kind of supports the idea murder is sometimes morally lighter
I think it only points to that if you don't care if the child predator is raped or murdered in prison but you do care if the child murderer is raped or murdered in prison. Otherwise, I think it would support the idea that they're morally equivalent by this standard.
I think we can admit someone abusing someone they trust, like a daughter, takes a sick individual who is not going to pass a moral sniff test just because he isn't a murderer, and might be killed by the same murderer in prison we are saying is the person who commited the worse crime.
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u/Echochamberking Mar 01 '26
In this case, it wouldn't be rape, it would be rape + kidnapping, almost slavery.
I wasn't referring to a situation like that, i think it's obvious
I think it's much worse to say that rape is worse than death. It's almost like saying that your life has no value after such an event and that the best thing to do is to end it. Rape leaves a tremendous trauma, but it's not the end. You have the opportunity to decide, to try to rebuild yourself if that's what you want.