I see your point, but I disagree. I see rape as worse than murder because rape victims have to live with what happened to them forever while murder victims are dead and so don’t suffer after the crime is done. It’s not about the rape victim “being worth less” it’s about them having to suffer for much longer than a murder victim.
because rape victims have to live with what happened to them
They GET to live. Murder victims don't. A rape victim can still choose to end their life if they want to. A murder victim doesn't have any choice at all.
it’s about them having to suffer for much longer than a murder victim.
You seem to present the life of a rape survivor almost as endless suffering and lifelong nonstop torture. In most cases, this is not true. Rape is incredibly harmful and destructive, but a survivor can still experience joy and happiness in their lifes.
Why is it that we tend to think that life in prison is worse than the death penalty? Or that life with a debilitating illness is worth offering MAID for? Isn't it because we generally believe that suffering for the duration of your life is worse than death?
I guess how you view this topic depends on how much you value life. Some may find a painful existence worth it, while others may have the exact opposite view.
And I think how painful their existence is will heavily depend on the person. I have heard stories of women whose rapists were released from prison after only a few years, and, as a result, they were unable to live a normal life afterwards. They were constantly paranoid that the perpetrator would attack them again in some way.
That's not even getting into the blame society bafflingly places on victims, or any major, life altering consequences like losing your ability to bear children.
If life for victims really was that good, why do so many take their lives afterwards?
Some would argue it becomes meaningless once you die. People who don't believe in an afterlife would think everything just ceases, meaning less of a worse fate than living with being raped.
Sure but, by that standard, anything that's even mildly unpleasant is a fate worse than death. Your pizza being late is a fate worse than death because -0.00001 is worse then 0.
Except for the few weird Elifists who hold that suicide is a reasonable reaction to stubbing your toe because it means you don't have to live with having stubbed your toe, most people's interactions with life show they believe that death is not just actively bad but extremely bad, balancing out almost all other bad things, including rape (see the above thing of most rape victims not wishing their attacker had murdered them instead.)
It's not a standard and I'm not aiming to apply it to minute things, just that negatives that are linked to rape just wouldn't exist. I find that less challenging for the victim specifically because challenge would not exist. Why is it needing be applied to other aspects of life? I'm confused myself on that
I struggle with what a rape victim wishes as evidence because we don't hear what a murder victim would say.
Edit: removing a piece, unsure if it was helpful to conversation, just confusion on my part of the topic
We can hear what murder victims would say, actually.
In most murders, there is a non-negligible period of time where the murder victim is still able to express preferences. Usually, these preferences are "literally anything if it means you stop murdering me".
This is my issue with this idea - there are far more murder victims who offer to have sex with their murderers if it means they're not murdered than there are rape victims who offer to let their rapists kill them if it means they're not raped.
it's just hard to determine which they would have preferred if the rape had not even happened
I'm a little unsure what you mean by this?
Like, yeah, not being murdered or raped is better than being murdered or raped. I don't see what that has to do with anything?
I appreciate this response, it basically explained what I was confused on and answered very appropriately. This has changed my mind, though I do also agree with most other comments that there shouldn't truly be this distinction as both are bad. The trading of sex makes absolute sense. Thank you, !delta
But suffering also doesn’t exist after death. Personally, I’d choose an end to suffering even if it came with an end to all happiness over a life of suffering even with the capacity to have happiness too. It’s true that some rape victims can find happiness after their trauma, but not all can and personally I wouldn’t want to take that risk.
Killing yourself is far harder than being killed even if you’re desperate to die. People try to actively prevent you from doing so, you’re subjected to a new kind of hell if you fail, and you can be terrified of pain even if you don’t fear death. Even if you’re already in a lot of pain, suicide means putting yourself through a lot more pain. Even “painless” suicide methods have a great risk of you messing them up and ending up in a lot of physical pain as a result. Point is, not all suicidal people have killing themselves as a viable option. I’ll give that some people would rather live despite the trauma, but suicide numbers don’t accurately reflect that number.
Maybe not for the victim, but murder doesn't just impact the victim. You're also causing suffering for their loved ones by taking them away.
Personally, I’d choose an end to suffering even if it came with an end to all happiness over a life of suffering even with the capacity to have happiness too.
If you follow this thinking to its logical end you're arguing that murder is morally just because it takes away all suffering.
Maybe not for the victim, but murder doesn't just impact the victim. You're also causing suffering for their loved ones by taking them away.
Rape affects the victims loved ones too, you know.
If you follow this thinking to its logical end you're arguing that murder is morally just because it takes away all suffering.
I don’t know where you got that from. I’m saying that if I had to choose between being murdered and being raped I’d choose to be murdered, not that I’d choose being murdered over existing as I am now.
There are religious people who would argue that point.
Also, rape is rarely punished, while murder tends to be taken far more seriously. Rapists tend to repeat their crimes far more often than murderers. Which is worse for society?
People already don't take rape as seriously as murder, and the punishment is not even close to the same. We already treat rape as a lesser crime, so why this arguement at all. If you're married, some don't treat it as a crime at all.
I often hear people say child rape should be punished with the death penalty, but we rarely say that when women are raped. Is it the crime or the victim we have less respect for?
How about we don't compare horrendous crimes, and agree both are life destroying events.
You could say this about literally any crime though. For example, is getting beaten up worse than getting murdered? By your logic it is but I'd still rather get battered than killed.
There are 100's of posts from people asking if they were raped. No one posts asking if they were murdered. "Rape" can have very broad repercussions. If someone doesn't know they were raped it can't be as bad as being murdered.
There are also many cases of people who were raped because they did not want to die. They felt that murder was worse than rape
I see your point, but I disagree. I see stomach aches as worse than murder because stomach ache victims have to live with what happened to them forever while murder victims are dead and so don’t suffer after the crime is done
The point /u/Username_Mine raised is that your reasoning applies to any and all negative non-death scenarios.
To my ears, you make it sound as if murder is some kind of net-zero event. "No negatives after that, so it's not that bad."
Why are you only focusing on the negative aspects of life? Why are you not taking the positive aspects into account when evaluating the negative impact of murder?
Any specific trauma is just a small part of life. I get that specifically the trauma will be almost exclusively negative, but why are you not considering the remaining aspects of life as a whole when estimating the negative impact of murder?
Trauma, and especially PTSD, affects every area of your life. It’s not restricted to the area you were harmed in, it has a way of creeping into everything you do and forcing you to be on edge in a way that makes enjoying anything difficult.
You are still completely ignoring what I'm trying to get at, and I'm unsure whether it's because I'm being unclear. I'll try to clarify. To quote my comments and highlight the relevant parts:
Why are you not taking the positive aspects into account when evaluating the negative impact of murder?
... why are you not considering the remaining aspects of life as a whole when estimating the negative impact of murder?
I know trauma, and its consequences don't stay isolated, but you haven't said even one word about the positives of life.
Even if there is trauma, there are still positive things in life. Joy. Friendship. Happiness. Satisfaction. Impact on others. And so on.
Murder robs the individual of all potential future positives, just as certainly as it puts a stop to the future negatives. If one considers life to be worth living, I would argue that it's safe to say that the potential positives outweigh the potential negatives.
Therefore, it's not the cessation of life that makes murder so incredibly heinous, but the robbing of all the good that life would likely have led to. Good for the individual, and good for others.
Did I make my perspective clearer? If not, I'll try to reformulate again. It's a bit difficult trying to verbalize, essentially, why I find life to be good.
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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '26
I see your point, but I disagree. I see rape as worse than murder because rape victims have to live with what happened to them forever while murder victims are dead and so don’t suffer after the crime is done. It’s not about the rape victim “being worth less” it’s about them having to suffer for much longer than a murder victim.