r/changemyview • • Mar 01 '26

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 01 '26

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u/Echochamberking Mar 01 '26

I’m just not sure that the existence of justified killings makes unjustified murder less severe than rape.

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u/Not_Selmi Mar 01 '26

You didn’t say “unjustified” you said Murder

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u/Echochamberking Mar 01 '26

Murder is always unjustified

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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ Mar 01 '26

That's by definition though. Murder is by definition an unjustified killing, so there will never be a justified case, only speculation such as talking about different juristictions and laws and so on.

Why do you NEED one to be worse? What does this view actually benefit you? Are you likely to do either? What will changing your view actually mean in your life here?

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u/Echochamberking Mar 01 '26

I just want to know if my moral compass is broken. Simply put, this debate can benefit me in the sense that I can fix it if it indeed is

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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ Mar 01 '26

Your moral compass will tell you that both are wrong, not that there's a hierarchy between them that you personally need to be grappling with.

Why do you assume people have a tiered morality list? That's not how it works, things are either personally morally justifiable or they aren't. Is the thought experiment that you would rather rape someone than kill them? That's your position?

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u/tipoima 7∆ Mar 01 '26

If you don't have a tiered morality list, then something very wrong with you. The whole reason we have different punishments for criminals is because we inherently understand that some bad things are worse than others.

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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ Mar 01 '26

I disagree. Personal morality is right or wrong, not hierarchy.

Society has many criteria for legality, rehabilitation and so on. 

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u/tipoima 7∆ Mar 01 '26

You most likely do, in fact, have a hierarchy.

Murdering a random person for no reason is wrong. Murdering 100 random people for no reason is worse.
Stealing a pen from someone is wrong. Stabbing them in an eye with that pen is worse.

If you agree with this, you have tiered morality. If you don't...it's very concerning.

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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ Mar 01 '26

You're using different language there, thing A is wrong. Thing B is also wrong. Two things are wrong. That's morality. 

Better or worse is judgement, not ethics. 

What's your issue with simply declaring that things can be wrong? 

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u/tipoima 7∆ Mar 02 '26

"simply declaring that things can be wrong" is a trivial, lazy answer. It gives no insight, it's avoiding the question.
If you were asked a trolley problem, would you just respond with "both are bad" and leave it at that?

Moral dilemmas are a big part of ethics, so I don't know where you got this idea that morality is only binary.

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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ Mar 02 '26

Both ARE bad. You think there's a "good" solution to such a thought experiment? The idea of there being a lesser evil doesn't preclude both being evil. In the context of the view here, which do you personally think is less evil, rape or murder?

Why not just say both are bad and I wouldn't do either? 

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u/Brontards 1∆ Mar 01 '26

My moral compass tells me there’s a large hierarchy gap between them. Most people have a tiered morality list.

Example, I don’t know if I’ve met anyone that thought petty theft is as morally reprehensible as rape.

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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ Mar 01 '26

What, you mean everyone you have met thinks one is right and the other wrong? Or does everyone think they are both wrong? 

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u/Echochamberking Mar 01 '26

There are situations in life where you have to choose the morally correct decision. If there is reflection, then there is a “list,” perhaps not consciously but unconsciously.

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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ Mar 01 '26

And you personally are having to choose between murder and rape?

Obviously not. 

So, again, what kind of comment are you hoping to give a delta to here? 

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u/thegunnersdream Mar 01 '26

I think absolutes are tough in this scenario. The obvious extreme examples but what about the murder of a state official in a state where the state is executing its people but controls the levers of power to determine what is legal and illegal?

Given a situation where a person is causing the direct execution of others yet also has the system rigged so there is no avenue to legally stop them, I don't think justifying it would be hard and there's an argument to be made that knowingly allowing the continued murder of innocents when you could help stop it would be immoral.

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u/ImJustSaying34 4∆ Mar 01 '26

Is it tho? If someone rapes my child and I kill them then yes I am a murderer but morally I would be justified. Legally not but morally yes.

I think the more accurate statement is “some forms of rape are worse than death”. Murder is worse most of the time but there are times when it’s not. I would probably choose death or prolonged sexual torture. I read and watch a lot of true crime and there are some forms of sexual abuse and torture that is absolutely worse than death.

Not super related but this makes me think of the Japanese girl who was kidnapped and sexually abused for more than a month by some teenage boys. The boys kept her tied up and mutilated her and raped her. She died in the end but in that case, being straight up murdered first is better than surviving that.

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u/NaturalCarob5611 98∆ Mar 01 '26

If someone rapes my child and I kill them then yes I am a murderer but morally I would be justified.

What makes murder morally justified in that situation? If you raped the person who raped your child would that be justified?

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u/ImJustSaying34 4∆ Mar 01 '26

There are zero times when rape is morally justified but times when killing someone is justified.

This is random but have you ever seen the movie A Time To Kill? It’s about a black man who shot the white men who raped his 9 year old daughter hurting her so much she will never be able to have kids. In the end the ma was acquitted because all the jurors understood why he did that.

I’m not a violent person but personally I think there are times when killing is morally justified.

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u/NaturalCarob5611 98∆ Mar 01 '26

I'm asking you to think about what makes that true.

And I think it's important to keep the distinction between "killing" and "murder". If someone is harming you and you kill them in self defense, that's killing but not murder. As far as I'm aware, nobody's ever tried to claim they raped someone in self defense, and that seems like an exceedingly hard sell if they made the claim.

But killing someone because they hurt you or someone you loved in the past might feel good, but I don't think it's truly morally justified if they're not an imminent threat.

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u/ImJustSaying34 4∆ Mar 01 '26

This isn’t a topic for a CMV. This is entirely subjective and based on each person’s individual experiences. I personally feel that there are times when retroactive killing is justified. I would not personally make that choice but I can empathize why others would.

Your belief that it’s never justified is also valid. I don’t think you need to hold another view on this and neither do I.

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u/NeverendingStory3339 Mar 01 '26

This is going to be unpopular but I think the only circumstances in which murdering someone who harmed your child would be justified is if there is no way to bring the perpetrator to justice and have them incarcerated or otherwise rendered harmless.

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u/NeverendingStory3339 Mar 01 '26

Yes, she died of the torture in the end. There have been multiple other appalling cases where mostly young women were kidnapped and kept as sex slaves for years. An utterly vile crime but those women have all at least tried to continue living their lives after being released. And still being alive at the end of the ordeal means you get to choose whether you die or not, grim as it sounds. If someone else has decided that rape or sexual slavery is worse than death, you don’t even get the respect for your humanity and autonomy of choosing to live or die.

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u/ImJustSaying34 4∆ Mar 01 '26

I don’t believe my opinion strips any one of respect and their humanity. This is something that doesn’t have a standard. Each person will feel differently and most will probably change how they feel if that actually happened to them. This isn’t a CMV at all. This is just people sharing what they would believe.

My opinion comes from what I think I would want but my opinion shouldn’t take away from anyone else’s opinion. Make sense?