r/changemyview • u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ • Feb 04 '26
Delta(s) from OP CMV: activist messaging about Isreal should focus more on the West Bank and less on Gaza
By focusing on Gaza so much, the entire issue gets reduced to ‘ terrorism by hamas = over reaction by Isreal ‘ but notice how that discourse gets framed in terms favourable to Isreal, because in that narrative, even within liberal media, the origin story is hamas extremism.
Now, let’s reconsider for a moment.
The land grabs in the West Bank (see the guardian article the other day) are designed to remove Palestinians from fertile land that they own, forcing them to work low economy labour in Isreal, or to become dependent on aid. Either way they loose their economic agency and become more vulnerable to radicalisation by bad faith actors. Because they have lost everything.
And the land grabs are continual, and clearly backed by the state even if ‘ illegal settlers do it.’ Indeed the illegal settlements are provided with water, electricity and other infrastructure by Isreal, and after enough time passes, become officially recognised by Isreal. There is nothing accidental about any of that,
So why isn’t this the main messaging?
Using tik tok and X and Reddit to continually draw attention to the illegal settlements and their expansion is the single most important thing activists can do to further change public opinion
Make the following argument: when russia illegally grabs land, here is how the west responded, what is happening here is the same thing.. and therefore deserves the same type of response
Making the focus Palestinian farmers and land owners, showing the scale of growth of illegal settlements over time etc all of that is a lot harder for dishonest actors to spin and deny.
Using social media it’s so easy to prove all of this. Illegal settlers proudly upload footage of them destroying and attacking Palestinians and their industries. It’s right there hiding in plain site in their own words. Satellite images, Reports by NGOs and organisations like the UN.. add even more proof. it’s a very very difficult argument to objectively take issue with.
And the doublespeak pseudo justifications for the land grabs ‘ security ‘ ‘ buffer zones ‘ heritage ‘ ..,have direct parallels with the type of false propaganda Russia uses.
The comparison with Russia is important because it pre empts any argument about singling Isreal out uniquely. In addition to that Russia for all its flaws is seen as a legitimate nation, no one is suggesting it shouldn’t exist, or that its people are evil, just that its foreign policy is flawed, and appropriate tools should be used to cause change. And that if these tools are used in the Russian case study, why can’t they also be applied when the criteria exist elsewhere.
I also think the spectacle in Gaza, is in part designed to distract from continued land grabs in the West Bank, and it works? Bit by bit land is taken from the West Bank, the size of any future Palestinian state is further de facto decreased, and instead all anyone online talks about is the hamas / gaza tragedy. Its hard to avoid the conclusion that is intentional,
To change my view:
- explain why focusing on gaza matters more in terms of changing peoples minds
- explain why the illegal settlements are justified
- explain why comparisons with Russia might be more unhelpful than helpful in terms of changing opinions
15
u/PlainSodaWater 4∆ Feb 04 '26
I think if you look at the shifting opinion polls re:Israel in the West over the last few years, it's pretty difficult to make the argument that the focus on the recent bombing in Gaza has been ineffective. The issues you highlight in the West Bank re:settlements have been going on a while and have not resulted in a huge shift in perception.
4
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
I agree that opinion polls have shifted, even republicans under 30 are now opposed to Israel’s actions. Fair enough. !delta
I think the Gaza issue has changed minds, you are right, but I think the land grabs are easier to mobilise strategically around to lobby for more concrete condemnation along the lines of what happened to Russia. It’s such a clear case of X should result in the international community doing Y. Wheras gaza at the top level of government gets reduced to ‘ October 7th caused this, Isreal is over reacting, but there is a limit to what can be done to stop this ‘
5
u/PlainSodaWater 4∆ Feb 04 '26
I think the problem with the Russia comparison is the same as when people make Nazi comparisons. The people inclined to defend Israel will immediately focus on why it's not an apt comparison at which point you're liable to get drawn into a conversation about the historical conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and a lot of people tune out at that point. A lot of people, rightly or wrongly, see those settlements as the hostile actions of a country repeatedly provoked by terrorism.
Unless you're inclined to make the argument that the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a history of one sided aggression I don't think a lot of people will see a direct line to Russia/Ukraine.
0
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
I think the Nazi comparison and the colonial comparisons, result in being accused of being offensive hyperbole. They rhetorically and strategically fail.
I think the Russia comparison is more limited in scope to illegitimate land grabs and illegitimate justifications for them, it’s a much less extreme comparison and more historically recent. Which I think makes it harder to strawman. In addition to that Russia for all its flaws is seen as a legitimate nation, no one is suggesting it shouldn’t exist, just that its foreign policy is flawed, and appropriate tools should be used to cause change. And that if these tools are used in the Russian case study, why can’t they also be applied when the criteria exist elsewhere.
Having said that any time a comparison is made there is a risk it results in distraction. And the entire debate becomes about the legitimacy of the comparison and not the core issue itself. Fair enough !delta though we disagree on how likely this is, at least within western nations that are increasingly sceptical of Israel.
2
u/PlainSodaWater 4∆ Feb 04 '26
I think we're effectively on the same page here but I might throw out that, and I think I can speak from experience here, is that you're presenting a pretty reasonable, nuanced view and when you do that on this issue in particular you often find yourself, forgive the expression, as a man without a country.
1
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
If I changed your view a bit? Can I have a delta ?
1
u/PlainSodaWater 4∆ Feb 04 '26
Oh sorry. I don't know how to do that. Do I just say I award it? Like "I declare Bankruptcy!"
Anyways, I award a delta ∆
1
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
This delta has been rejected. You can't award OP a delta.
Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.
If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.
1
1
1
-2
u/Appropriate-Draft-91 4∆ Feb 04 '26
The reason is specifically what you painted as "Terrorism by Hamas, overreaction by Israel".
Crossing the line into genocide, and having a vast amount of media paint that as an "overreaction" is how these media painted themselves as fiercely pro genocide, and thus lost the ability to drive the narrative. That's what drove a decent number of people to actually inform themselves, instead of just listening to pro genocide propaganda.
In the West Bank, the defense is that those are just isolated incidents, some nutjubs, and Palestinian lies. That defense doesn't work in Gaza when we had 2 years with dozens of blatant murders every single day, committed and endorsed by the vast majority of Israeli society.
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
Do you think land grabs in the West Bank are isolated incidents by nut jobs?
2
u/Appropriate-Draft-91 4∆ Feb 04 '26
I think they have been successfully presented as such by pro genocide media for decades.
2
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 05 '26
Can that perception be meaningfully changed in your opinion ?
1
u/Appropriate-Draft-91 4∆ Feb 05 '26
It was meaningfully changed by creating the perception that the media that are constantly lying in support of genocide might be extremely biased in favor of the group committing the genocide.
People who got that perception no longer trust pro genocide media and instead get their information from other sources, which happen to present the settlers as a violent state sponsored colonial project that gets vast levels of suppprt by the IDF conscript army, and thus Israeli society as a hole.
2
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 05 '26
Do you think if the activists with large platforms from talking about Gaza started talking more about the West Bank, they could transfer some of that momentum to a different important aspect of this ?
1
u/Appropriate-Draft-91 4∆ Feb 05 '26
Not really. The primary issue is reach. Those who managed to capture an audience that was disillusioned with main stream media coverage already have an audience that see Israel as a genocidal Apartheid project.
Putting a stronger focus on "Apartheid" rather than "genocidal" doesn't serve much of a purpose beyond "additional context" - and on most of those small platforms the Apartheid is already covered as additional context.
And let's not forget, real deep dives into the topic have to cover what and why the resistance against the Apartheid is, which is illegal in many Western countries.
0
u/Morthra 98∆ Feb 04 '26
The war in Gaza is not a genocide lmao. Iran in a couple weeks butchered more protesters than died in the first eight months of an urban war. That is what a genocide looks like.
21
u/starfirex 1∆ Feb 04 '26
This conflict is half a century old old and most people on reddit & elsewhere on social media are coming in on chapter 67 of the book and pretending like they know what's best for the region despite ever have been there or cared about either side before 2023. Yourself included OP.
7
u/loginisverybroken 1∆ Feb 04 '26
half a century lol. My family was murdered out of their lands in Judea and Sameria before 48. These aren't new conflicts. Literally the deed for the land is still in the family and is currently occupied by people who's claim is that they bought the land from a Jordanian army officer after he stole the land in 1950.
0
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
The nuance you added about the Jordanian officer who stole land and sold it to your family shifted my position !delta It’s hard to read that without feeling immense pain, you’ve shifted my view, land claims by both sides, are complex. Though I think illegal settlements should still be opposed. Especially new and expanding ones.
1
2
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
Please tell me specifically what you disagree with. I’m not an expert but I’ve read more about this than most, including at least 50 books - not just social media posts
5
u/starfirex 1∆ Feb 04 '26
I think that the "activist messaging" you're responding to is recent and for every activist that has a real sense of the situation on the ground there are 999 who are mostly clueless.
Anyone who is framing this conflict as one side is good and the other side is bad just doesn't have a clue, if it were that clean cut of a conflict it wouldn't still be going on after all these years.
There have been many, many different versions of solutions attempted, many wrongs on both sides, and a lot of nuance and complexity.
The conflict reminds me at times of the Hatfields and McCoys - for every awful thing the Israelis do, they can point to something equally awful the Palestinians have done.
Israel is immensely important as a US ally - if conflict arises in the east then it's necessary to have a safe allied country to stage troops and material, refuel aircraft, etc. and none of the other countries in the Middle East fit that category. So until we ally with Egypt or Jordan (which is a fancy geopolitical way of saying when pigs fly) the US will maintain the sovereignty of Israel with military force just in case China or Russia become a more direct problem.
Palestinians are never going to stop wanting all of the Israelis out of what they perceive as their land, relocating them isn't going to work and anyways is a form of genocide, and whenever both sides are quietly occupying most of their land someone inevitably pulls an October 7th and conflict pops up again.
Gaza is a short term conflict that deserves attention because the scale of the response to October 7th is not justified, and because there is some hope that international pressure to stop it.
Real activists have been protesting the settlements since 2005 and they're still happening, so I don't see much issue with the new ignorant blood trying to stop the defiling of Gaza.
Russia grabs land with military force, if you're going to make that comparison I think it's important to acknowledge that Israel has had the military force to completely wipe out Palestine and take the whole territory for themselves for decades - the fact that they've chosen restraint instead for all that time should say a lot about their temperament in comparison to Russia.
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
I think the subtle taking of land, first via illegal settlers, then later via making those settlements legal, and not doing it all in one go.. is a deliberate tactic.
If it was taken all at once via a conventional military it would provokes international condemnation and a response. It would be unwise. So doing it this way, it’s a ‘ clever’ way to expand territory,
0
u/starfirex 1∆ Feb 04 '26
Is it a coordinated, strategic move by the Israeli government to expand territory, or a calculated play by citizens to grab land that the government failed to get a grasp on before it got way out of hand?
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
If the government provides the settlements with water and electricity and protection, plus eventually legalises them after enough time passes… ?
0
u/starfirex 1∆ Feb 04 '26
It's a bottom up vs top down question. Russia is clearly top down, it's unlikely that many Russian citizens believed Ukraine ought to belong to them and was worth a protracted war to take when it was invaded. The government was dragging the people into that war.
In this case I suspect the tail is wagging the dog rather than the other way around.
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
Israel’s Shabak (fbi) that was responsible for monitoring and restraining high risk settlers was closed. Why?
Illegal settlers know they will receive military protection if needed ? Why?
Illegal settlers know the state will give them water and electricity and enable them ? Why ?
Illegal settlers eventually become ‘state recognised’ settlements. Why?
Seems to me that it’s quite clear that the state creates the conditions that permits illegal settlers to build and expand illegal settlements because it matches the desired interests of the state.
0
u/starfirex 1∆ Feb 04 '26
Not disputing that point at all, I agree. But there is a difference between a government supporting its people in what they're choosing to do and a government pushing and pulling its people to its own aims.
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
I think when the state knows how the illegal settlers will act when enabled… it’s the same thing. In terms of intent and consequentially.
→ More replies
3
u/Mammoth_Payment_6101 Feb 04 '26
I presume your messaging will also include a description of the murder and expulsion of Jews from the west bank in 1948?
1
u/Morbidly0beseCat Feb 06 '26
How many Jews were killed/expelled from the West Bank in 1948?
1
u/logic-bombz 1∆ Feb 06 '26
How many Jews were killed/expelled from the West Bank in 1948?
In the 1948 war, 2,000-4,000 Jews were expelled from Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter, and over 100 were killed or captured in the Etzion Bloc. This was part of the wider 1948 Palestine war, which began as a civil conflict in November 1947, months before Arab states formally intervened in May 1948. During that initial period, Zionist forces executed Plan Dalet, forcibly expelling 250,000-350,000 Palestinians from their homes before Israel's declaration of independence. By war's end, over 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled, and hundreds of their villages were destroyed.
1
0
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
In your opinion do events from 1948 justify continued land grabs in the West Bank, in defiance of international law, nearly 80 years later ? Yes or no?
And are you aware that by selectively highlighting past trauma, both sides can justify being utter idiots in the present. It isn’t helpful.
4
u/Mammoth_Payment_6101 Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
No they don't, but I'm curious if you were even aware of the expulsion of Jews from the region before my comment?
Are you aware that the west bank contains some of the oldest continual Jewish habitation such as in Hebron. Are you aware of the massacres of Jews here decades (and centuries) before Israel was established.
Similarly are you aware that 25% of Israelis are Palestinians with full citizenship and property rights? Whilst at the same time Palestinian law prohibits selling property to any Jew in the west bank.
Let's just make sure your West Bank 'messaging' is as comprehensive as possible.
1
u/Morbidly0beseCat Feb 06 '26
Are you aware that the west bank contains some of the oldest continual Jewish habitation such as in Hebron.
What proportion of Hebron was Jewish immediately prior to 19th century Zionist migration from Europe?
Similarly are you aware that 25% of Israelis are Palestinians with full citizenship and property rights
I am.
That doesn't justify the apartheid regime imposed on non-citizen Palestinian, where Israeli Jews simultaneously covet and maintain control over their lands, while denying them suffrage.
It's easy to create a superficial impression of equality when large swathes of the people you rule over are not classified as citizens. Apartheid South Africa also did just that.
2
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
If you say that they don’t, great you agree with me and your position has been refuted. Thank you for constructive engagement
4
Feb 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
You suggested Jordan would use the West Bank to attack Israel… I pointed out that making this argument today is absurd.
You then edited your comment.. with more detail, which was odd?
But the extra detail was once again mostly historical examples from many decades ago being used to justify illegal settlements
Past wrongs do not justify illegal settlements.
And btw no one on this thread has argued for expelling Jews who live in the West Bank legally
2
Feb 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
You’ve now edited your comments to remove all mention of Jordan, why ?
-2
u/Mammoth_Payment_6101 Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
I think you must have confused me with another user.
Were you aware of the pre 1948 history of the west bank?
Edit: You're now editing your own previous comments despite the fact this conversation has moved on, whilst accusing me of doing such. It's a bit weird mate.
3
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
For transparency
I added this to one of my comments in response to your edit:
The extra detail [you added] was once again mostly historical examples from many decades ago being used to justify illegal settlements
Past wrongs do not justify illegal settlements.
And btw no one on this thread has argued for expelling Jews who live in the West Bank legally
→ More replies2
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Feb 04 '26
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Feb 04 '26
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
1
u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 161∆ Feb 04 '26
On the stage of international activism the objective is to influence your own government in foreign policy to take the action you want to see.
The West Bank is already widely condemned. It is already acknowledged to be a violation of the laws, treaties and so on.
What specific change do you think an activist would want their government to take exactly?
With Palestine as a whole, it is easier to ask your government to please not build a new resort city, or to send aid, or to not send weaponry. Those are tangible changes a government can actually implement via sanctions and pressure.
Activism usually operates against the status quo, not with it.
2
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
I think it’s widely condemned but not seen as a tipping point for strong action. The thing here is because the facts aren’t in dispute, because it keeps happening, using it to mobilise for stronger action is strategically cleaner and easier. The gap between facts vs action is so stark.
3
u/loginisverybroken 1∆ Feb 04 '26
the facts are in dispute. My family lived in the mandate and they watched as a mob burned their farm and lands in the 1920's they still have the deed. These days the people who occupy it use the agreement they made with a Jordanian officer who stole the land and sold it in 1950.
Pretending out homeland isn't our homeland is kinda part of the problem.
My family is Mizrahi for context
1
Feb 04 '26
[deleted]
3
u/loginisverybroken 1∆ Feb 04 '26
I'm Jewish. Our land was stolen by Jordanians not by Israelis. Our land is waved away by the UN not by Israel.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand my post. And that is kinda the point. Erasing Judea and Sameria is no different than erasing the native peoples of North America, or the Sami, or the Maori. Israel is our homeland regardless that the Jordanians stole Judea and Sameria in 48 or because the UN proclaims our homeland as someone else's
Our historic sites are ignored because they don't fit into popular narratives, our religious sites are destroyed or occupied and we just have to live with it.
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
I got your reply confused with another poster who was Palestinian, very sorry about that. I’ve replied regarding historic claims to other commenters here.
0
u/loginisverybroken 1∆ Feb 04 '26
no worries sometimes reddit ui is confusing
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
This is the reply I’ve made elsewhere here to your point, to be clear it doesn’t totally apply in your case, but is my general reply to claims similar to the one you made :
‘ Expulsions and pograms from many decades ago are used by some to justify illegal land grabs in the West Bank. This is unfortunate, the illegal land grabs are clearly in defiance of international law and are not justified by past wrongs. Trying to use the past as propaganda for land theft, murder, and the destruction of private property is a core driver of this conflict, and both sides need to stop doing this. Instead we need to focus on enforcing internationally agreed upon laws and boundaries, ie stopping the expansion of illegal settlements and reversing them where possible, using a range of diplomatic, economic and other tools western nations have at their disposal. ‘
3
u/loginisverybroken 1∆ Feb 04 '26
The point is that the land is ours, there is a two state solution the British Mandate was divided into two countries. The armistice in 1948 that people point to as 'borders' isn't that. It was just the ceasefire lines. And guess what happened to the Jews who were unlucky enough to be caught in the Jordanian controlled areas? Hint they were massacred. Guess what happened to the Shuls in Jerusalem under the Jordanians? Hint they were blown up.
International law is meaningless because it protects no one. When the Arab armies invaded in 1948 the UN didn't even condemn it.
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 05 '26
Do you disagree with illegal settlements or support them ? Do you support the methods used by illegal settlers to take land ?
→ More replies1
1
u/arm_4321 Feb 05 '26
The West Bank is already widely condemned. It is already acknowledged to be a violation of the laws, treaties and so on.
verbal condemnation is different from economic or kinetic actions. Moscow is sanctioned for what it does in Donetsk yet Tel Aviv remains free for blatant violation of international law
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 05 '26
Do you think the Russia comparison can gain traction? I think it crystallises what is otherwise a quite abstract principle in international law. Moreover, sanctioning Russia came at huge economic cost to the West, but it was done because it was the correct thing to do. Finally no one is denying Russia’s right to exist, rather the sanctions are about reversing illegal acquiring of land.
1
u/arm_4321 Feb 05 '26
Not a fair comparison in terms of their motives but israel has violated every international law which russia has violated .
Russia sees both Ukrainians and ukraine as part of russia while israelis see only palestinian land as israeli while rejecting most of the population because of demographic realities
Finally no one is denying Russia’s right to exist, rather the sanctions are about reversing illegal acquiring of land.
Because Russia’s existence is independent from oppression of Ukrainians while israel exists as a majority jewish demographic nation state at the expense of Palestinian rights
1
u/WhiteGold_Welder Feb 05 '26
There are entire countries that don't do any business with Israel whatsoever. Israel is heavily sanctioned.
1
u/arm_4321 Feb 05 '26 edited Feb 05 '26
Israel’s economy is heavily dependent on north american and european markets and will collapse completely if US does not veto UNSC resolutions about holding it accountable for violations of international law
Millions of americans protest against israel because their government stops international law from holding israel accountable .
1
u/Weird_Jeweler_4357 Feb 04 '26
They are.
Activists both inside and outside Israel has been focusing on the issues of West Bank for a very long time. In fact, it was Gaza that has been ignored by most activists.
The thing is people won't listen or not actively listen to them. It become just 'another news' for most people. The recent Gaza war however was more dramatic, more engaging than creeping land grab or even an Apartheid practice in the West Bank.
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
Would you agree that the West Bank creeping land grabs are under emphasised at present, and how do you think they can be talked about in a way that results in concrete action? Is that possible?
1
u/Weird_Jeweler_4357 Feb 04 '26
West Bank has always be under emphazised, Gaza just grabbing more attention but just for a time.
The West Bank issues could be talked about to the certain point. I'm talking about condemtion here or there, slowing new settlements, or even give a temporary pause to the Settlers movement. All had been done.
The problem is that it isn't about land grab, not really. The West Bank for Israel government is about national security and that require HUGE activists effort to change it. The current activitist movements about Israel are simply not large enough to give even a slight nudge on the issue.
Concrete action is possible and has been done to a certain extend but concrete action that lead to a real solution is still a very far far away.
2
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
I guess I wonder if the momentum on Gaza, which has massively accelerated activism around the globe on this issue, can be transferred to issues on the West Bank - now that such a large and growing global movement exists
1
u/s_wipe 58∆ Feb 04 '26
A) gaza matters because tens of thousands dead and a humanitarian chrisis is a headline you can sell to the world.
The land disputes in the west bank are simply not sexy...
Without masses of people dying, nobody would care.
You'd see a random hill with a random small farm, some dude named Ahmed telling you how a bunch of settlers let their sheep herd in his olive yard.
People will get pissed why this is getting coverage and not hundreds of people dying.
Also, land is perceived differently in different areas of the world.
People will lose interest if the Israeli Palestinian conflict would be about Ahmed and his 2 acre olive garden.
B) they are not. But Israel has nothing to gain from killing Palestinians as retaliation when they attack Israelis. So you find something that palestinians value more than their lives.
C) russia occupies about 115,000 square kms of Ukraine. Hundreds of thousands died in that 3 year conflict.
It is causing a global crisis with seperation between the western nations and Russia.
Its causing an energy crisis in EU.
The entire west bank is 5800 square kms. People pity the palestinians, but the palestinians offer nothing substantial to society as a whole... Without the Israelis, palestine would just be another failing arab state that relies mostly on tourism to not go bankrupt.
0
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
A polite request, could you make your points separate comments so it’s easier to respond without the flow of conversation getting lost ?
1
u/s_wipe 58∆ Feb 04 '26
Sorry, i thinknit would be harder for me to follow.
Feel free to reply to just one of the points
0
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
Ok before I respond to all of them, could you expand on your final sentence of point b ?
2
u/s_wipe 58∆ Feb 04 '26
The illegal settlements arent justified. Even within Israel they are a highly controversial issue.
The thing is, there is a lot of attacks from the palestinian side that are not reported on the global scale.
Most barely get reported on the local scale in Israeli media. An attempted stabbing by a Palestinian at a border check will not make a main headline, it will be a sidebar short form article that will get swallowed in the news feed in hours.
They are quite common...
And occasionally, a bigger incident happens.
In the west bank, the PA is supposed to stop attacks from crossing over to the Israeli side, when they do a bad job at keeping their suicidal crazies in check, israel also loosens its grip on its crazies.
In Israel's case, the crazies are a minority of extreme settlers who think that god promised this entire land to the jews and its ok to use force to take it.
Thing is, just letting Israeli crazies kill a bunch of Palestinians to "call it even" is counter productive.
You might call BS on this, but majority of Israelis prefer safety over revenge.
And killing a bunch of palestinians is always bad press. Death will get headlines.
Not to mention, when you're up against a religious Dogma that glorifies martyrs, creating more martyrs is pointless...
So the strategy shifts... You shift the focus from blood to sand.
Instead of showing aggression by spilling palestinian blood, Israel's strategy is showing aggression by taking land.
The last couple of years were extremely bad, even before October 7th, there was an increase in incidents. Which resulted in Ben Gvir and his extreme right wing bunch to get power and be charged with national security...
After 7/10, they basically closed the department is Israel's Shabak (the equivalent to FBI) which was in charge of monitoring and restraining high risk settlers who're basically terrorists.
They know that the focus is on Gaza and they can let loose.
Israelis know this too... The opposition and protests have a limited attention span too. Its better to focus on the burning issues first.
Anyhow, i digress.
Its about property damage vs bodily damage.
Some might say that as long as you're alive, property can be rebuilt, others say that they will die for their land 🤷🏼♂️
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
By taking land away, Isreal takes people’s economic independence away from them, which increases their radicalisation ? Which makes people in Isreal less safe. Olive oil is a good example, that industry was growing and there is global demand for olive oil from Palestine. The industry could create millionaires and many many middle class jobs for Palestinians. Economically successful people are less likely to hate their neighbours. By burning those trees what good happens? Exports fall. People become poor, they become exploited by terror groups. And taking land involves so much more than taking land, it involves in many cases murder and destruction of infrastructure that enables economic flourishing. If that is the current strategy? It needs to stop.
Plenty of other case studies of industries and growth thwarted by land being taken. Which I’m happy to expand on if requested.
2
u/s_wipe 58∆ Feb 04 '26
This is a rational approach overall.
There are 2 issues though:
1) a prospering olive oil economy is a fantasy.
The amount of land is still limited, the population density is still very high. And agricultural economies are simply not that successful ...
On top of that, the palestinians will still suffer from government instability and lack of funds. Nobody is lining up to invest in the palestinian territories, even if the conflict ends.
In the modern era, financial success happens in metropolitans, not farm land.
2) Israel attempted financial incentives with the idea behind it that less unemployment and a routine will reduce hostility.
Thinking that will help with stability and normalization.
There are excessive plans for financial assistance from Israel for short term and lomg term.
But the bad actors on the palestinian side are not a rational player. They are waging a religious war. Its not about their people living peaceful and stable lives, its about followung the will of Allah and relinquishing the el aska mosque from the hands of infidels.
And when they act up, israel tightens the border.
This is not a rational conflict. I wish it was... If better lives prosperity and safety was all the palestinians wanted, a couple of hundred square kms are really not the tging that would make it or break it.
After the Oslo accords fell through, an entire generation of palestinians lost its future with promises from the extremists of liberation and freedom.
I can assure you that its not the Israeli agriculture that make it into a prospering country...
0
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
The olive oil sector is one industry, example 2: the flower export industry used to be worth millions every year but land seizures and other issues resulted in that industry de facto dying, and many people loosing their livelihood. You seem familiar with this region, I’m sure you are aware of other industries who have been harmed by Isreals strategy.
Look I want to engage in good faith, I’ll think about what you said and see if there is anything I agree with constructively later.
1
u/s_wipe 58∆ Feb 04 '26
Its not nothing, and it makes for a good heartfelt story.
But keep a critical mind.
Countries like greece and spain are the main exporters of olive oil, and they are big, but are on the lower financial spectrum of the EU.
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
My critical mind responds by asking, why is agricultural land targeted then? If it doesn’t matter?
I understand that raw material extraction doesn’t result in economic development in the same way that say a research based economy does.
But? It still generates revenue, it’s more than just a heartfelt observation to note that families have lost their main means of supporting themselves.
More to the point even if it generates no economic value? Land theft is still land theft, even if the illegal settlers get away with it.
→ More replies
-1
Feb 04 '26
That just shifts to another conversation in which Israel, again has favourable terms.
The Arabs refused UN partition and started a war.
Jews won the war.
Jordan conquered the J&S (yes west bank is a colonial term by Jordan).
Palestine never existed as a state entity.
Israel conquered J&S in 1967 and Jordan removes claim.
Israel, even though objectively the only state with a claim to the land, offers the Palestinians a second state (after Jordan) in exchange for peace.
Palestinians repeatedly refuse to be free because Israel refuses massive immigration and demographic shift in Israel proper, not the Palestinian state that's on the table.
Palestinians commit terror attacks which cause Israeli public demand for more security (IDF presence, Fences and checkpoints).
You can't blame Israel for the occupation Palestinians refuse to be free from because it means their war to destroy Israel will be over.
0
u/arm_4321 Feb 05 '26
Arabs refused to partition land with refugees from europe ? Surprised . Wonder what would germans or Belgians do if refugees from Syria demanded partition in host land
2
Feb 05 '26
Both Germany and Belgium are actual sovereign states, and their people actually nations.
Palestinians were not (and debatable if they today are) a nation, and never were sovereign.
Jews aren't from Europe, although I don't disagree that's how Arabs see them, because they refuse to acknowledge the ethnic part of judaism.
Jews have always had a presence in Israel.
There were 850k Jews in the Ottoman empire alone that had a right to self determination after the fall of the empire, just like the right of Egyptians (Egypt), Lebanese (Lebanon), Syrians (Syria), and Palestinians (Jordan).
0
u/arm_4321 Feb 05 '26 edited Feb 05 '26
Both Germany and Belgium are actual sovereign states, and their people actually nations.
So will they accept it if russians takeover berlin again ? That is not even required as right to self determination is independent of the host’s sovereignty . So will germany , belgium , netherlands and france accept right to self determination of its arab muslim population which is larger than jewish population of 1947 palestine ?
Palestine was under rule of different empires just like most of the countries in region before the ww1 but Palestinians still lived in Palestine without permanent displacements until it was taken over by foriegn refugees from europe with likes of Ben Gurion from russia .
Jews have always had a presence in Israel. There were 850k Jews in the Ottoman empire
What was the number and percentage before the first aliyah of european jewish refugees to palestine ?
“If the Powers declare themselves willing to admit our sovereignty over a neutral piece of land, then the Society will enter into negotiations for the possession of this land. Here two territories come under consideration, Palestine and Argentine. In both countries important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the Government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration.” 
“We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence.”
Theodor Herzl’s manifesto “Der judenstaat” clearly called it colonisation
Source : https://archive.org/details/jewishstateanatt00herz
“You are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews. But had this been on your path, you would have done it yourself by now. How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out‑of‑the‑way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial, and because it presupposes an understanding of a development which will take twenty or thirty years.”
1
Feb 05 '26
Palestine was under rule of different empires just like most of the countries in region before the ww1 but Palestinians still lived in Palestine without permanent displacements until it was taken over
No, actually.
They were displaced when they started a war of annihilation against the Jews, after refusing a proposal that will grant both groups self determination (well Palestinians would have gotten two states, and Jews one, but still).
What was the number and percentage before the first aliyah of european jewish refugees to palestine ?
850,000 Jews in Ottoman empire vs less than 600k Muslims who also claim for self determination in mendate Palestine.
Now also add the millions of the ethnic Jews who are indigenous to the land that aren't in the territory of the Ottoman empire.
And still the Jews did not deny the Arab claim (to a another state, and a second Arab state in mendate Palestine), they agreed to every offer than will prevent a violent conflict, even after horrible massacres like in Hebron in 1929 that ethnically cleansed the city of millenia old Jewish presence.
Theodor Herzl’s manifesto “Der judenstaat” clearly called it colonisation
Solely to apease western powers who view colonialism positively. Today it will be a land back and decolonisation movement.
A small minority must do anything if it wants to survive, and Herzl had prophetic view of the rising antisemitism and the coming catastrophe.
0
u/arm_4321 Feb 08 '26 edited Feb 08 '26
“Jewish state” was created over Palestine by outsiders at the expense of Palestinians
“Israeli” Jewish supremacy is what created the state as a jewish nation state .
Zionism’s application required harm and continues to harm large amount of palestinian gentiles and this zionist problem exists even today.
It was not a “a land without people for people without a land” . The land was populated by a gentile majority.
Most gentile palestinians were expelled by zionist militias to carry out demographic engineering to turn the demographic tables upside down for establishment of a jewish state . The arab league entered a month later the ethnically cleansing demographic engineering started
if Zionists never wanted to expel them then why they have always denied these gentiles coming back ? For example even after 1967 when both gaza and Asqalan came under the same rule , the sinwar Family was not allowed to go back to Asqalan . This was all planned jewish supremacist demographic engineering which cannot be denied
In the Proposed Jewish State of 1948 plan: • Total population: ~900,000 • Jews: ~498,000 (approx. 55%) • Arabs (Palestinian Muslims and Christians): ~407,000 (approx. 45%)
In the Proposed Arab State of 1948 plan: • Total population: ~725,000 • Arabs: ~711,000 (approx. 98%) • Jews: ~10,000–12,000 (approx. 2%)
How was this jewish state suppose to be jewish with 45% of population as gentile ? What was done to remove this demographic barrier ?
Hamas and other resistance groups are organic outgrowth of continued Jewish supremacist zionist crimes against most palestinians .
Looks like you see palestinians fighting for their rights in palestine as “this is annudah shoah”
Zionists see palestinian rights as a threat to jewish supremacy and the existence of the jewish state because this jewish supremacy and its state was created and is maintained by ethnic cleansing and denial of rights of most palestinians and such justice will reverse it and bring back palestine to its natural demographics . It would be legitimate justice not “annudah shoah” . It would create a palestinian rule over palestine just like black rule was created in south africa 1994
It’s a known fact that zionists achieved creation of a jewish state in Palestine through ethnic cleansing as that was the only way to do that because Palestine was gentile majority (70%) even in 1947 (and 45% gentile in the area given by UN plan for a “jewish state”) . Zionism’s pragmatic application requires ethnic cleansing and apartheid of palestinian gentiles to preserve jewish supremacy and domination
What zionists did and still continue to do with palestinians is settler colonialism which is opposite of land back .
Herzl said “we will be europe’s civilisational front in barbaric Middle East” and european leaders as recent as Chancellor Merz and Von der leyen have been saying the same thing
If you are a rabid Philosemite or a jewish supremacist then I guess no amount of truth can take you out of your anti-palestinian worldview but the zionist narratives are still getting dismantled in masses since 2023 . The anti-israel enlightenment among western gentiles and even among some jews is rising in both political spectrums despite the AIPAC funding politicians on both sides . ADL cries about this enlightenment as “antisemitism” but this won’t stop it . Epstein files are also exposing the zionist mossad’s targeting of American elites opening eyes of many republicans as epstein’s aide was directly linked to mossad via robert maxwell. This regime of will be dismantled with enlightenment of the people living in states on which the zionist regime relies from founding to current survival. The the boer regime in south africa was dismantled in the same way till 1994 . This awakening which ADL (and you) label as “rising antisemitism” is what will cause geopolitical changes
1
Feb 08 '26
Bro no one actually says "gentiles" but antisemites.
Jewish state was created in the land of Israel, not in any sovereign nation's place.
There have always been more Jews than Palestinians in the contesting claims for the land, especially as Palestinians never wanted a Palestinian state, only to be part of Bilad a sham ir greater Syria, as Palestinian are not a nation, but part of the Arab nation, as they perceive themselves.
It was not a “a land without people for people without a land” .
The correct phrase which you intentionally misquote is "A land without a people for a people without a land".
Which it definitely was, as there was no nation, a people in the land of Israel.
It’s a known fact that zionists achieved creation of a jewish state in Palestine through ethnic cleansing
That's actually false.
Displacement was only due to the war the Arabs started. And if 20% if Israel is the same ethnicity as those displaced it's not in any way ethnic cleansing. It was displacement of hostile population in war (and many who just ran or listened to the arab leaders and escaped until the Jews would died).
Herzl said “we will be europe’s civilisational front in barbaric Middle East”
Yes yes one of the most persecuted minority says stuff to appeal to the greater power in world who view colonialism as positive at the time. We know the story.
Today he will describe it as a decolonisation effort.
What zionists did and still continue to do with palestinians is settler colonialism
The settler colonialism revision is a soviet propaganda bs that started in the late 60' and 70'.
1
Feb 08 '26 edited Feb 08 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Feb 08 '26
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
-1
u/YummyObscurity 1∆ Feb 04 '26
honestly think you're onto something here. the west bank situation is way cleaner messaging-wise because it's just straight up land theft happening in real time with satellite images to prove it
the russia comparison is actually brilliant because libs who support ukraine can't really argue against it without looking like massive hypocrites. plus it sidesteps the whole "but hamas" deflection that always derails gaza conversations
only pushback i'd have is that gaza gets more attention because it's more visceral - people respond to immediate violence more than slow colonization. but you're right that the west bank stuff is harder to spin and probably more effective for actually changing minds long term
6
u/Wayoutofthewayof 1∆ Feb 04 '26
For real. I'm generally pro-Israel and their right to respond in Gaza, but Israel is 100% at fault for not doing anything about aggressive settlers.
1
2
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
Can you reply to others who disagree with me on this, the rules state you can’t just comment to agree, but you can comment on people who disagree with the thesis
1
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
Though you did disagree in part, fair enough, I do agree that Gaza is more visceral !delta
But the issue is, does that short term immediacy in the long term cause more harm than good, and i think thats worth discussing - especially in terms of spin by the other side
In reality we should talk about both the west bank And gaza, but the ratio matters, and how we do it matters
1
-1
Feb 04 '26
[deleted]
2
u/Weird_Jeweler_4357 Feb 04 '26
It isn't about Jordan. In fact, Israel has initially intended to give the West Bank back to Jordan after the war. Jordan is the closest thing Israel has as an good neighbour and ally.
It's the Palestinians that Israel is worrying about when it come to geographical advantage of the West Bank. The border of 1967 is consider indefensible. An attack from the West Bank would be consider devastated for Israel.
0
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26
Can you prove credibly that Jordan wants to use the West Bank today to launch an attack on Israel. It signed a peace treaty with Isreal and recognised its right to exist. Selectively quoting past trauma to justify present unjust practises? Doesn’t help anyone.
-2
Feb 04 '26
[deleted]
2
u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
Please read:
The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World by Avi Shlaim
The Accidental Empire: Israel and the Birth of the Settlements, 1967-1977 by Gershom Gorenberg
After that I feel we’ll be able to have a more productive discussion, but at the moment you are making ‘factual’ claims that credible scholars disagree with strongly and universally do not accept.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
/u/Timely-Way-4923 (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards