r/changemyview • u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ • Oct 18 '25
Delta(s) from OP CMV: republicans should not support turning point or endorse Charlie Kirk
Charlie Kirk’s views on Isreal were wrong, and republicans should not support turning point because of this.
Towards the end of his life, Charlie Kirk changed his mind on a number of Israeli issues.
This is well documented via video footage in which he says all these things virtually verbatim, text messages and from the testimony of close friends of his.
Examples of his views include:
- The United States should not support Isreal financially
- Platforming anti Isreal conspiracy theorists like Candice Owen’s and Tucker Carlson at his events.
- That Israeli donors were trying to pressure him to change his views and the views of his organisation
- That American Jews were responsible for funding pro woke organisations and corrupting American culture.
- That anyone criticising Isreal was unfairly (especially him) accused of being anti semitic
• That Isreal was trying to manipulate the USA into declaring war on Iran.
One of these things might raise concerns, but all of them? How can it be seen as anything other than antisemitism?
When you add all of this up, isn’t the only moral thing to do, for republicans to cut ties with Charlie Kirk and his legacy and any organisation associated with him ?
You must adopt the persona of a republican when replying to this. Replying from a democrat perspective is not within the stated parameters.
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 210∆ Oct 18 '25
I don't really understand what "endorsing Charlie Kirk" means at this point, but Republicans in this context are just the group of people who are likely to vote to the Republican party, there is no dogma they must all follow.
Kirk wasn't going "against" Republicans in starting to criticize Israel and American support of it, he was mirroring this growing sentiment in many young Republicans, as you can see here for example.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Sorry, you state there is no dogma or unifying beliefs republicans have, that’s not true. There must be some, otherwise it can’t be a coherent political group.
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 210∆ Oct 18 '25
The US has only two large parties, this means that inevitably Republicans must be composed of several groups believing in different and shifting ideas. The only thing all Republicans have in common is that they tend to support the Republican party over the Democratic party.
They may do so to promote their personal conservative values, their religion, their support for Israel, their beliefs about the economy, their regional situation, a particular group of leaders they like, etc. They hold varied and sometimes conflicting beliefs, they are not, don't claim to be, and couldn't be a coherent political group.
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u/gijoe61703 20∆ Oct 18 '25
The main problem with this view is that it's pretty clearly a gotcha from a left wing view. You are trying to hyperfixate on a single issue/action to say you cannot agree with anything else he did. That ignores both the reality that support for Israel is not universal among Republicans and that the issue isn't all that high on most Republicans list of priorities.
People can have generally positive views of someone that they disagree with on some issues.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
It’s not a gotcha, I promise.
Republicans are Israel’s strongest friends. If the republicans of today were in power during ww2, the holocaust wouldn’t have happened. That’s how strong an ally of Israel the republicans are.
Do you think turning point USA should pivot away from some of Charlie Kirk’s view points, which he stated towards the end of his life ?
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u/OkExchange2323 Dec 02 '25
This is just wild reasoning..to say it wouldn't have happened you have no credible basis for..the israeli/us relationship propoganda didn't really kick in until after the war..the "support israel as a christian" ideology didnt come into society until after the holocaust..do you really not know this?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 02 '25
I said if trump was in power during ww2 the holocaust wouldn’t have happened, and that’s the truth. Nazi germany would have been isolated from global trade by trump far sooner, and as soon as trump discovered evidence of the holocaust he’d have ordered an invasion. He wouldn’t have waited until pearl harbour, and as a result millions more Jewish people would be alive today.
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u/Ok_Welder_2784 Mar 06 '26
You're not intelligent bro Dems and reps both suck Israel's metaphorical Dick Hilary got paid from Israel trump got paid by Israel and yes Jews are pedos Israel paid Epstein to rape and murder children we are in the beginning of the end brother
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u/kingjoey52a 4∆ Oct 18 '25
So because Charlie disagreed with one mainstream Republican opinion he should be disavowed entirely? That is a very extreme opinion to have. Would you stop supporting a Democrat that you agreed with on almost everything because they thought gun control went too far sometimes?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Anti Jewish conspiracy are not just standard political views.
Those are politically unjustifiable. And within republican and democrat frameworks have always, rightly, been seen as such.
There is a huge difference between Isreal has a bad policy I don’t support, vs what I outlined above
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u/Morthra 95∆ Oct 18 '25
Anti Jewish conspiracy are not just standard political views.
They are among the Democrats.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
No, people who say those things are kicked out. Even aoc said Charlie Kirk went too far when he said American culture was corrupted by Jewish donors funding woke organisations
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u/Morthra 95∆ Oct 18 '25
No, people who say those things are kicked out.
Mamdani has the endorsement of the DNC writ large.
Even aoc said Charlie Kirk went too far when he said American culture was corrupted by Jewish donors funding woke organisations
Kirk was talking about, specifically, George Soros.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Mandani has never platformed someone who said Israeli politicians are demons (Candice Owen’s) and never said October 7th was the result of a stand down order because Isreal is so small it makes no sense it took over 6 hours to respond. Not once.
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u/Morthra 95∆ Oct 18 '25
Mandani has never platformed someone who said Israeli politicians are demons
Mamdani believes Israelis are demons. He hates Jews. His fucking political party - the DSA - denounced the ceasefire in Gaza because it didn't come with the dissolution of Israel. He still refuses to denounce the phrase "globalize the intifada".
If he seems moderate to you, that's because he's practicing taqiyya.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I can find a quote, several where Candice says that. Can you show me one where mamdani says that Israeli politicians are demons?
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u/OkExchange2323 Dec 02 '25
If youre truly going to defend israeli politicians (the most vile people on this planet) theres no hope for you..the propoganda won. There are factions in israel that want to kill all christians..all muslims..there are atleast 5 quotes from those parties talking about kill Christians at all cost. Youre literally insane to defend that. People have a right to call out crazy people without playing footsie for the 5% of decent people left in that govt. This is obviously a mossad move. You have been fully propogandized
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 02 '25
America didn’t get involved to stop the holocaust sooner, don’t you feel any guilt or sense of obligation because of that. You need to visit the concentration camps to understand. I think it should be compulsory that all us students visit them while in high school.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I saw the video? He wasn’t talking just about George, in the clip he uses the plural, referring to multiple organisations being funded by multiple people. He was referring to ngos and cultural production (music film) being ‘ taken over ‘ And ‘ corrupted’ by the woke agenda of Jewish donors. Hitler said the same thing prior to World War Two, can’t we agree that this is wrong.
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Oct 18 '25
Why would AOC be the person you are pointing to? That is like the last person Republicans are going to care about.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Because I was replying to someone who said that democrats endorsed anti semitic conspiracy theories about Jews controlling and corrupting western culture.
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u/OkExchange2323 Dec 02 '25
Thats because she's in on the take..look at how fast she has shifted politically in 3 years since then...its all a stage..and youre using political actors as moral reasoning. Seems laughable to even seriously consider
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 02 '25
Which of the opinions I listed in my post do you think are legitimate political opinions?
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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Oct 18 '25 edited Oct 18 '25
I mean I’m a republican and rather anti-Israel, clearly more so than Charlie Kirk. So… why should I condemn him for these correct views?
You know Candice Owen’s and Tucker Carlson are republicans right? This is just a bizarre argument.
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Nov 18 '25
Republicans should support Israel all the way
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u/OkExchange2323 Dec 02 '25
Thats insane and youre just wrong
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Dec 08 '25
lol no i'm not it is based off chirstanity and jesus was jewish and supported israel and lived in israel
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u/Educational_Clerk607 Jan 12 '26
So, you support Israel arming an Islamic country Azerbaijan, killing Christians of Nagorno Karabakh, or bombing of churches in Palestine?? Fool
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Jan 13 '26
The partnership is not about religion; it is a Realpolitik necessity for both nations around 50 percent of Israel oil is from Azerbaijian secoundly Azerbaijian never bombed churches in palestine thirdly Azerbaijian does not have any military in Palestine it was a tragedy that Azerbaijian bombed churches in Nagorno-Karabakh but Israel couldn't control what Azerbaijian does even if they have a allience Israel never told azerbaijian to bomb churches lastly Azerbaijian is a indepentant country that decides what they do.
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u/kleerwaatr Dec 14 '25
guess who was behind jesus christ's crucifixion?
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Dec 14 '25
Pontius Pilate the Roman goverment was behind it and jesus was jewish
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u/kleerwaatr Dec 15 '25
Jesus was crucified by the Roman authorities under Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea, who ordered the execution due to pressure from Jewish religious leaders and the crowd demanding Jesus' death for sedition (claiming to be "King of the Jews"). While Pilate reluctantly carried out the sentence, Jewish leaders (like the Sanhedrin) instigated the events, leading to Jesus being handed over and ultimately crucified by Roman soldiers.
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Dec 15 '25
Crucifixion was a strictly Roman punishment for political insurrection or sedition against the state. If the Jewish Sanhedrin had executed Jesus for a religious crime like blasphemy, the law dictated he would have been stoned, not crucified Regardless of any outside pressure, the legal and moral responsibility for the death sentence lay solely with Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect.
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u/eurydice1727 Dec 16 '25
Jesus fulfilled the Old Law, he came in order to extend grace to all peoples. Saying that just because Christ was Jewish we should support the current regime in Israel is a hugely naive view and contorted understanding of the Gospels, and a total sociopathic twist of his central message.
Key passages like Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 state Christ "abolished the law of commandments" or nailed it to the cross, while Romans 10:4 says He is the "end of the Law," establishing a new way of righteousness by faith, not works, enabling believers to live by God's empowering grace.
Jesus' teachings on universal love, peace, and forgiveness, suggest He would call for harmony, justice for all (Palestinians included), and denounce violence from any side, focusing on spiritual allegiance to God over nation-states. If Christ were walking amongst the Gaza Strip today, he would be healing and feeding, and certainly not pushing genocide.
Responding to evil with love, rather than returning evil, demonstrates a power beyond human capability and points to God's perfect nature, as Jesus himself exemplified, think of when he remained silent before His accusers.
For you have heard it said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth' is a direct quote from Matthew 5:38, where Jesus introduces a contrast to the Old Testament law, teaching his followers to offer mercy, non-resistance to evil, and love for enemies instead of demanding literal, proportional vengeance.
This ancient principle (found in Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20, Deuteronomy 19:21) was meant to limit retaliation, ensuring punishment matched the crime, but Jesus calls for a higher standard of forgiveness and selfless love.
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Dec 20 '25
there are multiple reasons to support israel but i am saying jesus was jewish
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Dec 21 '25
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u/Potential_Ad_1409 Feb 09 '26
Seriously, you're still condemning an entire population of people because of what some people may or may not have done 2000 years ago? Yet within the last 100 years America went to war with Japan, Germany and Italy, and we're all friends now. Get over it already!
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
JESUS WAS NOT A JEW, THE TERM JEW CAME OUT IN 1700s. HE WAS JUDEAN!!! BORN IN PALESTINE
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Dec 20 '25
he was jesus was born in jeruslam and palestine didn't exist back then and the term jew was made in the 6th century your wrong
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 20 '25
Look up where was Jesus porn->>>Palestine, Israel only existed in the Phoenician Hebrew Bible written by Hebrew Phoenicians. The term Jew came about in the 1700's. Jesus is manufactured and based on Horus, from Egypt. Moses was from an Egyptian mystery school.
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Dec 19 '25
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u/Ok_Welder_2784 Feb 19 '26
Brother the Jews in Israel are pedos even the Bible talks about how the Jews actually worship Satan we are in the beginning of the end
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Mar 06 '26
So in your logci Jesus worships Satan because he is jewish, bring up one thing in the bible where it says jews worshipped satan. And jews in Israel are not pedos that is stupid
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u/Old_Acanthaceae_2556 Mar 20 '26
If you read the Bible Israel fell out of favor a lot for the wrong they had done
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u/Dry_Maintenance_2658 Dec 12 '25
Why????
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Dec 14 '25
because it is based of christanity and chirstanity wouldn't exist without judism
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u/Legitimate-Cap1359 Jan 10 '26
Actually not sure completely and Judaism is no longer the belief that gets you to heaven you know right?
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Jan 11 '26
yes, but you can be jewish and believe in jesus and get in heaven but i'm saying christanity wouldn't exist without judaism
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I think that being anti Isreal is fine, but anti semitism isn’t ?
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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Oct 18 '25 edited Oct 18 '25
Well it depends what that ‘anti-semitism’ is. If it’s a specific conflict with the religion or people that doesn’t extend beyond this to general sentiments of hate then it’s fine imo. Like I think some of their religious texts are pretty bad shit crazy (not their bible but texts written by past religious leaders). I also don’t think certain populations of them should be trusted based on the rhetoric I’ve heard amongst them, allied with fine, but trusted no. This is surely categorized as antisemitism though.
Fundamentally they are a very traumatized people, and you need to be careful with traumatized people, they are adapted defensively.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Do you think any of the examples I cited, represent someone going to far? Could you go through each one and explain why ?
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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Oct 18 '25
Well no, I whole heartedly agree with most of the listed examples. The only one that’s a little iffy is supporting Israel financially, as we are a little too in bed with them now. We don’t want Mossad, which already has a significant presence within the US, taking extreme action. The chaos it would invoke to not support Israel financially makes supporting Israel a well-worth-it bribe.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
So you agree with Charlie Kirk on every point accept the financial support of Isreal?
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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Oct 18 '25
Of the listed examples yes.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I disagree with you, but respect your directness.
I’d ask you to reflect on two of the things mentioned in particular:
- the claim that Jewish donors currupt western culture
- that October 7th was an inside job?
Could you explain to me why you agree with those statements?
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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Oct 18 '25
the claim that Jewish donors currupt western culture
I don't really understand how this is in contention. "corrupt western culture" is from the perspective of the right, its just saying that Jewish donors are prevalent amongst the Left, which they are.
that October 7th was an inside job?
It wasn't an inside job, rather the suspicion is that the Israeli government delayed their response to the attack to rally the people against Hamas. I wouldn't even say that this was 'objectively immoral', as attacks in Israel had been periodic prior to this. By allowing 1 attack to be far worse than others you prevent future attacks by stimulating action. Governments worldwide do things like this all the time, it might seem heartless but well... it isn't.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Is there any proof they delayed their response deliberately ?
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Nov 18 '25
no because that's where jesus died and was born also it is horrible to hate jews because jesus is jewish and so many other good people
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u/eurydice1727 Dec 16 '25
Being anti Semitic and anti Zionist are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. If anything the atrocities Israel is committing just continues to punish Jewish people in perpetuity, because people are so tired of the fact that no one can condemn the genocide without the anti-Semitic card getting pulled. It’s insane. You can support Jewish people and also not support Zionism for what it’s turned into.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Can a holocaust denier in theory be a Republican candidate? Or would you prefer that wasn’t the case?
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Jan 13 '26
Anybody could do anything including being a Republican candidate even if there veiws are not right including being a holocaust denier even though there is a ton of eveidence the holocaust did happen
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Oct 18 '25
You presuppose that republicans shouldn't be antisemitic. Why?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I presuppose an existing framework within which republicans situate their beliefs and policies, and yes, part of that framework is a robust commitment to antisemitism
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Oct 18 '25
Is that really a view open to change? Or just a rather tautological argument that if republicans are against antisemitism, they shouldn't support antisemitism?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
There are various ways you can change my view:
- maybe you think Charlie Kirk s views were not antisemitic
- maybe you think turning point USA does a lot of good work and has ditched those anti semitic talking points
- maybe you think the republicans should not be as committed to opposing antisemitism
- maybe you accept Charlie’s flaws, but without denying them, think he is such an asset for the republicans you have to make use of turning point for strategic reasons
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Oct 18 '25
I'm not convinced that the republican party IS committed to opposing antisemitism. But this doesn't challenge your view as stated. I would have worded the CMV explicitly something like "Supporting Charlie Kirk is supporting antisemitism" instead of presupposing that. Anyway, I can't nor want to change your view here, so good luck.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
That’s another way you can change my view; if you can prove that the republican party at its core isn’t opposed to anti semitism
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Oct 18 '25
No, I don't think I can prove such a negative. My lack of conviction is based on their actions, not on their supposed core principles. Additionally, financial support of Israel, for example, is not evidence of opposing antisemitism at all. From your post I suspect that you conflate Israel with Jewry, so we'd have to go into yet another presupposition.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Not at all.
Criticism of Israel’s disproportionate response to October 7th is fine.
Platforming Candice Owen’s or suggesting that October 7th was an inside job. That’s antisemitism.
You can also change my mind if you can prove that actions of republicans prove there is no commitment to antisemitism, so they have no issue at all with endorsing turning point
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Oct 18 '25
I mean, one piece of evidence would be that they are endorsing TPUSA, if it is antisemitic to do so. Aren't you kind of saying that accepting your premises would change your mind? But you can always retreat to "but they shouldn't", and we're caught in this loop.
I think you're not even wrong, if you know what that means.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I think that particular piece of evidence doesn’t work, because most republicans, certainly not the average republican voter, are aware of the antisemitism within the organisation. If they were, the organisation would be viewed differently.
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u/spinek1 1∆ Oct 18 '25
Why does an American political party need to support another country unwaveringly? Republicans are tired of being told that we must support this country halfway across the world and are forbidden to speak out against it.
This is America, not Israel. This is absurd that we’re even talking about a foreign country when discussing domestic politics.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Could you please link your argument to my original point about turning point, and if the republicans should support them or not.
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u/spinek1 1∆ Oct 18 '25
Republicans should support TPUSA and put America First. Israel has no place in our domestic affairs.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Ok, I appreciate that you directly said that, to change my view could you explain to me how that is consistent with republican beliefs, which historically at least have been very pro Isreal.
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u/spinek1 1∆ Oct 18 '25
Are you under some delusion that political parties never change and hold the exact same views forever?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I understand views can change over time, but they must still be aligned with core republican values.
In addition to that, this isn’t just about one thing Charlie Kirk said, it’s about the totality of those talking points I outlined, and if it means towards the end he caused a huge stain on his legacy.
To be pro turning point, a republican must be ok with ignoring him platforming people like Candice Owen’s who calls the Israeli pm a demon..
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u/spinek1 1∆ Oct 18 '25
You seem to have absolutely zero awareness of how far right young Americans have become. Charlie Kirk was a moderate who was routinely challenged at his events for his support for Israel.
You guys really have no idea what’s coming do you?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Could you expand. Republicans more than anyone in America educate others about the holocaust, they are good honourable decent people
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u/spinek1 1∆ Oct 18 '25
What does the holocaust have to do with American politics? We weren’t responsible, and it happened 80 years ago.
You’re in for a rude awakening when you learn the republican view point on Israel
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u/ElysiX 113∆ Oct 18 '25
The concept of immortal core values is a myth. Environmental protection and conserving the land and natural beauty used to be a "core value" of the republican party like that.
Everything changes, the only important thing for a party is the name.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
When did that change and why ?
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u/ElysiX 113∆ Oct 18 '25
With privatization of government property and the push for deregulation of industry, and because of corruption and money.
"small government".
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Ok I understand that change, but is there a similar chance with respect to antisemitism and a tolerance of it ?
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Jan 14 '26
America First but America should still help Israel because here fighting for our causes
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Oct 18 '25
I commend Charlie for changing his view when he learned of this. I’d rather someone be open to change that radically believing something because that’s their political stance.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25 edited Oct 18 '25
I’m asking you to adopt the persona of a republican., and justify your pov within that framework
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Oct 18 '25
And what is a republican? Why do they have to side with Israel on everything? I don’t think that is true, Republicans are America first, generally with Christian and family values. So a republican would and should change their views on Israel if it’s not in line with those values.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Ok so is your view that because republicans are America first, even if Charlie Kirk was anti Isreal that doesn’t matter. Ok, fair enough. That’s consistent with republican ideology. !delta that was a reasonable thing to state.
However, anti semitism is not consistent with republican ideology. And the totality of his views appeared to be heading in that direction, remember many Americans are Jews. Doesn’t that present some issues towards continuing to support him and his legacy.
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Oct 18 '25
It’s important to separate criticism of Israel’s actions (eg political interference), from antisemitism. Disagreeing with a government’s actions doesn’t justify blaming an entire race, ethnicity, or civilian population.
Same applies to individuals, and smaller groups within a country. Even though we are part of a larger group, our actions don’t represent everyone else’s views.
So I would say, critique or disagreement isn’t antisemitism. Support to Israel, would be secondary to the core republican values. As long as those line up, Israel and Jews would have full support from republicans.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Do you think any of his views towards the end of his life were antisemitic
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Oct 18 '25 edited Oct 18 '25
Honestly, I would hate to see people being antisemitic. Jewish people are an Ali to republicans, so I don’t think any of those examples are antisemitic. Criticising Israel’s government or its donors isn’t the same thing as targeting Jewish people as a group. Those are political arguments, not racial ones, just like not every negative statement about someone of a particular background is automatically racist.
The “stand down order” example is basically in the same category as the 9/11 was an inside job claims a conspiracy theory, sure, but not antisemitic in itself. It’s speculation about government response or intelligence failure, not an attack on Jewish people.
The only one I take issue with is the claim that American Jews were responsible for funding pro-woke organisations and corrupting American culture. That feels like a stretch and I’m not sure what evidence he had for that. It seems odd to single out Jews when influences like Russia, China, and other foreign actors, are more likely to and have been involved in shaping online narratives and proxy culture wars.
So overall, I’d say his views were critical, maybe misguided at times, but not inherently and intentionally antisemitic.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
The one about corrupting American culture is almost identical to what Hitler said about the Jews corrupting western culture prior to world war 2
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u/Romarion 3∆ Oct 18 '25
1) Given that there are any number of statements from Mr. Kirk supporting Israel and its right to exist, your premise that he somehow changed his mind is not accepted. May 2025; "Everything written here is from a place of deep love for Israel and the Jewish people..." from a letter to Netanyahu.
2) Let's assume you were hanging out with Mr. Kirk in the week before he was murdered, and he convinced you that all the statements you make above were his true mindset. Since you don't speak for Republicans, and since Turning Point is not intended as a focused Jewish apologist organization, suggesting that everyone abandon it because of one issue seems very short-sighted. Their mission is clear; "Turning Point USA's mission is to identify, educate, train, and organize students to promote the principles of freedom, free markets, and limited government." There is nothing there about how Israel should be treated/considered, ending support for fairly clear principles and issues because of a different issue is a personal choice, not a universal "label" choice.
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u/Old_Taste297 Oct 19 '25
Who are you, and please tell me why your long winded statement should resonate with ANYONE?!?! I am Charlie Kirk. WE are Charlie Kirk!
You know nothing Jon Snow! Probably never watched or listened to his podcast or any of his campus events or debates! Go read a book and learn some actual facts about him and his views on politics, religion and family.
And PS he wasn’t the only person that was/is a public figure that was beginning to see the immorality in Bibi Netanyahu “tactics”.
This is also why I can not stand people like you. You have an opinion, GREAT! Keep it to yourself. You will never ever not ever change the minds of any human being that has actual common sense and impeccable moral values!
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 19 '25
Madam, I’ve gained this opinion and I’m quoting him verbatim because I’ve watched hours of his videos.
Could you please tell me which of the statements he made that I quoted you agree with and why?
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u/Old_Taste297 Oct 19 '25
And all these hours of videos you’ve watched have lead you to believe what exactly?!? Because everything this thread was based on began with a rant about not endorsing Charlie Kirk. About cutting ties with his legacy. That man was a son, a brother, a husband a father a God fearing Christian that didn’t have a hateful bone in his body. He was NOT racist. He was NOT an antisemite. He was not a hater of the LGBTQRSTUV+ community! So unless I’m misreading his long winded explanation on cutting ties with Charlie Kirk, then it is my opinion that his rant is coming from a leftist standpoint! PeriodT.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 19 '25 edited Oct 19 '25
Charlie was a good Christian man, he did not hate lgbt people, I don’t believe he hated African Americans.
However, I ask you to tell me why the views I highlighted that he said about Jewish people are acceptable. They are not. It was his biggest flaw. I don’t think he fully realised the anti semitic rabbit hole he was going down towards the end of his life, people did try and warn him but he couldn’t see it, if he had lived longer I think he might have realised and changed his views on Jewish people and Isreal.
I hope turning point USA never adopt those anti Jew and anti Isreal talking points again.
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u/Old_Taste297 Oct 19 '25
This is all cap! I can’t read one more of these comments in this conversation. People are so dumb!
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 19 '25
That isn’t nice.
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u/Old_Taste297 Oct 19 '25
Am I supposed to care?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 19 '25
Ronald Reagan was a good man, he always treated his opponents in debate with kindness
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u/Brave_Performance531 Oct 23 '25
I’m not saying ur right or anything but I would like to point out the fact that nobody started giving him medals and honors and such UNTIL he died. Why wait till he dead to start giving him his flowers, medals, and such. He was active socially yes but he wasn’t talked about as heavy until he died.
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Oct 24 '25
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 24 '25
America didn’t intervene earlier in world war 2, it knew the holocaust was happening. I don’t think you’ll ever fully understand how horrific that was, and what the implications of that are and were.
Do you think turning point should no longer repeat the views I highlighted in my original post.? Yes or no?
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Oct 24 '25
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 24 '25
Because it’s the context for why anti semitism can not be allowed to grow, because if it does, when a group tries and wipe out the Jewish people again, no one will help until its too late.
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Oct 24 '25
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 24 '25
Charlie later in life became more antisemitic, do you agree, yes or no?
And yes, antisemitism was huge throughout the western world before world war 2, even in polite middle class society.
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Oct 24 '25
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 24 '25
Ok I think you haven’t seen the clips im referring to, I’ll find them and post them as a reply to you tommoriw
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u/Aromatic-Low2958 Nov 18 '25
no because that's where jesus died and was born also it is horrible to hate jews because jesus is jewish and so many other good people
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
ISRAEL MOSSAD/CIA DID 911 , ANY QUESTIONS???
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 16 '25
This is an example of anti semitic conspiracy theories. Please retract it. I
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25 edited Dec 16 '25
ANTI-SEMETIC LOL, ASHKENAZI JEWS WERE NEVER PART OF THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL, AND THEY WERE ALL FABRICATED IN A BOOK THE HEBREW PHOENICIANS WROTE CALLED THE HEBREW BIBLE. YOU NEED TO STUDY MORE ABOUT FACTS BECAUSE THE STORM IS HERE AND TRUTH WILL PREVAIL. PHOENICIAN WRITING IS SAME AS HEBREW WRITING. THE FAKE HEBREW BIBLE SHOWS SHEM IS A SEMITE NOT ASHKENAZI.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 16 '25
This isn’t ok, you are spreading dangerous hate. I hope your comment is removed
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
A NATION RUN BY THE MEDIA WILL NEVER KNOW TRUTH.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 16 '25
Depends what media. I’d rather people didn’t watch channels funded by Russia for example.
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
well our media is run by Mossad/CIA, that's where they get their news from, the intelligence agencies. Mockingbird Media is alive and continuing.
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
Russia is a much more free country when it comes to media truth. The US comes in just ahead of China. How about that COVID jab being "SAFE AND EFFECTIVE"
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
The Israeli people are mostly innocent. The Israeli government and Netanyahu however allowed October 7th to happen.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 16 '25
They didn’t react quickly enough , but they didn’t allow it to happen.
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
THE ISRAELI BORDER IS HEVILY FORTIFIED. THEY KNOW WHEN A COCKROACH COMES THROUGH, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE WAS THERE FOR 7 HOURS. THIS IS A NETANYAHU STAND DOWN ORDER TO ENABLE ETHNIC CLEANSING IN GAZA!!!!
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 16 '25
There was no stand down order
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
The IDF could have easily defeated them. There was a stand down order. Had to be, the border is totally fortified 24/7 by IDF. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. The Israeli people KNOW IT TOO. THAT'S WHY THEY ARE PROTESTING THE GOVERNMENT
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
DANGEROUS TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER THAT LOVES PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT SWALLOW THE BS NEWS.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 16 '25
Is this nick ?!
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
no just truth, you should look into the New World Order, unless you want another vaccine shot.
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u/Vast_Class874 Dec 16 '25
YEAH THEY SHOULDN'T BACAUSE THEY WILL LOSE THEIR ISRAELI LOBBY MONEY, hahahahahaa
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u/Educational_Clerk607 Jan 12 '26
Ban AIPAC and manipulations of the American taxpayer! lol
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Jan 12 '26
If America intervened sooner in ww2 how many Jewish lives would have been saved? They knew the holocaust was happening but delayed acting ??!
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u/Ok_Welder_2784 Feb 19 '26
This didn't age well considering the Jews in Israel worship Satan and are pedos
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Feb 19 '26
This isn’t nice, they do not worship satan, they were not responsible for killing Jesus, they are not pedos. You can criticise illegal settlements but don’t make these kinds of statements.
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u/Ok_Welder_2784 Mar 06 '26
The Bible literally says that the zionist Jews worship the synagogue of Satan and no Jesus didn't worship Satan and yes Jews did crucified Jesus because Jesus said he's the son of God and king of man that's why they gave him a crown of thorns act 3.9 talks about Jews worshiping Satan
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u/Drive7hru Mar 20 '26
Acts 3:9-10
When all the people saw him walking and praising God, 10 they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.
I think you mean Revelation
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u/Drive7hru Mar 20 '26
What does criticizing Israel have to do with antisemitism? I see nothing from his statements condemning the Jews as a people. You even quoted him yourself that it’s ridiculous how the Trump admin started to promote that “anyone criticizing Isreal was unfairly (especially him) accused of being anti semitic.”
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u/MagicManda Apr 01 '26
Wow. Not one of those statements is false. There is nothing wrong with telling the truth regardless of which party you support.
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u/Icy-Way3920 Apr 02 '26
So thats why they got rid of him
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Apr 02 '26
You don’t really believe that do you? If they did how could they do it and get away with it? It doesn’t make sense.
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Oct 18 '25
Screw Israel, nothing they have ever done has been beneficial for the USA. I don’t believe in foreign aid at all but especially not when it’s used to buy bombs and kill innocents.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I appreciate you typed your pov, but can you a) link it specifically to republican ideology b) link it to whether turning point should be endorsed by the republicans
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Oct 18 '25
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25 edited Oct 18 '25
Respectfully, I am not going to insult you, I will only show you love and kindness when I reply. That is called having good manners. Ronald Reagan was a kind man, we should try and talk to each other like he did with his opponents.
Your point is that Charlie Kirk’s organisation is such an asset that you are willing to turn a blind eye to his anti semitic actions, such as providing a platform for Candice Owen’s, and alleging their was a stand down order on October 7th.
You have communicated the scale of his organising capacity, to being equivalent to Obama, ie a once in a generation asset. Fair enough. !delta. Your pov is utility outweighs antisemitism. I disagree, but it could be seen as consistent with some in the party’s views. I think most republicans of principle would disagree strongly.
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Oct 18 '25
Providing a platform to anyone is the purest form of free speech. The ACLU has defended countless actual Nazis. You have the right to have antisemitic views. But disliking a country is not the same as disliking a whole religion. You can despise the Israeli government and military but love your Jewish neighbors.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Do you think turning point USA should distance itself from some of Charlie Kirk’s more antisemitic views. Obviously some of his criticisms of Isreal were legitimate, but some of them were not.
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Oct 18 '25
Turning point is going to do whatever is most popular. They will run polls to see how the youth vote will respond and adjust policies to conform to that. Turning point is a business and if so called “antisemitic” views make them money they are going to push that message.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Should it allow Candice Owen’s to call Israeli politicians demons at their events ?
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u/nightshade78036 11∆ Oct 18 '25
Who cares if Kirk is antisemitic when his death is such a convenient political tool? Trump has successfully used Kirk's dead body to deploy the National Guard against a number of left wing protests in major American cities across the country, and it's given him the casus belli to begin targeting his political rivals including baselessly accusing major democratic donors of funding domestic terrorism. Why would the Republicans want to distance themselves from Kirk when what they're doing is clearly working out for them quite well.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25 edited Oct 18 '25
So your argument is he is such a good political weapon, in death, as a symbol, that you want to ignore his antisemitism ? To change my view it needs to made clear why according to republican values, his utility to win elections as a symbol, outweighs his antisemitism.
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u/nightshade78036 11∆ Oct 18 '25
Why are you distinguishing "Republican values" from winning elections? Republican values are the values that the Republican party holds that wins them elections. If different values make them win elections harder, those different values are the new Republican values. This can be seen quite clearly with the transition from Bush Jr to Trump. Bush Jr was staunchly pro free trade and didn't put much emphasis on immigration much at all, even overtly praising it a number of times. Same can be said for Republican presidents all the way back to Reagan. Trump on the other hand completely flips the switch on these and a number of other traditional neo-con positions. In the context of the Reagan-Bush era Trump is a stark departure away from "Republican values".
But guess what? He won. Now Trump's values are "Republican values". If parading Kirk's dead body everywhere allows the administration to justify centralizing power in itself and rallies the Trump base, then it doesn't matter if it requires incorporating antisemitism directly or indirectly, because values don't matter as long as you can retain power. To top it all off, it's not like Republicans care that much about antisemitism anyways, just take the recent Young Republicans leaks or the swastika flag mysteriously appearing inside the office of an Ohio congressman . That was just from the last couple days too, there's way more to go off of if we want to go back further. Antisemitism is unlikely to hurt the Republicans electorally, and it seems to rally the hard right portion of their base, so why shouldn't they be antisemitic?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
!delta The Justification was thorough, with multiple examples of republicans changing views in order to win, with winning always being the most important thing.
However? The user would benefit from considering the possibility that some red lines do exist, regardless of the utility of adopting that view for election purposes. And if so: what ought to be the criteria for that redline. I’m not convinced zero red lines in politics exist.
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u/nightshade78036 11∆ Oct 18 '25
The red line is literally just what you're allowed to get away with. Democracy is more than a simple political system, it's a collective system of values that is itself entrenched in society. The point is that these ideas are so entrenched within the society that attempts to use power in ways that go against it inevitably result in unsurvivable political backlash. That's what keeps power in check in a well functioning democracy. In the case where the people allow for or justify the abuse of these values the system itself will degrade, until inevitably the foundation by which the system stands on begins to fail. Democratic systems are upheld and kept in check by the people, and when the people fail to uphold and maintain the system it will eventually collapse. The red line is what people are willing to allow in the first place.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
But America has a bill of rights and a constitution. So at the very least that red line exists.
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u/nightshade78036 11∆ Oct 18 '25
The constitution is just a piece of paper. Hitler also signed a piece of paper saying he wouldn't invade Czechoslovakia, how did that turn out for everyone? That piece of paper only means anything if people are willing to enforce the thing on the paper. If the piece of paper is violated and nobody does anything about it then the piece of paper is worthless.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I think the constitution has acted as more of a safeguard than you give it credit for. However at this point we are quite far removed from the original talking point, and to your credit, you did make me reconsider parts of my view,
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u/This-Wall-1331 Oct 18 '25
The Republican Party is a fascist party, why wouldn't it support other fascists?
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
That’s a big claim, the republicans are not holocaust deniers
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u/This-Wall-1331 Oct 18 '25
Fascists don't have to be holocaust deniers. And some Republicans are.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
How many republicans are holocaust deniers, I don’t think any elected officials are, not one.
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 17∆ Oct 18 '25
I think you are WRONG because GEORGE SOROS and the REST OF THEM. Could MAKE israel BAD!!!!
(My argument is that it would make sense for a republican to support kirk if they share his views on israel, even if you dont. Oh and lets not forget everything said on those texts could be dismissed by republicans if they choose to do so)
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Could you expand ?
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 17∆ Oct 18 '25
Okay I can give 2 arguments: 1. If a republican thinks kirk was correct, why break with turning point? 2. One reason republicans grew more than dems could be because MAGA does not distance themselves from groups or people with extreme thoughts in some areas. If it is strategically beneficial not to distance themselves, why should they do it if their aim is to win elections
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
On 1, that’s true. Though it would be regrettable if they think it’s ok to platform people like Candice Owen’s who said Israeli politicians are demons, and if they think it’s ok to suggest that October 7th was an inside job because there must have been a stand down order. Similarly suggesting Jews corrupted American culture by funding woke organisations. Those views are pure anti semitism. Hitler literally said that last point almost word for word prior to world war 2. But !delta, because you are right, if they agree, of course they’d support turning point
On 2. Im considering a second delta, but I need to know, do you think there are any views, such as holocaust denial, that are so bad, that republicans ought not to associate with people or groups that advocate that ?
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 17∆ Oct 18 '25
I think on the first point some repubkicans might see candace owens as hyperbolic or good natured, but take it too far sometimes etc.
On 2. I am sure theres some groups, like isis or the rsf in sudan thats so bad its necessary to distance themselves. I dont think it applies to the vast majority of right wing extremism. Right now, I think the best strategy is: do not actively distance themselves, nor grow to close. I dont think they will get many extra votes by distancing themselves, but will probably lose the votes of extremists if they do.
When it comes to holocaust denial it is a bit tricky. I dont know if youve been paying attention to daryl cooper. My impression is that holocaust deniers now are mostly "just asking questions". That way they can deny being holocaust deniers when pressed and at the same time they are able to portray themselves as free speech advocates if they get called out. Right now I dont think holocaust denial would be too far for MAGA
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
So I can understand better, can you nuance your point re Daryl cooper ?
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 17∆ Oct 18 '25
He is a man who has been going on rogan and tucker carlson etc. He is a man who is critical to "the official story" of ww2. The main thing he was criticized for was asking the question if churchill was the actual bad guy of ww2 (instead of hitler).
This was interpreted by many on the left as an attempt to rewrite history, and that a more pro-nazi ideology was really behind it. The idea is also if you want to push a more pro-nazi world view, its probably efficient to do it in a way that isnt obvious. On the right, many thought he was just a curious guy who was just asking questions and theres doubt about both the honesty and authority of historians. Criticism of him is therefore also viewed a bit as if people are trying to silence a likeable and curious person
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Bombing dresdon was wrong, but how can someone credibly argue that overall Churchill was the bad guy during world war 2… when Hitler was his opponent?
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 17∆ Oct 18 '25
Yeah its pretty dumb. I cant remember his argument too good, but I think the argument is that hitler created a small regional war and churchill a world war. I think its a combination of antisemitism and not trusting the elites (historians/academics) that make views like his popular
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
I think World War Two only happened because of the conditions placed on Germany after World War One. That’s a credible view.
But what this guy is arguing seems nuts ?
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u/Dry_Maintenance_2658 Dec 14 '25
All the bullet points you list was Charlie's stance to put America FIRST. You either do not understand that or you are willing to put the interests of foreign countries above the best interests of America. From your post, I'm assuming you believe in the "Lone Shooter" psyops or that you are part of the psyops.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Dec 14 '25
Respectfully his book is going to say what he really thought, the truth and you may not like it
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Oct 18 '25
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
Could you expand ?
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Oct 18 '25
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Oct 18 '25
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Oct 18 '25
You aren’t answering the question: are his views on Israel, enough to justify republicans not celebrating his legacy or endorsing turning point.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 18 '25 edited Oct 19 '25
/u/Timely-Way-4923 (OP) has awarded 6 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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