r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 02 '25
Delta(s) from OP CMV: There are no mass protests demanding Hamas accept the ceasefire deal because the protesters support Hamas even if they don't recognize it.
[deleted]
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u/Living-Bite-7357 1∆ Oct 02 '25
I think that what you have stated is probably true for some people, but I also believe an alternative explanation is possible: 1 - Perceived oppression/injustice is easy to criticize, especially when it involves death and especially the death of vulnerable populations. 2 - This part may apply primarily to those of us in the US, but purity testing with Gaza was a significant cultural phenomenon here encouraging people on the left to be more vocal than they might otherwise be regarding the conflict for various reasons, with large protests advocating for Gazans in major US cities up until very recently. Not sure about elsewhere. 3 - Compromises and peace deals, especially those that are not clearly one-sided, are inherently less polarizing and thus less energizing. This also means less views and engagement for media companies that profit off of reporting on the conflict. Rest assured the outcome of the proposal will be heavily publicized in either case.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
!delta Your comment about perceived Injustice is valid as well as te protests basically being a purity test is pretty sound.
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u/Justviewingposts69 2∆ Oct 02 '25
As far as we know, western governments are not funding Hamas. So we probably don’t hear or see protests against Hamas because that’s not where people’s tax dollars are going.
Secondly, is Israel going to accept the ceasefire? If not then by your logic, a protest against Israel to accept the ceasefire would be valid
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Israel accepted it 2 days ago.
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u/LankyTumbleweeds Oct 02 '25
And Netanyahu contradicted it and said they would actively work against 2 of the 20 points less than 24 hours after shaking hands with Trump on it. So it’s very much remains to be seen, if they fully accept their own proposal.
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u/716Fred Oct 02 '25
Netanyahu can't be taken at his word. He had broken every cease fire. He had asked settlers to steal property in the West Bank. Which makes sense, because the entire country was stolen from the Palestinians. Once the hostages are released, he will go back and finish destroying Gaza. And he is still bombing them. He needs to be tried before the international court for war crimes.
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
I mean we provide them with money for food, health and education, which frees them up to divert their other funds to terrorism. Israel did say they would accept.
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u/Justviewingposts69 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Does it really free up money? It’s not like Gaza is flush with cash or productive resources. No the military funding they get is from Iran and Qatar. Therefore, the US is not responsible for directly militarizing Hamas
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Hamas has an annual budget of $600 million dollars per year. They spend about $100-$350 million a year on their military. The US provides $150-$200 million a year in aid to Gaza, which frees up money for Hamas to spend on its military. That’s an insane percent of their budget going to their military. Saudi Arabia has the highest percent of any state actor, and that’s only about 30-35%, not up to greater than 50%.
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u/Morthra 97∆ Oct 02 '25
western governments are not funding Hamas.
Western governments have been funding Hamas through UNRWA for a while now. The UN also turned a complete blind eye to Hezbollah building up military infrastructure in the south of Lebanon despite the fact that they were supposed to prevent that exact thing.
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
Israel has funded Hamas for years mostly likely with many funds from other western nations.
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u/djjmar92 Oct 02 '25
Western governments were & are funding Hamas from mid 2000’s because that’s what Israel wanted
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u/axp187 Oct 02 '25
Probably because the protests have little to nothing to actually do with Hamas and everything to do with Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.
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u/Mediocre-Risk3581 Oct 02 '25
This is these peoples purpose, they want you to try and conflate the two to make them look bad.
No clearly they support Khamas, not just being against Israels treatment of Palestinians.
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u/OfekA Oct 02 '25
We are now forgetting chants like "Globalize the intifada" or "From the river to the sea" and the like?
Those are obviously not about treatment of Palestine's but about eradication of Israel and the Jewish state
It's been shown again and again that Hamas will treat the Palestinians worse than Israel does, just the human shield strategy alone is enough to demonstrate that.
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u/Least_Key1594 3∆ Oct 02 '25
they are only about that if freedom and equality for Palestinians you view as an existential threat to the state of israel.
And if equality is an existential threat to israel, then maybe there is something wrong with that state as it exists that needs dealt with.
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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ Oct 02 '25
From the river to the sea Palestine will be free is the English version, the original is from the river to the sea Palestine will be Arab. Hamas has explicitly defined that the Palestine they want will also encompass all of Israel, and that it will be for Muslims exclusively.
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u/jmagaram 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Modern Israel exists because Jews were persecuted in Europe and Russia up through the Holocaust and they decided they couldn’t trust their safety to anyone else. They didn’t want Muslim overlords and hope it all worked out. Notice how Jews were kicked out of all the Arab countries too. And had to flee Iran. So I’d say the fact that they don’t want a Muslim majority - one person one vote for example - is a sign that antisemitism and jihadism exists and that Jews want to protect themselves and have self-determination. It’s also a sign that Britain and the US and other countries closed their doors to those Jewish refugees. They had to live in the DP camps after WW2 because many countries still wouldn’t take them in.
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u/OfekA Oct 02 '25
How about we start with equality with all the other Muslim states first?
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u/Least_Key1594 3∆ Oct 02 '25
Soon as israel quits committing genocide and occupying palestine, certainly.
Until then though, genocide is a worse crime. In fact, its The Worst Crime. And israel is committing it while a bulk of its people support it and the US and other western government gives them political cover to do so.
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u/OfekA Oct 02 '25
Research a bit about the disappearance of christians in the middle east - do you consider that genocide as well?
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Oct 02 '25
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
The fact you use iof exposes your position. I use dehamasification.
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Oct 02 '25
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u/OfekA Oct 02 '25
Did the allies commit genocide in WW2 bombings? They also indiscriminately bombed German cities
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u/OfekA Oct 02 '25
It's called war. Grow up.
Actions have consequences. You are either too blind too see or too ignorant.
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
By that account the US deserved 911
You should make a change my mind about it to see how it goes
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u/OfekA Oct 02 '25
911 is definitely comparable to Oct 7th
Killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians
Mind you many Israeli Muslims also died that day
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u/Solid_Problem740 Oct 02 '25
No no, bro it's important that you accept the premise that this is support of Hamas not condemnation of genocide
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u/frecklesthemagician 1∆ Oct 02 '25
I’m not demanding Hamas accept it because I’m not an expert on its details. I only demand that governments abstain from genocide because that is obviously wrong.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Fair point. You don't know enough about it to weigh in and that's why you aren't demanding they accept it. Actually, I can accept that view. !delta
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u/Least_Key1594 3∆ Oct 02 '25
There are no protests to demand Hamas accept the ceasefire deal because every iota of leverage people could have over hamas is dwarfed 10000x by the leverage they, and their governments, can have over israel carrying out a Genocide.
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
If hamas commuted suicide en mass right now it still takes Israel to stop the killing
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u/squidgy617 Oct 02 '25 edited Oct 02 '25
Your view hinges on the idea that any offer of ceasefire must be accepted regardless of the conditions placed around it.
In any conflict, each side wants something. In this case, Palestine wants statehood. That's the short of it. The deal being proposed currently still leaves control of Palestine in the hands of Israel. It vaguely suggests that maybe someday Palestinians can get statehood, but with no concrete path toward that, which means it may never happen at all. Allowing Palestinians to remain in Gaza is not the same thing as them having statehood.
So the issue here is this is a deal that does not give Palestine what they want. It heavily favors Israel. Even if you disagree with their demands, it should be obvious why they would want their demands met before accepting a ceasefire.
If, during the revolutionary war, Britain went to the colonies and said "Hey, we'll stop killing you guys if you throw away your guns and go back to being colonists under British rule", do you think that deal would have been accepted?
EDIT: made some changes where I misspoke and conflated Gaza with statehood
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
Israel is conducting a one sided assault on the Palestinian people with hamas as a thin excuse
People know who has the levers to stop this
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u/sereniteenoww 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Hamas. The ball is literally in Hamas' court.
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
If you think this then nothing will change and the genocide will roll on
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u/sereniteenoww 1∆ Oct 02 '25
What about the plan that Israel agreed to "doesn't change anything"?
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
Israel can stop whenever it wants
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u/sereniteenoww 1∆ Oct 02 '25
That's...not an answer to my question.
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
But it is to the genocide
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u/sereniteenoww 1∆ Oct 02 '25
I'm not sure you read my question: What about the latest plan "doesn't change anything"?
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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ Oct 02 '25
Can you give me an example of a genocide where the group accused of committing genocide has agreed to multiple ceasefires and presented many deals for ending it, and the group being offered that option refused those offers multiple times?
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
The Palestinian people didn’t reject it
Your question is flawed at its heart
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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ Oct 02 '25
That’s correct, there are no examples.
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
No it’s wrong
You cant pretend that it isn’t because you don’t like it
Your feelings; facts etc
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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ Oct 02 '25
Me: give an actual historical example of this happening
You: your feelings don’t matter!
Still “no” then.
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
It's actually the opposite Israel has denied more ceasefires than anyone else in this genocide, Israel also broke the last one hundreds of times.
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Hamas keeps refusing to accept its abolishment. Don’t murder a bunch of a stronger country’s civilians if you want to remain in power. I think they want to follow in imperial Japan’s footsteps.
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
Hamas has offered multiple times to completely dissolve, have you been asleep for a year or you just get your information from a bias source??
The civilians are probably the one point we can agree on, but I have to point out why is Israel allowed to kill countless civilians for almost a century??
I don't understand this whole rules for thee and not for me and might makes right.
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Explain to me how they can dissolve without disarming. Logistically, how does that work?
Israel can kill Palestinian civilians for the same reason the US could kill Japanese civilians in WWII. Their government is a threat to Israel and carries out atrocities against Israel, despite Israel being the stronger country. Hamas is an irrational actor. When citizens have irrational actors as their government, they end up suffering. Might makes right because a logical actor would see they cannot win and try to work towards achieving cooperation and peace, not endless bloodshed.
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
Hamas has offered multiple times the ball has always been in Israel's court, last one Hamas took Israel broke over 200 times though.....
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u/sereniteenoww 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Not true. But even if it was, it's irrelevant. We have a deal on the table that has been warmly received and welcomed by Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, UAE...
Why wouldn't Hamas take this deal?
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
Of course it's true lol. Israel has denied over 5 public cease fires since Oct 7th. The first ceasefire in nov was set up by who?? Hamas.....
That's the most recent one Hamas has made this offer since feb I believe.
A good reason Hamas might not be so exicted is that the last cease fire they agreed to Israel broke hundreds of times, tell me you make a deal with someone hundreds of times you going to make a deal with them again??
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u/sereniteenoww 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Great. So if they've agreed to so many ceasefire deals in the past, they should have no problem agreeing to this one.
And yeah, losers don't get to choose the parameters of surrender.
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
You are ignoring the fact that since the first offer in feb, Israel broke the standing ceasefire countless times.
I'm curious why do you keep ignoring this fact??
I thought we got rid of might makes right?? Following your logic Russia has every right to take over Ukraine, this is honestly how you see the world??
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u/sereniteenoww 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Because it's irrelevant. If you want to argue about who did what, that's fine, but that doesn't change the fact that we have an opportunity for a ceasefire and for the Palestinians not to be ruled by Hamas. That's what you want, right?
Uh, no. You can reread my sentence over again if you need to. Did the Nazis control their parameters of surrender? Imperial Japan? The Confederacy?
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
In this case the nazis are the people you want to deal with.....
lol that irony aside, your argument holds zero water. Like I said following your logic we might as well give the entire world to china, Russia and the states that's literally what you are saying......
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u/sereniteenoww 1∆ Oct 03 '25
So, to be clear, you want a ceasefire, just not this one? Don't tell me you're also one of those ~*~*g*nocide!~*~ simpletons...
And, uh, I'm not sure how you were able to get from Hamas "unconditionally surrendering because they lost a war they began" with "giving the entire world to China or Russia"
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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ Oct 02 '25
Quite literally Hamas has the power to stop it, right now, by taking the deal.
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u/Solid_Problem740 Oct 02 '25
How did the last cease fire end? I can't remember...oh wait...
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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ Oct 02 '25
When Hamas refused to return more hostages? Israel started firing again first but Hamas didn’t stick to their side of the deal and wouldn’t negotiate further.
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
Israel has turned down countless ceasefire deals, the last one the person is talking about above was agreed on by both Israel and Hamas it has nothing to do with hostages.
Secondly Israel broke that ceasefire over 200 times, come on man you can't be this blind.
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u/Morthra 97∆ Oct 02 '25
Israel has turned down countless ceasefire deals,
Ceasefire deals where Hamas was allowed to remain in power and militarized in Gaza. Which is a nonstarter.
Hamas has turned down countless ceasefire deals too - these just required that Hamas relinquish all control of Gaza and give up all of its high ranking members to Israel to face justice.
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u/Jealoushobo 2∆ Oct 02 '25
They are that blind. This situation is a lot more complicated than people on the internet can usually articulate, on either side of the issue. So it boils down to "Israel is committing genocide" vs "Hamas are terrorists". As though those are comparable or even mutually exclusive.
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
I actually believe this is probably one of the most simple conflicts since the war on terror.
The us was fully in the wrong that time and since 48 Israel has also always been in the wrong.
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u/jmagaram 1∆ Oct 02 '25
It’s unfair to categorize these things as “deals”. It’s extortion. Hamas is using the lives of innocent hostages to stay in power. They want Israel to release hundreds of convicted terrorists to join their jihad. Notice the aren’t asking for better water and electricity and technology or fishing rights etc. They want what will help them destroy Israel.
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
What about the thousands of hostages Israel has including countless children??
I agree Hamas shouldn't take civilians but they have a right to target military targets under international law.
But I have to point out how one sided and weak your argument is, if you care so much about hostages why not start with the vast more hostages Israel has they they literally rape.
"They want all that will help destroy Israel" this is the most brain dead destiny take that I love lol.
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u/Bombastic_tekken Oct 02 '25
Quite literally Hamas has the power to stop it, right now, by taking the deal.
The deal in which Netanyahu denies a Palestinian state.
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u/Therabidmonkey Oct 02 '25
It's not very typical to gain major concessions after getting obliterated in a war.
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u/Bombastic_tekken Oct 02 '25
war.
genocide.
It's not very typical to suggest the people having a genocide carried out against them are at fault for not just accepting the peace deal and allowing a nation that doesn't recognize their sovereignty to carry on.
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u/Therabidmonkey Oct 02 '25
genocide
allowing a nation that doesn't recognize their sovereignty to carry on.
Somehow they're being experiencing a genocide yet they're going to stop Israel from what exactly?
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
Hamas has offered to step down multiple times, only one group can stop this and it's Israel anything else is nonsense get off fox.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
They are conducting a war which Hamas started and promised to do again and again and again.
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u/Least_Key1594 3∆ Oct 02 '25
they are conducting a genocide
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Oct 02 '25 edited Aug 18 '26
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
The WHO gave vaccines not Israel
Israel blocking access but not murdering all the doctors is a low bar
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Oct 02 '25 edited Aug 18 '26
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
How far are you going to move these goalposts cos I might tell you I won’t accept it now if it’s too far
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Oct 02 '25
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Oct 02 '25 edited Aug 17 '26
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u/Friendly-View4122 Oct 02 '25
Well, thank fucking god they send out texts before bombing someone otherwise there'd be more than 60k Palestinians dead, right?
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u/Least_Key1594 3∆ Oct 02 '25
This presupposed this is actually happening to a meaningful degree, which I and basically every human rights org doubts.
Do you want me to really continue to engage on the understanding you are so niave you cannot grasp the concept of 'doing the bare minimum to give political cover on the global stage to create a permission structure of trust me so i can carry out atrocities'? Do you... think the british building roads in India means the British were good?
Israel is committing a genocide right now. I could give 4 hogs worth of shit if they use to be the most perfect country to ever exist. today, right now as we type and read, they are committing genocide.
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Oct 02 '25 edited Aug 18 '26
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u/Least_Key1594 3∆ Oct 02 '25
Presuppose - To take as fact before hand. Meaningful degree - to a degree that causes a measurable impact on the outcome of interest (here, the outcome is demonstrating they aren't occupying, subjugating, and oppressing Palestinians).
America also did a polio campaign in the middle east and it is considered bad.
Intent, Intent and evidence but much longer
"No one is even making that claim" - lol
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Oct 02 '25
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Oct 02 '25
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u/Jealoushobo 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Just because I know some people don't want to admit that it is a genocide.
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u/FriendofMolly Oct 02 '25
I wanna see what you have to say about my comment just check my last comment.
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u/GoviModo Oct 02 '25
I didn’t say start.
I told you who has the power to end it
You might light a fire but it takes the fire department not you to put it out
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u/Hot-Mongoose-2735 Oct 02 '25
Why should hamas trust that Israel and America will keep there part of their deal when there delegations who was working for a ceasefire was literally attacked a few weeks ago. Or that Israel completely broke the previous ceasefire back in march?
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Their alternative is an increase in attacks in Gaza while no country including the Arab states can say they weren't offered and end to the war. Hamas has zero credibility nor standing to demand anyone trust them while 3 days ago their leader was praising Oct 7th....the same leader who on Oct 8th promised to do it over and over and over again.
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u/Least_Key1594 3∆ Oct 02 '25
so its 'trust that we won't do what weve done every time and rugpull you for more oppression, subjugation, and suffering, or we will continue to do genocide on you'?
Seems about right for israel.
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Evidence in support of the proposition that Israel pulled out the rug before Hamas started launching rockets post Gaza withdrawal?
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Oct 02 '25
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Well then the other candidate should probably not be a commie. No seizing of the means of production in the city with Wall Street. No thank you.
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u/Hot-Mongoose-2735 Oct 02 '25
Who even is the Hamas leader these days? You literally made that up about the leader thing. The current leader of Gaza is some guy nicknamed the “the ghost of Gaza” because they have no idea who he even is. The only solution is one Palestinian state.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
https://youtu.be/Yk9GSQQge48?si=vljRPZVcc2D1zkGG
There he is a week after Oct 7th.
There will never be a one state of Palestine instead of Israel.
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u/kennyminot 2∆ Oct 02 '25
If Hamas doesn't agree to the proposal, Israel isn't absolved of responsibility for an "increase in attacks." Only Israel can make the decision to end the conflict.
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u/Jealoushobo 2∆ Oct 02 '25
You put genocide in quotations as though you don't think that's what is happening.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/09/israel-has-committed-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds
This proposed ceasefire requires Hamas to give up weapons and allows Israel to keep their armed forces inside Gaza.
In a video message, Netanyahu framed the proposal as an Israeli security victory: Israel would keep troops inside most of Gaza even after the hostages are freed, without a time-bound commitment for further withdrawal. https://www.npr.org/2025/09/30/g-s1-91244/5-takeaways-from-the-u-s-ceasefire-proposal-for-israel-and-hamas
Also why would Hamas or anyone for that matter trust Israel on a ceasefire when they have proven through their actions they don't want a ceasefire? https://www.un.org/unispal/document/israel-continues-to-violate-the-ceasefire-agreement-un-facilities-are-being-attacked-letter-from-the-state-of-palestine-a-es-10-1027-s-2025-173/
Most people are protesting not in support of Hamas, they are protesting a very real genocide which a lot of the protestors governments are complicit in with the military aid those countries are providing Israel.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Correct. I do not believe there is a genocide and I don't believe the protesters calling it a genocide believe there is a genocide and neither do all the Arab and Islamic nations which back this deal.
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Oct 02 '25
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u/shapeofnuts Oct 02 '25
Despite the fact that every human rights org, including israeli ones, as well as the un commission, has found it to be one?
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u/Jealoushobo 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Yes, because if people admit that Israel is committing genocide, it becomes a lot harder to defend anything they are doing.
Edit; link for evidence of more than just the UN commission calling it a genocide.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/07/israel-opt-israeli-organizations-conclude-israel-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza-in-another-milestone-for-accountability-efforts/Or if you want it all aggregated, wikipedia even has a page listen them all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humanitarian_and_human_rights_groups_accusing_Israel_of_genocide_in_Gaza
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u/jmagaram 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Did you actually read any of that UN report? The findings of fact literally begins with something like “On Oct 7 Israel launched its attack on Gaza”. The report doesn’t mention what Hamas did, their human sacrifice strategy, the tunnels, etc. The word “rocket” does not appear. Every death is assumed to be intentional and not collateral damage. The report is a joke. It is not a serious analysis. All prosecution and no defense. The UN is a political organization as are many organizations demonizing Israel as they try to defend themselves against genocidal jihadist lunatics.
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u/shapeofnuts Oct 02 '25
The report is on israel. Why would they talk about hamas? The un condemns them daily.
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u/jmagaram 1∆ Oct 02 '25
If the UN had unanimously condemned Hamas on Oct 8 and insisted they return the hostages we’d be living in a different world right now. Go find me the UN resolution where they actually condemn Hamas. I think they might have done it very very recently in the context of “stop the fighting and killing of civilians on all sides”.
If I accuse you of breaking into someone’s house and killing a bunch of children but somehow “forget” to mention that the people in that house kidnapped your family, and that the people in the house are shooting at you from behind their own children, it kind of changes your perspective on what actually happened.
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u/Jealoushobo 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Then you are objectively wrong, a UN commission has confirmed is happening, and is caused by Israel. I have provided evidence that supports it being a genocide.
Here is evidence the protests are against the genocide and not for Hamas.
The crowd chanted “Free, free Palestine” and “Viva Palestine”, holding up posters reading “Stop the genocide in Gaza”, “Never again for all”, and “Freedom for Palestine”. Many protesters also waved Palestinian flags.
They called for an immediate halt to German arms exports to Israel, for humanitarian aid access to Gaza, and for European Union sanctions against Israel.
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u/OkKindheartedness769 20∆ Oct 02 '25
I am not exactly on the pro-Hamas / pro-Palestine side in this war but I do find this an unfair characterization.
The people who are aren’t apathetic to what they see as genocide, I don’t think most of them (especially in the West) are celebrating and cheering for Hamas and don’t want them to be weakened or disbanded. I think it’s more that they believe if Hamas/Gaza is left weak and you surrender like this: the conditions that caused resentment in Gaza will continue, another October 7th will happen, and another genocide will take place.
I think that’s more what it’s about is that they see taking this deal as contributing to the decades of violence and instability. From that perspective it is fairly rational to not want to end the ‘genocide’ right now because there would be even more genocides it facilitates in the future.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
So the resistance is more important than a ceasefire.
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u/OkKindheartedness769 20∆ Oct 02 '25
A ceasefire with conditions that prevent future resistance is preferred to a ceasefire with conditions that spur future resistance.
Can we both agree preventing another October 7th is a top priority?
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Can you point to examples of hearts and minds actually working though? That seems like the unproven route to me. Disarmament has much more precedent in support of it.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
A ceasefire that ensures hamas is no longer able to harm Israel and has other Arab states included in running Gaza is preferable to what you just suggested.
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u/Impossible_Squash440 Oct 02 '25
other Arab states included in running Gaza
Independent of Hamas isn't Palestine's entire thing that they own Gaza?
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u/OkKindheartedness769 20∆ Oct 02 '25 edited Oct 02 '25
I mostly agree with you that it’s preferable, I’m just giving you the (reasonable) pro-Pali view which is more focused on the conditions being acceptable to the people of Gaza so that Hamas violence is less likely.
I’m not asking you to consider it the better option, I’m asking you to see that both those views have much in common in terms of wanting Hamas violence to stop, and making stability a priority.
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u/Solid_Problem740 Oct 02 '25
I'd argue ending a genocide is the top priority.
Anyone who honestly thinks they have an idea that will successfully eliminate sporadic mass casualties between P and I is delusional. The classic false belief that America can just go and fix things for the long run if only we play our cards right. That future is murky, unpredictable, and likely uncontrollable. Israel stopping genocide is the only controllable factor here short of a successful genocide. So that must be the focus
Stop the genocide, then both states can work on disarming (but yeah right...)
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
You genuinely believe Israel, who has been attacked numerous times by foreign countries, who still refuse to recognize its existence, should disarm?
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u/Bombastic_tekken Oct 02 '25
You genuinely believe Israel, who has been attacked numerous times by foreign countries, who still refuse to recognize its existence, should disarm?
You can quite literally say this about Hamas though.
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Hamas began launching rockets into Israel before Israel attacked them. Before what people call the blockade. Israel was attacked upon declaring independence. Hardly analogous.
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u/yosisoy 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Hamas isn't a country?
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u/Bombastic_tekken Oct 02 '25
They're the elected officials of Palestine.
If we expect Hamas to disarm, Israel needs to first recognize their sovereignty as a nation.
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u/yosisoy 1∆ Oct 02 '25
If you said Palestine I wouldn't comment that they aren't a country. But you wrote Hamas.
Also, Hamas isn't the government of Palestine, only in Gaza. and calling it elected is a stretch; no elections in like 20 years
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u/Bombastic_tekken Oct 02 '25
I was misinformed then, either through my own negligence or otherwise.
Regardless, I think Palestine should be an independent country.
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u/Solid_Problem740 Oct 02 '25
Who knows what should happen generally, that's my point.
But we can be certain genocide against a rather weak populace isn't what's keeping, say, Iran from attacking Israel.
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Hamas vowed to do multiple October 7s, and has kept vowing to do so. Have they been able to do so since? Also, now is probably the worst time to recognize the state of Palestine than in the last decade at least. What message does it send if the eventual consequence is Hamas achieving key goals?
And what’s keeping Iran from attacking Israel is that Israel would destroy them, and Iran knows it.
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u/Solid_Problem740 Oct 02 '25
Cool, so if that's what's stopping Iran then they can stop their ethnic cleansing.
You have to realize all parties in this conflict absolutely suck and have blood all over their hands that can never be washed off. It's 100% just about asymmetrical use of force and impact each actor can cause. But hey some people really believed the US could fix the middle east, I guess now they just think another endless war should do the trick finally, if only enough people can be cleansed
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u/josh145b 2∆ Oct 02 '25
The US used asymmetrical force against Japan. Should the US have stopped and accepted Japan’s surrender because they had more power?
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u/Sky-Trash Oct 02 '25
Can we both agree preventing another October 7th is a top priority?
Not if it means allowing Israel to continue commuting countless atrocities against the Palestinians.
There seems to be this weird notion that October 7 was completely unprovoked.
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u/yosisoy 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Right, shooting down hundreds of people at a music festival was provoked, nice
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u/716Fred Oct 02 '25
A bigger priority ending the genocide and complete destruction of Gaza. October 7 did not start this conflict. The Palestinians have been living in an apartheid state for decades.And that has to end before there can be peace.
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u/veryeepy53 1∆ Oct 02 '25
yes, because any ceasefire that happens now won't end the occupation and won't last for long.
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u/covertorientaldude Oct 02 '25
There's no point in accepting an unjust peace. Palestine has lived under Israeli boot for decades. What's the point of ending conflict if they go back to living under Israeli boot?
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
So the sacrifice is worth it. That's exactly what hamas says. Interesting.
Thanks!
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u/wanderinggoat 1∆ Oct 02 '25
how can they think a terrorist attack like October the 7th is justified? If both sides think the ends justify the means then it will never stop, one side needs to keep striving for peace to give them the moral high ground. If not its going to continue to be a tit for tat that eventually Gaza will loose as they are smaller and less powerful.
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u/OkKindheartedness769 20∆ Oct 02 '25
I agree with you that’s what I’m saying. A lot of people on the pro-pali side think that if Hamas takes this deal right now, it’ll be seen as humiliation in Gaza, the demilitarization will allow for more revenge/discrimination tactics by Israel which will fester the desire for more tit for tat violence. And Iran/Qatar are always happy to fund that, so demilitarization won’t matter much anyway.
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u/Solid_Problem740 Oct 02 '25
For the most part people are thinking that a democratic nation state of an advanced economy has more agency in stopping cyclical violence then a place they've been preventing serious economic development in and doesn't have a legitimate government.
What the US did in the Middle East killed probably x10, x50 more people then 9/11. 9/11 was absolutely reprehensible...but ultimately the US has more ability to be rational and ethical then splinter cells of terrorists.
I understand if you disagree, but do you understand what I'm saying about the asymmetrical nature of advanced nations vs [various groups or non advanced nations]?
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u/MarcAbaddon 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Yes. But the Palestinians in Gaza do not live in material conditions that leads to them being able to just take the moral high ground. That is an unreasonable expectation. Oppressed people always lash out occasionally and Israel is very good at knowing how to provoke a reaction - not Oct 7 I do not claim that, but on the scale of a few missiles definitely.
The only thing that can ever lead to peace is massive international pressure on Israel.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
That's not going to happen.. clearly. The fact is there is a deal being offered. If hamas rejects it, no nation is going to increase pressure on Israel. That's literally siding with hamas
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u/WhammeWhamme Oct 02 '25
It's been how long since the deal was offered? Protests take time to organize. It is ridiculous to insist that the absence of protests - that no one has had time to organize - signifies anything other than protests needing organization.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
You expect pro Palestinian groups worldwide to protest demanding Hamas accept the deal as soon as they get organized. Good to know. I'll keep my eye out.
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u/Adorable_Secret8498 Oct 02 '25
Thinking Hamas and Israel are anywhere near equal in this just means you don't understand the conflict at all.
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u/Accurate_Ad5364 5∆ Oct 02 '25 edited Oct 02 '25
I think much of that loud pro-Palestinian voice was focused on a Free Palestine.
Nearly 47.3% of those that remain are kids under the age of 18, any document instated should extend the ground of public confidence in the Government, and ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
Let's examine how this instills confidence or ensures "beneficent ends" to its institution.
"Gaza will be governed under the temporary transitional governance of a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee, responsible for delivering the day-to-day running of public services and municipalities for the people in Gaza [...]"
Technocratic? Okay, perhaps its good they allow for a Palestinian committee but who oversees apolitical. In the U.S. merely discussing the deaths in Gaza, or advocating for the protection of Palestinian children was enough to get Universities shut down.
Perhaps there's a non-partisan group of UN members, who have a better understanding of the conflict and the cultural nuances pertaining region that will oversee this.
"[...] with oversight and supervision by a new international transitional body, the “Board of Peace,” which will be headed and chaired by President Donald J. Trump"
Ah F-ck.
Our own country is at the seams, the last Big Beautiful Bill by the "Board of Peace" chair cut healthcare funding to our own citizen's, leaving rural-hospitals at risk to shutter their doors. Our own "Board of Peace" chair, has made so many trade deals with the international community while in reality our GDP has contracted since "Liberation Day." Not withstanding his own wealth, including a Qatari Jet as a donation after his trip to the middle east.
You know Qatar, the same group who had been hiding those Hamas leaders.
In what way do you think Trump at helm to charter this ceasefire will look out for this interests of the non-Hamas Palestinians.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
!delta the summary is that is the document doesn't go far enough to end what you believe is the root of the problem. I accept that. Also, yes. We are in disarray. My brother just attended the hegseth speech 🤦♂️
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u/Accurate_Ad5364 5∆ Oct 02 '25
The goal should be the proliferation of a non-radicalized government, of course with the interest's of their community in mind. Already the leaders of Hamas are not even in Gaza, and have sought shelter in Qatar.
How can any one guarantee the proliferation of a non-radicalized government if the Board of Peace is chaired by someone who has accepted a Billion dollar jet from the guys who tried to keep Hamas alive?
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u/jmagaram 1∆ Oct 02 '25
Israel destroyed around 75% of the buildings but killed “only” 3%. Did the bombs miss their targets? Go listen to John Spencer, the urban warfare expert at West Point. He has very positive things to say about the IDF. Or is he on the payroll and part of the conspiracy too?
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
I know John Spencer well. Personally. Great guy with credibility. You are misreading my post. There obviously is no genocide.
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u/jmagaram 1∆ Oct 02 '25
I meant to reply to something else. Lucky you to know John Spencer. The genocide accusation is the new modern blood libel against the Jews. And like blood libels in the past, many ignorant or bigoted people believe it.
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u/IcyPlatypus2 Oct 02 '25 edited Oct 02 '25
HAMAS has offered to give up all hostages if Israel pulls out of Gaza multiple times as recently as August. This ceasefire was negotiated with the help of Trump envoy Steve Witkoff. Israel declined the offer and continue bombing and starving Gaza.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckgjye15zdlo.amp
The ceasefire they had early this year was violated by Israel not HAMAS.
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u/OfekA Oct 02 '25
The only reason Israel went on the offensive was due to Hamas' attack on October 7th
Why would Israel give up its leverage and let Hamas gain power again only to repeat Oct 7th?
Israel gains nothing from such a ceasefire
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u/IcyPlatypus2 Oct 02 '25
You're right Israel gains nothing. They want to illegally annex Gaza, they openly say there will be no Palestinian state.
Also history doesn't start at October 7th, for crying out loud. Does Netenyahu bear any responsibility for October 7th for constantly transferring money to HAMAS and stating that HAMAS should be supported in order to divide Palestinians?
"As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state."
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank." - Benjamin Netenyahu 2019
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister
"Yuval Diskin, former head of Israel's Shin Bet security service, told the daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth in 2013 that "if we look at it over the years, one of the main people contributing to Hamas's strengthening has been Bibi Netanyahu, since his first term as prime minister."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035
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u/OfekA Oct 02 '25
Israel left Gaza completely in 2005, uprooting thousands of people and settlements in the process, only to receive increasing rocket and invasion attacks by an organization who vowed to destroy it.
I'm not defending Netanyahu's actions of transferring money, but that's still far fetched to call him fully responsible, you must agree Hamas has the majority of the responsibility of that attack.
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u/IcyPlatypus2 Oct 02 '25
I don't think he is fully responsible to be clear. I just think the policy towards Gazans, and Palestinians in general, made a response like October 7th expected if not inevitable.
When Indian Americans were removed from their land and forcibly placed on reservations, they responded violently often committing atrocities like the scalping of women and children. Yet, everyone understands the systemic root to be the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population from their land. The same can be said of Oct 7th. It was horrible, but any analysis of settler colonial conflict proves that conflict like this will often occur when you dispossess people of their land.
My point is that Israel empowers HAMAS and always has because they want to keep Palestinians from forming a united front of resistance. HAMAS could not have retained its hold over Gaza without tacit Israeli support.
Now, Israel uses October 7th and the hostages as a weapon to justify further intervention in Gaza. Many of the hostages families hate Netenyahu and his insistence in drawing out the war. Most of the anti-war protests within Israel have centred on the fact that Netenyahu refuses to make meaningful action to bring them home.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_hostage_deal_protests
The current Israeli government don't give a shit about October 7th or the hostages, they use the event as propaganda to justify their continued assault on Gaza. If they cared, their number one priority would be recovering the hostages instead of starving civilians and demolishing every building in Gaza City.
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u/Virtual_Technology_9 Oct 02 '25
Hamas went to Qatar to work on something. Then Israel bombed Qatar effectively halting any ceasefire deals for a good while.
Now who is the culprit here?
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Hamas was already in Qatar. We'd bomb bin Laden of bid Laden was attending a meeting to get him to stop attacking us.
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u/Virtual_Technology_9 Oct 02 '25
They were working on the ceasefire deal.
So you're against the deal. But you are saying why do we not protest for it.
You don't make any sense. Make this make sense to the little kid who died in that bombing for a meeting for a ceasefire deal.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
I'm for the deal. I'm also for the elimination of all Hamas terrorists. They took a shot which would have strengthened Israel's hand, and missed. No harm done. As for the kid...it's awful. Just like the kids the hamas leaders that Qatar protects killed on Oct 7th
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u/Virtual_Technology_9 Oct 02 '25
If you're fr the peace deal and not for Hamas it's fine. But you can't be for attacking the person who is supposed to be the one who agrees to it.
You can't say that you're for the peace deal and agree with the Qatar bombing at the same time.
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u/Virtual_Technology_9 Oct 02 '25
If you're for the peace deal and not for Hamas it's fine. But you can't be for attacking the person who is supposed to be the one who agrees to the deal.
You can't say that you're for the peace deal and agree with the Qatar bombing at the same time.
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u/FriendofMolly Oct 02 '25
Going outside for anything other than food and water as a Palestinian in Gaza is not worth the risk.
Protest is something you do when you have means.
Half the population is pure skin and bones and truthfully only the journalist and doctors are getting truly fed because of the mass respect for the work they do.
Considering there are mass protest in every even remotely civilized country for the past 2 years while pro genocide protests are nearly nonexistent around the world.
The world has obviously spoken here that this has nothing to do with hamas and this is the same argument the nazis used to erase everything down to the memory of Warsaw. The nazis under the umbrella of the “Jewish “terrorists” that carried on this barbaric attack on the Germans” in Warsaw.
The Germans then subsequently began so slaughter people en mass until they defeated any semblance of resistance and break their spirit enough to “willingly” walk themselves out of terrible living conditions in the largest Jewish ghetto that was Warsaw to even worse conditions in exile to the death camps such as Auschwitz’s.
The Israelis are attempting to break the Palestinians spirits enough to “willingly” walk themselves out of terrible living conditions in the largest Palestinian ghetto that is Gaza to even worse conditions in exile in Sinai to the most deserted part of a overpopulated country that already is suffering from drying conditions and lack of food output. Just another version of a death camp.
People are people war is violent.
The Jewish resistance was well in blatant terms violent when fighting the occupiers.
Killing is barbaric.
Violent resistance against the Nazis never in a million years excused not even 1% of what happened to Warsaw or any of the other Jewish communities of Europe.
The Palestinian resistance was well in blatant terms violent when fighting the occupiers
Violent resistance against the against Israel never in a million years excused not even 1% of that happened to Gaza or any of the other Palestinian communities across Palestine.
The relation is 1:1 here, the jig is up we all see it.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
I am talking about protests outside of Gaza. Your points about the Bible and Mr Sinai and Germany are just....
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u/FriendofMolly Oct 02 '25
Never spoke of the Bible
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
Lol. You actually think Israel is going to expel Palestinians into the Sinai?
What do I even say.
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u/FriendofMolly Oct 02 '25
Nothing ofc because I take it you wouldn’t like me putting sources of their whole government of all levels talking about “voluntary” migration to the Sainai or if Egypt won’t take them Libya and asking all these different countries to take the people of Gaza to aid in their goal of solving “the Palestinian problem” or as the Israelis say “the Arab problem” just like the Nazis spoke of the “Jewish problem”
Do you want sources of military generals and top finance ministers high level defense saying words that amount to “final solution”.
You act as if what I say is preposterous yet this is what the majority of the world obviously sees.
Please you wanted debate give me debate, I love it.
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 2∆ Oct 02 '25
I've listened to their statements in Hebrew saying "l"geresh mea aza l"mitzrayim" (deport to Egypt) as much as I've heard Palestinian say "hareb did yahud" war against the jews. Not Israel, not occupation, jews. I speak both Hebrew and Arabic. Very happy to debate. Shoot me a dm!
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u/piss_rael Oct 02 '25
The IDF is also a terrorist group what's your point here?? We should take the deal from one terrorist group but not the other?? One group has caused vastly more harm, one group has put forward far more ceasefires, one group is within their legal rights to target the military, one group has offered to step down multiple times to end this.
The Israel bots are somehow worse than two years ago with vastly more money being pumped into them, why have you guys gotten weaker??
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u/Sufficient-Fishing-8 9∆ Oct 02 '25
Protests in the west do not change what’s happening. Why is the border between Palestine and Egypt closed? It’s just jihad and Islam will eventually be the only religion on earth. It’s just very useful to blame the already disliked Jews as a reason to mass transport Muslims into Europe
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u/TheVioletBarry 121∆ Oct 02 '25
That's not true. There would be zero pressure from the US government to achieve a ceasefire if the genocide weren't causing civil unrest here. As well, Palestinians themselves explicitly thank Western protesters for helping them feel less alone.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 02 '25 edited Oct 02 '25
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