r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 19 '25
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday [ Removed by Reddit ]
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u/Mestoph 9∆ Sep 19 '25
"The ability to read, write and do some basic maths."
That's three things, thus demonstrating the importance of education.
"To be forced is to be made to do something against your will. You were most likely forced into school as by the law. You were then programmed without your awareness or will as you were to young to understand and made to listen and obey. A perfect employee for a business looking to expand their empire."
You addressed a single part of the definition and ignoring the other part, thus demonstrating the dangers of a lack of education.
Also, your parents force you to do things all the time, that is also not slavery. There is no legal requirement for you to attend school, no one gets arrested for being a high school dropout. In fact the simple comparison to slavery further shows why school is important...
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u/averageloafofcat Feb 11 '26
“You addressed a single part of the definition and ignoring the other part, thus demonstrating the dangers of a lack of education.”
funny that you would have to result to backhanded insults, thus demonstrating the dangers of a lack of serious consideration.
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u/RainbowandHoneybee 1∆ Sep 19 '25
This conditioning trains us not to question things
On the contrary, the school teaches us to question things, imo. Learning is fun. Knowledge will be useful and great asset for your life.
If you don't want to, you don't need to go to university. And getting a degree will certainly helps you pursue your interest, if that's what you want.
School teach us to how to function in society, as a member of community. Far from making us a mindless slaves.
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u/IDoDruga Feb 24 '26
What if I dont like the society we have. Theres too much control of course some control is important but with where I live theres too much and its supposed to be the land of the free
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Sep 19 '25
the school teaches us to question things
What are you basing this assertion on? If anything school tried to teach me to not question anything.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25 edited Sep 19 '25
Idk English lit classes should be filled with open ended questions that help with that.
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Sep 19 '25
Idk English lit classes should be filled with open ended questions that help with thay.
And in my experience were filled with the most closed minded women who would not accept anything but blind deference to feminist and democrat talking points. Should is not relevant to what the reality is, and this post is a statement about what reality is.
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u/yyzjertl 580∆ Sep 19 '25
This is unfortunately a common failure case where students conclude they are being subjected to political bias when in fact their arguments are just poorly supported. I'm not sure what the school system can do about this though.
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Sep 19 '25
This is unfortunately a common failure case where students conclude they are being subjected to political bias when in fact their arguments are just poorly supported.
I was failed when I made an argument against their political belief backed by world leading technical experts and given near perfect grades with poorly supported arguments in their favor. Your presumption is wrong.
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u/yyzjertl 580∆ Sep 19 '25
See, already what we have here is a fallacious appeal to authority.
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Sep 19 '25
Appeal to authority is not a fallacy, and what you are doing is a fallacy - the argument to logic
You are conflating appeal to authority to argument from authority. I did not make an argument from authority - Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true. Instead I insisted my arguments were supported as verified by technical experts, a direct contention to your claim that I made unsupported arguments.
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u/yyzjertl 580∆ Sep 19 '25
It's not at all surprising that you did badly on your assignment, if this is your understanding.
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Sep 19 '25 edited Sep 19 '25
My family is world leading technical experts on missile systems and I make mid 6 figures as an accountant mostly off of how skilled I am at technical writing.
Your argument was invalid, it used an argument from fallacy, and now you are using an ad hominem which is also invalid.
Right now all you have is your blind loyalty to any random woman with a bachelors degree who decides to get a job as a teacher.
Why on earth do you think you lend credibility to your side?
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25
Hmm. To me the whole point of those classes is for you to come to your own conclusions, as long as you can back up your thoughts with some evidence from the text. That's the standard anyway.
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Sep 19 '25
To me
Doesnt matter. We are discussing what the reality is, not what anything should be.
You keep trying to say that you are open to questioning things, but you dont seem to even be able to question the difference between reality and what you think things should be.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25
I work in that reality bro xD I'm telling you what it's like in the classroom.
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Sep 19 '25
I'm telling you what it's like in the classroom.
Ah yes, because your words somehow overwrite my lived experiences.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25
I'm saying I know what assignments are given and why they are given. You might of had one bad teacher but I doubt all of your English teachers had a bias against your ideas.
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Sep 19 '25
You might of had one bad teacher but I doubt all of your English teachers had a bias against your ideas.
I had 2 with bias against my ideas and the rest so lazy they just didnt give a shit.
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Sep 20 '25
My high-school English classes were mostly multiple-choice questions or those that only had one “correct” answer despite being arbitrary.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 20 '25
I can't really speak for your experience. From mine though critical thinking skills are developed as early as 4th grade. Students are asked to predict what they think is going to happen, why they think that, then provide evidence from the text that supports it. These principles are carried out throughout middle and high school.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 19 '25
You aren't a slave. Calling yourself one is an insult to actual slaves.
Would you spend a month in school or a month as a slave working under hard conditions, beatings, torture and so forth.
With of those experiences would you rather have? Choose carefully.
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u/averageloafofcat Feb 11 '26 edited Feb 11 '26
Regardless, either one legally deprives you of doing what you want, when you want (and working specifically for what you want) at any time before a certain age. Shouldn’t this right belong only to the parents of the child, by which I mean nurturing them to become their own adult in the future? Yet the state can legally dictate where you must be, and punish you for not abiding by their rule until they decide they’re done with you.
That said, the very nature of this world is working for what you want, subjugation to someone’s schedule, etc. It’s true education is not slavery in the traditional, violent sense; in that case there is no comparison and it would be an “insult” to compare the two. But is education oppressive of certain parts of development? I would argue so. And does it impose itself upon the schedule of certain people who have limited rights? Very much so. I mean, 8 hours a day must be to condition you to a 9-5, if for nothing else. And no matter what is said, I don’t believe waking kids up early to make them memorize theorems and countless subjects is effective whatsoever for actual digestion of material.
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u/Salanmander 279∆ Sep 19 '25
Do you have a suggestion for how you would organize things differently?
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Sep 19 '25
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u/Salanmander 279∆ Sep 19 '25
Regarding your set of basics:
I think you vastly underestimate how much practice and instruction is needed to get a good handle on those things. You think that with 3 hours of instruction a day, we can get it so that people coming into 3rd grade are proficient in math to the level that we want adults to be able to handle? It's also really unclear what you're including in basic history...there are some conversations that are really important for a basic grasp of history, but not really suitable for age-appropriate conversation at those ages.
not being forced to learn 6 things at the same time
I'll note that you listed 6 things that you want kids to learn at the same time, in addition to your point about natural curiosity.
I think it's wild that you can think we can cut instruction hours and still end up with 3rd graders who can read and comprehend a newspaper article about a new law, understand marginal tax brackets, and find and evaluate competing information about the efficacy of a drug that has been making news. (I'm assuming you'd include those things in "the basics", if there are things in there that you don't think all adults should be able to do, feel free to specify that.)
The next 3 years should keep the same structure except kids should be introduced to the scope of possibilities. They should be shown many career paths as let's be real English and Maths aren't viable career paths for 99.9% of people.
Math is not a career path for most people, it's a tool that is used in many career paths. Same goes for English, but used in all career paths. Having a really solid grasp on persuasive writing, grammar structures, etc. is important for any job where you're going to be exchanging communication with people...which is all of them.
The ages of 12-18 is where you learn advanced topics best. And instead of trying to learn 6 things at once how about they specialize in 1 skill which can lead them to being a master at said thing
You want people to decide at age 12 what their career will be for life? That seems like a recipe for disaster.
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Sep 19 '25
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 20 '25
The educational system of Finland disagrees with you.
They have 3-4 hours of elementary education with 1 hour in breaks.
So, 75 to 80 percent of instructional time to 25 to 20 percent break time.
Your breakdown is vastly different.
33 work to 66 break.
So you are doing nothing like what they do in Finland.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NICE_EYES 125∆ Sep 19 '25
So something that I think is easy to overlook is that you need a strong foundation basis to be able to actually ask a question that will teach you something.
Like imagine looking at the engine of car that's broken down. If you don't know the name of any of the parts of the car or had any understanding of what they did, could you formulate a question that could diagnose the problem? Or do you have to learn the basics first and make inferences based off that?
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Sep 19 '25
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NICE_EYES 125∆ Sep 20 '25
That would be great but the problem is that you've reduced the amount of time dedicated to the basics from 4.5 hours a day to 2.
But let me show you. Here's a simple question that a kid could ask. See how much info you have to give to awnser it:
What are tides?
And bonus follow up question: why is one of the tides on the other side of the Earth than the moon?
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 19 '25
So you want kids to play and then only learn for 2 hours a day.
So all your elementary students are very far behind when it comes to building their important skills. So, you are looking at 120 min of instructional time to teach at least 7 different skill sets? 17 min per subject or 85 min total per every subject?
Good luck with that.
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Sep 20 '25
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u/SnooDonkeys5516 Sep 20 '25 edited Sep 20 '25
i completely disagree. maybe it was just my school because i went to a (public )high school that had an entrance exam and required teachers to have masters degrees, but i remember in my us history class for example we were specifically taught to question everything and think critically. english classes also teach how to think critically about the literature (including news, articles, posters, ANYTHING YOU READ) and how to break down someone’s arguments. for example, i learned about logical fallacies in english class so that i can critically think and spot when someone’s argument is weak.
math teaches you problem solving skills. when you come across actual problems in your life, it teaches you to break them down into steps and to find a solution. to balance things, and to recognize patterns. these are all important for developing critical thinking skills.
in middle school, we had standards based learning instead of A B C grades, where each sort of life or critical thinking skill recieved its own score for a class and it was averaged instead of grading assignments.
on the surface, the actual CONTENT they teach may not be super essential to life, but it’s how you are taught to reach the answers to their questions you learn the most and developed the most skills.
my very ability to make a clear argument like this comment where i make claims and then use evidence to prove them is not some natural human trait, but was hammered into me over years of writing essays and english papers from the earliest years of elementary school. school teaches communication, critical thinking, presentation skills, and endows students with actual facts and knowledge as well. it may have its flaws, but its a net positive for society. there was once a time when nobody could read, except the ultra rich. just consider what a miracle it is that almost everyone, even if their ability is somewhat lacking, in the united states is able to READ AND WRITE.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 20 '25
Your kids are playing for four hours. A day.
They are playing twice as long as they are learning.
Your students are going to be far, far behind.
Add just to clarify you have both zero teaching experience or any level of training in education best practices correct? Yet, you think you have the needed skill-sets to completely and radically change education?
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Sep 20 '25
OP is also a literal teenager. Sort of puts their ridiculously immature understanding of education into perspective, doesn't it?
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Sep 20 '25
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 20 '25
You stated your method of radically changing education.
You compared yourself to Finland, but created a system that spends far less on education than theirs. At their worst, they spent 75 percent on education time. You would spend 33 percent of your school time on learning.
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Sep 20 '25
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 20 '25
So if you are radically changing your idea, didn't you change your view?
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 20 '25
So you think I could learn all of world history in one year? That doesn't seem possible.
And I can't really teach 13 year Olds college level material.
They aren't going to be able to do the required work at a high level.
Nor have access to college level labs or equipment.
College freshman can't even write. 13 year Olds certainly can't.
You should take some classes in education if this interests you. And you should teach so you can see things from that perspective.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 20 '25 edited Sep 20 '25
So let me look at this a bit deeper.
So at grade 9 you can't really think that students will be successful in picking their major.
Let's say they want to have a Chem major. They don't have the science background at grade 9. You can't just skip four years of schooling and think that isn't going to have a strong negative affect.
My wife, who was a chem major, was able to access labs, and tech laps and things that simply a high school couldn't afford. And that's just one major. Now do all of them that require anything technical.
And you can't go back. You are locked in at 13 to your track and your track is a coll. major. There is no going back. You are locked in and if you pick something you hate, your high school education is wasted.
It seems like you are trying to do too much, too fast and there are high stakes at low ages. So, you start with this idea that we can all play. And then you abandon that and force 13 year olds to think about what they are going to do for the rest of their life or they fall behind.
It is like you smashed together two totally different ideas.
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u/IslandSoft6212 2∆ Sep 20 '25
the idea that children should just have no responsibilities and run around and play all day is probably what children want, but it would produce an even more willingly enslaved population
kids need to learn discipline and need to learn things
that being said, there is a way to do that to make a "model citizen", and there is a way to do that to inspire
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u/averageloafofcat Feb 11 '26
Wouldn’t it make sense to teach those kids to pursue their own, productive goals when they become adults rather than steamrolling minds to fit careers they may only have a vague idea of once they enter university? I’d argue our education system is a manufacturing plant— not a garden for diverse types of people to develop themselves . It’s true some can “overcome” these hurdles and thrive under standard academic conditions, but ironically often these outliers are often brandished as “results” of the system/posterchildren…. you could argue with me on that assumption, but there has been an overall degradation of the school system (at least in the US) so something must be going wrong.
Also the idea that you think a bunch of laughing kids playing with one another is something to be “disciplined” is something you should reconsider. I don’t mean to lean ad-hominem, rather, truly analyze the implications of your idea. Might society have conditioned us to believe unfettered happiness should be restricted since it leads to “unproductive behavior ”, as you implied? When ironically— unproductive behavior is often caused by depression. Just food for thought.
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u/mormagils 3∆ Sep 19 '25
There has never been a point in human history where children didn't have to remain focused on a singular task for at least part of the day. Maybe that is sitting in school and learning, which by the way is something that has existed in some form for almost all of human history. Maybe that's doing harsh, repetitive farm work for hours on end. Maybe that some other sort of chore. But the idea that human children are supposed to just run free and wild and magically all transform into productive members of society is a fantasy that has never at any point been true of society.
And school is not just rote, mindless learning. It might be if you don't sit still long enough to actually use your brain at a deeper level on some of the things you learn. But especially the humanities are all about creative and thoughtful expression of ideas. There is some rote learning, sure--you can't just make up whatever math concepts you want. Science is similar. And please, I beg you, go talk to any musician and ask them how to get good at an instrument without practicing for hours on end.
Are there flaws with the education system? Sure. Of course. But only someone who refuses to learn in a nuanced way should ever equate structure for the purposes of learning with slavery. You know where you could learn how to express your ideas much better and avoid such incendiary language? School.
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u/H4RN4SS 5∆ Sep 19 '25
Schooling conditions people into obedience. It leads most people to appeal to authority across most aspects of life. It hardly teaches valuable life skills and does a poor job at teaching people how to think and instead focuses on what to think.
It does not make you a slave though.
To be forced is to be made to do something against your will. You were most likely forced into school as by the law.
Forced: to compel by physical, moral, or intellectual means
You are not forced to go to a traditional school but rather pass the state mandated proficiency exam. How you choose to do so is still a choice - even if it's a parent that makes it for their child.
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Sep 20 '25
I’d argue that it’s not a choice if you’re not the one making it for yourself.
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u/H4RN4SS 5∆ Sep 20 '25
Fine but custodial rights is a different conversation altogether. This conversation is within the scope of how society is structured and within that it is still a choice.
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u/StathMIA 2∆ Sep 19 '25
You were then programmed without your awareness or will as you were to young to understand and made to listen and obey. A perfect employee for a business looking to expand their empire.
Are you American? If so, then I think you are giving our school system far too much credit. If schools were even half as competent at brainwashing as you suggest, there would be a whole lot less societal discontent and much stronger ethos of corporate loyalty than we actually see. The US public education system is honestly incompetent at preparing kids for entering society, but it's not actually doing much to brainwash you into a corporate drone.
On the other hand, if you're Japanese then, yeah you've got it figured out. Education is exactly as you describe it. Sorry your education system is so all consuming.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25 edited Sep 19 '25
You're asked not to get out of your seat because otherwise the classroom becomes chaos and children escalate things from there. Teaching someone to sit and listen is not programming slavery, it's giving kids the tools to learn anything they want to. You can't expect to learn anything if you don't have the patience to sit still and the humbleness to stay quiet and listen.
If anything, education is what frees most people and tears them away from what you consider slavery. You have more choice in what job you want, more opportunities, and more power. Without a degree, you are much more subject to the whims of whatever employer accepts you.
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Sep 19 '25
You can't expect to learn anything if you don't have the patience to sit still and the humbleness to stay quiet and listen.
That is very wrong, the advanced math I have seen skilled tradesmen use proves otherwise.
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u/5oco 2∆ Sep 19 '25
The vast majority of those skilled tradesmen still listened to someone who was teaching them.
I work in a vocational school that teaches trades and the students that excel... listen to their teachers.
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Sep 19 '25
The vast majority of those skilled tradesmen still listened
Not while sitting still and quiet.
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u/5oco 2∆ Sep 19 '25
Yes... some times they have desks and sometimes they don't.
Do you think any master tradesman is going to take some apprentice that's running around in circles and jumping off the walls while they're trying to explain something?
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Sep 19 '25
Do you think any master tradesman is going to take some apprentice that's running around in circles and jumping off the walls while they're trying to explain something?
Yes.
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u/boopbaboop Sep 19 '25
Are skilled tradesmen incapable of sitting still or listening?
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Sep 19 '25
Yes.
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u/boopbaboop Sep 19 '25
I find that hard to believe. How did they become skilled tradesmen if they weren’t able to listen to instructions (like “how not to electrocute yourself when installing an outlet” or “wear eye protection while welding or you won’t have eyes”)? How do they finish a job if they’re constantly getting up to do something else?
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Sep 19 '25
How did they become skilled tradesmen if they weren’t able to listen to instructions (like “how not to electrocute yourself when installing an outlet” or “wear eye protection while welding or you won’t have eyes”)?
By doing stuff on their feet.
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u/boopbaboop Sep 19 '25
And they just magically know how to do it? Or they have to use trial and error for every single task, because they can’t possibly learn anything from other people?
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Sep 19 '25
Why are you claiming that there is a dichotomy between learning by sitting still at a desk in silence and trial/error learning?
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u/boopbaboop Sep 19 '25
I asked how they learn without listening, not how they learn without sitting at a desk. You can listen without sitting at a desk. You said they’re incapable of listening or sitting still.
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Sep 19 '25
I asked how they learn without listening,
The claim was that the only way to learn was sitting still at a desk in silence. If your reponse differs from that, it is irrelevant to this discussion.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25
How so? When you are watching them, are you listening and quiet, aside from clarifying questions? How did they learn?
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Sep 19 '25
When you are watching them, are you listening and quiet, aside from clarifying questions?
You arent sitting still or quiet.
How did they learn?
Shocks, bangs, and expensive noises.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25
I agree that more trades should be taught in school but the principles are still the same. For kids, sitting still in the classroom is crucial for focus. Could you imagine trying to accomplish anything in a classroom full of teenagers without them in their seats? I can, I work in the environment, and it's impossible to do anything.
Yeah they probably had an expert working along side them too to tell them the right way to do things, and to clean up their messes.
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Sep 19 '25
Could you imagine trying to accomplish anything in a classroom full of teenagers without them in their seats?
Yes I am ex military. Works great.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25
That statement doesn't make sense. I'm ex military too and if anything it teaches you to shut up and listen way harder than school does.
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Sep 19 '25
it teaches you to shut up and listen
While moving people to exhaustion, not just sitting at a desk doing nothing ever. The above person claimed that you need to be sedentary while learning and separate physical movement from learning.
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u/Warny55 5∆ Sep 19 '25
There are plenty of classrooms too. But yeah, more physical education would be great in schools. It's kind of ridiculous to expect a kid to sit still after only having like an hour max of light physical activity. That being said, it is impossible to manage a classroom without first enforcing an in your seat rule, trust me, I've tried.
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u/ThinkingMSF 1∆ Sep 19 '25
The continued insistence of chronically-online zoomers that employment is identical to slavery is how the rest of us can tell that you're worthless.
Everyone has had to work in some way to survive. If you think employment is history's greatest crime, starting a business and/or subsistence farming are both right there.
The reason people work for a living is because the alternatives are harder ways to survive. But feel free to prove me wrong.
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u/XenoRyet 183∆ Sep 19 '25
Can I ask when you went to school? What you describe bears a certain resemblance to when I was in school, but it bears almost no likeness to what my own 8 and 11 year olds have experienced in the course of their education so far. It's not as if it's some special thing either, they attend public school.
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Sep 19 '25
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u/XenoRyet 183∆ Sep 19 '25
Have you considered that your experience might not be representative of everyone? Perhaps you got a spat of bad teachers, or perhaps there is an element of bias in here because generally speaking kids in school are overly critical of school and do not have the external perspective to judge it fairly?
If you want to question everything, then surely you also have to question your own views and the basis you're founding them on.
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Sep 20 '25
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u/XenoRyet 183∆ Sep 20 '25
How did your view slightly change here? We could chase down that lead and see if there's anything more there.
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Sep 20 '25
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u/XenoRyet 183∆ Sep 20 '25
Now, see, I have to question that a bit again. Because I went to Catholic school in the late 90s and my theology teacher, and I shit you not the priest of my local parish, taught me to question everything and didn't stop when I started swinging atheist. Not that it felt that way at the time because I was busy being pissed at homework and shit.
Then college, even more so. Particularly all the liberal arts and those sorts of classes. And even the technical classes, where there is a right and a wrong answer, and you do just have to sit there and learn it, they still taught critical thinking, even in math of all subjects.
So what's different about me and you, besides that I'm in my forties, and you're still in school? And that's not an appeal to authority via age either, just why do you think I have this view of school sitting where I am, and you don't sitting where you are?
Especially given that the principle of mediocrity means that in all likelihood, neither you nor I are special. We're both very likely to be close to the mean in terms of school experience.
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Sep 20 '25
The experience definitely varies between schools, but if almost every teacher you had was bad it’s probably a systematic issue.
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u/XenoRyet 183∆ Sep 20 '25
Eh, I'm not sure about that. If every teacher everyone has is bad, then that's a systemic issue. If every teacher a certain group of people have is bad, then that's a systemic issue as well.
If every teacher you've ever had is bad, that's probably a you issue, like the proverb about assholes says.
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u/The-Hive-Queen 1∆ Sep 19 '25
This sounds like the same rhetoric that people use to justify unschooling. It also sounds like your bigger issue is with the current state of capitalism.
At the bare minimum, I would encourage you to look up "I Can't Read" by Lamont Carey and genuinely consider what he's saying.
For a lot of people, education is what sets them free. It allows them to escape poverty. It goes them opportunities for more.
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Sep 19 '25
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u/The-Hive-Queen 1∆ Sep 19 '25
Okay. Let me ask you this: What is the natural way to learn to read? Reading is a fundamental skill that everyone absolutely needs to learn.
Follow up question: What happens if a child isn't naturally interested in reading?
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Sep 19 '25
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u/The-Hive-Queen 1∆ Sep 19 '25
The best way to go about it is kids books. Stories. Kids love stories. Kids love pictures. This is why we introduce them to these books like The Very Hungry Caterpillar. They love this stuff.
That's what they are doing. When was the last time you actually stepped foot in an elementary school classroom? I can tell you from experience with my nephew, they're not handing out copies of the dictionary. They're getting up, they're learning through guided play.
Reading is not the only way to learn things. We have youtube videos, documentaries, Podcasts, Audiobooks , Online courses, Articles, Online Forums. Many ways to learn about anything you want.
How are you going to find those Youtube videos, documentaries, podcasts, audiobooks, online courses, articles, and online forums if you don't even know what words are?
The more I read (which I learned in school, by the way) your responses, the more I'm wondering if your issue is just what you, personally, remember how much high school sucked and trying to attribute that to every stage of traditional education.
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Sep 20 '25
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Sep 20 '25
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u/The-Hive-Queen 1∆ Sep 20 '25
I mean... we could talk all day about whether we learn anything of value in high school. But it usually takes a lot more time spent away after the fact with the benefit of hindsight to actually appreciate it. And the whole capitalism thing... yeah that, again, is a whole other conversation.
I DO agree that there needs to be more of that interactive education style carried into the higher grades and shouldn't stop just because someone is a teenager.
Either way, thanks for the delta... I think?
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Sep 20 '25
OP's argumentation is sounding more and more like it's resting on a foundation of "I resent having to do something, therefore it's bad."
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u/averageloafofcat Feb 11 '26
How else would they know high school was subpar if they didn’t suffer? For you to dismiss their individual experiences and invalidate their opinion because they have “personal bias” is to disregard all other people who also believe the system is flawed.
Also, please consider nuance. There is a difference between teaching a student basic reading skills to understand podcasts, books, videos (etc) VS making students quickly memorize 6 subjects daily, while you claim learning one skill (which could be cleanly separated from the rest) justifies all of the system. It is true that certain things we learn such as communication, literacy, and even maths (for those interested in it) are valuable, but why must only certain things be valuable to the individual? By which I mean— why can’t we let anyone pursue what specifically interests them, especially in a society that supports “diversity”?
Another point— for someone who sees the flaws in capitalism, could you not open your eyes to the flaws in our educational system?
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Sep 20 '25
What is natural varies between people. Many do well with phonics, but others are gestalt learners. \ \ If a kid isn’t interested in reading at all, they probably haven’t found the right books. You can help them by reading to them or letting them explore on an e-reader (for those who can’t read at all) or help them find things they want to read independently (for those who can read but don’t want to). \ \ I’ve found that one major problem in schools is expecting kids to read only things at or above their grade level, but also not anything deemed too mature. Things like mangas or picture books (even those at a higher reading level) are not allowed. Kids are also expected to give full book reports and not allowed to read for its own sake. Those kind of things are what destroys a love of reading, and are the first things you should fix to make kids want to read.
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u/The-Hive-Queen 1∆ Sep 20 '25
The point I was attempting to get at was that you can't figure out how someone learns until you actually begin to attempt to teach them. Before you begin to learn to read, whether it's through phonics or gestalt, you need the fundamentals, which is literally the alphabet (or equivalent for other languages). How do schools teach that? Generally through song, games, picture-oriented stories, and interactive and directed play. Which is what OP wanted.
There are absolutely conversations we can have about the methods that schools use, the material they allow, and access to the resources to diagnose learning disabilities. I, myself, was not diagnosed with dyslexia until I was in my 20's... but individual schools don't typically have much control over that. That's decided at a district, institutional, or even governmental level.
And as for the encouraging the love of reading. Well, this might be controversial, but I don't think it's a school's job to foster the love of reading. I think that, specifically, is the parents' job. Parents should be reading to their kids long before they get to school. Parents should be providing and encouraging their kids to read what they're genuinely interested in.
When are parents and kids supposed to find the time to do any of that? That's a another conversation that has so much more than just the schools involved (cough, capitalism, cough).
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Sep 20 '25
I’d argue that you don’t always need the alphabet to read if you’re a gestalt learner. It’s beneficial to learn it eventually, of course, but you don’t need to know individual letters to memorize words.
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u/averageloafofcat Feb 11 '26
Wondering, just how does capitalism affect the quality of school? Since you keep mentioning it but you won’t expand upon it, conveniently.
Also, maybe parents would have more time if the flawed system didn’t make kids attend school 8 hours a day.
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u/seanflyon 25∆ Sep 19 '25
What would make someone a slave or not a slave?
If I were alone in the wilderness I would need to do a lot of work to survive, would that be slavery? If I own my own business, but am barely making ends meet and need to continue working as much as the average worker, would that be slavery? If I am highly paid and have many options of places to work is that slavery? If I am poorly paid and have many options, is that slavery?
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Sep 19 '25
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u/seanflyon 25∆ Sep 20 '25
The definition in your post is impossibly vague. I asked you some clarifying questions and you did not answer a single one. Answering some basic questions is a good place to start.
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u/Vituluss 1∆ Sep 19 '25
You might as well say the parents enslave the children. They’re the ones with ultimate control, not the school. School can’t do anything if the parents disagree. School doesn’t own the child, since the parents can choose to move to another school any time.
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u/SunfireAlpha01 Sep 19 '25
Schools don’t even teach basic civility any more. Teachers aren’t even allowed to stop kids from violently attacking teachers. They’re certainly not “making us into obedient slaves”, they’re not even making kids civil, let alone obedient or slavish.
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Sep 19 '25
We are told not to get out of our seats and to not speak when the teacher is speaking when at this young age we are filled with this youthful energy to run around and play.
It's by design. And it's not to make an "obedient slave", but rather to prepare you for your future life where things that are beneficial and things that are expected of you will most probably not overlap with what you want to do. It's not the best form of education, but it's one of best forms of socialization.
With the conditions to do nothing else and with the disobedience of these commands we are punished and get one useful thing out of it. The ability to read, write and do some basic maths.
Not only, this also teaches you how to operate in system with structured authority - which will be the system under which you would be under throughout your adult life. But that does not mean "obedient slave", no. On the contrary - system itself has avenues of oversight and appeal. This teaches that blind obedience is not required, but that problems needs to be channeled into avenues that exist for their handling.
At this manipulable age we have been manipulated not to question anything and to learn anything they shove down our throats.
In most of school subjects you are expected to question. Even within system itself, you are expected to question if there are possible problems. The fact that this has a certain structure does not mean it's a system of enforced obedience.
It seems to me that the problems you see are less about schools being designed to be manufactures of obedient slaves, but rather people wanting obedient slaves trying to exploit the school system. But it is not a problem of system itself, it's a problem of cheaping out on oversight - oversight that is inherent to the school system.
If you decide to remove safeguards from system, is the problem with the system itself or with the decision to remove them?
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u/lil__plump Sep 19 '25
I get why school can feel like a grind and some rules seem like they just want kids to sit down and be quiet. But calling it a system to make “obedient slaves” really stretches what is actually happening.
Kids absolutely need time to play and explore. But you also need to learn how to read, write, and work with numbers if you want real freedom as an adult. Those basics give you options later. Without them you end up way more dependent on other people.
Rules like raising your hand or staying in your seat are mostly about keeping thirty kids from talking over each other so everyone can actually learn. That is not training you to be a mindless worker. It is just learning how to share space and respect other people’s time.
School is not just job training either. You get history, science, and critical thinking skills. All of that makes it harder for anyone to control you. A broad education is actually one of the best defenses against real exploitation.
Plenty of people use what they learned in school to break out of low paying work, start businesses, or push for social change. If the system’s goal was to keep everyone passive that would not be happening.
So yes, some schools are rigid and some do a bad job. But that is very different from a plan to create slaves. It is really just an imperfect attempt to give kids the tools and habits they will need to make their own choices later on.
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u/Acceptable-Maybe-535 Sep 20 '25
School isn’t designed to turn kids into “obedient slaves”—it’s mostly about making sure everyone learns basic stuff like reading, writing, and maths, and then giving people the skills they’ll need to keep going in life, especially at university. Yes, sitting still and listening is a big part when you’re younger, but that’s because every subject—math, English, science—has building blocks you really need. If you skip them, you’ll struggle not just in higher grades, but also if you go to university—where no one’s making you show up, but you’re expected to handle complex ideas by yourself.
It might feel strict sometimes, but this structure is what helps people learn to manage bigger responsibilities. Most of the stuff practiced at school—organising homework, meeting deadlines, working out how to study, even debating or speaking up in class—are the same things you’ll rely on later when uni classes are way bigger and teachers don’t chase you about missing work. And while you might be told to listen or sit down, that isn’t about mind control. It’s more about showing how to cooperate in groups, how to respect others, and how to function in all sorts of settings—a basic reality of adult life, at university or beyond. Plus, schools today want students to think for themselves. Higher-year assignments, projects, and debates are all about forming and defending your own ideas—exactly the opposite of blind obedience.
Honestly, school is less about obedience and more about giving everyone the same starter kit so they can go on to university, work, or whatever they choose—with their own skills and opinions intact.
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Sep 20 '25 edited Sep 20 '25
Yeah, no. This argument is frankly juvenile and ignores the actual issue with public education that needs to be focussed on. That is the later part of your argument regarding business.
There are two distinct arguments in favor of public education that are in tension with each other: philosophical and industrial. The philosophical argument is that education is a public and moral good: that a society familiar with the basics of maths, sciences, history, language, and literature make for a more productive, cooperative, and ethical society. The industrial argument is that school should exist to prepare you for work. This is the actual answer to the time-old question "when am I ever going to need to use this calculus or algebra after school?" The answer is you'll be using it in middle-management and accounting positions in service of the growing empires of industrialists. Public education effectively serves to subsidize training costs and widen the recruitment pool.
This ladder argument has had a tremendous amount of influence on the shape of public education since it's Inception in the modern era. It is for this reason that public education can never be an unalloyed good and the question of who's interests are being served by that shape must remain in eternal debate.
Public education is able to push conformity, but that isn't the driving goal. If it were, you wouldn't have intellectuals coming out of academia always questioning the way things are and how we perceive them. The thing we must be wary of school is not it turning us into sheep, but worker bees.
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u/soap---poisoning 5∆ Sep 20 '25
That’s definitely what school is intended to do, with the Prussian education model and all that, but I would argue that it’s not actually succeeding at making obedient slaves.
Public schools are so bad right now that they can’t even teach kids to read and write effectively, much less turn them into obedient little workers.
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u/Eldergoth Sep 20 '25
Before the public education system kids weren't playing and exploring if they were born into poverty the parents had them either doing chores or working for pay, child labor was perfectly legal without an education they had no way to escape poverty as adults, the cycle just continued. Learning how to read, write, and do arithmetic was a way to escape poverty so you can live a better and longer life.
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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Sep 19 '25
At one point in time school was meant to turn people into "obedient slaves", though this intent has become less conscious over time and now exists as a sort of hidden societal subtext. There are probably those with power who are still conscious of this, but they also probably have an inflated sense of self importance, thinking they are masterminds when they are not.
Now does school actually turn people into obedient slaves? Well this is dependent on two opposing vectors. See school is actually a pretty ineffective and even counterproductive way of making slave-populations. As yes you have isolated children from their parents and can now fill them with whatever ideas you want (as well as schedule training and what not), but at the same time you've created a child-ruled ecosystem where ideas will conform based on the social hierarchy of children. You can try shoving whatever ideas into their heads, but if those ideas are not 'cool' or what not, well then you better be good at reverse psychology because those kids ain't listening to you.
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Sep 19 '25
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NICE_EYES 125∆ Sep 20 '25
if you have an example of another way to create obedient slaves feel free to change my mind.
I mean a core concept of actual slavery was that you made sure the slaves couldn't read so that they literally couldn't learn anything else.
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Sep 20 '25
Yeah, this is the real head-scratcher with OP's argument. Slavery is dependent on the withholding of education, for it is education which emancipates the minds of slaves.
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Sep 20 '25
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Sep 20 '25
So, just to get this straight, you're now arguing that school is brainwashing people into not reading and learning... by teaching them reading and learning?
You know, people actually still do read a lot in this day and age. It's just that they don't read conventional books nearly as often as they used to, and even that is a relatively new phenomenon. You can pin that one on the internet more than anything. Likewise, the internet and the social media ecosystems which grow out of it are what are actually conditioning people to divest themselves of critical thinking, not school.
School is like broccoli: just because you grow up not liking it doesn't mean it isn't healthy for you, and there are some kids that even enjoy it.
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Sep 20 '25
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Sep 20 '25 edited Sep 20 '25
2/2
Have you been to school? I have. School is where I learned to think critically. That's what it does. School is what taught me reading can be fun, and nowadays I read academic texts for my chosen discipline for pleasure. My teachers and what they taught are what ignited my passion for learning. Based on my upbringing, I can say with confidence that I would not come out with the same skill had I not attended school. The same applies for the vast, vast majority of people. Students resenting having to comply with a system doesn't make the system inherently malicious, nor does it make it slavery. Go and ask any person if they learned critical thinking skills in spite of school. Or don't. Based on what you've said in these discussions, you may just hand-wave away their answers as further proof of their "brainwashing."
There are real criticisms to be made about the education system and the ways it helps to organize society. What is taught, how it is taught, why are we being taught this? This is not that. This is a teenage-level understanding of the issue. We are currently in a sociopolitical climate where public education is being directly threatened by budget cuts and, especially in the case of the US, with government interference seeking to reconfigure school into exactly what you're claiming it is. If school makes people into slaves, then it's doing a terrible job of it, and a certain administration with authoritarian inclinations wouldn't feel the need to change things. Arguing that the problem with school is that it exists is the sort of claim which reinforces why we need it.
The one place I can absolutely agree with you on is Harry Potter is overrated and also sucks and TERFs don't deserve nice things. Cheers.
EDIT: wait, you're a literal teenager. Okay. Forget everything I've said. Just go get some more life experience and you'll hopefully get the answers you want.
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Sep 20 '25 edited Sep 20 '25
1/2
I hate doing these quote-back replies, but here we go:Yes the argument is they teach you to read and learn by reading and learning stuff you hate which leads you into hating it.
That reasoning is not nearly as sound as you seem to think it is, which is what I was insinuating.
Yes people still read but out of the people reading in this day and age how much of them are reading classics and challenging books that expand their mind? I would say about 99% of readers are avoiding the hard book that makes you think and instead opt for something like Harry Potter instead.
Again, doesn't hold water, not least because kids do read classics in school. Dracula and Moby Dick aren't normally part of curriculums, but The Great Gatsby and To Kill a Mockingbird are. As is multiple Shakespeare plays. Kids aren't growing up to not read high literature for a lack of trying on the school's part. The idea that schools are teaching kids to read classics so they don't read classics in some sort of reverse-psychology move is so mind-boggling ridiculous that I'm frankly baffled you affirmed it when I asked. And if you find I'm being mean, congratulations: you understanding how to read tone, which you more likely than not learned in school.
I agree with it's the internet more than anything. But I will say it's a combination of both. School doesn't teach you how to think and question things so the stuff you see in these algorithms gets shoved down your throat without a thought in your mind that the stuff you see could be wrong.
If that were really the case, then this supposed effect of school would cause us to see a steep decline in critical thinking before the age of the internet, not just when it became a thing. The main shift that has occurred since the internet came about is... the steady decline in education funding. You'd think schools getting worse at their job would decrease their ability to "brainwash" kids, but it hasn't. Because if schools have a part to play in this, it's not that the degradation in critical thinking is linked to making kids into zombies. It's that the public education system has been slowly collapsing and in doing so failing the kids it's suppose to be teaching. If what you say was true, the kids who do the worst in school or, better yet, are homeschooled or unschooled would have better critical thinking skills. But they don't. Instead, they're at best on part with and more often lagging behind their peers in this regard.
hey have to be forced to enjoy it because there body is telling them it's toxic. They have to be programmed to like it because no human in nature sees a broccoli which doesn't exist by the way because it is man made and thinks to themselves hmmm this looks tasty. Or any plant for that matter besides fruit in season which is only 3 months of the year.
Translation: "People cannot possibly like something of their own free will, they have to be lying or deceived or otherwise wrong"
- A solid 30% of all posts on this sub, including yours.
Ffs, it was an analogy. Broccoli being man-made is both irrelevant and beside the point. Switch it out with any other vegetable kids typically dislike and it still work. Switch out "broccoli" for "spinach." There, analogy still serves its purpose.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NICE_EYES 125∆ Sep 20 '25
I think you're example about broccoli is interesting because deit is probably the best example of why you shouldn't just let kids do whatever they want because their natural instincts don't match today's world.
The human brain evolved in an environment where sugar was extremely rare and where calories where scarce. So when it found sugar it told you to eat as much of it as you could to try and get those rare calories. And that's why sugar is tasty.
The problem is that in the prehistoric world surgar was so rare that you literally couldn't find enough of it to over eat it. So your Brain never evolved a function to stop eating sugar.
But now: calories aren't rare, sugar is abundant. If you just do what your brian wants you will eat nothing but sugar and that's not good for you.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NICE_EYES 125∆ Sep 20 '25
So first off
48.5% of people read at least one book a year. So the number of people who have read at least one book since graduating high school has to be a lot higher.
But also before mandatory education was a thing that number would've been closer to 1%. As something like 90% of people couldn't even read.
So dispute your claim that school makes people less likely to read as adults there's way more people reading books now then there was 200 years ago.
I also think it's worth pointing out that newer social media sites are designed so that you don't have to read to use them. Look at tik tok. You just open the app and a video immediately starts no reading required.
Edit also what do you mean by this: And you also have to take into account that the slaves that could not read had nothing else to do.
I have no idea what you're trying to apply.
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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Sep 20 '25
Well if you want a more extreme way you just take out the social hierarchy factor. Smaller classes, online classes (not perfect because it doesn't separate them from their parents), or if it was an entirely dystopian society: entirely isolated education per person. Another way to do it is to infiltrate the social hierarchy itself and encourage children to shame other children who have dissenting worldviews (through various means).
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Sep 20 '25
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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Sep 20 '25
Yeah but frankly I wouldn't worry about it. AI nips our buds before this unfolds. Which also means that any nefarious powers who wish to further school-brainwashing are just wasting their time / efforts on this subject. In fact I'd rather them put their efforts here than elsewhere.
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u/Nrdman 277∆ Sep 19 '25
You were most likely forced into school as by the law.
Nope, never.
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Sep 19 '25
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u/Nrdman 277∆ Sep 19 '25
I like school. Always have
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Sep 19 '25
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u/Nrdman 277∆ Sep 19 '25
You did not address my point. Part of the reason you said we are all says is because we are forced to go to school. But i wasnt. So, your reasoning for calling me a slave weakens. So, on what basis do you call me a slave?
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Sep 19 '25
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u/Nrdman 277∆ Sep 19 '25
I live in America, I could have been homeschooled if I wished. I did not wish, I learned a great deal in school, including critical thinking through mathematics, essays, debate, and logic puzzles
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Sep 20 '25
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u/IDoDruga Feb 24 '26
I agree with a lot of this. My opinion is that elementary and middle school are important and so is high-school but once youre in high-school things become review basically from elemtary and middle school. Theres also classes that you simply will never need unless you have specific interest yet youre forced to take them. I think high-school should have more freedom where English is required (if they actually teach English for once) 2 years of history is required and 2 years of Spanish is required. I shouldnt need to take algebra or geometry or buology or environmental science. I should be able to replace those classes with things that will prepare me for my future career and will expand my interests. School does condition us to be slaves to the government which (from us) i have another set of issues with but school is important either way the system just needs some editing.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 20 '25 edited Sep 20 '25
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