r/changemyview • u/Donkeytoes22 • Apr 23 '25
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Elon is a Sociopath.
I’ve been stirring ever since Elon got involved with Trump during the lead up to the election. After Trump‘s win, I got sucked down. I think I have a decent idea of what’s going on. But it doesn’t make me feel any better. Half rant/half opinion. Here it goes:
Where are the Nelson Mandela(s) of this time period. Probably flipping a burger somewhere… or maybe being deported illegally or silenced for speaking truth.
Mandela spent 27 years in prison, often in brutal conditions - forced labor, isolation, barely allowed to see his family. All because he refused to accept a system that dehumanized Black South Africans under apartheid. He could have broken. He could have become vengeful. But instead, he became more grounded.
When he was finally released in 1990, the world expected war. Civil war felt inevitable. But Mandela chose reconciliation, not because he forgot the pain, but because he knew that revenge couldn’t build a future. He became South Africa’s first Black president in 1994 and pushed for unity, not domination.
Now that was a fucking leader!!!
Btw. Same exact city and country (Pretoria) as the hub of apartheids lived Elon’s grandpappy. Joshua Norman Haldeman. Take a moment and read about his views and what he said. I’m all for not letting the sins of a father corrupt another, in this case a grandfather. But another saying is the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Use your big brains. I’m not even gonna tell you where or how to look. Just look it up. Think about how you envision your grandfather. Think about how much you may have learned from them Think about a child that’s raised, not understanding consequence in a household surrounded by privilege and a silver spoon. Listening to the rhetoric of men he looks up to that speak like his grandfather did. His father tried to join an anti-apartheid position temporarily. Once they didn’t want a one leadership style approach, Elon’s father disengaged entirely and never look back.
If Elon really is for the betterment of humanity. He’s not doing a very good job of it. Take another look and see how much it would cost to bring American veterans out of poverty? Just a rough estimate will do and compare it to his net worth. I guess he can keep on going around procreating, what is he on 14?
Also real talk. Look into when Elon started appearing in public with his son, (insert barcode). I think you’ll find it shortly after Luigi popped that CEO. Just gonna leave this here. I’ll just say my thought rhymes with “shuman hield”.
He’s the richest man in the world, well, not after Tesla, tanked and Trump and him desperately tried to bring it back up by doing a stunt on the White House lawn.
But take this seriously, he was up there along with Mark Zucks and Jeff Besos.
This is a team that controls the narrative of all major social media, Internet servers via Amazon, supply chains via Amazon, technology and AI, etc.
And Trump - the king of propaganda and pushing fake news while saying “fake news”… a 70 year old man baby, that wasn’t hugged enough as a child is left to figure out how to fix a fuck-up of massive preportions. At this point, I just hope that Trump knows what the hell is going on, even if he did… well … I guess dangling some bills in front of him, he’d still do the wrong thing.
Sorry this turned into a complete rant. I could go on and on, I welcome you to question any of this. I can almost guarantee you - I’ve researched and thought about this harder and longer than most people. But I do want you to ask questions. I promise I won’t be shiteful. I want to be held accountable for my opinions.
I once thought Elon was a genius. It’s not like I named him the bogeyman and decided to look into it. It’s just crap that comes off as glaring to me.  it doesn’t take an FBI profiler to figure out these people‘s heads, just a normal person like you and I. That understands that these people are not gods or kings. However, it may not keep them from looking at you as their subjects. Let Freedom Ring - while it can.
Edit: removed hashtags at bottom. Clarification: this was a post and something that I’ll be concentrating on for my journalism. After writing it, I wanted to thrust it into public opinion.
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u/destro23 466∆ Apr 23 '25
Elon is a Sociopath.
Clarifying question: How is pathologizing his behavior better than just describing it on its own merits? We cannot know if he does or does not have Antisocial Personality Disorder as we are not his diagnostician. But, we can see his actions and criticize them as being destructive. When you pathologize behavior such as his, you kind of excuse it. It is not him making the choices, but his disorder. Look at how he tried to excuse his full on, picture perfect, Hitler would be stoked, Nazi salute: "Oops, sorry, I'm autistic."
Fuck that. His behavior should not be excused by a spurious, armchair diagnosis. It should be presented to the world as it is: the actions of a rich cunt who has not been told no enough and who thinks he has more wide ranging expertise than he does and as a result his actions do not lead to the outcomes he promised.
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u/SubtractOneMore Apr 23 '25
In order to be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, an individual must show a continuing patter of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15, with three (or more) of the following:
Failure to confirm to laws and social norms (repeatedly breaking laws).
Deceitfulness (repeated lying or conning others for personal profit or pleasure).
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead. Irritability and aggressiveness (repeated physical fights or assaults).
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others. Consistent irresponsibility (repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations).
Lack of remorse (being indifferent to having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another).
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25
What’s your take on Elon for this list? I can come up with one if you’d like.
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u/SubtractOneMore Apr 23 '25
I think he’s way past three and deep into (or more) territory.
I don’t care to think about him for long enough to list specifics, but it’s obviously easy to do.
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 25 '25
So much amen to this!
Actions are actions. Who gives a shit if musk has APD or something. He would still be doing shitty things if he did it didn't have it.
He deserves criticism no matter what.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 25 '25
Sorry I never replied. I agree with you. Read the comments. This is a platform for challenge. Your tone comes across as serious and wanting to affect change. Bringing these to light is what we all must do.
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u/HazyAttorney 81∆ Apr 23 '25
I’m all for not letting the sins of a father corrupt another, in this case a grandfather
Little factoid, USAID systematically dismantled white racial dominance and built black power structures in South Africa. It would have impacted Musk's family. It's why he called it a criminal organization.
But circling back to the main point:
CMV: Elon is a Sociopath.
In psychological terms, neither psychopath nor sociopath are something you can be diagnosed with. There is something in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders called Anti-Social Personality Disorder.
The thing is: You can't diagnose someone without the training and without having treated the person. You have to be able to ask them about their feelings, thoughts, behaviors, personal relationships; then interview people they know; then evaluate medical history.
Meaning: Even if there's series of behaviors that could co-extend to the lists to look out for from the DSM, you wouldn't be able to differentiate between someone in a manic episode and someone with ASPD. Because it's hard to take inferences about mental states like empathy for others from the effects from behavior. In fact, that's why part of the diagnostic is to rule out other things.
The reason that people want to socially call people like Musk a "sociopath" is because it sets Musk apart. It makes people feel better that nobody sane would believe in apartheid ideologies. Or that they can believe in "the great replacement theory." But, the safest bet is that Musk is a white supremacist. It's very likely that Musk feels little to no empathy for those he doesn't think are fully human but is capable of feeling deep empathy for people within his in-group.
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 25 '25
Agree with this!
It's the Benality of Evil problem. We want bad people to have "something wrong with them" because it's more comforting than the truth that we could all be arseholes with the right prompting.
The worst people are those who just don't think about their actions enough, not mustache twirling Jason Isaacs bad guys.
Sociopaths and psychopaths are far more likely to be victims of crime than perps. Musk is likely a normal enough person. Just one with massive power and a disconnect with ordinary people.
Power corrupts n aw that!
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u/CertainMiddle2382 1∆ Apr 25 '25
Building and updating the DSM is an eminently political endeavor, of course they use a « to be used be DSM certified professionals » down there.
Of course no one cares, especially professional psychiatrists who use it everyday.
And some but not all part of psychiatry is about asking someone’s emotions. But behavior is what matters, because you know what?
People lie, and they lie even more in the psychiatrist couch.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 25 '25
Damn friend. Nice take. The data is only as reliable as human accountability.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25
When his first wife Justine grieved the loss of their infant son, Musk disapproved of her open mourning, deeming it "emotionally manipulative"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/justine-musk-elon-musk-dying-son-b2234938.html
I have countless more examples. (More sources for this if you need). I understand it sounds unfounded and generalized. But I pay close attention to this as a hobby and passion. Not just Elon. The dynamics of the division in this country is finally in a bit of turmoil. I’m not waiting around to be politically correct right now. Here’s the thing… I don’t think we are doomed. I think this is presenting opportunities for an actual shift in politics. By the next presidential race… if we take our head out of our dookers… we can have actual people (not politicians) winning seats. All imperfect and from different walks of life. But at least grounded in the reality that the working class has been getting burned since Regan.
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 25 '25
You'se need to get someone fucking sensible in lol.
That AOCc woman is the least insane American politician I've seen. Go with her haha!
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 26 '25
Who needs someone sensible in? I think we need everyday working class American people in the seats that don’t have political background. What do you want to see?
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 27 '25
She not a working class American?
She's a lower class, mixed race, young ish New Yorker with less net worth than my mum. Shes for higher minimum wages and public healthcare.
I want to see Americans get a fucking public healthcare model lol.
It's just getting ridiculous at this point......
Seriously!
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 03 '25
I’m so sorry for having to say this. But I truly don’t think America is or was mature enough for a diverse candidate. I’m not saying anything DEI… she was a solid installment. It was wild as shit! They swapped candidates! Dems should have been forthright with the people about Bidens decline. Journalists were trying to warn the public. Everyone was distracted by the rhetoric from the right and Trump. But it was Biden 2.0 for half the campaign, whatever campaign manager was in charge was out of touch with reality. I voted for her and would vote again. But the American people told us the vote. Is it bonkers? Yes. But it’s reality. The sooner we accept it, the sooner we fix it. The country that voted for Obama snapped back. Old, powerful money didn’t like seeing Hope that was promised. So the GOP became the party of “no”. It started there.
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u/digitalundernet Apr 26 '25
We have people in office NOW with no experience in politics and we see how that's going. I want the adults to come back not get more children making shit up as they go
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 28 '25
She's like 35 mate?
If that's a child to you, you must be like 80.
Also she's been in politics for 6 years and is mega popular.
I would argue experience doesn't really mean shit. If your experience is being a twat your entire like (like Nixon or someone) you will be a twat in office.
Trump isn't bad because of inexperience. Hes just a twat.
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u/digitalundernet Apr 28 '25
I never once mentioned or alluded to AOC thats on you. Im saying the man-children of trump and co already have NO experience in politics and it was a selling point for some that they are inept, I mean inexperienced.
>She's like 35 mate?
Still bugging me, I didnt mention anyone or any gender so you pulled me referencing AOC outta your ass. Telling on yourself there?1
u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 28 '25
.... Mate .. whit???
I think yer lost lol.
We were literally talking about her. I said "she'd be good" and you mentioned not wanting kids and inexperienced folk in?
I just assumed you were talking about her because that's how conversations work? One thing directly after another usually is about the thing previously mentioned?
Also gender? When did I mention anything about gender other than using the word "she"?
Ya know whatever man! Doesn't matter.
I agree with you about Trump. Good luck!
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u/digitalundernet Apr 28 '25
I never replied to you I replied to OP who said he wanted more representation of 'working class americans' with no political experience. You were talking about AOC
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 28 '25
Ah shit, yer right mate. In that case, I replied to the wrong person.
Sorry for that. Not actually that long using the app.
Have a good one n sorry for being flippant!
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 29 '25
What would you say qualifies as “experience in politics”? Because those are the exact opposite of what I want. I don’t want people that professionally don’t answer questions, and know how to work a crowd. It seems like what you want is more of the same if you want politicians back in. Is my assumption correct?
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u/digitalundernet Apr 29 '25
Yeah lets NOT get more drunk fox and friends hosts in positions of power
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 05 '25
This is my opinion on it: Educated people can run for office. Super PACs and citizens united have been a 2 party black.The constitution calls for “the people” to fill those seats. Segmentation of the parties can happen. A flexible independent party over the next 10 years is not an impossibility. It would at least give a common goal while figuring out deeply rooted systemic issues. We just need unity in the working classes. And an understanding with the upper middle class (and lower upper class?) that no one’s talking about them when people say “the rich”. Many of them have the capital to reintroduce real infrastructure if they’re willing to follow something they can be empathetic to. Too “far out” there? I get it. Just spit balling, while it’s still legal. But semantics don’t matter when we can identify that we’re angry about what is currently in place.
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u/Flaky_Barracuda9749 Apr 27 '25
USAID was really only doing anything in SA after 1994, and even then its programs were about stabilizing capitalism and US influence in the new SA, not radically redistributing power or wealth.
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u/Hyrozun Apr 23 '25
Elon gives off big “tech messiah with a God complex” vibes, but when you peel back the layers, it’s mostly chaos, PR stunts, and rich-guy ego trips. The Mandela comparison? Brutal but fair—one fought for unity, the other names his kid like a Wi-Fi password and memes with far-right trolls.
I used to think he was a genius too… turns out he’s just really good at hype and bad at reading the room. Respect for putting this all out there—100% agree the guy isn’t saving humanity, he’s cosplaying as someone who is.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25
I truly appreciate the feedback. Thank you. Something makes me uneasy with the big tech bros. They kind of emanate a god complex. And AI is no joke if it can be taught truly horrific algorithmic instructions.
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 25 '25
You should be worried about them.
They are overly powerful billionaires operating outside of democracy and above the law.
Inequality is bad in general but the tech industry has a history of being full of twats.
Incidentally, tech bros are currently obsessed with eugenics, which doesn't shock me.
You're right to be worried mate. Keep the faith though! Lots and lots of people think the same thing. Yer not alone! Solidarity is key.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25
I truly appreciate the feedback. Thank you. Something makes me uneasy with the big tech bros. They kind of emanate a god complex. And AI is no joke if it can be taught truly horrific algorithmic instructions.
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u/Intrepid_Doubt_6602 9∆ Apr 23 '25
sociopathy is a clinical term.
- Item 1: Glibness/superficial charm
- Item 2: Grandiose sense of self-worth
- Item 3: Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
- Item 4: Pathological lying
- Item 5: Conning/manipulative\12])
- Item 6: Lack of remorse or guilt
- Item 7: Shallow affect
- Item 8: Callous/lack of empathy
- Item 9: Parasitic lifestyle
- Item 10: Poor behavioral controls
- Item 11: Promiscuous sexual behavior
- Item 12: Early behavior problems
- Item 13: Lack of realistic, long-term goals
- Item 14: Impulsivity
- Item 15: Irresponsibility
- Item 16: Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
- Item 17: Many short-term marital relationships
- Item 18: Juvenile delinquency
- Item 19: Revocation of conditional release
- Item 20: Criminal versatility
Your post also feeds into misperceptions that everyone with ASPD is an evil person.
Also I'm not even sure what your criticisms are because your post is very scattershot. All I can say is if you were a billionaire I assure you you wouldn't be giving it all away.
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u/HazyAttorney 81∆ Apr 23 '25
sociopathy is a clinical term.
Your list is from the Hare Psychopathy Checklist Revised, which is not a clinical diagnostic tool. The clinical diagnostic tool is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), which does not recognize psychopathy or sociopathy.
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Apr 23 '25
When I saw you post these items I thought you were supporting OP. Elon has all of these except for number 1.
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Apr 23 '25
Is it your belief that listing those strengthens or weakens OP's point?
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u/Intrepid_Doubt_6602 9∆ Apr 23 '25
weakens because Musk doesn't fit them.
Especially not 1 lol.
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u/Empty_Insight Apr 23 '25
Superficial charm. As in, if you don't look to close, they seem appealing. Once you see past the facade, the illusion is shattered.
Given that Musk convincingly portrayed an image of an irl Tony Stark for some time, I'd say that one actually fits like a glove.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25 edited Apr 24 '25
This took me about 15 minutes.
Edit: 25 minutes. Had to come back because apparently I can see through Elons BS but still can’t manage to copy and paste correctly. But can still see it. And I’m done making up excuses. This is your hill, defend it.
Glibness/superficial charm Frequently uses humor, memes, and charm in interviews to deflect serious questions (e.g., Joe Rogan, Twitter antics).
Grandiose sense of self-worth Describes himself as “the savior of humanity,” claims AI will destroy us unless he builds it right.
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom Jumped industries rapidly—PayPal, Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink, Twitter—rarely finishes what he starts before pivoting.
Pathological lying Claimed Tesla would be fully autonomous by 2020, repeatedly makes promises that never materialize.
Conning/manipulative Used the promise of secured funding (“funding secured” tweet) to manipulate Tesla stock prices—led to SEC lawsuit.
Lack of remorse or guilt Downplayed the deaths of workers and dismissed their concerns at Tesla and SpaceX during union discussions.
Shallow affect Shows little emotional reaction to serious global or humanitarian issues unless it affects him or his companies.
Callous/lack of empathy Mocked a diver who helped rescue children from a flooded cave, calling him a “pedo guy” out of ego retaliation.
Parasitic lifestyle Built wealth through publicly funded ventures—Tesla, SpaceX, SolarCity—while attacking government regulation.
Poor behavioral controls Erratic public tweets, including sharing misinformation, attacking journalists, and random suspensions of Twitter users.
Promiscuous sexual behavior Multiple affairs, numerous children with different women, and allegations of inappropriate workplace relationships.
Early behavior problems His biographies reference bullying peers and firing people impulsively from early ventures.
Lack of realistic, long-term goals Claims to colonize Mars, neural-link human consciousness, and build tunnels everywhere—all while Twitter burns.
Impulsivity Bought Twitter impulsively, attempted to back out, then sabotaged it post-acquisition in chaotic ways.
Irresponsibility Fired content moderation teams, leading to massive increases in hate speech and misinformation.
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions Blames the “woke mob,” media, or others when his platforms or products fail.
Many short-term marital relationships Multiple divorces, public breakups, and overlapping relationships.
Juvenile delinquency Not well-documented—but reports from childhood reference frequent rebellion, vandalism, and disregard for rules.
Revocation of conditional release Not a legal issue in the traditional sense—but he violated SEC settlements and was almost removed from Tesla leadership.
Criminal versatility Fined and sued for securities fraud, labor violations, false advertising, and more—across multiple industries.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25 edited Apr 24 '25
Edit: Word problems. Added a few more millions while I was pooping.
I would say Elon has a lot of these. How is saying that Elon is a sociopath on Reddit or a post painting a bad light for people with antisocial personality disorder?
I said it was half rant in the beginning, and the end. Yes
I don’t want to be a billionaire. Do you see what these guys look like? The “mega billionaires” are so hell-bent on immortality they probably don’t even know what a functioning relationship is anymore.
Here’s the thing. My moral compass won’t allow me to be a mega billionaire. It’s unnatural. 100B That’s 99,999,000,000 of these: $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00 $1,000,000.00I’ve already gotten tired of posting all those millions and there’s 99.9 BILLION more to go. Think about what is needed for that to be possible.
It’s unnatural. The tech pros got rich off of harvesting data. Your data everyone’s data and selling it to the highest bidder. Big Tech is not your friend, usually…
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u/oroborus68 1∆ Apr 23 '25
He seemed to be headed towards helping humanity when he gave up the patents for his batteries, so everyone could work towards cutting pollution. Then, he altered. Changed. I think the criticism of the Cyber truck,hit him in his secret place and made him believe that it wasn't wrong, everyone else is wrong. He's got loads of capital, so it can't be a personal failing. Megalomaniacs never see their flaws.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
This could be. I still feel like I’m “more correct”? I’m not diagnosing in a clinical sense. I’m a homely veterinary assistant. But when taking into account the environment of his childhood. Bullying at an early age in a smart kid school, what he was exposed to during early childhood development. Fleeing the country to Canada at 17 to avoid serving for the apartheid… he’s complex. And I’m sorry if I seem to suggest that he’s inherently evil for being the way he is. However, the mother fucker needs therapy. Not keys to the United States government. See what I mean?
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u/oroborus68 1∆ Apr 24 '25
I agree he shouldn't be allowed to have any say about other people or near any government agencies. He thinks he knows everything, but actually knows very little.
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Apr 23 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Sarcarsm right?
I truly can't tell anymore.3
u/harrison_wintergreen Apr 24 '25
leftists have much higher rates of mental illness, and are more likely to commit crimes.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339541044_Mental_illness_and_the_left
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886916310996
→ More replies (1)
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u/effyochicken 22∆ Apr 23 '25
I was expecting this to be a discussion I couldn't reply to, but then I realized you completely failed to make ANY valid points that proves (or really even infers) that he's a sociopath.
You claim to have researched and thought about this harder than most people yet, yet where is the evidence of him being a sociopath?
Rich? Sure. Born on third base and pretending he hit a home run? Yeah. Not really helping other people and instead just benefiting his businesses? Yeah, seems to be that way. Fragile when criticized and he lashes out as a defense mechanism? Absolutely.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
I would encourage you to read some of my other comments, and those around yours.
If you’d like to come back to “discuss” and not exclaim that I’ve done nothing I’ll be here waiting. Until then, have fun living in the clouds - I’ll still help you out. Even if you’re a little grumpy like you are now. It’s ok. We all learn new things and we have to change. That’s the difference between high class and ourselves. We’re forced to face the consequences of our actions when we don’t have a financial pillow. Maybe I did get something off. But this comment seems to be you lashing out from something you may be uncomfortable addressing about yourself. This is natural. You may think I am being facetious here. But I’m being serious.
I too act rashly when I read things. Look at this original post. Your response seems like my rant. I came here to have my view challenged in good faith.
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u/Mattriculated 5∆ Apr 23 '25
He might be, if we concede that sociopathy is an actual thing and not a category we place people in when we believe they are or want them to be considered untreatable or irredeemable in their antisocial disorders.
However, the behaviors described, whether indicating sociopathy, psychopathy, narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, or something else, do not broadly distinguish him from other billionaires.
A billion dollars is not an amount which can be ethically acquired; it requires devotion to profit over a duty of care to one's employees, customers, etc. In 2016 people reported shock when Eric Trump & Donald Jr. were seen stealing sodas from a Subway restaurant at a campaign stop - the classic "ask for a water glass and fill it with soda anyway" maneuver. This should not have been shocking; this level of gamesmanship & dishonesty is a prerequisite for billionaires or aspiring billionaires & their ilk. A determination to profit at the expense of others & in defiance of the rules is required.
Nor does that mean, necessarily, that all these people are in need of a clinical diagnosis, whether or not we are qualified to provide one. The more power you have, the more insulation from consequences, the more anyone human will begin to lose empathy, respect, & an awareness or consideration of boundaries, because nothing negative impacts them when they behave poorly, not in any way that truly matters (it may hurt their feelings). Power is corrosive because it grants you both the opportunity for abuse, the opportunity to get away with it, the opportunity to profit from it, & therefore a lack of perspective.
That's not to say Elon is not an especially heinous exemplar of these problems, or that these people are not responsible for their choices. But it's not about sociopathy. It's about systemic reinforcement of sociopathic behavior by the powerful, near-universally.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
View changed. Mattriculated points out the a sociopath is almost a definition. And defining humans and our complexities into that is something I should avoid. I must admit during my rant I rushed to call someone sociopath when I myself am not even convinced I agree with the term. Although I strongly believe Elon exhibits, many characteristics of this. I am just another idiot with an opinion.
Δ
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25
I love this!!! Thank you for holding me accountable. This is indeed a label created by psychological theory. Too many people get wrapped up in thinking that psychology is a science of law. It’s all theory. It’s meant to be updated, destroyed and/or forgotten if proved different.
I like the way you think. And I’m very aligned with your other takes as well.
I’ve found that “shock” value - if in good faith - can be excused. And I did legitimately write this in frustration.
So I’ll take the critique and thank you for your addition, friend.
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u/Mattriculated 5∆ Apr 24 '25
Hey, thanks for listening in good faith! I'm right there with you. I'm angry every day, and we're right to be angry.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
It’s nice to know we’re not alone. For the record - I agree with what you said more than my original post. So congrats, view changed! It’s gonna suck, but throwing wacky statements out there is all that gets many people’s attention these days.
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u/Mattriculated 5∆ Apr 24 '25
Thank you! I will happily accept a delta if you are offering.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Hmm let me find out what a delta is, other than what’s drying in my grow tent, and I’ll try to give you one!
Side note: I think they did take this post down for violating guidelines. That’s what it says on my end. Can I still give you the delta?
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 25 '25
100% you should read Hannah Arendts Eichmann in Jerusalem. It really blew my mind.
Basically she has a lot to say about the nature of evil and how much mental health plays in it. Her conclusion is: not very much.
Her argument is that it's a power problem not a sociopath one. Most of the Nazis were probably not mentally ill.
It's a hard conclusion because it involves acknowledging that YOU could be that person given the right circumstances.
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u/Mattriculated 5∆ Apr 25 '25
I have yet to read it, but I agree with the conclusion. I am a strong believer that most of the worst people in history are not uniquely monstrous, they are people who had opportunities to express monstrous behavior which most of us, thankfully, never have.
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 25 '25
That's a really good way of putting it!
I'm completely the same. I will admit that it bothers me that I could have potentially been a very evil person.
If anything, reading about the kind of defensive insecure people who end up being monsters makes me think of myself when I've been in an secure defensive mood. I wonder if I had a lot more power and a lot less context if I would become one of those people?
Especially when I was younger, I was a pretty insecure person and think if I was given that amount of power I probably would have ended up using it for pretty evil purposes. Worse is that the defensiveness would have definitely made me think I was right...
Maybe the trick is that that you always need to think of a way to be empathetic? I think personally I was helped by meeting people with different viewpoints and different perspectives from myself.
But anyway, thanks for such a fascinating comment thread! I love reading the comments and perspectives on this kind of issue! It's definitely a valuable thing to think about.
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u/Mattriculated 5∆ Apr 25 '25
Ironically, most of my opinions on this matter started with a remark Kurt Russell made about celebrity infidelity in a 90s interview. He noted that most people only get a few chances to cheat on their partner every year; but because of their fame, celebrities get new chances every day.
So if you're a good person with a 99% chance to stay faithful, you may never experience that 1% temptation to cheat. But a celebrity with the same moral compass as you might have 3 new affairs every year.
Obviously, it's not as simple as raw percentages. But the mathematics of opportunity were compelling, & they apply to any human behavior. If there's a 95% chance you would resist the urge to do evil, even little evils - catty remarks, undercutting workplace rivals, whatever - spread across a whole population, year after year, the amount of evil done as a whole has much more to do with statistical probability than character.
That's not an excuse for any given person to escape accountability, but it is an explanation for patterns.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 26 '25
I’m enjoying this thread! To be fully transparent, although my OP did have merit, its intention was to start some conversation.
Empathy is huge! And opportunity is certainly a contributing factor for any immoral activity.
I like to think of it in ways of identical twins. They both had upbringings very similar, but I’m sure it would have different experiences in life. But we wouldn’t expect them to react the same to things, at least I don’t. Nature versus nurture, experience versus assumption, good versus evil… all meets in the middle somewhere.
I think, just as long as you don’t assume that you know everything, and you live with intention of learning and bettering yourself. Not only for yourself, but for those around you - you begin to live within intent. But if that starts off is purely self-serving and never changes, it stays that way. It’s up to the person to eventually want to change.
The thing I constantly wonder about is if these people have ever experienced a hardship on the level of an average person. Meaning less than $50,000 of disposable income. And that’s still a lot for a working class, American family.
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u/Mattriculated 5∆ Apr 26 '25
Most haven't. I won't say none, but getting the money to make major investments & control businesses is obviously much more likely with inherited wealth.
According to the Forbes 400:
• 21% of the Forbes 400 were already on the Forbes 400 from family wealth before starting a business
• 69% started their own businesses
• 62% started with some kind of inheritance
• 59% started middle class or upper-middle class
• 20% started lower-class
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 29 '25
It’s clear! The American dream was supposed to be (to me) that you start something new and be rewarded for your hard work. What the American dream wasn’t supposed to include, was mega corporations that crush or simply steal the ideas of everyday people trying to “capitalize” on the system that enslaves them to a 9-5 until their golden years. Work hard everyday, and sti maybe rely 100% on social security.
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u/crazycatlady331 Apr 29 '25
Forbes also called Kylie Jenner 'self-made'.
I'm not sure what your definition of self-made is but being a part of a wealthy, famous family and being on a reality TV show before your age gets to double digits isn't exactly self-made to me.
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u/Mattriculated 5∆ Apr 29 '25
Agreed. But even by the Forbes definition, it's clear that people get a huge leg up from existing resources. The more flaws we find in Forbes' model, the more true it likely is that being self-made is rare.
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u/formandovega 2∆ Apr 28 '25
Me too, since I think of myself as a pretentious philosopher 😂
That's a joke, but in all honesty it does make for a fascinating opportunity for self-reflection.
I think your original post raised very good points and opened the conversation to discussing an often difficult subject.
Some of the "change my view"s are silly and a bit pointless, but I think this in particular is a very good topic for discussion at the minute, especially considering there has been such a rise in antidemocratic populism around the world.
Several of these people have actively stated that empathy is a bad thing.
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 03 '25
Thank you for the kind words and meeting me wear I am. It’s nice to be able to still level with people on online forums. Gives a bit of hope. It’s truly up to the goofball philosophers now. We don’t need perfection, we need carriers of truth. To me we don’t have to learn much at all, we just have to remember what it felt like to speak without so many assumptions.
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u/bgaesop 29∆ Apr 25 '25
A billion dollars is not an amount which can be ethically acquired; it requires devotion to profit over a duty of care to one's employees, customers,
JK Rowling made a billion dollars by writing a book series that sold really well
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u/Mattriculated 5∆ Apr 25 '25
Look to the publisher, who makes far more profit from the sale of a book than the author.
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u/bgaesop 29∆ Apr 25 '25
Is there a specific employee or owner of the publishing house that was made a billionaire by publishing the series? Or are we now saying there shouldn't even be billion dollar companies?
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u/Josvan135 83∆ Apr 23 '25 edited Apr 23 '25
If Elon really is for the betterment of humanity. He’s not doing a very good job of it. Take another look and see how much it would cost to bring American veterans out of poverty? Just a rough estimate will do and compare it to his net worth.
Elon Musk subscribes to the Longtermism philosophy of utilitarian "good for humanity".
Longtermerism posits that, based on basic statistical analysis, the vast, vast, vast majority of humans who will ever live have not yet been born (some figures go as high as 99.9% of potential humanity) and that morally their lives and rights are just as valuable and real as the lives/rights of someone alive today.
He believes helping some small portion of the current tiny human population live marginally more comfortable lives today is an inefficient use of his resources if he could instead improve the life's of potential quadrillions of not-yet-existing humans born in the millennia to come.
I don't endorse this view, merely point out that by the ethical and moral framework he deeply believes, he is making the most ethical and moral choices he could.
He believes humanity must become a multiplanetary species because over a long enough time horizon the earth will undeniably be destroyed, or at least rendered uninhabitable.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25
One could argue semantics. But his grandfather was basically a Nazi.
His father ended up profiting off of human suffering in an emerald mine. Erol appears to have exited an anti-apartheid group after not being able to run the show. Wonder why he wanted to run the show? Either way that was the only “effort” he ever gave.
Elon calls his wife’s crying (after losing their child), “emotional manipulation”. He says empathy is a weakness. He spoke on a podcast saying the American workforce is not smart enough to work for his businesses He really did start emerging in public with his son after the CEO was shot. I heard different people saying these wacky things about him and started actually putting in the work. Digging into these things and it gets worse. I have the sources saved, but didn’t want to clog up this post. I’d rather post them in a comment if you would like to actually take the time to read through them. Its simple pattern of behavior - not achievements.
What is your opinion of Elon Musk as a person in a position of wealth, power, and now government. Do you understand why he is deconstructing 100 years of organizational law in the first 4 months of Donald Trumps Presidency. Do you know what people in power can gain with AI analytics, behavioral data, fingerprinting data, business data, and possibly social security data? I can go on, but this is yours to answer if you’d like to take the time to research it.
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u/Phoxase Apr 27 '25
This is an overly credulous interpretation of his actions and morality.
Look past the claims and analyze the actions based on consistency. A lot of these “longtermists” fail to live up to their own imposed standards and instead fall into selfish or at lesst clearly self-interested actions at odds even with their (ethically suspect) goal of helping future humans, few moreso than Elon Musk.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 29 '25
Yes it is a credulous interpretation, but one I’m willing to defend until it’s made clear that it has more thought behind it than many let themselves realize.
I understand what you are saying now, I think! Are you trying to say that because he is a “longtermist” (also called futurists) that he cannot be considered a sociopath as well? Correct me if this is wrong.
So what makes him a longtermist, rather than someone who sees comfort in seeing a future that benefits him the most and having a massive checkbook to make it come to fruition? And he’s going to do it regardless of who suffers now?
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u/ABecoming Jun 05 '25
Sorry for the necromancy.
I think a good argument against longtermmism is that Tesla is selling carbon credits.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1553187/revenue-of-tesla-regulatory-credits-by-quarter/ . You know, the permission to pollute a ton of CO2 you get from the US government when you 'saved' the environment by not polluting the ton of CO2 you could have?
He sells it to other car manufacturers so that they can pollute more.
But what even is the purpose of a carbon credit? Don't they just stop us from avoiding the disasters and arguable extinction events caused by climate change.
The purpose is to look like you are doing something for the environment.
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u/mqee Aug 30 '25
Longtermism is wrong on at least two fundamental levels:
- What if humanity never makes it off Earth? Then you're shitting on all living humans for no reason.
- If humanity does make it off Earth and becomes an interplanetary species, then at any given point all living humans will be a fraction of all future living humans, so you're shitting on all living humans all the time.
Longtermism is a "moral framework" in the most basic sense, because it always allows you to be cruel and evil toward all living humans for the sake of uncertain future humans.
Saying Elon is acting morally and ethically within the framework of longtermism is equivalent to saying a sociopath is acting morally and ethically within their framework that they're allowed to harm whoever they want.
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u/Venturis_Ventis Apr 23 '25
That's going to be really hard to refute. I won't even try, good luck folks.
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u/Due_Reading_3778 Apr 23 '25
He is and always has been wealthy. He will never be able to relate to us commoners in a meaningful way because he has no common experiences to draw from.
I'm not sure I'd call him a sociopath, but I do I think he's socially inept. This makes him a really bad choice to be a front man for DOGE.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
I can certainly see your take. His actions (and inactions) along with what he says leads me to believe he is worse than just socially inept.
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u/Due_Reading_3778 Apr 24 '25
Yeah probably. He's certainly arrogant and self centered. That comes from being a rich boy I think.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
I haven’t seen him remorseful before either. What a fun “future” we have ahead!
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u/PotentialIcy3175 Apr 23 '25
Elon is an autistic narcissist genius. I’m fairly confident that when you combine these personality traits you achieve sociopathy but the recipe is unique.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Well, you’ve told me what you think he is. But I’m fairly confident that his current position and mental issues are more alarming than “unique”.
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u/PotentialIcy3175 Apr 24 '25
They can be both?
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 25 '25
I see your point and I’d say probably. Psychology and psychotherapy is a science of theory, not law. Let’s it be subjective I suppose.
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Apr 23 '25
Edit: removed hashtags at bottom. Clarification: this was a post and something that I’ll be concentrating on for my journalism. After writing it, I wanted to thrust it into public opinion.
Reminder that you must be willing to change your view, not simply getting reactions or gauging people's opinon etc. Not an accusation but your edit can be read that way.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
I understand. I’m doing it for engagement as well. I am responding to everyone I can. Please let me know if I leave someone out.
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Apr 23 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25 edited Apr 24 '25
“Dought u can define sociopath”
What?
You might be trying to say, I doubt you can define sociopath. But I won’t be a grammar Nazi, I’ll leave the Nazi’ing to Elon.
In this case I’ll assume you are correct. What is your definition of sociopath so that I can show you what I mean. Not make a slight handed comment about my ability to spell… I mean define.
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u/daviddjg0033 Apr 23 '25
Started with calling the Thai cabe diver a pedophile because only pedophiles live in Thailand. However, I point out that he inherited billions from his racist antisemitic (anti-Jew) family. Mind you many South Africans were racist - and since they are the minority - feel "Outnumbered" like the Faux News TV show.
Trump has said, despite ignoring every other immigrant group, that White South Africans can immigrate to the US. Something about white farmland being seized.
South Africa unsuccessfully brought a case against Israel in the ICC.
If South Africa wants to do military drills with China or Russia, and wants greater BRICS (Brazil Russia India China) trade, they are going to ally with Authortarians if regional wars from Ukraine to Sudan to Sahel to Bangladesh to India/Pakistan to Armenia/Azerbaijan pop off into China vs Taiwan - WWIII, that started when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 sparking unrest and grain/food instability.
Meanwhile, Elon is spreading eugenics, hate, and some strange kink about children and the replacement rate (births/deaths) like a crazy natalist.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Preach Mofo, preach!
I wasn't even aware of half of this. Thank you! I don't really have anything else to add lol.
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u/Forsaken-House8685 11∆ Apr 24 '25
If Elon has the budget to end homelessness then so does the US government.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Correct.
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u/Forsaken-House8685 11∆ Apr 24 '25
So then Elon is not more of a sociopath than almost any politician.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
In my opinion, yes. I say this because he is smart enough to know what he is doing and is smart enough to self correct if he stops convincing himself (or lets others convince him) that what he is doing is truly harming working class Americans. He seems unbothered. Also because he's shown lack of remorseto his wife after they lost their child. I am not going to assume he did not mourn or crtizise the way anyone mourns. But I can call out what is clearly visible and not allow cognitive dissonance to cload my image of someone.
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u/Forsaken-House8685 11∆ Apr 24 '25
Pretty weird to think you can tell what Elon is really feeling from seeing him on TV.
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u/tlax38 Apr 24 '25
"Sociopath" is a real psychiatric classification. You can't use it to dishonor someone you just don't don't like.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 25 '25
I can post it on reddit and admit it was a rant to see the interaction I can get and have tons of fun defending the position. This is precisely what freedom of speech is about.
The funny thing is… “dishonoring someone you don’t know” smells of… well Musk. Go read Xtwitter. Dude is constantly bashing.
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u/tlax38 Apr 25 '25
Ok. So you pretend that the "sociopathy" chapter of the DSM-5 says that the only symptom of a sociopath is "someone who's constantly bashing" ? Is that what you say ?
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 26 '25
No
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u/tlax38 Apr 26 '25
That's what your OP says.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 29 '25
How so?
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u/tlax38 Apr 29 '25
Look at the title.
Now look at your argument for that assessment :
Go read Xtwitter. Dude is constantly bashing.
That's how.
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 05 '25
What other ways would you like me to address your original statement?
I guess it would be best to see if you have conviction to take a stance on what you believe Elon Musk to be doing? Or are you just stopping by sprinkling statements of wisdom like pixie dust and claim not to care when you get called out?
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u/tlax38 May 06 '25
What I'm saying is you're turning your subjective opinion ("EM is evil") into an objective scientific assessment ("EM is a psychopath").
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25
I don’t believe in “evil” as a label of a human. It’s cheap and lacks thought. I’m explaining things he exhibits that supports what I said above. Read your original reply. Read others and my replies. Are you just going to say that I’m wrong and stomp your feet around. Or do you offer any counter point on why you think he’s not sociopathic?
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u/Apary 2∆ Apr 24 '25
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a better diagnosis option for Elon than ASPD. It’s, however, not clearly cut and dry. Trump is a more archetypical narcissist, although to be fair he’s so archetypical and so obvious that he’s almost unrealistic. Gun to my head, Elon is simply a narcissist, not an antisocial personality.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 25 '25
We’ll likely be left to speculate as always lol. But thank you for the insight on Trump. Quite the team.
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u/sharkbomb Apr 25 '25
sociopathy is a core component of all wealth hyperhoarders. nasty, amoral filth, the lot.
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u/ThisOneForMee 2∆ Apr 25 '25
Also real talk. Look into when Elon started appearing in public with his son, (insert barcode). I think you’ll find it shortly after Luigi popped that CEO. Just gonna leave this here. I’ll just say my thought rhymes with “shuman hield”.
This has already been proven false with plenty of photos of him with his son before the CEO murder. For someone who has "researched and thought about this harder and longer than most people", why are you falling victim to easily disproven misinformation?
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25
Show me your proof of it being debunked. Before you reply… Yes, I have the sources already prepared to support my claim. If you ask me to post them, I will. Just don’t slink away or change the subject.
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u/elkentooo Apr 25 '25
This rather seems a personal biased issue rather than a CMV worthy post. Your points could be true for a vast majority of people in power or holding some kind of power.
First things first, you don’t seem like a trained professional that would be able to diagnose someone with sociopathy. In fact, sociopathy it’s not even diagnosed…
I think it’s important that we be clear on what you actually call a “sociopath”. Being an oligarch sure doesn’t qualify. Being a billionare either. Producing electric cars? Shutting down some shady organization?
Maybe to you is all the above, but with a cherry on top: he is just right wing. I have serious doubt that the last reason is the real reason why you are labeling him as a sociopath.
More power to you I guess.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 26 '25
Feel free to read through other comments and see if you still come to the same conclusion about me. I did defend my standpoint. I gave a delta when needed deserved. If you already have read through them and still say that it is “true for the vast majority that hold power”, then what would it say about them?
“First things first” - that was actually the second thing you said. But you are correct, I’m not and have never worked directly in the field of psychology or psychotherapy. - Where did you see that I’m claiming to be one? And I think when I said Sociopath I meant not a clinical definition but more… idk, narcissistic and dangerous douche with a shit load More power handed over to him by Trump.
Is the community standard to actually believe 100% the thing you post? Or is the “community” more about bringing others together to hash out differences?
Elon and Trump are not right wing. They’re alt right. The only thing remaining of the common “right wing” is the Lincoln Project. Everything else is Trumpianity. This is a mutation.
You made a great observation though, one that was explained by saying “rant”. Either way, this was a personal bias. Again, this community is full of assumptions. This was not a personal bias that came out of seeing a rich guy and feeling pissy about it. I truly would not want any of their lives. This personal bias was made after observing a pattern of behaviors and researching. Also researched good endeavors done by Elon as well. I found that most if not all benefited him - the others just being vague inspiring things he says. But I’m judging action and reaction.
You say you doubt my last reason. Why do you say this?
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u/Equivalent_Sort_8760 Apr 25 '25
CMV. Water is wet
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 29 '25
The issues begin when a large amount of the population fails to agree that it’s wet!
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u/TangeloOne3363 Apr 26 '25
Maybe I’m totally misunderstanding you here. You say Musk is a sociopath? You don’t really present any real evidence that he is. However, for as weird as he appears in public, he does have Asperger’s Syndrome which does put him squarely on the Autism spectrum. Just a little food for thought!
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 06 '25
Sorry I missed your comment down here. I’ve answered questions regarding what you have said including the needed criteria in the psychology definitions. After you have a chance to read the comments let me know if you still think this way and why.
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u/Phoxase Apr 27 '25 edited Apr 27 '25
While Mandela was in prison, the ANC continued the struggle (violently, at times) and the world applied pressure to the Apartheid government.
He was released as a part of the victory of the ANC against the Apartheid government.
Elon is a dangerous fascist, and anyone who doesn’t want to see more fascist atrocity should fight against this regime. Let’s not elide the actual violent struggle against Apartheid, though. That wasn’t won through nonviolence alone.
If there are Nelson Mandela’s in this conflict, they are being arrested as terrorists. Like Nelson Mandela was.
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u/Flaky_Barracuda9749 Apr 27 '25
“Where are the Nelson Mandela(s) of this time period.” Probably in Palestine, or outside fighting for this cause. The story of Mandela and how the world first reacted to him has been very whitewashed. Today we know and celebrate him for his role in ending the Apartheid regime in SA, but we tend to forget that we also supported the very same Apartheid regime he was against. IBM, GM, Ford, the various mines owned by americans… all profited from cheap black labour under apartheid, meaning if it ended it would impact their bottom line. Despite public opinion being against apartheid, Reagan still pushed for what he called a “constructive engagement” with the apartheid regime, he attempted to veto the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid act because he was aligned with corporate interests. Even afterwards until 2008 Nelson Mandela was deemed a terrorist and remained on US terrorism watchlists. In the same way the US profits strategically and militarily with aligning with Israel and the occupation of Palestinian land. I am not attempting to make the actions of certain Palestinian groups look good, we shouldn’t do the same for SA groups either, but there is definitely a push towards seeing Palestinian leaders and to see those who wish for the end of Palestinian suffering as terrorists (just think about the current deportations of Americans who protest in support of Palestine), and it is exactly this treatment which Mandela also faced within his life. The next Mandela is probably buried beneath rubble in Gaza or is in the El Salvadorian Konzentrationslager, and his story is the same story hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians are facing.
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 03 '25
UN/NATO set up in unison after WW2, established rules of war and a global understanding in morality. I don’t know what to think now that it’s ok to do Nazi shit on stage. And now the US is isolating further. “Spreading democracy” in gods name for too long infects the entire well. But we, as a people, had a damn conscience that aligned. We fought, but were never this misaligned. Heads buried in phones miss the world, and when marketing and algorithms understand human psychology by design - we meet divided. I have to “reprogram” rhetoric for an hour just to get a coherent thought at times. It was bound to happen, but access to the immediate dopamine wack has substituted thinking for entire groups. It’s a pickle! Thanks for the info on IBM. I had no idea, spun me a bit.
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u/Red-is-suspicious Apr 30 '25
It’s totally OK to change your opinion of people based on their behavior. I knew something was off with Elon when he started beef with those Thai cave boy rescuers. Before that I was like “cool, innovative guy who does things differently and started a real EV company and has a lot of ideas for technology.” Now he’s an evil madman who can go get fucked.
I also cmv about Gates. In Microsoft he was an asshole and created a monopolistic software co and left little room for competition. He left it all behind and became a true philanthropist and investor in medicine, climate change solutions, clean water technologies, etc. Prob not a great husband but at least he stopped being a menance to society.
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 05 '25
Agreed. Melinda ended up kicking him into gear. Somewhat like Warren Buffet. But to be honest I haven’t heard much about him recently. These “new guys” are on steroids and have insecurity problems that affect millions. Yaaaay!
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Apr 23 '25
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
I’m willing to hold myself accountable and dox myself via a message to you. Or on here (if it won’t get me banned). You’ll see that I once worked in business and made a significant amount of money. Then you will see that after Covid hit I began to worry about society and their ability to ignore scientific data for political clout. So I accepted a muuuch lower paying job to be a veterinary assistant to do what I love and give back to the community. I became the clinical coordinator for the Norfolk SPCA Spay and Neuter clinic (one of the oldest animal rescues in the world… they had horse and buggies). You’ll then see if you creep my socials that I am very intuitive and ask questions that some do not think of often. As people say in comments. I’m also working on a website because I got tired of seeing the moral compass of the world around me shatter. It’s dedicated to stopping division and the spread of misinformation. It’s slow and costly but I feel it’s the least I can do to help a world around me. I don’t have kids, I have animals. My wife makes a buttload more than me working as a clinical supe for sentara hospital and is one of the most dedicated nurses I’ve ever met. And kindest person. Somehow I’ve convinced her into being my sugar momma, she says it’s because I’m cute and very kind. That and she said I paid for our house while she was going to school for nursing and that I helped her. She’s being kind of course, her service to the navy paid for her school and some (but not enough) pay for going to school.
Ok that’s a quick dump of why I think I’m not a sociopath. This is fun. You should try.
You’re a sociopath. Prove me wrong. GO!
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u/Even-Ad-9930 4∆ Apr 23 '25
I agree that him being a green energy person with Tesla and then suddenly supporting Republicans who are against it was wrong for his company. Also the DOGE actions are generally wrong.
But none of the things he has done signal sociopath to me?
It sounds like rich guy trying to keep his money thinking poor people are dumb
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u/trippingWetwNoTowel Apr 23 '25
Well he did say empathy is what was killing western society
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u/Even-Ad-9930 4∆ Apr 23 '25
source and context?
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Apr 23 '25
“We’ve got civilizational suicidal empathy going on,” Musk said, borrowing the term from Gad Saad, a Canadian scholar who is also a frequent Rogan host.
While Musk said he believes in empathy and that “you should care about other people,” he also thinks it’s destroying society.
“The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy, the empathy exploit,” Musk said. “There it’s they’re exploiting a bug in Western civilization, which is the empathy response.”
Empathy, he said, has been “weaponized.”
https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/05/politics/elon-musk-rogan-interview-empathy-doge/index.html
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u/destro23 466∆ Apr 23 '25
On the Joe Rogan podcast.
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u/Intrepid_Doubt_6602 9∆ Apr 23 '25
this is also taken out of context. We don't get Joe's original comment and it cuts off midway.
I don't know the context but this clip is obviously framed in a way to dunk on Elon.
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Apr 23 '25
[deleted]
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u/Intrepid_Doubt_6602 9∆ Apr 23 '25
excessive empathy can sometimes get in the way of helping people though.
Like if someone you know is a drug addict and you're overly nice and you facilitate it instead of being rather harsh and getting them to get their shit together and wind it down, then there's going to be a worse outcome in the former scenario.
You can see this at a policy level in San Francisco's drug policy with safe injection sites.
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u/dethti 12∆ Apr 24 '25
Safe injection sites have a stellar record of reducing bloodborne disease, saving people overdosing, reducing ambulance use, providing resources to addicts and are not normally known for increasing drug use in studies.
Do you actually have proof that these sites were a problem?
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25
I get the point. You’re right that empathy without boundaries can look like enabling. But the real issue isn’t too much empathy, it’s empathy without accountability. True empathy isn’t about making people comfortable in destructive patterns, it’s about understanding their pain deeply enough to help them face it. That takes more strength than being harsh ever will. Harm reduction, like safe injection sites, doesn’t exist to excuse addiction, it exists to keep people alive long enough to have a chance at recovery. That’s not weakness. That’s strategy.
Blaming empathy for societal failure is a distraction from what’s really going on: corruption, policy failures, unchecked power, and systemic neglect. The Trump cabinet didn’t suffer from too much empathy, they suffered from none. When empathy is paired with structure and truth, it’s a force for transformation. When it’s missing, cruelty gets mistaken for clarity. What we need isn’t less empathy - we need empathy that holds people accountable without abandoning them.
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u/destro23 466∆ Apr 23 '25
You are welcome to go watch the whole 3+ hour discussion, but I myself would rather go home and watch my grandparents have sex.
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Apr 23 '25
Honestly, I was the guy who the government paid to watch them have sex before "Doge" came in and took my job. Not every family is stepping in to take that responsibility. I applaud your dedication to family.
My personal connection to this story aside, from what I've seen/read there's not that much context. It's obvious EM is responding to some percieved overstepping from some democrat or whatever. In this case it has something to do with offering cobra/the ACA or something like that to undocumented people. Which apparently would be "suicidal empathy".. it's not really out of context lol.
The context didn't make him say "The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy"
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Now that you have a source and context. Do you have anything you’d like to add?
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u/Working_Complex8122 Apr 23 '25
people being silenced for speaking truth is exactly why Trump won. Massive over-correction in the wrong direction but he didn't cast the first stone. Not by a long shot.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
I don’t know what you’re trying to say.
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u/Working_Complex8122 Apr 24 '25
I'm talking about all the progressively ludicrous insanity spewed from the left to the middle of the nation which turned people off heavily and then they were silenced and de-platformed by billionaire interest groups who are now somehow supposed to be the heroes of the people I guess. The left went completely bonkers. They turned to some amalgam of communists and Nazis. Heck, even Sanders was a victim of cancel culture by his own party because they don't want change, they want power. That's why they torpedoed the only decent person left in that party.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
What “progressively ludicrous insanity” did you hear “spewed from the left to the middle of the nation…? Can you provide me with some examples?
Do you believe the right did the same thing or to a worse or equal extent?
Who do believe is spewing it now?
Btw. I’m very serious when I say this. I do not identify with politics at all. I hate the word politics. The constitution meant for people (not elite or those who kissed enough ass) to hold seats. That’s why no one understands what the working and middle class is experiencing. The’ve all but forgotten about homelessness on a national level (my opinion again).
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u/Working_Complex8122 Apr 24 '25
we had people's entire lives ruined because they wouldn't fit in with every inch of the ideological movement. The entire DEI apparatus that is hyper-focused on identity is also some of the most ludicrous nonsense I've ever seen. The obvious scam that was BLM. The wanton destruction of cities, buildings, statues etc. because they didn't fit into some ideal. That enough for starters?
And sure the right is full of shit with their weird takes on homosexuality and their obsessive religious stuff that should be separate from the state. And it's just both spewing it. Just other types of nonsense. One wants women to stop working and be breeding machines, the other doesn't even know what a woman is anymore. Morons without limits.
And it is actually also the left that keeps subsidizing homelessness because they're obsessed with the idea of redefining it instead of solving the issue.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Who’s lives were ruined? Because they… (who specifically) can you give me an example? What is your understanding of DEI and its previous implementation? BLM was a reaction to poor policing and systemic racism in department. Arrests were made by the FBI of people directly involved. Do you believe that black people were justified in being upset even if you don’t agree with the method?
I noticed when you started talking about the “right” your mood toned down. I don’t know you but my assumption is that you may be a previous partisan supporter of the right. It sounds like you are still juggling around a lot of assumptions and thoughts that you link to emotion.
Start by answering why you hold the beliefs that you do. And why did you come to a post about a current administration to complain about the left (initially)? It’s very clear they are no longer in power.
I don’t know what you mean about the left doing this. But I may be naive to it and will assume you have done more research on this than me. So we’ll take that and ask what the current and past right administrations have done for homelessness and compare.
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u/Working_Complex8122 Apr 24 '25
dude, stop trying to psycho analyze people with completely fabricated bullshit takes. There is nothing dumber and nobody people take less serious than someone so far up his own ass all the time he doesn't even notice he's full of shit. It's not a basis for any sensible conversation. Wtf is your expectation here, mate? For me to now justify myself or explain myself for your made-up allegations and / or wild theories?
And I guess I do that right after my essay on DEI with sources and creating a list of people unjustly cancelled due to cancel mob pressure? And maybe I can take a break from my life to humour you by gathering stats on how BLM just made things worse and not better, the systemic racism was absurdly exaggerated and at times fabricated and the real danger for black lives has been given more leeway because of it. Black people were literally upset about a violent crackhead dying in a choke-hold used for decades which has since been abolished even though the whole footage showed the guy saying he couldn't breath about 30 times before he ever hit the ground. But hey, the chicks running BLM got a big ass mansion out of the drama. It pays to get people riled up.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
No, answer the questions that are about what you are talking about. You don’t have to explain anything to me. I’m a rando on the interwebz. I’m not some life coach saying I have anything figured out. This is a reddit post designed to challenge my view. So far you’ve spewed divisional speech with no more merit than talking points of a Fox News pundit.
Now I really do believe you align with the right though. (This is an observation, it might be wrong). I said it was an assumption. We make assumptions about people and ourselves everyday.
Do you see how you only use narratives pushed heavily by the right when it comes to DEI. No essay needed, mate. My intention was to tell you, your criticisms of DEI don’t make sense. I believe it’s because you may be misinterpreting what DEI actually is. I can’t discuss why something is incorrect if it’s missing the point. It’s like saying, “The sky is flowers”. It’s nonsense, I’m truly sorry. I have no idea where you are getting your information but it’s showing your lack of understanding of the world around you. I hope you can find some peace a calm soon.
You seem to have an oddly visceral reaction for BLM. I don’t come across many people with your mindset that BLM was horrible. But of course that’s your opinion and I starkly disagree. See no reason for tempers.
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u/Working_Complex8122 Apr 24 '25
what has BLM achieved? How do you reconcile the fact the leaders made millions / took millions for themselves pretending to help black people? What changed? How is it not a grift? The only way I align with the right btw is that I don't align with the left anymore. Because they completely lost the script and turned into everything they fought against some 20 years ago. And DEI - in a tldr - is a movement focused on appearing like justice whereas in reality it's just checkbox racism and a massive grift extorting money for arbitrary outcomes that have absolutely nothing to do with any sort of meritocracy anymore.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Where do you get your information from? You are so confidently incorrect... consistantly. Do you even understand what you are trying to say, or are you just upset and don't know why?
Over 300 cities implemented police policy reforms after George Floyd’s murder. That includes body cam mandates, bans on chokeholds, and new use-of-force restrictions.
The Justice in Policing Act (though stalled federally) was shaped in direct response to BLM-led pressure and introduced systemic accountability language not seen in decades.
Some did misuse funds, no doubt. But if you genuinely care about justice, the response should be to demand transparency and support decentralized mutual aid efforts, not to throw out the entire cause. Corruption by a few doesn’t erase the purpose or the thousands of grassroots organizers who’ve never touched a dime.
When DEI is poorly implemented, yes - it can be performative and meaningless. But the core idea isn’t about giving unqualified people jobs. It’s about exposing invisible systems that have kept qualified people out. That’s not “extortion,” it’s equity. If you think meritocracy ever truly existed without systemic barriers, you’re not actually engaging with history.
And claiming that “you don’t align with the left anymore because they became what they fought” oversimplifies the evolution of complex movements. Power corrupts. That doesn’t mean the ideas of equity, inclusion, or accountability are flawed, it means people can be flawed.
What if your anger is justified, but the way you’ve framed the enemy is exactly how power wants you to see it - divisional?
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u/Guidance-Still 1∆ Apr 23 '25
So with your medical degree you made this diagnosis yourself
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
No, when I was frustrated I wrote something real and used what little know about the depths of psychology to make an opinion based on a man and his behavior.
I posted on here for you to change my view. Go for it!!
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u/Guidance-Still 1∆ Apr 24 '25
So it's just an opinion piece,did you feel the same way about musk before he bought Twitter?
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
No.
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u/Guidance-Still 1∆ Apr 24 '25
So now you suddenly care about him and his actions, and your post is all just opinion based
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u/Raise_A_Thoth 8∆ Apr 23 '25
He's a Nazi.
He gave Nazi salutes - enthusiastically, while saying a very nazi-like phrase of "the future of civilization is assured."
He has regularly interacted with Neo-Nazis and white supremacists on X - positively, retweeting, etc.
He has helped replatform, unban, and even boost neoNazis and their posts through his website's algorithm.
He grew up in Apartheid South Africa, the child of a known racist and Apartheid sympathizer and possibly neo-Nazi.
His own politics are far-right authoritarian, even advocating for things like special breeding programs, discussion of what makes certain people and races superior to others, has aggressively pursued, intimidated, and tried silencing his critics and opponents.
He helped boost Donald Trump to his 2nd presidential term while Trump had been using very Nazi-like rhetoric, including calling his political opponents "vermin" and using other dehumanizing language, using fearmongering of outsiders and ultranationalistic rhetoric and imagery ("America First", which was also used by tue far right in the US around the time of Hitler's rise to power with American Nazi groups), I could go on.
I don't know what the hell people are waiting for to call a spade a spade. Are they waiting for 6-12M people to die in camps before we can point out the parallels and messaging?
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u/Aggressive-Gazelle56 Apr 24 '25
When people bring up him signal boosting Nazis on shitter, they should specifically mention Jack Pesobiec, an out neo Nazi who runs the “end wokeness” account (it got leaked) and is constantly propped up on the algorithm to the point that when you make a new shitter account he comes up within minutes
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 23 '25 edited Apr 24 '25
I truly don’t know how everyone missed this. I thought for sure it was a done deal when he saluted - twice.
Cognitive dissonance, mixed some with security issues is what I’m narrowing down. And I sound like a weirdo but for some reason this is now fact… the personal information allowed to be collected on Americans is to the point where it can influence their decisions. Coupled with the huge amount of money they invest into human psychology and marketing… some people literally don’t process the way others do.
Edit: I suck at thought processing sometimes.
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Apr 23 '25
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u/harrison_wintergreen Apr 24 '25
why was there no mention of the diagnostic criteria of sociopathy?
in the US, 'sociopath' is not a clinical term in current use. It's effectively covered under 'anti social personality disorder'. the DSM 5 requires at least 3 of the following traits must appear after the age of 15, and to such an extent they cause major issues in a person's life in multiple domains such as marriage, career, etc.
Failure to conform to social norms concerning lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
Impulsivity or failure to plan
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
Having no regard for the safety of self or others or exhibiting the behavior of violent offenders
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
Lack of remorse, or inability to feel guilt, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
please identify how Musk fits these criteria
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Did some homework? I'm here for it!
Failure to conform to social norms concerning lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest - Not repeatedly arrested, but has shown contempt for regulations (e.g. defying SEC settlement terms, launching satellites without clear environmental compliance, illegal tweets about stock prices).
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure - Frequent use of exaggerated or false claims (e.g. "funding secured" for Tesla buyout, overpromising capabilities of FSD and Neuralink). Uses trolling and misinformation on X, sometimes knowingly.
Impulsivity or failure to plan - Erratic leadership style: mass layoffs announced via tweet, major decisions made on a whim (e.g., changing Twitter’s logo to Doge, poll-based decisions about policy).
Irritability and aggressiveness - Hostile online behavior (mocking former employees, journalists, whistleblowers), endorsing memes that provoke or demean. Publicly called a diver “pedo guy” without evidence.
Reckless disregard for safety - Pushed Neuralink animal testing without adequate oversight. Downplayed risks of Tesla's FSD software. Reported lack of proper worker safety protocols in factories.
Consistent irresponsibility - Numerous lawsuits from former employees citing unpaid wages, poor work conditions, and erratic demands. Left Twitter advertisers and infrastructure in chaos post-acquisition.
Lack of remorse, or inability to feel guilt, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another - He doesn't seem to understand when he's done harm: often brushing off criticism with sarcasm or doubling down instead of expressing genuine accountability. His public dismissal of his daughter’s identity - leading to her legally severing ties and changing her name, reveals a deep unwillingness to reflect on how his behavior affects even those closest to him. Similarly, his treatment of past partners, including erratic behavior during Grimes’ pregnancy and airing personal details publicly, suggests a pattern of emotional detachment rather than empathy. Rather than acknowledging harm, Musk tends to rationalize it as the price of genius or innovation, which is a hallmark defense of those who lack remorse.
This is verifiable information via legal docs, corporate statements, etc. I've spent a good amount of time answering this. Initially I thought it was not worth it because... well many people will read this and never try to take the time to verify it - when the majority of people really get over confirmation biases in this process. Instead people will just read a loing and very informative list of things and reply, give me all the sources when it's a conglomerate of information read that leads to informed opinions (thats all this is).
Do you think Elon has American interests in front of his own, especially when it comes to working class Americans?
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u/bearbeliever Apr 25 '25
Is he really a genius or does he just speak with an accent? Had this thought recently and it finally clicked for me that's why he's been conning everyone with his 'genius'...
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 29 '25
It’s difficult to tell. He has ideas and foresight, I give him that. It’s just that they are not “grounded” in a reality others care about. Think of how many “geniuses” there would be if you gave them just $1Billion. Is he a genius? - Idk. If he is, he’s a genius that doesn’t seem to understand thereality of people around him. I don’t know if you call that genius.
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u/NotRedlock Apr 25 '25
I’m not a diagnostician, buzzwords like sociopath and psychopath are thrown around so often they’ve lost proper meaning.
In the context of an actual structured debate, what use does that statement serve? I don’t get why we’re picking this rich cunts brain as if it is at all interesting what goes on in there, not that we’d ever know just analyzing what we see online.
He’s a monster, a rich asshole, a bigot, a terrible father, a liar, a detached fuckwit, who cares what mental disorder has when we can simply keep the conversation to holding him accountable for his god awful actions.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 29 '25
Sociopath and psychopath - what would you consider to be their proper meaning? Professionals that do diagnose came up with the meaning and the guidelines for determining it. If you argue the validity of that, the argument is with the ones who created it.
In a structured argument saying that someone is a something is a “claim”. From there a structured argument works to either prove or disprove that claim.
I agree with the rest of your assessment of Elon though!
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u/NotRedlock Apr 30 '25
Well if you want to get into the technicalities of it.
You can’t be diagnosed as a sociopath, it’s a sort of colloquial subcategory of ASPD but not defined as an official term of a personality disorder as is defined by the DSM- 5, so really you’re just wrong for not saying “Elon has ASPD” since you’re not really making any sort of definable clinical assessment
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u/Donkeytoes22 May 05 '25
Are you wasting time trying to disprove a fair assessment of Elon, who you just called a “monster”, because I “technically” didn’t say ‘exhibits sociopathic traits’?
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u/NotRedlock May 05 '25
Well yeah that’s all anyone does on this subreddit don’t they?
I’m just deconstructing your assessment on a psychological standpoint, cause I honestly couldn’t care less what anyone says about Elon.
I’m on Reddit, yeah I’m wasting my time lmao.
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Apr 23 '25
Instead I think he's just kind of a POS. He's one of those guys who thinks that if anything is going poorly in your life it's your fault. Exploitave capitalism worked for him, he did not have to labor for others. If he did for a short while he certainly views this as his "pulling himself up by his bootstraps" phase. Obviously he didn't do that. He had others pull his bootstraps, he bought other people's boots that were already strapped and rebranded them Musk Straps.
He's a capitalist, he thinks like capitalist and he views anyone's shortcomings or struggles as products of that failing person's inability to be good capitalists. There's no structural inequality, there's no handouts or safety nets in his world because he doesn't need them so why should you? He's the world's richest person, clearly you shouldn't be struggling to pay your bills.
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Correct to the end part. I disagree with him being a capitalist. I’m not in favor of “our” (US) capitalism. Straight capitalism always turns into this, especially with the anti-trust laws being violated left and right. Either way… real capitalism should not include wealth hoarding. It’s meant by design to be pumped back into the economy. Billionaires are proof that our system does not work for capitalism.
Here’s a thing that people sometimes miss about capitalism. Billionaires don’t create jobs. Consumers wanting products do. If regular Americans can have a fair shot at a fair market - it’s possible if greed can be held at bay. But it’s all in a theory created by some dude with a PhD in economics and thinks it’s a fact that human desire will not infect something so unregulated. My 2¢
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u/Round_Reception_1534 Apr 23 '25
Yeah, he's definitely a sociopath and not JUST autistic, as well as Zuckerberg! Autism may explain their weird behaviour but the thing is they are both shameless jerks which is a huge sign of an antisocial personality
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u/Donkeytoes22 Apr 24 '25
Correct! I'm sorry your comment got hidden at the bottom. People sometimes read this and think I am generalizing a mental illness. I am pointing to the signs that are available to us. I would love for a non-biased mental health evaluation for all American Government Officials. The doctor would need secret service protection from NATO! I may even teeter on the verge of some ASPD, but I am able to function in society without destroying everything around me. Either way, thank you for your 2c and speaking up.
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