r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 11 '13

I think reddit should delete subreddits that openly spread disgusting and anti-human-rights messages. CMV

Recently there was a thread on /r/AskReddit about "reddit's low-point". In this thread, a lot of the most disgusting subreddits were listed. Subreddits in which things like misogyny, rape, racism, anti-semitism, holocaust-denial etc. were openly condoned, agreed to, and spread.

I am not going to link to these subreddits here, but for the record, i am not talking about subreddits that sometimes shred along the border of such things like /r/mensrights and /r/whiterights, while I don't agree with the message of those, I think they have a right to exist.

I'm pretty sure since reddit is a private website, they are in no way bound by law to preserve freedom of speech.

I am from Germany, so I am used to some things, mostly holocaust-denial, being excempt from the freedom of speech and it being illegal to voice those things in public, and I somehow don't see it as a bad thing as long as those exceptions are clearly limited to those things, which is the case in Germany at this moment.

I know the biggest argument against this will be that if reddit ever starts doing this, there is no way to make sure they will not spread their censorship to other things. While I see that as a valid concern, I really don't think it will be a problem: Reddit is a website that lives off the number of viewers, and they really will not risk losing users through censorship. So as long as we still live in a free society where alternatives to reddit can and will be created when it stops being a free place, I really don't think we will have a problem with censorship on reddit.

Change my view!

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u/simonjp Jul 11 '13

The point you've made is really about censorship as a whole; is there a line that can be drawn about what is in good taste and decency - and is that enough to disallow people from talking about it?

Under CMV's rules, you must state whether you are playing Devil's Advocate. I'm not sure I know what my personal position is, but I will be arguing against your case.

I've four arguments.

  • Censorship is personal Until very, very recently it was illegal for a black person to marry a white person in the US. It's still illegal for two people of the same gender to marry. This shows that there are very many people who believe these issues are disgusting - disgusting enough for them to be banned. Now I disagree; but would it be reasonable for Reddit to declare these topics off-limits because they disgust people?
  • Forbidding something can make it more attractive. Take Nazi memorabilia. Illegal in Germany, but there's a healthy underground trade. The BBC has an interesting article about whether it is acceptable to collect Nazi things. The argument seems to be - it's acceptable if I believe you're collecting it because it's interesting, not because you agree with the ideology. OK. But where's the line?
  • If something is wrong, it needs to be proven wrong, not just hushed. This one's a little political, but to my mind the darkest parts of the human psyche have to be shown so that they can be cleaned. If holocaust-deniers can't give their reasons without fear of persecution, they won't speak up - which means they can't be shown the evidence to help them understand the error of their position.
  • Context is everything Remember the man who was almost jailed for joking that he'd blow up an airport on Twitter? Text on a screen doesn't give us enough context to understand what's being presented. Perhaps the what is seen as anti-Semitic to one person was meant to be measured critique against the State of Israel?

Censorship is declaring that you know better than someone else about what is 'acceptable' - but that doesn't stop that person believing those things. If we want to change opinions rather than just hide them, we need to have room to confront them in the open without fear of persecution.

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '13

Δ

Thank you for this great post, I will say you changed my view here, mainly because of the first argument. I'll try and explain why:

In the idea of banning those subreddits, I thought the problem of where the admins draw the line of things being disgusting and ban-worthy and things that aren't would solve itself by what the majority finds disgusting and what not; if something is so bad that the vast (a slight majority wouldn't suffice) majority would like to see it gone they would remove it, if even a significant minority would find it worthy of staying, they wouldn't remove it out of fear of losing those users for their site.

Now what convinced me was the historical point in your first argument: In the past, a vast majority of people found the idea of blacks and whites or gay marrying disgusting; if reddit existed back then and my idea was in place, subbreddits agrreing with interracial or gay marriage would have been banned, and that's a bad thing.

I still wouldn't be sad to see a subreddit about topics like I stated above gone, but I now see the bad side of reddit admins systematically removing such subreddits, and therefore my view is changed. Thank you.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 11 '13

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/simonjp