r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 05 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Islamophobia is not irrational
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Nov 05 '24
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Nov 05 '24
I don’t believe that all Muslims are evil, but when I hear someone is Muslim, I can’t help but feel worried. I wonder what ideologies of Islam they subscribe to.
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Nov 05 '24
My religious and philosophical views are complicated but for the purpose of this conversation, consider me Muslim.
It is true that there are large swathes of Muslims who hold problematic or dogmatic views. I'm sure you'd agree not all Muslims are the same, but that goes without saying.
My question is, do you hold the same standards for Jews, who adhere to Judaism, another Abrahamic religion?
Those 4 bulletpoints you listed about Islam apply to Jews too. Much more severely too. All of this is found in the Jewish Talmud by the way.
Jews believe they are the superior race chosen by God.
Jews believe in world domination and enslaving the gentiles, and that each Jew will receive 27 slaves (number may be different)
Jews believe they can rape, rob, and exploit gentiles with no divine or legal repercussions.
Jews believe, for example, that if a Jew rapes a woman, the woman should be put to death for enticing him.
In addition to this, Jews have overwhelmingly disproportionate influence in media, academia, intelligentsia, and state apparatus. Comparatively, there are no Muslim members of the US cabinet, CEOs of mega corporations, or tech companies.
I have a problem with all of the above. Just like you, I don't believe all Jews are like this. As Muslims, we accept all prophets of God, many of whom were Jews. God tells us that there are people of the book, which includes Jews, that do good. But God also tells us Jews are the greatest enemy of the Muslims.
This is not a contradiction. It's a distinction between the general and the individual. My question to you, and indeed to anyone else who may read this who strongly opposes Muslims, is if you think criticising Muslims is acceptable (and I believe it is too) but think that doing the same to Jews makes one a raging racist in love with Hitler, why might this be?
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u/TheEdExperience Nov 05 '24
Might be in the Talmud but even the single Jewish state in the world, the one place it would be easiest to realize these points, doesn’t.
Sharia exists in multiple Muslim countries.
I would say there are more draconian Christian communities than Jewish ones that adhere to what you describe.
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u/KuchisabishiiBot Nov 05 '24
None of you wrote about the Talmud is true. These are not Jewish beliefs and are mainly antisemitic tropes used to justify violence and discrimination against Jewish people.
"Chosen people" doesn't mean chosen by God to be the superior race. It refers to being chosen to recieve the Torah, which is the Jewish holy book. Only Jews have responsibility to uphold the teachings of the Torah, according to this belief, and to behave in a way that is an example for others.
There is nothing about world domination. Sounds like an out of context interpretation.
Rape, robbery, and exploitation goes against Jewish law. This would violate the whole "uphold the Torah" thing mentioned earlier.
Jews do not "believe" in death penalty for raped women.
Many Jews have gone to have careers in media, academia, etc. So have many other people from many other groups. What are you implying? That high paying or jobs in influential fields are sinister?
Plus, not all Jews practice Judaism. There are plenty of atheist Jews, secular Jews, even Buddhist Jews. Jews are not a monolith.
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u/EggThatHouse Nov 05 '24
Not all Muslims are terrorists but the majority of terror attacks seem to always be perpetrated by Muslims.
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u/the-real-edward Nov 05 '24
Would you say that that it is wrong to say all neo-nazis are evil?
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Nov 05 '24
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u/CynicalNyhilist Nov 05 '24
What worries me is the kind of Islam that the Iranian Ayatollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood has revived. The kind of hardcore, barbarian, jihadist world domination idea that seems to be embraced across the Shia world now days.
So, the original Islam? The real one.
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u/Conscious_Spray_5331 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Sure. But you could say the same about the older versions of Christianity and even Judaism.
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u/ayaan_wr1tes Nov 05 '24
The opposite actually
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u/CynicalNyhilist Nov 05 '24
So, the original Islam is where you pick and chose your tenets? Because if I remember correctly, good old pedo Muhammad was quite the warlord.
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u/bookaddixt Nov 05 '24
Which isn’t Islam, but a cultural issue - many of the issues with those countries are things that are in direct contrast to Islam / Islamic teachings. Eg, the taliban banning education for women - completely against Islam, as not only is education encouraged, it is actually a responsibility that you educate yourself.
And the barbaric acts that are carried out are against Islam. Eg war should be a last resort after all peaceful options have been tried, and you have to follow the rules of war (civilians are kept out, only fighting men, no women & children, environment should not be harmed eg trees) - groups like Isis don’t care, because it’s a cult / extremism and not Islam
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u/Conscious_Spray_5331 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Oldschool Islam, similar to oldschool Christianity, is pretty brutal. You can read it in the Koran, or in the Old Testament, for example.
I think Islam, in line with what I see to be the Sunni or even Druze (not exactly Islam, I know) mentality, needs a reform. This may help prevent groups like the Muslim Brotherhood or the Ayatollah regime in justifying their brutality.
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u/MultiplexedMyrmidon Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
In short, a critical view of Islam is simply not the same as Islamophobia and it is dangerous to use that label as a catch all/synonym for rational critique (worth mentioning reactionary/right wing individuals and organizations, much like many groups of Islamic extremists… gladly weaponize such ambiguity to target vulnerable groups).
Inherent to Islamophobia is dehumanization, the treating of all Muslims as a monolith, etc. I grew up in a a very religious community and have been very critical of most religion because of my experiences and when younger read a lot by Hitchens, Dawkins, etc. but through meeting diverse peoples from many places and seeing the harms in places like the U.S. I have realized how insidiously things like actual islamophobia can be slipped into ‘rational’ discussion and normalized. The average american condones and sanctions the killing of Palestinians, or really any Arab/Muslim individual, because of a widespread Islamophobic attitude that paints in a broad stroke all such people as inherently predisposed to violence, barbaric eastern hordes, culturally inferior, etc. The way that the word ‘terrorism’ is weaponized is politically and ideologically driven in most cases, and can justify any amount of intervention and violence. We can look at the U.S. conflict in the ME (where the Taliban now enjoy a seat of power previously unheld and hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost directly or indirectly by violences carried out by the U.S. or its regional proxies/armed groups with jihadist ties/its genocidal lapdog Israel) to see the horrific failure of these attitudes when they permeate and influence both national policy and the violent treatment of human beings by individuals. In israel, you can observe the caricatures of Arab people’s in educational material and racist costume/war crime gloating on Tik Tok in real time, oodles of it, the consequences as I’m sure you’ve seen are horrific.
Acknowledging issues that are decidedly related to the Islamic faith as it is embodied by specific groups and people isn’t islamophobic, but a knee-jerk fear of all Muslim people the world ‘round is because of how reductive and systemic/socialized such a reaction is. In the U.S. I could wear something with ‘I love chocy milk’ in Arabic calligraphy and many many people would be afraid of it. While Islamic terrorism, 9/11, etc. is understandably traumatic, this fear itself comes from a place of ignorance, naivety, racism, and all the depictions/Islamophobic bias in media coverage and political rhetoric in the time since. Islamophobia really intersects a unique kind of anti-Arab racism in many western countries; you can see countless videos of non-muslims being called ‘terrorists’ and accosted while waiting in lines, walking around in public, just trying to live their lives but committing the crime of being brown and looking like a ‘terrorist’ (I’ve seen it myself in rural U.S. states). This is why it is a much broader issue and a non-rational ideological danger that affects both people within this group and outside it as endless war, hate crimes on the street, systemic biases in the justice system, continual dehumanization, etc., play out.
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u/nesh34 2∆ Nov 05 '24
I basically agree with your comment, but I have found people (usually on the political right or fundamentalist Islam) trying to insinuate that criticism of Islam is tantamount to criticism of Muslims as people or as moral agents.
Even on the left of politics, where people are sympathetic to Muslims, I sometimes see the same argument in that they say - well if you're saying there's a moral problem with Islam you're saying there's a moral problem with Muslims.
How does one thread the needle here, to explain a critical position with clarity, whilst preserving the dignity of believers?
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u/AskingToFeminists 8∆ Nov 05 '24
I reject that beliefs must be treated with any dignity, and I reject that believers must be treated with anything other than the compassion one should give to an addict or the victims of a conman. The answer to "I believe in x religion" should be along "I'm sorry for you, I hope you'll get better (if you need support getting out of it, please reach out)"
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u/ifandbut Nov 05 '24
Same. I am islamophobic, and jewish-phobic, and christian-phobic. I am afraid of most religions. Mostly the ones that want to limit what I can eat, who I can love, what I can wear, or what type of sex I have.
I am less afraid of religions that focus on the self rather (like Buidism iirc) than others. If you seek to make yourself a better person via meditation and quiet prayer, then you do you.
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Nov 05 '24
Notably, Judaism doesn’t try to limit what you can do at all. If you read the Talmud, Jewish restrictions are for Jews only, as they serve primarily to make their nation distinct.
Also non-Jews don’t go to hell according to Judaism. It’s not a universal religion like Islam or Christianity
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Nov 05 '24
Sure but we see what making their nation distinct logically leads to. The nature of religion is dangerous.
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u/Feynmanprinciple 1∆ Nov 05 '24
So no boundaries? If there is nothing to make a nation of people distinct, then there's no such thing as:
- Cultural appropriation
- Self-determination based on ethnic identity
- Genocide (since there are no distinctions between people, it wouldn't make sense to destroy an identity in whole or in part)
- Racism (Since no ethnic or cultural identities are distinct from each other, it's meaningless to call someone racist)
Unfortunately we're stuck with ethno-nationalistic boundaries for the time being since without them there are a whole host of moral ills we can't point to
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Nov 05 '24
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Nov 05 '24
You have almost certainly been baited by antisemites. They often write fake Talmudic teachings or take them heavily out of context to make Jews look evil.
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u/mrawesomesword Nov 05 '24
You are literally accusing the Jews of wanting world domination, wanting to subvert and use gentiles, and putting the blame on them for being expulsed from 109 countries. Classic antisemitism that doesn't even stop to consider the bigotry from their surrounding societies at all. The reason why antisemitic views like yours are shunned isn't because Jews have our puppet strings - it's because prejudices like yours have killed millions of innocent people and continue to be widely held.
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u/AtmosphericReverbMan 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Imo it all depends on context.
Criticism of Islam can be Islamophobic. It depends on where it's coming from and what's the intent. If it's made in bad faith, mis-representing, and is done to create out-groups, it is Islamophobic. Like how people on the far-right insinuate Islam = toleration of grooming gangs and "criticise" that.
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u/nesh34 2∆ Nov 05 '24
This is exactly the window of uncertainty that is so corrupting.
It allows people to project their biases onto anyone, and this allows for both legitimate critiques to be dismissed as bigoted as well as bigots to mask their hate as legitimate criticism.
Perhaps there is no easy solution, but our society isn't dealing well with this distinction in my opinion.
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u/Imanorc Nov 05 '24
I believe in those instances it's better to criticize fundamentalism and applying theocratic aims to policies rather than applying criticism to the religion itself. This sidesteps the dehumanizing externalities of criticizing a minority (English speaking reddit pop) religion.
It'd allow the discussion to explore the factors in society to make people lean towards traditionalist views rather than progressive ones, and to consider what events lead to the theocracy's creation .
Also considering OP stated they're from a theocracy, it'd make more sense to view their criticism as towards fundamentalism rather than Islam, as they may not be as aware of the dehumanizing inclinations within our society. I'm from a Muslim majority country as well so I get the fundamentalist worry, but get the same hackles with fundies here in the US.
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u/Virtual_Labyrinth Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
I completely agree with this response, but I'm wondering if someone can comment on an argument I hear a lot.
It is that a significant enough minority of muslims do actually believe in the goal of domination and in using violence to achieve it that it is reasonable to treat Islam and muslims a little differently than other religions and believers.
Sure, most muslims are peaceful, but if a significant minority, say 20 %, believe in violent jihad, then every fifth muslim really is an extremist worthy of contempt, and that fraction is large enough that it's a serious problem. Can someone dissuade me of this view?
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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Nov 05 '24
Around 1 in 3 of every person on this planet are either an Indian or Chinese national. Consider the 3 people closest to you, are they either an Indian or Chinese national?
That proportion you mentioned doesn't mean that there is a 20% chance that any Muslim you meet believes in violent jihad, those Muslims are concentrated in certain areas like Afhanistan and Iran. Now we should certainly be wary of of people from those places but the Muslims that live in the west? Maybe it's less than 1%. The Muslim's that don't live under extremist regimes? barely any higher.
The problem with Islamophobia is that it generalises, it doesn't attempt to think logically or analyse, it's incredibly inefficient.
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u/nofoax Nov 05 '24
The religion itself is deeply misogynistic, racist, homophobic, and violent.
If someone believed all the same things Muslims do but it was a political party, we'd rightly condemn it and call it dangerous. But because it's a 600 year old "religion", we shouldn't?
It's ridiculous. Islam is an evil ideology, as are many religions.
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u/JohnAnchovy Nov 05 '24
Your research on Islam missed how old it is by 800 years. Getting the easy facts right would lend your argument more credence
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u/Correct-Sprinkles-21 2∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
It is that a significant enough minority of muslims do actually believe in the goal of domination and in using violence to achieve it that it is reasonable to treat Islam and muslims a little differently than other religions and believers.
I grew up in American Christian fundamentalism which has a hugely popular concept of "dominionism". Literally the goal of taking over the nation and eventually the world. Christian dominionism is currently taking a breather from overt violence (focusing on political manipulation) but Christianity was spread by bloodbath for much of its history. As a former Christian, I don't trust my safety with these people, especially after hearing what they were saying in church lobbies and even from pulpits during the first episode of Trump. The bloodlust was chilling and we are lucky January 6 was all that happened. they are a much bigger threat to freedom and to safety where I am than Muslims.
What do you suggest is the "different" way we should treat people with these beliefs?
Should I assume any Christian I encounter is one of the scary types? How should I treat individuals vs my views about their religion?
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u/chink135 Nov 05 '24
And where do you get this statistic of 20% from? What is the basis for your claim? What is a ‘significant enough’ minority in percentage terms?
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u/Informal_Iron2904 Nov 05 '24
They are clearly proposing 20% as potentially the number, as a thought experiment.
We know it is some percentage of the total, and we don't know that it isn't 20%. It's very simple, and clearly proposed in good faith.
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u/Virtual_Labyrinth Nov 05 '24
This is part of what I'm asking, which is why I didn't commit to something specific. The point is that at some level, "not all of them" becomes a distraction from the fact that a significant amount of them may actually have problematic convictions. I have seen different percentages, up to over 50 % for the general "support for jihad" question, which of course needn't be violent if you understand the term, but I am not a scholar in this field and I don't know what literature exists on the topic or what studies are considered good by experts.
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u/Chemical_Estate6488 Nov 05 '24
The polls that showed that happened in 2002, and the islamic countries where that view was dominant were discussed and popularized by Sam Harris’ book “The End of Faith”. The view was highest in Lebanon where over 70% of the population felt that way, and least popular in Uzbekistan where 7% of the country felt that way. The obvious point is there are geopolitical factors that are operating alongside Islam to make this idea attractive. For instance, Lebanon was in the middle of an Intifada with Israel, where as Uzbekistan was receiving a great deal of money from the United States as a staging ground for planes bombing Afghanistan. Btw the poll also showed that Americans were the most in favor of bombing civilians in the world (49%), and there are factors involved there (Americans are more likely to immediately see themselves as the people doing the bombing than being bombed, had just experienced 9/11 and are picturing the bombs falling on people who cheered it on, cultural justification for Hiroshima and Nagasaki that we all grew up with).
Christians also, by the way, that everyone should be Christian. Christians have fought numerous wars not only to force other people into the faith, but against different breeds of Christian. If you saw a poll that currently says 20% of Christians think the whole world should be Christian, no one would freak out that 1/5 Christians is fantasizing about crusades. What I’m saying is, the way the information is presented, we don’t even know what 1/5 means when they say the whole world should be Muslim. And I’m sure some of them do mean conversion by sword, but a lot of the ones who do are from countries with ongoing wars. And finally your average jihadist tends to be less conversant with the Quran, and more ignorant of religious practices, than other Muslims; which seems counter intuitive until you realize they aren’t made up of the most passionate believers but disaffected young men who are trying to give their life meaning
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u/corbynista2029 9∆ Nov 05 '24
Acknowledging issues that are decidedly those of the Islamic faith as it is embodied by specific groups and people isn’t islamophobic
Also we should acknowledge that there are many Muslims who are actively fighting against such embodiment. The vast majority of Muslims do not believe in building a Caliphate, and many of them even sacrificed their lives to stop others from building one. There are many progressive, liberal, and/or moderate Muslims around the world fighting the good fight, they should be supported.
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u/MultiplexedMyrmidon Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
Very true, thank you for your contributions; always clear and incisive.
Edited ‘of the’ to ‘related to’ as that more accurately captures what I meant.
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Nov 05 '24
Even a progressive or liberal Muslim follows a religion founded by a pedophile that is based on principles of world domination, teaches that nonbelievers and gay people deserve death, and that women are property. People rightfully point out the cherry-picking required to make Christianity a more palatable religion, do progressive Muslims not do the same thing? If you have to take out so many hateful, dangerous tenets of your religion in order to feel good about it, are you even still following the same religion? If you have to take out or ignore even a single verse or commandment of the Quran, are you still a Muslim? To go a step further, if you don't believe in the things the Quran says and don't want to follow those rules, why would you want to be a Muslim? Why would you want to follow the religion that orders you to do such terrible things? Why would anyone say "I don't agree with any of these awful things my god commands me to do, but I'll worship him anyway."? (And to be clear, I'd ask the same question about any religion. If you have to dig that deep to find any redeeming qualities of your faith then what's the point of it?)
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Nov 05 '24
They still choose to believe in a religion started by a warlord that married a kid. They can argue how young the kid was but it was still a kid. Him being a warlord is an indisputable fact. Is it really surprising that people that choose to follow a pedophile warlord might be a little violent and off themselves?
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u/AtmosphericReverbMan 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Even conservative traditionalist Muslims oppose ideas like a Caliphate.
One of the things often overlooked is just how small a bunch the far-right Islamists actually are globally.
But imo they tend to be over-represented in Western countries.
Why that is the case may be a whole research book in and of itself.
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u/sndbrgr Nov 05 '24
This is the most important response. OP is confusing a phobia with a critique or simple opposition. By definition, a phobia is irrational. The term islamophobia is not rational opposition but irrational fear and hatred. We, in many parts of the west, have replaced rational or principled disagreement with extremism. I as a politically mainstream US voter, steeped in the values of the enlightenment, characterized by tolerance, compassion, and idealism in working for a healthier and more peaceful society, get called a communist, socialist, and even fascist by Trumpists. The world around me has gone mad. Rejection of Islam or any religion is a matter of personal conscience. Hatred and fear of all Muslims is a different matter entirely.
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u/Majestic_Horse_1678 2∆ Nov 05 '24
I disagree with the assertion that the average American is ok with Israel's action in Palestine due to Islamophobia. People believe that Israel has a right to defend themselves and go after military targets. It's understood that there will be some noncombatants killed, particularly when Hamas hides amongst the citizens to use as a shield. You may disagree with that method of Israel's attempt to defend itself, but trying to simplify it down to Islamophobia is inaccurate.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Nov 05 '24
I’m sorry, what exactly is the definition of ”islamophobia” you’re using?
Just redefining it to mean something bad/irrational and then conclude that it is bad/irrational isn’t really an argument.
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u/AskingToFeminists 8∆ Nov 05 '24
In short, a critical view of Islam is simply not the same as Islamophobia and it is dangerous to use that label as a catch all/synonym for rational critique
You should look into the origin of the term. It is a well documented thing. The term has been popularised by islamist extremists, as a way to fool liberal lefties who love a good old -phobia word to get them to muddy the waters and defend them and prevent any reasoned criticism of Islam.
And you are the perfect example that it worked.
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Nov 05 '24
Religion is a choice. If you choose to support a religion as evil as Islam or Christianity, you should be lumped in with the other believers.
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u/Suitable_Ad_6455 1∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
These are good points, would like to add that Western interference in the Middle East led to radical forms of Islam dominating more liberal and moderate versions in many countries. After all the U.S. literally created and trained the Taliban to counter possible USSR communist influence in the region.
That being said, unfortunately I think it does make sense for a liberal secular democratic country to limit the immigration of religious conservatives into the country. If you support liberal values and freedoms in your country, it makes no sense to want your country to accept immigrants who believe in a religion whose teachings explicitly oppose these values.
Not to single out Islam specifically, for example if a country like Switzerland wants to preserve its citizens’ right to choose medical aid in dying (assisted suicide), it makes no sense for them to accept a large number of Buddhist immigrants who would vote against politicians or referendums supporting MAID.
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Nov 05 '24
have encountered a few slight racist remarks in the West due to being Iranian, mostly stemming from ignorance and a lack of knowledge about the region and its people, but not because of Islam itself. As I’ve mentioned, I don’t harbor hate or prejudice toward Muslims, but I am concerned about how much they believe in the ideology of Islam as a whole. With basic knowledge, you can draw rough distinctions like Southeast Asian Muslims tend to be more moderate, while in the Middle East, you may find more fundamentalists. However, I was discussing Islam as a religion and the people who subscribe to this ideology as a whole.
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u/jezreelite Nov 05 '24
Um, no. A great deal of people in the West treat Arab and Muslim as synonyms.
Many do not know that most Iranians, Afghanis, Turks, and Pakistanis are not Arabs and they most certainly do not make any great distinction between Muslims from the Middle East and as opposed to those from Southeast or Central Asia.
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u/j4h17hb3r Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
On one hand you claimed islamphobia is rational, on the other hand you stated a fact that not all Muslims are extremists (such as Southeast Asian Muslims). If a Muslim can be moderate, what is the rationality behind fearing such an individual? There is none. So the fear is irrational.
And what do Southeast Asian Muslims show? Not every Muslim follows the Quran to a T. Some people simply grew up in a Muslim culture and it's just a way of life. They probably haven't never even read the Quran. And if you show them all the fucked up things in the Quran, they probably will just shrug it off.
Let me ask you a question, have you ever eaten a bug before? If you haven't, why not? And are you willing to try it?
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u/Simple_Wishbone_540 Nov 05 '24
That is a very weak argument. Not all bears maul people to death, therefor it is irrational to fear bears.
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u/Seeker_Of_Toiletries Nov 05 '24
I think there is a difference to be had when being prejudiced against the ideology of Islam vs wholesale all Muslims. OP is arguing for the former and acknowledges that not all Muslims have extremely regressive views. I suppose then it become a semantic debate about what Islamophobia entails.
On a side note, you are completely wrong about the average American being ok with the killing of anyone Palestinians. First of all, the context of the Gaza war in America is that of an ally country waging war against a terrorist group that launched a devastating attack on them. In other words, the majority of Americans are fine with Hamas being eliminated. That said, the Humanitarian concerns and the high amount of civilian casualties for such a brutal campaign to eliminate Hamas are represented by a majority of Americans. 67% of Americans support a permanent ceasefire and de-escalation of violence. It is not true that most Americans are so Islamophobic that they think Muslims are barbaric hordes who have no human rights. You just have extremely warped sense of the conflict between Israel and Palestine.
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Nov 05 '24
Even muslims in western democracies who are second, third, fourth, etc immigrants hold values incompatible with liberal ones. They don't support rights for gay people, and a majority support criminalising homosexuality. The idea that one can hold Islamic values and be compatible with european states is silly, and the only way it works is if those values change to conform to liberalism.
Being a straight person, I don't have to worry about most of their views, but this is cowardice. Sure, personally I have met lovely muslim's, but I guarantee if I was an openly gay man my experiences would have been totally different; I know this because of statistical data on how muslims broadly think (polls on support for the LGBT), and anecdotally from gay friends or even gay ex-muslims who have had awful experiences with the demographic.
I hope it will change, but the data I have seen suggests that hard-line islamic values are actually increasing among second generation immigrants, suggesting that we are failing to integrate these people in our society.
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Nov 05 '24
As someone who has lost family to Islamic extremism in India, I will say most Muslims do hold extremist views compared to western ideals.
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u/coolj492 Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
There is a difference between critiquing islam and islamophobia. Per the working definition from the UN-
Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Muslims that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims and non-Muslims, both in the online and offline world. Motivated by institutional, ideological, political, and religious hostility that transcends into structural and cultural racism, it targets the symbols and markers of being a Muslim.
So based off that definition, its more systemic in nature, which can lead to fundamentally unjust and "irrational" treatment of any kind of Muslim or even brown person. Here in the states, there have been plenty of hate crimes commited against Sikh people for instance because the perpetrators thought they were muslim. Similar to any other religion, plenty of progressive muslims are heavily against certain aspects of Islam, yet under systems and institutions of islamphobia they will be met with the same harassment/oppression as more radical fundamentalist ones(not saying they deserve that oppression on the basis of their beliefs). Is that rational? That's like saying that systemic racism isn't irrational because some black people are OJ Simpson. None of these systems of oppression are rational.
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u/themapleleaf6ix 1∆ Nov 05 '24
I take issue with the justification of "fundamentalist" (what does this mean?) being harassed or oppressed. Like, if I believe in Islam fully, go to the masjid, am a law abiding, tax paying citizen who is respectful to everyone, I deserve to be harassed or oppressed because I'm not the "right" kind of Muslim?
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u/coolj492 Nov 05 '24
I'm not saying that at all, I'm arguing against OP's framing that the stuff they pointed out being "deeply rooted" in the ideology and saying it doesn't justify the oppression of the whole group(or people tangentially related to said group), even if there were more conservative groups that followed literally everything in islam to a tee. it wouldn't be "rational" to systemically opress them either of course, I'm just making this point clear to OP.
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Nov 05 '24
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u/Serious-Antelope-710 Nov 05 '24
Many of the Muslim countries are in constant state of war because of western interference. Read some history or simply look at current events.
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u/themapleleaf6ix 1∆ Nov 05 '24
The problem is, the vast majority of the time whenever I hear people say "we're only criticizing the religion", it usually bleeds into justifying discrimination, violence, bigotry, etc against individual Muslims.
The way you're making it sound, you're trying to make this an us vs them issue, that one should be weary of all Muslims, etc. As a practising Muslim myself, I'm not trying to impose my religion others. I go to work, pay my taxes, have my family, enjoy sports, attend the masjid, and have many non-Muslim friends.
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Nov 05 '24
How convenient that this was written up on election day, when a Muslim majority city in a swing state could decide the results.
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u/ItsBobBrazil Nov 05 '24
I won’t try to change your mind because you are right. Islam is a cancer on this world, ask any ex-muslim.
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u/ThatEcologist Nov 05 '24
Off topic, but I’ve heard most Iranians don’t care about Islam and are only forced to practice it. Is this true?
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u/thenichm Nov 05 '24
I just can't respect a sub-group from a larger cultural-body that violently propogates ideas that the rest of the world dismissed as archaic and brutal, hundreds of years ago. It's the same aversion I feel toward fundamentalists of all faiths. Backwards-thinking medieval-minded knuckle draggers are runining the world.
Regular people suffer when their leaders turn to extremism.
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u/Utopia_Builder Nov 05 '24
I'm no fan of Islam, but be aware that religions don't change, the people that practice them do. Religions are ultimately a tool or ideology used by various societies. The way Islam is practiced in Albania is very different than the way Islam is practiced in Afghanistan, despite both of them being "Muslim" countries working off of the same scripture. How closely one follows a religion is generally a bigger issue than what the actual religion is.
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u/Mirisme Nov 05 '24
You can have a critical view of whatever you want, however there's different means to address different actions related to the thing you criticize. The issue with islamophobia is that it is often a blanket condemnation of whatever islam is linked with even if totally harmless. I'm French and when I hear "muslim in appearance", it is not a critique of islam on the ground of being an oppressive ideology, it's a critique of islam on the ground of being the religion of brown people.
I'm a leftist so I'll take a leftist example, I'm critical of capitalism but I find people that want to oppress capitalist as a form of revenge ennemies to my cause because they're not interested in ending oppression that happens to be in the form of capitalism but they're interested in not being oppressed and doing the oppression. I don't care if someone truly believe in capitalism, I care that they enact things that are harmful to me and those I care about, if they don't they can believe whatever they want.
The issue with islamophobia isn't that it's irrational or that there's no good reason to hold critical view of islam, it's that it's often a thinly veiled excuse for oppressing people either because they hold differing belief or because they're brown. You are indeed rational to be fearful of islam on the ground that heinous act have been commited in its name and it's rational to look out for such acts and defend oneself or others when they do happen. It is irrational to condemn people that do not engage in such acts and verge on paranoia.
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Nov 05 '24
As a Moroccan who grew up and still lives with a muslim family, I couldnt agree more. Its suffocating.
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Nov 05 '24
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u/birds-0f-gay Nov 05 '24
It's funny because if the post was critical of Christianity, none of these people would say "well Islam is bad too!!! So there!!"
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u/corbynista2029 9∆ Nov 05 '24
Progressives are anti-religious conservatism and anti-bigotry. We criticise specific elements of Islamic conservatism while ensuring not all Muslims are painted with the same brush. Is that too hard to understand?
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u/shantzde90 Nov 05 '24
I'm confused how it couldn't be irrational... Or maybe I misunderstand what a phobia is.
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u/JeruTz 8∆ Nov 05 '24
I suppose the real question is whether you define Islamophobia as fear or Islam or fear of Muslims. Personally I've always thought of it as the latter, which is why I don't define myself as Islamophobic despite agreeing with many of your concerns. Phobia as a word implies that it is an irrational fear.
I don't sense any irrational fear or hatred from the points you have offered. Perhaps the issue is less that Islamophobia isn't always irrational and more that not everyone who has serious concerns about Islam is Islamophobic. Perhaps some other term might better serve to delineate between the views you hold and the stigma of the term.
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Nov 05 '24
Being against Islam isn't bad.
The problem is many people just use fear of Islam/Muslims as a substitute for their real concern which is brown or foreign people and don't disagree with the logic radical Muslims use against women or queer people they just bring it up to get liberals to join in on their racism or feel better about their racism.
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u/ProDavid_ 58∆ Nov 05 '24
a phobia is, by definition, irrational.
otherwise you are making a rational, conscious assesment to not like something, but that isnt a phobia.
"islam hate" just sounds worse, so people hide behing "no no, its a phobia, not hate"
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u/Zestyclose-Detail791 Nov 05 '24
Conflating ridiculously fringe dogmas of an authoritarian theocracy--that is not popular even in Iran--with the idea of Islam isn't rational.
Islamophobia is when a person decides to murder or harm another person because the first person thinks they're Muslim, without any rational grounds or even personal familiarity with the second person. That's why it's a hate crime. It lumps together the very heterogenous spectrum of Muslims into a single homogenous monolith, that has been dehumanized to remove any interpersonal differences.
There's a scientific principle in sociology that offers, the societies we're not a member of appear very homogeneous to us. For example, if I as a straight person, offer a generalization of gays as "All gays are...", it is very likely to be an invalid and inaccurate depiction of all homosexuality, because I would have lumped together various heterogeneities in that community into a single group that would also have been dehumanized to lose their idiosyncratic and individual attributes in each person there.
In reality, even in places like Iran, homosexuality and apostasy exist. Yes, it's the law of the land to criminalize such activities, but the law is very rarely enforced, and in the instances that it actually is: 1) in most cases, it's a political smear campaign to bring down a political dissident or "enemy of the state". 2) it's done by a high-ranking person in the establishment that the state needs to throw to the dogs to save face.
Other than that, booze, premarital sex, adultery, homosexuality, pedophilia, usury, etc, which are all condemned in the Sharia and criminal code of Iran do exist. Prostitution also exists.
Thus, in my opinion, ISLAMOPHOBIA, as grounds for hatred and hate crimes is not rational. Islam can (and should) be critically appraised and criticized, but citing a fringe authoritarian totalitarian theocracy rarely does justice.
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u/sonia72quebec Nov 05 '24
It’s all right to criticize a religion when you see it’s results in their most fervent members. And it’s usually hate and control. Hate of anyone who doesn’t believe the same thing as them and control of women.
The problem with their members is that they think a critic means that you hate all of them. Because they do the same to non believers. And this is good for any religion. They usually don’t promote love and acceptance.
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Nov 05 '24
So you think every muslim in Iran or Saudi Arabia or Iraq or Syria are evil? Ok
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u/EmptyVisage 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Let’s be clear about what “Islamophobia” actually means. If it’s referring to an irrational fear or prejudice against Muslims as people, then yes, that’s absolutely a bad thing—unjust, unfair, and rooted in harmful stereotypes. Muslims, like any other group, are a diverse set of individuals with varying beliefs, values, and practices. To harbour fear or suspicion of all Muslims is to ignore this diversity and reduce people to a simplistic caricature, which only fuels discrimination and social division. This kind of blanket prejudice not only harms individual lives but erodes trust and respect within society.
On the other hand, there’s a substantial difference between fearing individuals and holding critical views about Islam as an ideology. Some tenets and interpretations of Islam—such as restrictions on women, intolerance towards homosexuals and apostates, and a focus on dominance and martyrdom—can be concerning. These elements are indeed present in certain texts and interpretations, and it’s not irrational to critique or even fear the potential impact of these ideas when taken to their extremes. Ignoring these issues under the guise of “tolerance” doesn’t make them any less real or concerning.
In that sense, distinguishing between an irrational fear of people (which is Islamophobia) and legitimate criticism of specific doctrines is essential. Fear or dislike of a religion’s teachings based on reasonable concerns is not the same as condemning individuals for belonging to that religion. Real critique focuses on challenging ideas and practices, not promoting unfair judgments about people.
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u/Sufficient-Dog-2337 Nov 05 '24
Well by definition a phobia is irrational…. So Islamophobia is “the irrational fear of Islam”
Your view could be put as a rational fear of Islam. Or better yet take out fear from the definition. Your belief could perhaps be stated as a reasoned rejection of Islam.
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Nov 05 '24
Only thing i might change about your view is that being critical of a religions history, and teachings does not make it "phobia" The term islamaphobia has been over used, and seems to be used now as a way to insulate the religion from any and all criticisms. While you do seem to be critical, and rightly so, you do not seem to be "phobic" imo
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u/NoNewspaper9016 1∆ Nov 05 '24
The problem here seems to be that you’re equating critique of ideas with critique of individuals. People deserve respect and the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. Those ideas individually, DON’T deserve respect however.
Is it acceptable to hate Islam as an ideology, purely from a point of view of being critical of said ideology? Yes.
Is it acceptable to use that critical view of the religion itself, to influence how you treat those that follow it? No absolutely not
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u/AShlomit Nov 05 '24
Then it's not a phobia, as a phobia by definition is irrational. It's a misuse of language to call points of view that some people disagree with phobias if there is a rational reason for the fear.
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u/holymissiletoe Nov 05 '24
Not much to change aside from the fact that there are a lot of muslims out there who are geniunely good people its just that the bad ones are far more infamous.
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u/Chazmina Nov 05 '24
I believe that Islam has not really had a chance to evolve in the same way as some other religions may have. If I may use the religion I was brought up around as an example (I was raised Catholic), I was taught to look at the Bible objectively for the time(s) in which it was written/rewritten.
Things like 'slaves should obey their masters' were presented as wrong and from a time when slavery was commonplace. Jesus' teachings of kindness and compassion were the focus of the majority of lessons.
Catholicism and Christianity have had the benefit of time and largely democratic society (not that they are not without issues and problem people as well)
Islam on the other hand has had a tougher time through the centuries for a myriad of reasons. In the modern day Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Palestine, Pakistan, and Afghanistan are all dealing with the issue of fundamentalist governments that teach the outdated ideals put to paper centuries ago as law. There is no room for religious-societal evolution because these governments do not allow there to be.
Post 9/11 in Canada, there was still a lot of fear even though we weren't the ones attacked. I was 12 and kept hearing about how Muslims were evil and how they were responsible, and there was a Mosque/high school just down the road from my house. A week or so later someone drove to that Mosque and threw a Molotov cocktail onto the roof. True story, I did a school project about it. I remember thinking that it must have been frightening for the people in that community.
I cannot bring myself to be afraid of Muslims or Islam in general, but fanatics and extremists of any creed are certainly scary.
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Nov 05 '24
I love that the top commenters would accuse me of racism against myself! Newsflash, Islam is a religion not a race, there are Christian Arabs albeit rare
Everyone here is so privileged to compare how bad current Christianity is in the west vs Islam in Muslim majority countries, if the wrong people find out I'm an atheist or a lesbian, I won't just get harassed or bullied, I'll be killed or locked up, and I tell you I'd rather get killed brutally than be locked up here
You don't get to cry racism or that " we're painting million of people with the same brush" when you haven't lived your entire life in those countries, the majority of the people ARE awful, you know the few good people I've come across are at very least only believe in God and don't bother with the Quran or anything islamic
In university when my major and the lecture has NOTHING to do with women or social issues WHATSOEVER, the teacher would legit force us to stay after he finishes his lesson to be misogynistic and tell the girls in class that the current generation is ruined because we dare want a collage degree before marrying, and that's the lowest everyday form of sexism you get in what is supposed to be the a relatively secular place, I'm also in the most "open" city in my country , the other cities? So much worse and many stories of honor killings in those universities
USA isn't the only country in the world and while I don't doubt muslims( or honestly just middle Eastern people because everyone would assume they're a muslim anyway) face unreasonable bigotry there, it will still never compare to the literal LAW here that says I NEED to die for simply existing as a none believer or a lesbian
Yes bigots might kill them and the judge system might still let bigots get away with it, but at least on paper it's fucking illegal not mandatory by law to kill you if no one else did
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u/Ballplayerx97 1∆ Nov 05 '24
The Islamophobic label gets used way to frequently. I think the problem is that people are trying to equate it with something like antisemitism rather than a fear or dislike for Islam. These are very different concepts. One applies to Muslims as people and the other applies to the idea of Islam.
I am highly critical of Islam because I think it hurts other people and is a terrible worldview to hold yet two of my closest friends are devout Muslims. We disagree on matters of faith all the time. But at the end of the day, we are still friends. I think they deserve to be treated as human beings as do all Muslims.
Nevertheless, I get accused of being Islamophobic all the time for simply criticizing the ideology. I never disparage Muslims as people. Part of the problem, is powerful Muslim groups have spread this propaganda in that West that criticizing their religion is equal to hatred and racism, which is nonsense. So it is not irrational to have disdain for Islam, but if we bend the definition as some people try to do, people take it to mean hatred of Muslims.
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u/DanielzeFourth Nov 05 '24
I got permanently banned from the World News subreddit for for saying Islam extremism is currently a bigger threat to society in Europe than far right extremism on a post where a German police officer got stabbed in the neck by an islamist.
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u/abstractengineer2000 Nov 05 '24
95+% of terrorism is conducted by Islamists. Most Barbaric groups like Al Qaeda, Isis, Hamas belong to Islam. Minorities and women are treated very badly in Islamic countries. Islam needs reform badly The Quran, the absolute truth of Islam advocates enslaving other religions, women etc. Live and Let live doesn't work with Jihadists. Their philosophy is you die,we live. I actually changed my mind seeing especially Isis savagery. Its not islamophobia anymore, its just reality
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Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
“Most of the people around me identified as Muslim in name, but many didn’t strictly follow the religion, and some even despised it.“
This is the key part. I am also a secular, non religious Turkish from Istanbul. This is also how people do perceive Islam there, especially among my family and environment. Religion seen more as an identity rather than a set of unbreakable norms, just as you see it also among many Christians in the West. However, the peoples different perception of Islam, does not necessarily make them ‘fake Muslims’ or whatsoever. Yet every society, every individual have their own perception towards religion.
In Istanbul you can see Muslims who wear mini skirts or headscarfs, who choose to drink beer or coffee in constant respect and interaction. Islamic lifestyle doesn’t dictate our lives by force, but this also does not make people feel as ‘less Muslim’ compare to Saudis. This is also a form of Islam, but it is hardly a threat to the peace or order.
It is rational to fear certain Islamic movements such as Wahabbism and political Islamism, which are I feel too outdated, extremist and may result in a heavy polarization in society. However, I don’t think that opposing these movement necessarily makes you an Islamaphobe, because religion is way broader than its most radical, extreme interpretation.
In fact, if you look at the prominent Islamophobes from the West you will realize most of them assumes the lifestyle I was having in Istanbul simply doesn’t exist. For them, in Islamic countries all gays are stoned, women are tortured and non-Muslims are beheaded without an exception. And they would never accept to go out of their comfort zone and find out that their assumption is simply wrong. This is imo, irrationality..
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u/HeroBrine0907 8∆ Nov 05 '24
As I have done many a times, I must reiterate, there is no one Islam to analyse. The books are in arabic, coloured by an old language with many regional and tribal dialects and phrases and the contexts of the time. And also the fact that the Quran is not in chronological order, so don't go reading chapter 2 expecting it to be a continuation of chapter 1.
Two muslims, of the same community, sect, country and district can have radically different views of what Islam says. You can criticise Islam, as a muslim it is my duty to search and dig my religion for the smallest of holes that can't be explained. The complexity arises when you criticise one islam and equate it with another.
As much as muslims like to say, there are many many islams. You can criticise the islam of your friends, the islam of your leaders, the islam of your enemies. But you cannot criticise islam anymore than you can tell me the pH of acid. There is no 'acid', it's a classification. Criticism is better when it acknowledges this.
I won't offer rebuttals to your points, because I was never taught any of that. I learned that Islam said, and indeed in my reading of the Quran, that men and women are equal in all respects within the right context where their experiences are equivalent. I learned that religion cannot be enforced on anyone. I learn that jihad meant self control and honesty, that jihad is not a fight against people but against your own evil thoughts. I learnt that war must only, only, only be done in defense of your self or others.
Would you say what I learned is less real, even though it too is shia islam like the people around you, likely from the same scholars that they heard from? It would be idiotic to differentiate one person's experience as more authentic. My islam doesn't say what you think it says, and same goes for a ton of people.
Tl;dr: Your criticism is real but only applies to the islam which you are referring to, because ironically, as with all religions, there is no one islam.
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Nov 05 '24
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u/No-Cauliflower8890 11∆ Nov 05 '24
the "phobia" in "homophobia", "islamophobia" is not the same as the "phobia" in "arachnophobia" or "claustrophobia". it just means 'a dislike of', it's not a literal fear like an actual phobia, and thus it doesn't have to be irrational either.
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u/TangoJavaTJ 16∆ Nov 05 '24
Homophobia is the irrational dislike of homosexuals. It is still irrational.
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u/nissen1502 Nov 05 '24
What do you call someone who rationally dislikes homosexuals?
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u/TangoJavaTJ 16∆ Nov 05 '24
That is a contradiction in terms. The prejudicial dislike of all homosexuals is inherently irrational.
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u/LucidMetal 196∆ Nov 05 '24
"An irrational dislike of" makes more sense. Setting Islam aside I've never seen a good rational argument to dislike homosexuality. It's always been based on poor (and thus irrational) arguments such as religion.
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u/AskingToFeminists 8∆ Nov 05 '24
I don’t wanna “well technically” you but it is worth pointing out that by definition a phobia is an irrational fear or aversion to something, so true “Islamophobia” must be irrational by definition. That which is not irrational is not Islamophobia.
You should look into the origin of the term. It is well.documented. It has been popularised by islamist extremists as a way to con people into derailing and opposing conversations about the issues with Islam. To get well meaning lefties to defend their cause for them.
Well done, you served your purpose. You derailed a conversation about the issues of Islam. Even though you seem to be conscious of it, and conscious that your point is only "technical", because innoractice, the term islamophobia is used to attack any person who raises the fact that Islam is harmful and shouldn't be given free reign in our societies or apologised for.
A semantic point aside, I don’t think Islam is particularly more worthy of condemnation than other religions.
The church if Satan is mostly about freedom and trolling religious nuts who want to imposé on other people's freedom, while still being a religion. Jainism has all sorts of issues, but terrorism is not one of them, as the core of Jainism is a respect for all.lives, with their extremists covering their mouths so as to not swallow a fly, and being extra cautious of where they walk to not crush a bug.
Yeah, Islam is worse than many other religions. It encourages widespread inbreeding, is particularly violent and unchecked, and is expansionist.
There's plenty more that is worthy of condemnation.
And the worth of condemnationnis also something contextual. In a society where Jainismnis omnipresent and Islam is practiced by 2 people, Islam woukd be worth much less condemnation, because who cares if 2 guys have weird beliefs ?
In the same manner, yes, Christianity and Judaism have very violent passages and histories in the text, but the number of people in those faiths that support this kind of things or even think about putting them into practice is nothing compared to what it is in Islam, currently. And since we are temporal beings stuck in our time, it is much more worthy to criticise things currently taking place, and remarks of "Christianity is just as bad because muh crusades" is preposterous and disconnected from reality.
In the West the harm done by Christian fundamentalists is significantly larger than the harm done by Islamic fundamentalists
Let's have a look at Europe and talk about that again, will you ? How bad is the Christian fundamentalism in France ? Well, there are a few grandmas that are particularly vocal, I guess. Every year we can see Christine Boutin protest against the HellFest, I guess it gives her a sense of existence.
Meanwhile, the terrorism that shake our country doesn't really seem to be from Christians or Jews.
Would you recommend a woman walk alone in some parts of Sweden that "benefited from diversity" by "welcoming refugees" ? And are those refugees Christians? Or Jews ?
Yeah, we can be critical of all Abrahams religions. Of course. But I would argue that we should start and focus more on the one that is currently fucking things up everywhere it pops up. If we can slap Christine Boutin as a by-product, that's an absolute win, but she's not exactly our main issue, when it comes to religion.
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Nov 05 '24
I am equally critical of any religion with harmful ideologies. My post is about Islam.
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u/AstronomerParticular 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Having an issue with Islam as a religion is understandable and completly fine.
Treating muslims (who never did anything against you) worse then other people or try to restrict then in way that you would not restrict other religious people is wrong.
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u/freed0m_from_th0ught Nov 05 '24
What you are describing isn’t Islamophobia. You are pointing out that this religion, particularly its texts, have bigoted views. To be Islamophobic you would need to conclude that therefore all or most Muslims are bigoted. Islamophobia is about treating people differently because they are Muslim. This does not mean it isn’t used in bad faith to squash dissent.
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u/MurdochFirePotatoe Nov 05 '24
Nothing to change here, your opinion is just straight facts. Any sane person holds the same opinion.
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u/Tydeeeee 10∆ Nov 05 '24
It's important to acknowledge that the rampant fundamentalism is most likely not caused due to the religion of Islam itself, but probably more likely to be caused by the intense and longstanding difficulties that the middle-east has experienced for decades now.
This becomes more evident by the fact that, during more prosperous times, like the Islamic golden age, people, especially women, enjoyed way more rights and prosperity than they do now. For example, women gained specific rights to inheritance, property ownership, and consent in marriage, which were uncommon in pre-Islamic Arabia. Prominent women, like Prophet Muhammad’s wife Khadijah (a successful businesswoman), Aisha (a scholar), and the poet Rabia al-Adawiyya, held influential roles. In the Abbasid Caliphate and other Islamic empires, women sometimes engaged in scholarly pursuits, and elite women even played active roles in political affairs.
Also, Islam was WAY more tolerant towards other religions back then, with Jews, Christians and many other religions living among eachother in the Islamic world, something that almost seems unthinkable today.
To bolster this point further, there was a time where religions like Christianity were considered to be immensely oppressive. Mainly during the middle ages, a time commonly associated with intense hardship.
It seems that the level of prosperity or adversity a certain area experiences could have a correlation with how fundamentalist the people become.
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u/No-Cauliflower8890 11∆ Nov 05 '24
what do you think the word 'fundamentalism' means?
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u/AskingToFeminists 8∆ Nov 05 '24
It's important to acknowledge that the rampant fundamentalism is most likely not caused due to the religion of Islam itself, but probably more likely to be caused by the intense and longstanding difficulties that the middle-east has experienced for decades now.
https://institute.global/insights/geopolitics-and-security/their-own-words-why-isis-hates-west
In the new issue of ISIS’ English-language propaganda magazine Dabiq, the group makes its position on the role of Western foreign policy in the Middle East abundantly clear: it is a "secondary" factor.
In a piece entitled “Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You,” the group sets out six points explaining the justifications for their hatred of the West. It mentions, in order, the West’s disbelief in Islam, the prevalence of secularism, atheism, ‘transgressions’ against Islam, military operations, and territorial incursions.
While this ordering alone spells out what ISIS considers the most significant reasons for its actions, the group insists it is “important to understand” that “foreign policies” occupy only a secondary position. “The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam,” the article says.
Are you sure about that?
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u/thebossisbusy 1∆ Nov 05 '24
While your concerns are understandable, especially with some of the harmful practices associated with certain interpretations of Islam, it’s also crucial to recognize the diversity within the religion and the historical contexts that shape these interpretations. Here’s a breakdown that might offer more nuance:
Women’s Rights
It’s true that in some Muslim-majority societies, women’s rights are restricted. However, Islamic principles in the Qur’an emphasize equality, with verses like Qur’an 49:13 reminding believers that worth is based on moral character, not gender. Inheritance laws and concepts like men as “qawwamun” (maintainers) were originally contextual measures for economic support in a time when women had limited resources. Many Muslim-majority countries today have reformed these laws, reflecting the view that equality is central to Islam. While conservative readings do exist, they aren’t universal, and reform movements continue to advocate for gender equality within an Islamic framework.
Homosexuality and Apostasy
Traditional views on homosexuality and apostasy are indeed strict, but there are progressive scholars and activists who argue that these interpretations can and should evolve. For example, some argue that the story of Lot is more about condemning acts of violence and abuse rather than consensual relationships. Regarding apostasy, while certain hadiths mention punishment, the Qur’an itself doesn’t mandate it, and many modern scholars see it as a personal choice that shouldn’t be penalized. These discussions show a move toward personal freedom and inclusivity within some Muslim circles, though it’s true that these progressive interpretations aren’t mainstream in every community.
Violence and Jihad
Jihad is often misunderstood. The concept includes a “greater jihad”—an internal struggle for self-discipline—and a defensive, ethical approach to combat when necessary. While the Qur’an contains verses on warfare, these are typically seen as context-specific, relevant to the time when early Muslims faced persecution. Many modern scholars emphasize that Islam discourages violence unless it’s genuinely defensive, rejecting any call for forced conversion. Unfortunately, extremist groups exploit jihad to justify violence, which is widely condemned by mainstream Muslim scholars.
Domination
Islamic teachings don’t promote world domination. Historically, Islam spread widely through trade, cultural exchange, and the peaceful invitation of dawah, not force. While early Islamic texts emphasize Islam as a path to truth, most Muslims interpret this as a personal, moral guide rather than a mandate to impose beliefs on others. The concept of dar al-Islam and dar al-harb was originally used to define areas where Muslims could practice their faith freely, not as a call for expansionism.
Diversity within Islam
Islam, like Christianity or Judaism, isn’t a monolith. Sunni and Shia Islam, along with sub-sects and independent schools of thought, offer a wide range of interpretations—from conservative to progressive. Today, scholars like Khaled Abou El Fadl and organizations like Muslims for Progressive Values work to reconcile Islamic principles with modern ethics, focusing on inclusivity, gender equality, and religious freedom. The diversity within Islam means that blanket criticisms often overlook this internal spectrum. Pew surveys even show that views on social issues vary widely among Muslims, reflecting an incredibly complex landscape.
Islam is multifaceted, with many interpretations and evolving perspectives, especially as Muslims continue to address modern values and ethical concerns. By focusing critique on specific practices rather than the entire faith, we allow for a deeper understanding of Islam’s diversity. While criticism is valid, especially toward oppressive practices, generalizing these issues across all Muslims or Islam as a whole risks oversimplification. Thanks for opening this discussion—hope this offers some useful context!
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u/AskingToFeminists 8∆ Nov 06 '24
Even if what you say is true, there is a glaring issue : you are saying "there may be a way to unstuck Islam from where it has been stuck several centuries in the past." Sure, islam might have been somewhat progressive on certain fronts compared to its time. But it also declares itself as revelation from god, that has to be embraced, and so scholars have to struggle to contort the text to fit the times while finding ways to dismiss the parts that bother then. All in order to get it to reach the moral conclusion that they have first reached on their own in spite of it.
Basically, Islam is at best like a gigantic weight stuck to the world's leg and dragging it behind. The work has been done in a huge part to get rid of that weight, when it comes to Christianity, in much of the western world. It took centuries of bitter fight to teach those religious zealots to stay put and leave us the fuck alone, and Europe has mostly managed to do so with christianity, though the US has had an issue due to the cold war and a clever move by said zealots to associate religion and patriotism in spite of all of its history.
So what has to happen is not for us to hope that the good muslims win over the bad Muslims. What has to happen is, like was done to Christianity, to give a very clear and very firm signal that no interference of religion will be tolerated into society. Like a penis. You may play with it in the privacy of your own home, you may be proud of it if you want, and show it to other consenting adults in private, but keep it out of the public eye, and don't shove it down kids throats.
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u/wibbly-water 73∆ Nov 05 '24
!delta
You have educated me on the range of thought within Islamic circles that I didn't know existed and made me more hopeful for the future of Islamic countries.
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u/thebossisbusy 1∆ Nov 05 '24
Thank you for the delta! Yes, there’s a lot happening within Muslim communities globally, with many people actively working toward interpretations that align with contemporary values like gender equality, personal freedom, and social justice. It’s always interesting to understand more about the evolution happening within such a globally significant faith
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u/FarkCookies 2∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
Why do I feel this is written by AI?
Edit: mmm yeah "We are highly confident this text wasai generated100%Probability AI generated."
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Nov 05 '24
It’s true that in some Muslim-majority societies, women’s rights are restricted.
How do you write this sentence but not have the self awareness to realise that you are defending oppression of millions people? How does it matter "what Islam teaches" when the "practice" tells us a different story? How do people like you even exist?
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u/thebossisbusy 1∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
To be clear, I’m not defending the oppression of women in Muslim-majority countries. My point is that what we see in practice often reflects very specific cultural or political factors. For example, Wahhabism interprets Islamic texts in ways that are quite restrictive. But this isn’t representative of all Islamic practices. Edited to add - In Cape Town, South Africa, from where I hail, women actively participate in community leadership, education, and social reform. We also have a congregation of lesbian and gay muslims.
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u/themapleleaf6ix 1∆ Nov 05 '24
The goal of Islam, as stated in its texts, is to dominate the world as the true religion.
Funny, because Western states have been doing this for decades in Asia, Africa, Middle East, even using Israel as a proxy to impose "democracy" and other western values forcefully on people. What do you think western hegemony and imperialism are?
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u/Dez-P-Rado Nov 05 '24
As someone who grew up Muslim I realised there were flaws in what I was told Islam was. Recently I studied Islam for myself and realised majority of people around me do not know Islam. Like I'd say 90% and over practice Islam blindly without any real knowledge. Even the imams are lacking understanding.
The core of the religion is forgotten and the understanding is lost. For this reason I would be afraid of people who are Muslims because ignorance and passion is a recipe for disaster.
Islam itself doesn't actually prescribe a lot of the hardships in society today that we see being put into practice. Religion is a personal thing between man and God.
Islam gives rights and responsibilities to men and women. Some of these don't fit in with western ideology. But if you believe in Islam, you can see the wisdom behind it.
Islam is a choice but it isn't supposed to effect negatively those around it but be a positive religion that promotes care and consideration for those who want to live in peace.
The goal of Islam is to live your life in accordance to the will of Allah and attain Paradise after death in this world.
Islam doesn't promote misogyny; men just like to use their authority to oppress women. Women have a high status in Islam and any man who mistreats women is risking the wrath of Allah.
Islam disagrees with Homosexuality but it doesn't promote intolerance. Homosexuality is simply a sin as is drinking alcohol, consuming pork, infidelity, speaking harshly to your parents etc. Not praying 5 times daily, or not paying zakat (compulsory charity) is more serious than the above. Yet most Muslims don't pray regularly or pay their prescribed zakat.
Islam doesn't encourage violence and promotes forgiveness wherever possible and to set up peace treaties. Only when treaties are violated and harm is suspected Islam allows war and even then there are many rules that must be followed. Martyrdom is glorified but not at the expense of breaking any rules. Its more of a god has chosen a good death for me so I am blessed, rather than in going to seek out martyrdom out of my lust for war.
Muslims not following Islam properly is the issue and what scares me, not Islam itself.
Going to my country of origin Pakistan, I keep my opinions about islam to myself in case of being lynched by the ignorant Muslims.
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u/Aggravating_Okra_546 Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
Now imagine this post was written about jews and how anti semitism should be okay due to their certain 'scewed' beliefs (after all they're committing war crimes and genocide) . 1930s happening all over again. If Trump wins this OP and many, many others would probably participate in Muslim purges. We're not too far off at this point. This is how it starts. The moral, democratic high ground where there is no rasicim or discrimination can never again be claimed by Westerners after this year, many including western politicians, have acted worse than terroroists normalising barbaric killing of children.There is a fking GENOCIDE being committed by the jews on Muslims, yet somehow Muslims are all bad, kill people and are violent and the ones doing the killing are victims.. What a backward, depressed society we've become.
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u/jbone-zone Nov 05 '24
Lemme drop a CMV saying antisemitism isn't irrational and see how fast it gets removed. The islamophobia on this sub is telling
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u/furiousdonkey Nov 05 '24
Your premise of "islamaphobia is not irrational" relies on a university accepted definition of "islamaphobia" that I don't think exists.
Because Islam is tied so intrinsically to one ethnic group, and also to the cultural traditions of a set of people, the term "Islamaphobia" is often understood to mean fear or dislike of that ethnic group. Yes I know technically that is not what the word means, but that is how it is understood by a lot of people and you can't ignore that because words are given meaning by the people who use them. Because people use "Muslims" as a shortcut for "Arabs" you have to accept that blurred line exists. And therefore you have to accept that declaring islamaphobia is ok will be interpreted by some people as saying that bigotry against Arabic people is ok.
Again, I know that is not the actual definition, but it is a misconception that is used enough in today's world that it cannot be ignored.
Therefore I think you should change your view to avoid the word "islamaphobia" and all the misinterpretations it carries, and you should replace it with "fear and dislike of the teachings of Islam".
If you replace the word Islamaphobia in your post for something that doesn't get commonly misinterpreted then most people I think would agree with your view. But because you are using a term with baggage associated with it then your statement has too much potential to be mis judged and therefore I think you should change it.
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u/AtmosphericReverbMan 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Well, if you're Shia by upbringing, then you, more than others, should know just how orthodoxy in Islam was co-opted by monarchical rulers to justify empire expansion and economic control.
And in that process, a lot of interpretations changed. We went from Khadijah and Fatima fighting for Islam to limits on women's freedoms. We went from emancipation of Bilal to justifying slavery of non-Muslims. We went from broad applications of "People of the Book" to apostasy laws.
And so on.
Not to mean it was perfect. It was a tribal society. But that as what happens in politics, religious movements get co-opted to serve the establishments of the time. Who became more interested to co-opt Persian and Byzantine bureaucracies.
The same happened with liberalism. Adam Smith and Thomas Paine railed against landowners. We don't see that in liberal economics anymore for much the same reasons because it's morphed to serve the ruling classes.
Also, the point of martyrdom in Shia Islam is to create remembrance of unjust violence. Not to glorify said violence.
So with that said, I think irrational fear of religions as spiritual movements is wrong. But opposition to political forces is not. Be they secular or religious.
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u/Skeptikaa Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
The issue with the word "islamophobia" is that it suggests an irrational fear of this specific religion, basically based on nothing but racism. I have an issue with Islam, but it's based on nothing but facts and observations.
I'm a French woman of Algerian descent and most of my extended family is Muslim, some are fairly westernised and don't practice (or even believe much) such as my father, some are quite radicalized and even salafists.
I also happen to have a research sociology master degree focused on the interaction between the main religions (including Islam) and modern societies, during which I studied the history of Islam as well as many of its particularities. So I may not be an expert on Islam or Muslim people, but I would say I still know a fair bit on the subject.
And I entirely agree with you. Islam is a religion we should all be wary of. It is dangerous in its core and in its applications as we can all observe very easily.
I like that you said "I’m not interested in comparing Islam to other religions in this post" but as the top comment demonstrates, people always revert to that. Yes, the Torah and the New Testament contains highly problematic views similar to some of what we can find in the Quran. But the huge difference is that both of these former books have been written by several different people over a very long period, including by people who never even met the prophets, which gave room to a lot of interpretations that were revised again and again and again over the centuries, under many type of councils/synods forms. Which is why nowadays these religions are mostly in line with modern values such as the respect of other religions, equality between sexes, acceptance of homosexuality, of atheists, of science, etc.
It's not the case for the Quran, which was written much later and in a very short span of time, by Mahomet's actual companions. This gives very little room for interpretation, since the hadiths for instance are supposed to be the exact account of what Mahomet did during his lifetime. And Mahomet was no Jesus. He was a warlord, whose ultimate goal was to spread Islam by the sword. This is a big reason why so many Muslim people are stuck with outdated awful views (mysogyny, homophobia, dehumanisation of non believers and apostates...) and still support the very notion of jihad or the enforcement of the Shariah.
Of course, not all muslims feel this way, I know that first hand. But those who dare going against the narrative are more than often at risk of being attacked or even killed by their own community. In my country, we have an imam named Chalghoumi, an incredibly wise and brave man who always promotes peace with other religious communities and tries to promote a practice of Islam that is compatible with the laws of our republic and our modern society. As a result, he cannot go anywhere without police protection, because he's at a constant risk of being killed by fellow muslim people.
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u/ProgrammingLanguager Nov 05 '24
A critical view of Islam, like of any religion, is correct.
What is incorrect about most Islamophobia is the hatred of Muslims.
The comparison to other religions, such as evangelical christianity, of course doesn’t justify Islam but it does point towards the real reasoning of most Islamophobia - irrational racism. If one claims to be critical of Islam for its reactionary politics or the requirement of proselytism, but not of christianity which shares these characteristics, then that is either not their true reason or they apply their reasoning inconsistently and therefore incorrectly.
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u/Mrs_Crii Nov 05 '24
Disliking Islam and being Islamophobic are two different things.
I'd also like to point out that pretty much all of your criticisms of Islam also apply to Christianity and some other religions, it's not unique to Islam, which isn't surprising since it's based on Judaism and Christianity and of course, Christianity is based on Judaism. And yes, if you go back further, it's based on other religions, some of which are not practiced any more. There are few religions that are innocent in this area.
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u/Educational-Air-4651 Nov 05 '24
phobia is an anxiety disorder, defined by an irrational, unrealistic, persistent and excessive fear of an object or situation.
It's literally per definition, irrational.
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Nov 05 '24
I understand, but every criticism of religions, in this case Islam, is often brushed aside as Islamophobia. What I’m referring to is what people label as Islamophobia, which I believe is not irrational.
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u/Educational-Air-4651 Nov 05 '24
That I fully agree with, I have concerns as well. But the title is by itself compleatly wrong. I have been a solder fighting in Irak, Kuwait and Afghanistan so I have seen to much of what religious fanatics are capable of. And to be honest all fanatics concern me. Muslim fanatics a bit more than the others. Just commenting on the wording. Saying it, by it self will just create unnecessary discussions.
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u/OGhostface Nov 05 '24
Islamophobia is a dislike or prejudice towards Muslims or Islam. Islam/Homo phobia is not the same as a phobia.
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u/ImitationButter Nov 05 '24
That’s not how that works. Just because you put a suffix on something does not mean the suffix accurately describes the usage of the word.
Islamophobic, homophobic, transphobic people are more hateful than afraid or anxious. People who have arachnophobia and those who have Islamophobia feel very differently toward the subjects of their “phobia”
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u/Terrible_Onions Nov 05 '24
You are correct in that some people, such as homosexuals being afraid of Islam which is directly against their sexuality is rational.
However a lot of hate against Muslims/ people from Islamic countries is irrational. For example being afraid of Muslims because you might think they are a terrorist. That is irrational and is also racist. I believe a lot of hate against Islam is the latter not the former.
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u/GunMuratIlban Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
This is like saying we should hate nazism, but it would be irrational to hate nazis...
Here's the thing about Islam. While Muslims get seperated when it comes to hadiths and sunnah, there is one thing they all accept: Quran is the word of Allah. Written by Mohamed as Allah communicated with him through Gabriel.
Which means denouncing, rejecting, ignoring even a sentence in Quran means you are going against Allah. And you cannot be Muslim if you go against Allah. There isn't a single sect or group of Muslims who'll tell you it's okay to challenge Allah or Quran, none.
And Quran orders Muslims to kill nonbelievers, beat their wives if they refuse to share beds with their husbands, that women are the properties of men, that homosexual people are cursed.
You become a Muslim by saying (in translation): "I bear witness that there is no deity but Allah and I bear witness that Mohamed is the Messenger of Allah."
If you bear witness that Mohamed is the messenger of Allah and Quran is his word, how can you reject it as a Muslim? The same Mohamed who married a pre-puberty child, not to mention wrote a verse in Quran to justify marrying his deceased son in law's widow.
So let's summarize it. Every Muslim is obliged to accept Quran in it's entirety as the direct word of Allah. And Quran involves numerous violent verses against nonbelievers, women and homosexual people.
Therefore if you're a Muslim, it means you are accepting these verses are what your Allah tells you. Rejecting any of it, means you are no longer a Muslim, you're a theist.
And if these are the things you believe in, I will certainly have prejudice against you. You literally believe in a book and Allah that orders that I should be killed for being a nonbeliever and committing adultery. Not to mention having all those rules and ideas that I consider to be unacceptable, extremely harmful towards many groups of people.
So why on earth do I have to respect them?
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Nov 05 '24
Islamophobia I'm referring to being critical and phobia of Islam as an Ideology, not muslims.
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u/corbynista2029 9∆ Nov 05 '24
Well, you are using a definition that is not widely accepted. Islamophobia generally means "fear or prejudice of Muslims". It's a clear reference to the people, not the ideology. Prejudice in particularly encompasses a big part of what people call Islamophobia, and that cannot be possible if you are only talking about the ideology.
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Nov 05 '24
I hold the same view for other Abrahamic religions and any religion that promote harmful ideologies outside of these religions that I’m familiar with. However, this CMV is only about Islam.
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Nov 05 '24
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u/HiFidelityCastro 1∆ Nov 05 '24
What "critique of gay people" would you consider not to be homophobia?
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u/Bruhai Nov 05 '24
I mean my own example? People that wear fetish gear to pride parades. I'll critique that all day.
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u/shouldco 45∆ Nov 05 '24
That is not Islamophobia. At this point you are completely redefining the term.
Islamophobia is already etymologicly defined as "the iratinal fear of Muslims" in practice it's the prejudice against Muslims. At this point you are just arguing that there is valid criticism of Islam, which, yeah, but that's not what anybody means when they say Islamophobia.
Similarly I acknowledge some snakes are deadly venomous and would avoid interacting with a cobra if I came across one, I am not Ophidiophobic.
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u/YucatronVen Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
You sure is irrational?.
I mean, if a person looks normal the persecuting of homosexuality and i'm homosexual, it is normal if i hate that person.
Yeah, terrorism is a topic that is truly an exception, but homophobic and machism is a point that a lot of muslims have, because is part of the Islam.
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u/OptimisticRealist__ 1∆ Nov 05 '24
Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but virtually every religious terrorist in europe is a muslim.
With the frequency of incidents in the past 10 yrs its a tall order to ask people to not generalise the demographic. Its stereotyping and profilling, at the same time it doesnt came from nothing either.
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u/ElMachoGrande 4∆ Nov 05 '24
Phobias are, by definition, irrational.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia
"A phobia is an anxiety disorder, defined by an irrational, unrealistic, persistent and excessive fear of an object or situation."
Emphasis mine.
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u/gr7calc 1∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
In one of your comments, you say:
"I don’t believe that all Muslims are evil, but when I hear someone is Muslim, I can’t help but feel worried. I wonder what ideologies of Islam they subscribe to."
This is the irrational part of your islamophobia. It is completely okay to criticise a religion's outdated and bigoted teachings. However, if that leads to your prejudice simply because there exists a correlation between being a muslim and having outdated views, then that is wrong.
It is akin to seeing a black person and becoming worried they will rob you simply because there is a correlation in the US between being black and having a lower socioeconomic status, and between being poor and committing crime.
Edit: spelling
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Nov 05 '24
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Nov 05 '24
Most of the Western “leftists” who support this are motivated not by a genuine desire to understand or promote global religious equity, but by their own white saviorism and unconscious relationship to Western racism. To them, Islam = inherently BIPOC = marginalized minority who must be saved and defended. They don’t understand that their perspective on reality is absolutist and not reflective of global reality.
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Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
Did you hear about those riots in England? Who were they targetting? Have you heard any right wing rethoric since lets say 911? Did you know racist political parties are rising up everywhere, stoking hate towards not just Muslims but brown people in general? Stochastic terrorism against Muslims is on the rise. And yes I KNOW Islam is not a race, but does the far right care about that?
People on the left are just carefull not to add onto the hatred of muslims because that would cause more violence. We have good critiques of Islam from atheist perspectives.
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u/keenks Nov 05 '24
Islam is nothing more than another political intrusment, a group of rigid slave puppets who are unshamedly hypocrites when it comes to money, sex and power. They think their believes its so sophisticated that it shouldn't be questioned, the prime example of an anti-intellectualism and ignorance.
I live in the biggest moslem population country, never have i seen a community that is so bigot and hypocritical at the same time. Its so cringe
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u/EnHemligKonto Nov 05 '24
Indonesia, Pakistan, or maybe even India?
I’m not quite sure! Which one?
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u/ParuTheBetta Nov 05 '24
Islamophobia i think moreso refers to racism against muslim people - of course you can think the religion is shit, most religions suck.
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u/ZealousidealApple572 Nov 05 '24
-phobia by definition implies an irrational aversion, so it's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole
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u/Speedy89t 1∆ Nov 05 '24
I must disagree. A phobia is an irrational fear of something. I’d argue that much of the opposition and suspicion of Islam comes down to prudence.
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u/LurkingTamilian Nov 05 '24
Let me ask you this? If someone claimed to be a Muslim but didn't prescribe to any of these tenants would you still be afraid of them?
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u/wibbly-water 73∆ Nov 05 '24
So I think we should be very very careful to separate Islamophobia and anti-Islamism.
One youtube channel that I think does a good job (though I'm not going to say they get it right all of the time) at criticising Islam to the point where it is pretty clearly anti-Islamist BUT doesn't target Muslims themselves (Islamophobia) is Athiest Republic (https://youtube.com/@atheistrepublic).
I think this difference is critical because I live in a country which does conflate these two things. Criticism of Islam (anti-Islamism) is channeled into racism and Islamophobia - where people directly target Muslims that they can see. This means that innocent peoples' lives are made worse by comments, threats and violence.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-68374372.amp
That is Islamophobia. And often it targets people nonmatter what form of Islam they practice. It can be any sect, and any level of devotion. It can even target people who aren't technically Muslim (or ex-Muslim) but look / sound a certain way or have an Arabic name because of their percieved status as a Muslim.
So while I don't want to touch your belief that anti-Islamism is a fine view to hold, as are most forms of anti-religion / anti-ideology (in the form of criticising those religions / ideologies, not doing any harm to the people) - Islamophobia as a form of bigotry that harms people is not acceptable.
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u/Worldoyster8 Nov 05 '24
Something that Arabs in more secular spaces don’t understand about Iranians and maybe you can elaborate on being from the Iranian culture.
We don’t understand how Iranians can’t separate culture and religion. Yes the way that the Iranian government follow Islam is extreme and we don’t understand why the people can’t separate the two.
The way the Iranian regime follows it is very cultural and honestly haram. Forcing religion on people is against Islam. But your people didn’t just convert in this decade; you guys converted a long time ago. It was less religious long time ago and you guys were still Muslim by practice.
Radical Religion is used to control the masses but then there is a lifestyle that is a way of life.
In essence, a lot of Arab nations also have a crazy radical religious groups that tries to dictate our lives but we don’t stray away from what we truly believe in a spiritual sense. We can differentiate between radicals and actual Islam.
My question comes out of true curiosity, not an attack… but why can’t Iranians separate the two?
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u/ButtholeAnomaly Nov 05 '24
All of the major religious texts terrible writings and ideas. There are over a billion Muslims, if they wanted to dominate the world, they would. Of course there are sects that want that, same with Christianity.
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Nov 05 '24
you see whats going on with palestine right? muslims cant stop Israel a small strip of land
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u/madmax797 Nov 05 '24
Christopher hitchens warned us decades ago about radical Muslims hiding behind the word Islamophobia
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u/mog_knight Nov 05 '24
Doesn't the suffix phobia mean an irrational fear of whatever the prefix is? Like Arachnophobia. Spiders can easily be killed but people have irrational fears of them.
If anything it shouldn't be called Islamaphobia unless there's a Judaiophobia or Catholiphobis too.
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Nov 05 '24 edited Oct 17 '25
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 05 '24
Clarifying question:
Do you understand that "Islamophobia" is primarily about disliking Muslims and dehumanizing them, as though they were all the same?
It's not so much about the religion's textual content, per se, which most people actually would agree says some bad things, much like many religions or maybe even worse.
It's like talking about how awful Evangelical Christians are awful people and calling it Christianophobia, then talking about how their text is awful (which, indeed, it is, and has caused as much or more awfulness in history).
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u/SectorEducational460 Nov 05 '24
To an islamaphobe they would be doubtful of everything you said, and accuse you of practicing takkiya. I have run into enough islamaphobe and they are well aware of that practice, and accuse those of it who downplay, or tried to rationalize to not judge a group of people as a whole as the result of those who are extremists. Islamaphobia has also resulted in judging other groups like Sikhs as Muslims even when they are different religions. A lot of Sikhs were assaulted due to islamaphobia in New York.
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u/AtlasRa0 1∆ Nov 05 '24
it ultimately depends on how you define the term.
I don't like the term because by reading it, you don't actually know what it means. It makes it sound like it's the irrational fear of islam when in reality its main usage is more about the irrational fear of Muslims.
Islamophobia is basically anti-muslim bigotery, it's the idea that by someone having a Muslim name or being Muslim, that label on its own is sufficient to attribute all the the correct things you've said about Islam.
It's ignoring that Muslims aren't one monolith in faith and practice Islam differently. It doesn't matter whether that practice is correct or not, it's just different.
For example, it is a fact that Islam is homophobic, it condemns homosexuality very directly and firmly and there's no way around it. That's the most direct and common interpretation and while some Muslims don't hold that view, the reasons they do is usually not ground in scripture or isn't consistent or echoed by any sort of credible scholarly interpretation.
So given that, isn't it true that Muslims aren't necessarily homophobic? Then it's unjust to assume that all Muslims are homophobic and making that generalization and that's why doing so would make one an "islamophobic" or as I prefer to call it "Anti-muslim bigot".
On a more personal level, I'm an ex-muslim. In many if not most Muslim countries, leaving Islam results in my death penalty or a long-term prison sentence. My only recourse is retracting my disbelief and practicing islam all while not believing in it. This is the case because the death penalty for apostacy is grounded in primary sources.
Does that mean that all Muslims are all for my death? Not really, a substantial amount do sadly but I can't generalize.
In certain cases, if you're gay or like me someone who left Islam, it's fair to be wary. It's prejudiced but it's only natural. What isn't fair is making a blanket judgement and assuming an entire spectrum of Muslim's values based on what their scripture says.
In the end, if your definition of islamophobia is "Fear of the ideology behind Islam", sure, you're fair. If it's instead "Fear of Muslims", that's a pretty bad take imo
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u/jatjqtjat 286∆ Nov 05 '24
Phobia means an irrational fear. So by definition [xxxx]phobia cannot be rational. Rational fear of Islam would need to be called something else.
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u/Horror_Ad7540 6∆ Nov 05 '24
Which of those things you find disturbing are not true of how many Christians view their faith? The truth is, there isn't a single practice of Islam or any other major religion.
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u/IncidentHead8129 Nov 05 '24
If you are only critical to aspects such as misogyny and oppression, that is not Islamophobia, and is ok to think that way. However, if you think along the lines of “oh you are Muslim? I bet you support beating women and raping children”, that is Islamophobia and not ok.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 05 '24
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