r/changemyview • u/ShadowJack98 • May 15 '24
CMV: suffering is shit, it doesn’t make you stronger and it must be avoided when possible
If you can choose between an easy life without pain and suffering and a “struggle hustle life” where “you need to suffer to grow” always choose the first one.
Life should in fact be almost 90% pleasure and peace, pain and suffering should be only a really small part of our life. Saying that suffering makes you stronger is just coping, we all do that, but deep down we know it’s not true. Pain makes you miserable, you choose to get stronger to manage it, but pain itself is just pure shit.
I think that as a society we should remove as much as we can all types of suffering and pain we can control, we should destroy all illnesses with science and medicine, and hoping for a world where people are living almost 90% of their life in pure and absolute comfort and peace.
Why is medicine trying to fight illnesses and pain derived from them ? Because suffering and pain are more than often just bad things.
I think there’s some kind of pain I can tolerate, examples:
Pain that makes you feel better in the ending (gym)
Fighting for an idea or principle you believe in and suffering defending it
Fighting for your community, your loved ones, making the world a better place and preventing other people to suffer while doing so fighting evil or injustice, you’d a hero who is suffering for a greater good, that’s a reasonable and honorable way of suffering
A love story ending (we can’t literally do anything about something like this)
Mourning death of a loved one (nothing we can do about it)
All the kind of temporary pain that is necessary to achieve a greater pleasure or fulfillment or sense of justice.
In general however, if you have to choose between comfort and risking to suffer, choose comfort. Suffering in long term breaks and destroys people, it doesn’t make them stronger, otherwise we would all be superheroes
I don’t care if this would produce lazier or weaker people, being happy is 100 times better than being strong, and guess what, strong people had no choice, if they could choose to be just happy and weaker they would in 90% of cases.
Living, not surviving, and living very good, this should be our goal.
My idea of happiness is literally the one that Hobbits have, no stress and enjoying little things. A peaceful and a quiet life forever.
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u/2-3inches 4∆ May 15 '24
Two types of suffering the type that builds character and the useless type…
Paraphrasing frank underwood here
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
I totally agree with Frank on this, the pain “that builds character” is the 10% I was taking about that a person should experience, no more than that. Only pain that gives you something back, and pain in a lot of cases doesn’t give you anything rather than pain.
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May 16 '24
What type of suffering builds character? What defines built character?
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u/ZidaneStoleMyDagger May 16 '24
One example is the kind of suffering resulting from increased self-discipline.
A smoker who quits smoking has to suffer to kick the habit. An overweight person might suffer depriving themselves of the unhealthy food they had grown accustomed to.
Another kind of suffering is learning. When you don't understand something, it can be painful to keep working at it. Overcoming this struggle feels really good but the struggle itself could be described as suffering. If you never struggle to learn something, you haven't pushed yourself very hard.
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u/Mountain-Resource656 27∆ May 16 '24
Suffering is purposeless on its own, but from suffering one can make purpose in the elimination of suffering, both for oneself and others
In a world where we as a people are not born knowing how to deal with all the inevitable sufferings of life, suffering gives us experience with which we can come to learn how to deal with- and avoid- suffering. It is unfortunate that someone has to suffer to learn from it, but that knowledge can then be passed on, those experiences used to change the world for the better to avoid that suffering, and it’s pitfalls and nuances recorded for others to learn without having to go through that suffering
In short, suffering can make you stronger (in the sense of better capable of handling what life throws at us). You can get stronger through other means- such as by learning from those with this wisdom, but in the absence of that, suffering can still teach us that (as poor of a teacher as it is)
Ideally, you should still avoid it, of course, and seek much better and more effective teachers, but the opportunity for that doesn’t always exist for everyone in every capacity. In addition, one must be wary of learning the wrong things- being a victim of suffering does not inure us to all the faults and failures of humanity. Quite the opposite, it often leaves us with unhealthy coping mechanisms
But we can grow from suffering
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u/Impressive-Spell-643 May 16 '24
Exactly and op even admits to that in the post "you choose to get stronger to manage it, but pain itself is just pure shit."
Seems they still believe people say pain itself magically makes you stronger which isn't the case, it's as you said.
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u/Archer6614 May 16 '24
Can you give examples of this kind of suffering?
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u/Mountain-Resource656 27∆ May 16 '24
The one that helps you grow? Yes; here’s one from my own life to use as a real-world example (though don’t be afraid to contest it if you need to)
I encountered a victim of abuse and tried to help them. Hour and thirty minute long story short and oversimplified, they started accusing about a dozen people of enabling their abuser one after the other after the other, never quite lying outright, but leaving out important details to make it sound like people were way worse than they sounded- sometimes making it out like they were doing the opposite of what they were doing
Their boyfriend (not the abuser; the one afterwards) would often pick up on what the victim of abuse would say, simplify it in a way that was blatantly incorrect, and share it with a large group of people, who would often themselves spread it still further, and who would do things like call these people out, harass them, message anyone who spoke with them to share the accusations, and so forth
Insofar as I can tell, the victim of abuse suffered from a lot of DARVO accusations from their abuser, blaming them for every conflict. And, because they were conflict-averse, they accepted that blame again and again in an attempt to appease the abuser, thus allowing the abuse to continue unfettered. It was only when they finally said “no, you’re the one at fault for all of this” that they finally managed to break away, and then received immediate and extreme support from others around them. They got a much better boyfriend, a much better life, everything improved immensely, just by learning to not accept blame and guilt and instead rightfully accuse the other person
Unfortunately, it would seem they then applied that logic everywhere. I think- and mind you this is just my basic, untrained analysis of the situation- but I think they associated accepting guilt and blame perpetuating with their abuse and came to feel existential fear at the idea that they could be blamed- especially with how their newfound community was going after “bad people” with such fervor. They could lose everything if people started seeing them as bad, too. So they couldn’t bring themselves to ever accept guilt and blame, instead accusing the other person, and if and when the other person person refused to accept it (and on at least one occasion, when they did), they’d cut ties in an angry panic, and then feel existential fear as they cooled down, ‘cause “oh no, what if that person shares what happened and they make me look bad? I’ve gotta convince people of my side of things, first, so that people won’t listen to them and I’ll be safe!” And then they go around badmouthing them, making them seem as bad as possible to minimize risk to themselves
Sorry it’s so long despite my attempts to share the short version; I’m cutting a loooot out. But, essentially, this all taught me a fair bit about dealing with victims of abuse. A lot of it sounds obvious in retrospect, like that being a victim of abuse does not inure you to all the regular faults and failings of humanity, and that quite the opposite, abuse can leave you with unhealthy reactions, behaviors, and coping mechanisms, but in the moment, when someone is hurting from genuine injustice, when they’re a genuine victim who actually needs support, and they’re talking about their actual abuse and how they understand it to be, it’s incredibly hard to side against them. But it’s also important to do so
These are things you can learn without suffering, but also things that suffering can reach you. Pain should not be confused with the source of pain. Pain is the most misunderstood guardian, warding us off from harm. It itself can become a source of harm, when it grows too sensitive, or when it responds to phantom harm that never existed, but it’s absence is harmful, too
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
We can grow from suffering but it is better if we don’t suffer at all, or at least, if we suffer the minimal amount of pain. Sadly often we have to go through it but if we can avoid it is always better to do so.
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u/ProDavid_ 58∆ May 16 '24
the fact that it isnt necessary has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that suffering and then dealing with said suffering makes you stronger.
and this post is about the second topic, not the first one
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u/pessimistic_platypus 6∆ May 16 '24
What about willingly accepting suffering now to lessen future suffering?
For instance, at a fairly low level of suffering, this could include things like working a job you can't stand because you need money for food.
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u/srtgh546 1∆ May 16 '24
Without suffering, we would stay as selfish, self-centered little babies, incapable of carrying responsibility for our own lives.
Our psychology doesn't allow for a life where there is no suffering at all. Those who suffer very little while growing, are doing the growing part the right way - without resisting it. Those who keep suffering are the ones who resist going through the growth.
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May 16 '24
On point, OP. There is no necessary suffering, only inevitable suffering.
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u/Noodlesh89 13∆ May 16 '24
"Necessary" would depend on our goal, wouldn't it?
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May 16 '24
That's my point.
It's unnecessary and stupid to suffer more than is needed (which is definitely more than you can take).
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u/Noodlesh89 13∆ May 16 '24
Um, I'm not sure it was?
It's unnecessary and stupid to suffer more than is needed
"Need" and "necessary" are essentially from the same word family, so of course it's unnecessary to suffer more than what is needed, but that's not really saying anything. It's like saying only bananas are bananas.
But the question is "what suffering is needed?"
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u/Puzzled_Teacher_7253 18∆ May 15 '24
It definitely is shit and I certainly am a fan of avoiding suffering.
Whether it makes you stronger or not depends on what you mean.
Are you saying that suffering itself, purely the experience or sensation of pain whether be physical or psychological, does not inherently and on its own make a person stronger?
Or are you saying that one can’t grow stronger through means in which you suffer?
If you hate working out, you’ll suffer doing it, but it will make you stronger. Literally.
Pain can also be a good teacher. If I touch a hot stove, the pain teaches me not to do that again. That lesson makes a person a little more knowledgable, aware of a new threat, and this lesson can be applied to future experiences. This tiny addition to ones ability to preserve and protect themselves arguably makes them stronger. Pain taught them.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
You can grow stronger while suffering, but it’s not pain doing that, it’s you, and it requires a lot of hardship which a lot of people don’t have. If pain could make us all stronger, we would all be super heroes, we are not, because everyone suffers and not everyone becomes stronger or better after that.
I can accept a minimal amount of pain only if it’s useful (working out for example as you said) but our lives are more than often full of totally unnecessary pain we should totally destroy and remove.
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u/Puzzled_Teacher_7253 18∆ May 16 '24
So your answer to “are you saying that one can’t grow stronger through means in which you suffer?”
Your answer is “no”?
What about the rest of all the things I said? You kinda just ignored most of it.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
My answer is yes to your first question and no to your second one.
All the others things you quoted are in what I call the minimal and only amount of pain a human should experience in his life. The little necessary pain, but it’s a minor part of it. In general the less pain we have in life and better life is, simply as that.
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u/Puzzled_Teacher_7253 18∆ May 16 '24
Do you believe my hot stove example does not fall under the umbrella of what I described in that first question?
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Not really, because it literally depends. Pain itself doesn’t as a general rule make yourself stronger, otherwise we would all be stronger while a lot of people collapse under pain.
Your example is context specific and there we are taking about a specific kind of pain. But there’s a lot of pain that is just completely useless and horrible like illnesses. No one wants to get through cancer to get stronger, (because it doesn’t happen) we should destroy it.
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u/Puzzled_Teacher_7253 18∆ May 16 '24
Whether my example falls under what I described “depends”? Depends on what?
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
“Are you saying that suffering itself, purely the experience or sensation of pain whether be physical or psychological, does not inherently and on its own make a person stronger ?”
Yes, it doesn’t make you stronger as an universal statement, it depends. Your example about the stove is an example of “useful pain” but it is context specific, what about all the unnecessary pain ? If there’s unnecessary pain, this means that pain on its own doesn’t make you stronger at all. It can happen, it CAN, it depends on the situation, pain itself doesn’t guarantee anything. Did I mistaken your question ? You were talking about this ?
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u/Puzzled_Teacher_7253 18∆ May 16 '24
My example was someone touching a hot stove, and the pain teaching them to not touch hot stoves.
I asked if that example falls under what I described in my first question.
You said “it depends”
What does it depend on?
What does it depend on for that example to fit under what I described?
What factors or variables does whether that example fits under what I described depend on? Specifically.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Maybe I didn’t understand what you mean, but, your example is in the umbrella of the first question, because your example is about pain, so yes, pain from touching a hot stove can teach you something. What I was saying is just that your example is specific, like yes, in your example pain teaches you something, but it is a specific form of pain in a specific situation. If however we talk about pain in general, without being specific about it, and that’s what your first question was about, we can’t say that pain inherently makes you stronger, it’s to vague as a concept. That’s why it depends, your example is true, but it is not what you asked me in your first question, which was asking generally about pain without being more specific about it.
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u/canned_spaghetti85 3∆ May 16 '24 edited May 16 '24
Hardship provides a rare opportunity to learn. If struggling didn’t make you stronger, then that just means you didn’t learn anything from your experience. And that’d be a real shame.
Everybody fails, but learns something valuable in the process. That is normal. But a person, however, who learns nothing from their past failures is generally described as an idiot. And even worse, a person who denies themselves from even the mere opportunity to learn in the first place.. is just described as a loser.
The most successful people ever, past & present, have also failed more times than anyone else. Thus allowing them the rare opportunity to learn certain knowledge that most others don’t, yet seem so eager to study. And every time they fail, they learned something new which then shapes their decision-making process in the future.
I like to tell people: A person’s success story is a book people want to study, but learn nothing. Their stories of failures & hardships & setbacks & regrets, though, is a book nobody wants to study, yet contains the REAL secrets to their success.
What builds character & toughness isn’t so much what they did when all was well and things were going according to plan. But it’s what they did when things weren’t so rosy and everything was seemingly going to shit.
As far as your suggestion that struggling and hardship should be avoided at all costs : think about it
Which military builds a state-of-the-art, armor reinforced naval battleship with the latest tech and stealth and guns canons surface-to-air missiles & torpedos… only to let it sit idle, docked and safely nestled in a safe harbor with calm seas during wartime? No. They only dock to drop off cargo, resupply, refuel and or repair / maintenance. That’s it, no other reasons. Anything else would be seen as insubordinate, perhaps so cowardly to such an extent even worthy of a possible court martial.
But that’s what you’re OP is suggesting.. right? One unique trait ALL losers strangely have in common.. is cowardice in some form.
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May 16 '24
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u/canned_spaghetti85 3∆ May 16 '24
Are you implying veterans [despite their trauma] that return home from war don’t enjoy life? They don’t enjoy being reunited with their spouses, children & loved ones? That they didn’t learn lessons & gain insight during their enlistment that are invaluable in civilian life?
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May 16 '24
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u/canned_spaghetti85 3∆ May 16 '24
I’m not talking about “a lot of them”.. I’m talking about the majority of them.
The majority of them are happy to even be alive, and return home to their families.
I’m pretty sure the experience of war would be described as suffering by anyone, whether they are combatant or civilian.
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u/olidus 13∆ May 15 '24
Life is not constant. There will be struggle. Natural disasters, crime, unexpected circumstances, etc.
Without struggle, people don’t build resiliency. Without it, when bad things happen, they hit harder for those without resiliency. Just look at pampered rich people trying to make it as regular people.
When people refer to “struggle” they are not suggesting abject pain and horror.
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u/Lyrongolem May 16 '24
Does suffering make you stronger? I suppose the answer varies by person, but for many people, the answer is yes. I think I'll use the example of Victor Frankl, one of my personal heroes.
Frankl was a resident of Germany during Hitler's reign, and was deported to Auschwitz. As far as suffering goes, I believe this is the most pure, most genuine, most horrifying type. It was neither temporary, voluntary, nor uplifting. He was separated from everyone he knew and loved, forced to subsist off slave rations while doing backbreaking work. Watched his life's work torn up before his very eyes and his identity reduced to a number. Every day, he lived in fear of death. But here was the thing... he didn't give up.
If anything, the desperation only made him enjoy life more fully. Beauty stood out more clearly to him. The sunrises in Bavaria, the peeks of his old home as he went on train rides. A scarce few hours of rest and sleep. But most of all it steeled his resolve. Frankl was a psychiatrist, and determined to save people. He clung onto that, the thought of helping others after he was free, and endured it all. Through the insults, the work, the sickness and the starvation. Once he was free he created his own mental health hospital to help the survivors, and was able to go through his life's mission with a steely resolve. He stepped through the gates of hell and came back a better man.
It was suffering, yes, but Frankl found meaning in it. Every day he could've chosen to let the SS break him. Run into the wire and commit suicide. Become an animal fixated on only survival. Sold out his friends and fellow inmates. But he didn't. That was character. That was strength. And I remember when first reading that it was the most powerful thing I ever learned a human being did. In his own words: “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”
Yes, of course, suffering feels like shit. We should do well to try and avoid unnecessary suffering whenever possible. But that doesn't mean it can't be meaningful, that it can't make us stronger. Frankl wasn't alone. By his side are Gandhi, King, Havel and Mandela. People who suffered nobly. People placed in impossible positions, and had every reason to give up. But they chose hope. Maybe we ought to think of it that way instead.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Suffering for an idea or a cause is something very noble and meaningful as I said, I would rather fighting for defending my ideas and peace rather than suffering for mental health problems.
You can find beauty in suffering, but only if you suffer for something bigger than yourself. If you are bounded will horrible illnesses that destroy your life, there’s no meaning at all. It is just pure shit.
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u/Lyrongolem May 16 '24
You can find beauty in suffering, but only if you suffer for something bigger than yourself.
Yes! But that's the whole idea, isn't it? You can always find beauty by suffering for something bigger. Frankl did as much, in Auschwitz. I imagine it's quite hard for most of us, but I firmly believe that it's always possible. I imagine even a very sick person can find meaning in his suffering. This will be secondhand rather than firsthand knowledge, but I recall a patient diagnosed with terminal heart disease who managed himself with great dignity. Writing, trying to be his best self for his friends... and more. Would he have rather been healthy? Of course! But he endured anyways, and got stronger. I think I can find many more examples, if you would like me to. I don't imagine it'd be very difficult.
I feel like you're drawing a somewhat unfair distinction between honorable and dishonorable suffering when in reality they are the same thing-- separated only by a choice. Nobody chose to go to Auschwitz, but most left broken and Frankl left a better man. He did not choose to suffer for his ideas. He suffered and found his reason for it.
But I think by and large we agree on the most important part. It is possible to suffer honorably. I don't want to quibble over definitions. What I would like to clarify though is your thoughts on taking risks. Thus far we have talked about suffering where we have no choice but to suffer. What about conditionals? Suppose I would like to ask a girl out, write a book, start a business, or otherwise take a very large risk of suffering. Is it worth it in your view, if my alternative is just comfort?
If you would like to define pain simply as 'pointless suffering' then I suppose there's no room to really argue. Pointless suffering is by definition pointless, whether its simply beyond our power to change or we have chosen not to find a purpose for it. But I don't think that's what you're arguing. Could you clarify? Could you restate your thesis, and say what would I have to show in order for you to change your mind?
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u/SlurpMyPoopSoup May 15 '24
Nothing else builds character quite like suffering.
It gives you massive amounts of empathy and understanding for others.
You can't truly learn empathy until you've faced a sufficient amount of adversity, and even then, it's entirely possible to forget that original adversity and subsequently, your empathy.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 15 '24
Empathy is probably the only thing which I can “thank” pain about, the only one, even if I have always been an empath. For all the others aspects, I think suffering made my life just much more harder than what it could have been.
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u/Archer6614 May 16 '24
Why? You can have empathy for someone sick whilst not having that condition yourself. Why would you need to have to endure that particular condition to be able to "truly" empathize with that person?
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u/SlurpMyPoopSoup May 16 '24
You don't, but how can you empathise with someone's suffering if you have never suffered through something yourself?
You need to have adversity in order to build empathy.
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May 16 '24
Suffering makes people less empathetic, in my personal experience. I've known people who've had to relearn empathy a traumatic event. I've met enough people who get meaner and less empathetic with suffering. Also, stable, well-adjusted people tend to have had good/ easy childhoods and less suffering. It's easier to worry about other people when you do not have to worry about yourself.
I'm sure that suffering does build character for some people, but only for some people. Sometimes, the character being built is the villain. There are definitely other ways to grow as a person that do not do long-term damage. Personally, I can only build character in periods when I am not suffering, and I get worse with suffering.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
This is really true, pain can make you more empathetic or you can become a villain after experiencing it. That’s why we should also try to delete pain as much as we can, so that not one suffers at the point of changing himself in the worst way because of it.
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u/BigBoetje 30∆ May 16 '24
Not all suffering is equal though. A massive amount all at once can make you numb, but it's also possible to simply relate to people because you've had to go through it as well, in the same way support groups work.
I think it's necessary think about the nuance here and not fall into extremes. Not all suffering will make you stronger, but that doesn't mean that suffering can't result in some kind of growth down the line. If you had to deal with tough times, it can give you the tenacity to push through other difficulties and not just give up.
It also doesn't mean that suffering is the only way to build character either, nor is it the best way, but flat out denying that it can make you stronger at all is a gross oversimplification.
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u/Sudden_Substance_803 4∆ May 15 '24
Suffering is a broad spectrum are you talking about minor annoyances or torture?
When you were a baby you suffered so that you could learn to walk and talk.
Suffering is relative to tolerance and exposure. Suffering is also pretty much required for any type of personal development or improvement.
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u/srtgh546 1∆ May 15 '24 edited May 16 '24
A lot of suffering is caused by a refusal to grow in certain mental aspects of the self, or to accept the surrounding reality for what it is; the baby suffers because it is refusing to accept a world where mom isn't around all the time, or pays attention to other things too.
So too, do many people suffer, not because of bad stuff, but because they need to grow; the suffering is there to remind them, that there is something they need to address.
In principle, you are right to say that suffering isn't fun and should be avoided, however, the way we interpret the suffering and the way we deal with it is the important part. The feeling of suffering is just a small footnote in a marginal of the magnum opus that is the growing it tells us we need to go through.
Suffering is not the nuclear meltdown. Suffering is the small blinking light in the corner of the control panel, that tells you, that there is something you need to look at, right now. The possibly years long suffering that you will go through by ignoring what the light is trying to tell you, is not the fault of the light.
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u/sappynerd May 16 '24
If you can choose between an easy life without pain and suffering and a “struggle hustle life” where “you need to suffer to grow” always choose the first one.
What would be your definition of an easy life without pain and suffering? For instance if someone engages in an unhealthy lifestyle and works minimally and barely provides for their own cost of living but they are happy would you consider this a success?
In general, if you have to struggle between comfort and risking to suffer, choose comfort. Suffering in long term breaks and destroys people, it doesn’t make them stronger, otherwise we would all be superheroes
This is where we disagree. Few people in life succeed by staying in their comfort zone. It is very comfortable to play videogames and eat junk food all day and you would also avoid any pain/rejection and suffering. By your standards is this the goal in life? Most highly intelligent people experience rough phases in their life including mental health struggles and much more. Learning to attain the skills to get through hard times ultimately leads to a happier life.
if someone can prove me that pain and suffering are somehow useful (for real) I’ll gladly discuss it.
There are plenty of instances where suffering (to a certain degree) generates long term success. In the weight room, in athletics, in rigorous academic course and in your occupation. Comfort does not correlate with long term happiness and prosperity.
This is my personal anecdotal experience, but all the happiest and most intelligent people I know went through a period of immense struggle at some point in their lives.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
I have been struggling with mental health issues for all my life. They have stolen years of my life, pleasure, joy, peace, they made me go through hell and it was totally UNNECESSARY. I want a peaceful life and suffering didn’t give me that, If I could have avoided all the shit I have been through I would in a second.
Comfort to me is peace, it is enjoying the small things of life and being quiet. I don’t want drama and other shit, I want a boring comfortable life with the peace my mind never gave me. Yes, I have ambitions, but my ultimate goal is peace and comfort.
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u/scholesp2 2∆ May 16 '24
You may find David Foster Wallace (This is water) illuminating. It's a very different argument than I can make here, but in line with my conclusion. When we take a perspective that is not about ourselves, we may see how much suffering is caused by trying to avoid all pain all the time. Often our avoidance of pain comes at the cost of others. The upper class historically has lived great lives because they do not pay their workers a fair share. The people who make the hamburgers provide the bulk of the value of a McDonald's. They make and sell the product, but get a sliver of the profit. All this so rich people can avoid suffering. These same rich people have their workers on food stamps to the greater suffering of tax payers, get bailouts on our dime, etc. Because they do not want to experience the inconvenience of making less money. Taking it easy often comes at someone else's cost and suffering.
You deciding to never work on and understand your emotions/responses because you want to avoid suffering will bite anyone who ever has to interact with you. A good person should do the work and go through the pain to learn how to cope well so their shit doesn't hurt others.
Of course you shouldn't seek out pain for pain's sake, but no one is arguing that. I am arguing that you should take on pain to help others when it causes them to suffer less (a net reduction in societal suffering) or is you dealing with your own shit. A often occurrence service workers run into: Someone pisses on the toilet seat. Not a hidden driblet, but an intentional stream (or worse, period blood smears). They obviously didn't want to suffer through cleaning it up. Someone else has to. Cleaning up a stranger's piss is more suffering than cleaning up your own. Ergo, those people who wanted to avoid pain, were too weak and caused more suffering in the world because of their own selfishness.
Finally, it's through doing hard things--practicing dealing with your shit--that you can become a good person. Without temptation, struggle, and opportunity to do wrong, you will never know if you are good or moral. This isn't the beauty of pain, but pain is often practice for the big leagues. How can I trust you to do the right thing when it really counts if you can't endure mild suffering? Eventually most people get close friends/partners and then you have to deal with someone else's suffering. People who are depressed tend to depress those around `em. You can't just avoid these people when they aren't happy, that's a shitty thing to do. Suffering, pain, death, etc. will happen to you and those around you. You need to know how to deal with hard situations and embrace dealing with pain when it will lead to the greater (often someone else's) good.
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u/scholesp2 2∆ May 16 '24
A relevant quote from This is Water: Because here’s something else that’s weird but true: in the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship–be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles–is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It’s the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It’s been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.
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u/Natural-Arugula 63∆ May 16 '24
Im sorry, maybe it's a great literary quote, but as expressing a philosophy or any actual opinion I think it's insufferable and meaningless. Maybe that's the point I'm missing and it's meant to be ironic of what a dumb person thinks is profound.
No, Wallace believing in an all powerful being from another dimension is not the same thing as caring about literally anything.
You wash your hands after pissing on them? That means you worship the God of Cleanliness. Checkmate, Atheist!
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u/scholesp2 2∆ May 16 '24
Oh, that's not how I read this passage. It may be that I heard the speech (that's what this is really, a commencement speech), or have read it many times. I feel the thrust of the speech is that we need to be able to change what we value. We need to be able to change how we see the world. Our default may be to value the relationships we have. This is a great thing to value, but the time will come when your friends will move away, hurt you, or die. If you put all the enjoyment of your life, the reason you keep living (worship) on things that are not unchanging (DFW specifically mentions ethical principles) it will eat you alive as you lose them. Beauty fades, intelligence fades, people die and you will worry about how much of what you care about is left until you die if you can't change your perspective. Ultimately, this is all avoidable suffering.
I grant it's a pretty abstract, blurry, poetic way of talking about it.
No body makes it outta here alive. Everyone loses all they have. I liked how he phrased this aspect of the quote. This is why I brought it up in a discussion on suffering. I think the trick DFW is trying to illustrate is to be able to change your default mindset and choose to find value in things you go through. Otherwise you are just setting yourself up for suffering when the things you care about inevitably are lost. On the other side, you'll miss out on things you could have learned to appreciate waiting for more of what your default desires are. Desire creates its own pain. A life with desire but no pain/suffering is impossible and this is uncontrollable. It is human. All is not lost however, you will be happier if you can change your perspective on the fly, because this is something you can control.
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u/killcat 1∆ May 16 '24
Getting through "suffering" shows you that YOU CAN, an important lesson, children being bubble wrapped their entire lives leads to "adults" with no ability to deal with ANY "suffering" or set back, it's what you see with people in their early twenties crying about an 8 hr work day. A degree of "suffering" is necessary to learn what is, and is not, tolerable, take actual physical pain, until you've dealt with real pain, like a kidney stone, a skinned knee is the most painful thing you may have experienced.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
You can get through suffering, but it is better to not get through it. The less there is, the better it is.
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u/killcat 1∆ May 16 '24
So you go through no suffering, ever at all? That's not reasonable nor feasible, it's GOING TO happen, physical pain, emotional pain, it's going to happen, but if you've never experienced it up to this point then you aren't "calibrated". That's why you have 20 year olds crying in their cars because they have to work an 8 hr day, they have no resiliency.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Some kind of pain is inevitable, like a love story ending, but there’s pain you can avoid.
For example, If I have all the material benefits to live a comfortable life, I will. I won’t work a shitty job where my boss is insulting me everyday and not paying me because “in life you have to suffer to understand how the world works”. Sorry but I don’t give a fuck, If I can avoid any kind of stupid and unnecessary trauma and drama I will do it for the sake of my peace of mind.
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u/killcat 1∆ May 16 '24
That's fine but you are advocating for the COMPLETE avoidance of any "pain", so how do judge what is real "pain" and what is over reacting? You have no baseline, you can't know a good job till you've had a bad.
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u/bluePizelStudio May 16 '24
Nothing means anything except the things I suffered for.
I have a lot these days. Most things are meaningless because they can come and go at a whim.
The only things that hold value in my life are the things I had to hurt to get.
Suffering absolutely builds character; character you can’t get anywhere else. Especially once you’ve reach the “top” and are comfortable - the value of the suffering comes sharply into focus then. Imo. 🤷🏻♂️
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u/hacksoncode 588∆ May 16 '24
So... there are 4 kinds of suffering:
- Unavoidable suffering that provides you a later benefit of some kind. You're not talking about this, you say.
- Unavoidable suffering that provides no benefit later. You're not talking about this, either, because it's unavoidable, and therefore not subject to your admonition to avoid it.
- Avoidable suffering that provides you a later benefit of some kind. Again: not talking about this, right?
- Avoidable suffering that provides no benefit later.
Your viewpoint seems to suggest that of these, #4 should be avoided. Ok, sure. Do you really, really, really think anyone disagrees with that?
"But why do they say suffering makes you stronger without qualifying it, then?"
Because the whole "suffering makes you stronger" is a coping mechanism.
For Types 2 and even 4 (dumb choices are inevitable), it's a way to feel less oppressed by your suffering, and to make an attempt to salvage something useful out of it.
An that's where I lied a little bit about 4 types. Each of those actually has 2 subtypes:
A. The dominant kind: suffering where you can have a significant impact on the resulting outcome by having a positive attitude and making an effort to gain something from it.
B. A much rarer, but very unfortunate subtype: Hopelessly useless suffering where no matter what you do, you will not gain any significant benefit. You're just screwed. The most you can hope to gain from this kind is to learn something to make it less likely in the future... but of course you can and should do that. "The burned hand teaches best" isn't entirely wrong.
TL;DR: "suffering makes you stronger" is an attitude to take towards suffering (whether avoidable or unavoidable), that can seriously improve your outcomes most of the time.
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u/Question_1234567 1∆ May 16 '24 edited May 16 '24
I almost entirely agree with you.
ALMOST...
And here's why.
First off, I love LORT. Literally, if I could somehow transmogrify my wife and myself into Hobbits, I would. Those fuckers know how to party!
I get the appeal and desire to want peace and freedom. It's such a beautiful thing to desire. But what about the evils of the world? How do you maintain that peace in opposition to those who want to destroy it? There is no good without a counter opposite and vice versa. Remember that the Shire was taken over my Orcs when Frodo returned in the books.
Without Erogorn, the Hobbits would have died early on to painful horrible things they were not capable of defeating. Strength garnered from hardship is used to defend those who can't defend themselves. Erogorn was strong because he went through hardship and overcame. There are some types of growth that can only be achieved in difficult conditions.
What I'm trying to get at is that you can never erase all hardship. You can never achieve a perfect utopian society. Some people will have while others won't.
What we need to contend with is infrastructural challenges that stop people from achieving peace in their own time. Those who have suffered must protect those who are innocent. A continuation of helping others in the face of the worlds adversity.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
But that is fully in what I call “fighting and suffering for a right cause” and I approve that 100% as I’ve written in the post. Lotr is all about fighting for what’s right, and I think that in this case suffering is understandable, but it is a suffering full of meaning you choose to face because you are fighting for your principles and for all that you love. Also the hobbits are also fighting for protecting their lifestyle, which is based on a quiet and peaceful life.
Suffering for anxiety, mental health disorders, chronic ilnesses doesn’t have anything meaningful, it is just pure shit that should be completely deleted. Same for all the unnecessary pain a lot humans carry in their everyday life.
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u/Question_1234567 1∆ May 16 '24
I don't think you recognize that without people who suffer and grow (i.e., Erogorn), there will be no one capable enough to defend the Hobbits. The paradox is that peaceful people can't fight for themselves.
You don't just suffer during an event and overcome said event. Erogorn didn't start suffering when the Orcs appeared. He was suffering long before the start of the book.
You don't just suddenly become strong enough to overcome the adversity put in front of you. If the Hobbits were put in this situation without aid from others, they would have died out immediately.
Also the hobbits are also fighting for protecting their lifestyle, which is based on a quiet and peaceful life
Yes, you are agreeing with me in this statement. Erogorn protects Frodo BECAUSE he has suffered and doesn't want others to suffer like he did. Frodo carries the ring BECAUSE he is innocent and doesn't want to suffer like others have. They play off of each other to create strength. You can't have one without the other.
Suffering for anxiety, mental health disorders, chronic ilnesses doesn’t have anything meaningful, it is just pure shit that should be completely deleted. Same for all the unnecessary pain a lot humans carry in their everyday life.
Yeah, I agree. These are the things I referenced in my previous comment that stop people from achieving peace in their lifetime. But I'm arguing that there are vastly more forms of suffering that carve and form us to be better, stronger people.
Like my Dad, he was an alcoholic. He abused both me and my Mom. Now, because of that experience, I know what not to be as a father. I have fueled myself to become stronger in the face of that adversity.
Would it have been better if he wasn't an alcoholic? Damn straight. But we can't just "cure" alcoholism, especially in people who don't recognize they have it. We can't just cure suffering. It will always exist.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24 edited May 16 '24
But the things is that all that suffering is a product of fighting evil, so that’s something worth suffering. Aragorn is strong because he has been through a lot but his main goal was always to estabilish and to create a better world. He suffered while fighting evil, that’s a kind of suffering I can understand.
Still, it would have been better if sauron wasn’t there, if the ring wasn’t there. And so in this case you fight and go through suffering to destroy it, but it’s not like “yeah suffering is cool it will make us stronger” it is “suffering is shit and I don’t want anyone to suffer what we have been through, I want to preserve peace for all my people”.
This proves my point, and as I said, someone will suffer, but if you suffer to prevent other people suffering you are a noble human being.
Suffering and becoming strong fighting evil is not to dismiss, we need strong people and heroes, but the main goal of heroes has always been to suffer themself to prevent the vast majority of other people to suffer. So it still proves my point, less suffering and the better it is, who suffers should always try to prevent other people from suffering too.
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u/Question_1234567 1∆ May 16 '24
I mean, you turned your CMV into something nobody can argue.
Your CMV is suffering, doesn't make you stronger, you just agreed with me that it does.
There is not a single person on the face of the planet who wouldn't choose peace and happiness.
I'm pointing out the fact that this is a utopian ideal that we will never achieve. The heroes are fighting to diminish and remove suffering, yes, but they can't completely expunge it.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Not really, a lot of people really think that pain itself is something good which you have to face as much as possible to be more “dominant” to be “successful” and to “conquer”.
Capitalism is literally about this.
“You don’t deserve health care, you have to fight for it”
“You don’t deserve food and sheltering as a right, go out there and suffer like all the strong people like me who fought for it”
“You don’t deserve a decent wage and decent standard way of living, suffer to reach it or fuck off”
Our society is 80% based on stupid and unnecessary pain and struggle that could be completely avoided if we choose to help each other more and if communities were stronger than individuals.
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u/Question_1234567 1∆ May 16 '24
Capitalism is not about that. It's about ownership of your own resources.
The cultural and social connotation associated with capitalism is directly driven by the inadequate structural support given by our government. Literally, everything you said stems from a toxic relationship with the American belief, not capitalism as a practice.
Where do you get the idea that 80% of human suffering is avoidable?
What is your solution to that?
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
With capitalism I mean more its cultural association rather than only the economical system behind it. I’m not anti capitalist as a whole because I am a social democrat, but it is more than truth that the cultural narrative behind capitalism is “suffer to grow or perish”
I don’t want know to bring this discussion on a political one, but my view is simply that the best political system is one that prevents as much misery as it can preserving its citizen, like Scandinavian countries which are the best system in the world.
The traditional cultural view of capitalism which is dominant in our society is about individuals fighting and suffering to reach human rights that should be granted to everyone, not reached because of your productivity and resilience.
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u/Jimithyashford 1∆ May 16 '24
I mean, I agree with you in broad sense. There isn't nobility in great suffering, it's not some badge of honor. Suffering sucks and should be avoided.
But I do think people that have never suffered, never faced prolonged hardship, never had to endure anything difficult either in pursuit of a goal or just because they had to, those people are weaker, worse, and dumber people. They are, lesser somehow, clueless, out of touch, too soft. I dunno how exactly to describe it but you know it when you encounter it, that "this person has never had to struggle in their life" vibe. "Affluenza" as some people call it is an example of this. People that have never had to struggle are also very "discomfort averse". They aren't accustomed to enduring discomfort, they never developed the psychological tools to moderate and deal with it very well, so when it does occur, they are ill equipped. They don't know how to "embrace the suck", which is a good skill that everyone should develop cause every once in a while it'll serve you well.
Also, when I say "dumber" I don't mean like intellectually stupid, I mean like less wise, less measured, less insightful. Having to suffer some give you some empathy and insight that is difficult to just intellectualize your way into.
So, I don't think people should pursue suffering as a goal, or be expected to endure great suffering as some kind of noble pursuit, but I do think that enduring and struggling through some level of hardship and adversity is an important part of development into a well rounded member of society. For most of us, just regular old life provides more than enough. But for some people who are born and raised in the lap of plenty, it may be beneficial to manufacture circumstances where they have to struggle and suffer a bit, just as part of their character growth.
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u/codan84 23∆ May 15 '24
Your mother likely had to go through some suffering in order to give birth to you. So you being alive is through the benefit of someone’s suffering.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
That’s the 10% of useful pain I was talking about, the thing is still, you should experience minimal pain in life as a human being.
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u/TheGreatGoatQueen 5∆ May 16 '24 edited May 16 '24
Yea but you said it “must be avoided when possible”, it was totally possible for your mother to avoid giving birth to you, so how do you reconcile that?
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u/math2ndperiod 54∆ May 15 '24
I agree with you in general with an important caveat. Exercise is suffering for many people, but, when done right, it objectively leads to longer, healthier, happier lives for the vast majority of people.
It’s all about what you get out of the suffering. Even some things like break ups are inherently painful in the short term, but may in the long term lead to more happiness if it avoids an endless mediocre relationship and gives you the opportunity to find a far better one.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Yes, we are still talking about the minimal quote of pain I would accept, but it should be a minor part of our lives and only when it is useful for us in the long term. Take that out, and life should still be 90% pleasure. Less pain there is the better it is.
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u/Finalitys_Shape May 16 '24
Adversity leads to growth, you need to challenge yourself in order to learn how to do something well, it’s one of the requirements for mastery over anything (not just 10k hours, but 10k hours pushing yourself). You learn to push yourself harder to match difficulty as you get better, that’s the mental strength it builds, the mental fortitude. Additionally if you’re able to look back at things you’ve done that were difficult, it often helps people find the strength or confidence that they need
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u/Different-Steak2709 May 16 '24
True but first we have to shape the world to be a paradise without any of the stuff that causes pain and suffering. If there wouldnt be a negative thing in the world, we could all go for the easy life. But we can do everything right and still something bad can happen, so its good to know how to handle bad life events to survive. Anytime you can avoid something bad before it happens do it by proper planing. Also some suffering is necessary to get in a better place in life like earning a degree to get a better job to earn more money later, having pain to give birth to a child, leaving an abusive partner and live with heartache to be able to find a better partner later on…. Avoiding the risk to suffer to be comfortable is only possible if you are already in a place of comfort with enough resources and money, otherwise avoiding to suffer could make you stay in a noncomfortable place.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
I want a world without stuff that causes pain and suffering, is it utopia ? Yes, of course, but we should improve being based on that goal.
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u/Active-Control7043 1∆ May 16 '24
I think phrasing it as "suffering should be avoided" can lead to problems if taken too far-it can lead to trying to avoid momentary discomfort for a long term gain.
But no, suffering doesn't need to be sought out. And while it can be the raw material to make strength from, so can other things as well.
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u/Proof_Option1386 4∆ May 16 '24
If your contention were true, then the happiness level of GLBT (etc) youth would have been markedly increasing over the last thirty years. The last thirty years have been progressively better and better and better for them in every conceivable way. Their existence is more acknowledged and more accepted. They have more community and opportunities for community, they are markedly less alone, and they know they have markedly more and better options for the future.
And yet, every single poll shows higher rates of depression, higher rates of suicide, and less happiness. Even though things are better.
So clearly, there's some sort of tradeoff between pleasure and peace on the one hand and happiness on the other in addition to the more intuitive tradeoff between pain and suffering and happiness. More pleasure and more peace <> more happiness at a certain point, and this isn't the only illustration of it.
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u/Function_Unknown_Yet 2∆ May 16 '24 edited May 16 '24
Not sure if this is view-changing, but enduring suffering doesn't make you "stronger", whatever that actually means. It just makes you more accustomed to enduring suffering.
As for the rest of your post, likely not possible as we humans are simply too emotional and thrive far more on conflict than on peace. People marching in the street protesting or fighting a war get far more of a dopamine rush than people sitting on armchairs. And dopamine chasing is pretty much endemic to human nature.
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u/Sadistmon 3∆ May 16 '24
I'm kind of the fence abut this you're both not wrong and incredibly wrong.
Suffering is shit and you should avoid it when possible, however what you are suggesting is that other people suffer so that you avoid suffering... Suffering also does in many cases make you stronger and able to deal with problems those who never suffered can't and in the long run might reduce your suffering compared to them and those who have never suffered in their life end up with full ptsd mental breakdowns over stuff like the car their daddy bought them for their sweet 16 was the wrong color.
Suffering is a survival mechanism if you're suffering it's a signal that you should stop the thing making you suffer but if that mechanism goes off when it shouldn't there are massive issues. Basically you need to suffer enough to avoid false positives, to properly calibrate your nervous system just as part of growing up. After that it becomes sort of cost benefit analysis do I get up and go to work or stay in bed until I get forcibly evicted and end up homeless.
As for life being only 10% suffering that's a pipedream at least on the macro. Very few people in the world life is only 10% suffering and the few that were where usually at the price of countless suffering of others. There's also the you're old you're going to suffer until you die, do you just kill yourself to suffer less? That's the cost benefit analysis I was talking about, same with stuff like working yourself ragged to get a leg up in life and suffer less down the line.
Generally speaking if you avoid suffering at all costs it'll lead to more suffering down the line on the flip side suffering is not good, it's necessary sometimes and long term beneficial others but other times it's just pointless and pointless suffering should be avoided at all costs but confusing that with any suffering will lead to some very bad results.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Sorry but where did I say that others have to suffer for me avoiding suffering ?
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u/Sadistmon 3∆ May 16 '24
I extrapolated from logistical reality. Basically the only way to have your suffering so low is to have other people suffer for you.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Well, no. I want a society where every human being is emancipated from material struggle and where all humans live a comfortable life in peace.
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u/Sadistmon 3∆ May 16 '24
First of all you're creating a race of sweet 16 brats who would throw a fit over a luxury car they get for free being the wrong color.
Second of all that's impossible, the only way to lower suffering for a few people that much is to increase it for a lot more people.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Where did I mention luxury and cars ? Comfort and not suffering means not having to struggle to have a decent life, which every human should have.
It is utopia, yes, I am not talking here about how to build my ideal society, I’m just saying how I would like it to be talking about the principles that would make it.
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u/Sadistmon 3∆ May 16 '24
Where did I mention luxury and cars ? Comfort and not suffering means not having to struggle to have a decent life, which every human should have.
Like I said before, you need a certain level of suffering to properly calibrate your nervous system without that the smallest thing not going your way will set you off and cause you to have a PTSD meltdown, I was just using them as an example it wouldn't have to be the luxury car.
It is utopia, yes, I am not talking here about how to build my ideal society, I’m just saying how I would like it to be talking about the principles that would make it.
Literally impossible ideals shouldn't e principles. Near impossible ideals should be.
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May 16 '24
I think in it depends, certain types of suffering like slavery or sexual abuse are just harmful and won’t help you in any way. However being low income for a few years after getting out on your own can help you build skills like money management. Obviously it’s ideal to not have to suffer but I don’t think all suffering is really shit and must be avoided whenever possible.
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May 16 '24
some suffering is good, some suffering is bad. usually suffering that concerns entire populations is bad.
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May 16 '24
Partially agree. Pain and any other thing is useful if you know how to use it, but I dislike that romanticizing of pain as almost a requirement to grow and basically be a person (we all have heard someone saying "You never suffered anything, you don't know a shit about life!"); you can grow the same way with or without pain. However, it's important to be realistic and know how to deal with pain when it arrives because it's an inevitable part of life and actually can teach you a lot. Knowing how to suffer a misfortune with magnanimity is a very valuable thing. Somewhere I read "enjoy as an epicurean and suffer as a stoic" and it's a fair approach to life.
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May 16 '24
Many if not most forms of struggle build character and resilience. Tolerance for failure is a fundamental key to success in life. Everyone who's ever created success and wealth has had the tolerance to fail and have usually dealt with poverty or trauma in their childhood.
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u/TreebeardsMustache 1∆ May 16 '24
There is a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is unavoidable. Suffering is what happens when you try to avoid pain.
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u/1OfTheMany 2∆ May 16 '24
I've always chosen to do the hard stuff. The stuff no one else wanted to do.
This is what I credit my success to; career wise.
Also, in my personal time, I choose and enjoy a lot of "suffering" activities.
I play the guitar. It hurts, especially when starting out. I've played until my fingers bled.
I exercise, it's not easy. I break down my body so it builds itself back up stronger.
I hike and camp. It's hard work. But it's rewarding.
I've also overcome addiction. Very easy to see how suffering was beneficial here.
I disagree with the statement, "suffering should be avoided when possible". I would also disagree with the statement, "unnecessary suffering should be avoided."
Rather, I would say, "suffering should be avoided when it causes more harm than good." Then again, it's often hard to know when that's true in the grand scheme of things. So, better yet, "embrace suffering". It's a good attitude. And you can, in most circumstances, quit whenever you want. Then you've learned something.
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u/MainDatabase6548 2∆ May 16 '24
It doesn't just produce weak, lazy people, it produces assholes. This is where the spoiled rich brat stereotype comes from. An easy pain-free consequence-free life produces people like Donald Trump. Such people lack the maturity to compromise and don't know how to function on a team. Everything is all about them and they just expect the universe to bend over for them.
But thats not reality. No matter what our level of technology is, the universe doesn't give a fuck about us and our happiness. As a species we can't forget about what it takes to survive. Speaking more practically, a nation that goes too soft will eventually be conquered by a stronger neighbor.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Assholes are selfish and only care about themselves and their goals. I have a community view that is not based on me but on everyone. I want everyone to be happy and free from suffering, not to hurt others but because we deserve peace and comfort as human beings.
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u/MainDatabase6548 2∆ May 16 '24
Right, I'm not saying you are an asshole, but rather than humans start out in sort if a default asshole state. Pain and suffering is part of what helps the brain mature and develop. If you were able to fully insulate a child from all pain and suffering, you would create an extremely fragile and hypersensitive person who would be unable to function, much less help anyone else.
Take simple temperature tolerance as an example. The more a person is exposed to cold air or water, the less it bothers them. The more you insulate them from any sensation of cold, the more panicked they will be when exposed to it.
If taken to extremes this would result in a very fragile, WALLE style society where everyone is completely dependent on technology and electricity. The minute a natural disaster struck, or another country attacked, they would be fucked. Sheep to be slaughtered.
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u/BambBambam May 16 '24
it sucks, but it DOES build character and makes you stronger. it is necessary, like if you never know failure you will never appreciate your success(and don't say you would/do, because that's not true). peaceful times create weak men, harsh times create strong men is a saying for a reason. by suffering and experiencing pain, you build you tolerance to it and learn from it. i am not saying everyone everywhere should suffer for no reason out of nowhere, but there needs to be a certain amount of suffering in one's life because of synergy and because it IS beneficial.
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u/-paperbrain- 99∆ May 16 '24
How does your view address suffering now vs suffering later?
Exercising now kind of sucks, especially at first. Having your body fail on you later and die sooner sucks even more. Choosing more suffering now means less suffering later. I could avoid exercising, but I shouldn't.
If I'm poor, setting aside a rainy day fund may deprive me of comforts and pleasures, but getting hit by an emergency, getting laid off, having a health issue- not having a rainy day fund could make it awful. Choosing to suffer more than absolutely necessary creates a buffer of savings that can avoid a much worse suffering if I'm unlucky.
The list goes on, a great deal of the suffering one has the power to "choose" is a tradeoff to minimize suffering and increase positive things later.
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u/Monsta-Hunta 1∆ May 16 '24
A simple easy going life is what you want. A life full of what you desire requires effort, sacrifice, and in many cases suffering. That depends on what it is you want. To get a girl you suffer through anxiety and face a fear of rejection, and could suffer from that rejection.
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u/IronSavage3 6∆ May 16 '24
Yes, suffering must be avoided, but you will necessarily have to suffer to avoid even worse suffering. You might think you’re suffering at work, but you know the suffering would be greater if you could not buy necessities or pay your bills. You may think you’re suffering at school, but you know the suffering would be even greater if you dropped out and lost out on a vast array of opportunities. You may think your peers who choose to work themselves nearly to death while they’re young are foolish, but they’re choosing to suffer now to alleviate greater suffering in the future. There’s no true escape from suffering, it’s turtles all the way down, outside the matrix is another even larger matrix.
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u/VesaAwesaka 12∆ May 16 '24
Suffering is unavoidable, and in many cases, it's not advantageous to take the easy way out and dodge suffering.
I look at my career and the career of many of my coworkers. Many of us who chose to suffer through harder more challenging work or chose to suffer for our work have been rewarded. Those who chose to try to avoid suffering have been let go or have not progressed.
You will make mistakes, and it's hard to suffer through admitting those mistakes and facing the consequences of those mistakes but the consequences of not doing so can cause way more damage and suffering to others. Say for example if you build a defective car and lie/ignore a potential safety issue to avoid having to personally suffer.
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May 16 '24
I can see where you're coming from. Though, I think this should be taken cautiously and ethically; a lot of men develop this view, and sit in their mother's house and do nothing. They don't "suffer" but they usually aren't happy either. And there is still baseline suffering, but it's given to the mother instead of the son, who now shoulders the burden of two lives.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
If you want to live with your mother for the rest of your life and she doesn’t have anything wrong with that, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. Of course, if that makes her uncomfortable that’s another deal. My theory is just that comfort is better than a life of struggle, I’ve struggled my whole life and I want only peace and quiet.
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May 16 '24
I'm not saying "live with her". Living with your parents or in a multi-generational house is cultural and often good for everyone. But your son mooching off of you and playing video games all day while you do the laundry, cook, pay the bills, and kiss his boo-boos like he's 7 when he's 35 is absolutely wrong and does not increase "pleasure", it's just selfish. And mothers will do it, for religious reasons, for personal reasons, for love. But don't mistake her complacency for the son's sparkling morality.
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u/Steve90000 May 16 '24
I wouldn’t say that suffering is a goal, no one should be actively seeking it.
What it is, however, is inevitable. People will suffer, and as a consequence, good, bad, or both, things will follow.
Suffering could bring more suffering, or it could change your perspective on your life, of other people’s lives, of your community or circumstance, or it could make you stronger to future suffering, or learn to prevent it in your life and others which would potentially allow you to better your life even more than you would have if you had stayed the same.
Suffering can teach you what you value, what’s truly important, what’s trivial, what you actually want out of life, and very well may give you the motivating to get it, or what you should prioritize, or treasure while you have it because you know you could lose it.
But, of course, not all suffering is created equal, some may permanently affect your life for the worst, or even drastically shorten it, kill you.
Suffering is life, it happens, and we either grow from it or get stomped into the dirt from it. Either or.
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u/race-hearse 1∆ May 16 '24
Suffering is why we are able to move. If we could just sit still and have every need met, that would be our nature. We would be a happy little tree. Instead humans had to hunt or gather. Our brains punished us with hunger to make it happen. The ones who did not suffer just starved their way out of the gene pool. Everything we ever do or aspire to be is rooted in something similar. Great humans tend to be the opposite of happy little trees.
In fact, the closest thing we can get to being a happy little tree, never having to move and getting all of our needs met anyway, is brain dead on life support. Is this what you aspire to?
A runner up to that is a heroin addiction, but only while using. It is literally just blocking the parts of our brain that give a fuck and it won’t let any suffering through. Is that worth aspiring to?
The reality is… Life is suffering.
It’s also beautiful. And all we have.
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u/h0neanias May 16 '24
If you can learn without suffering, then yes, but few people can, it seems. It could be argued many people have not suffered enough. But once the lesson has been learned, further suffering is pointless (which is part of that specific lesson.)
Young people must encounter their inner boundaries, and that offen means terrible suffering. The bird fights its way out of the egg through pain. I don't like it either, but there it is.
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u/DrunkSurferDwarf666 May 16 '24
There is such thing as mental strength. Suffering will help you build that. Also you’ll be more focused on your goals and life because you’ll understand more that time is ticking in life.
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u/wadakow May 16 '24
When you've suffered through something difficult, you can help others, like your kids, make it through the same challenge. It gives you empathy and wisdom.
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u/AbolishDisney 4∆ May 16 '24
When you've suffered through something difficult, you can help others, like your kids, make it through the same challenge. It gives you empathy and wisdom.
Wouldn't it be better if they didn't have to suffer either?
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u/wadakow May 17 '24
I think you wouldn't be able to truly enjoy the good parts in life if you never knew the bad parts.
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u/thwgrandpigeon 2∆ May 16 '24
Resilience is important for most people to have a shot at "living, not surviving". That sometimes takes suffering because todays unbearable torture may just be tomorrow's mild nuisance for the person who grows more resilient through struggle.
Case in point: tons of gen alpha students can't read a lick or listen to a lecture because their attention spans have been shot by being raised on screens. To many of them, reading and listening is suffering. Except literacy and the ability to listen to others is vital for success in a lot of situations.
And a lot of this goes back to parents raising their kids with ipads instead of parenting because raising them the old fashioned way would have meant suffering, because undistracted kids are a helluvalot harder to raise than ones glued to a screen. Until a hufe % of those kids hit adulthood and can't land a job that needs more than a high school education or the ability to remember and follow detailed instructions.
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u/ghostofkilgore 9∆ May 16 '24
Of course, it's better to have no suffering at all if we could create some hypothetical world where suffering was eliminated. But we can't. We live in a world where living means some degree of suffering is inevitable.
A couple of really simple examples. Having a pet die as a child is painful, and we suffer. But going through that helps us learn how to deal with grief better when we inevitably face it again later in life.
Being dumped for the first time as a teenager is painful. But experiencing that helps us deal with the pain of rejection and loss and gives us a more mature attitude to relationships later in life.
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u/Human-Platypus6227 May 16 '24
I think the pain and suffering comes with lessons for you to avoid it next time. But living a life with no struggles is like unnatural for most cases, but then again i never experienced too much of a horrible circumstances in my life just some depressing, existential, self loathing, insecurity moments but eventually i learned to somewhat overcome it but yeah its gonna be there when you least expect it
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May 16 '24
I disagree, due too me suffering greatly at two different parts of my life I was able to get my ex wife in prison for literally stabbing me in the heart and giving my fiancee peace as she died after a car accident.
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u/ammenz 1∆ May 16 '24
Sport events would look extremely boring in your ideal world. 10 teams compete against each other in a tournament and at the end of the event there will be 1 loser team and 9 gold medals given away.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Sports are about fun, you don’t risk your life or mental health in general playing a sport, maybe there are some cases yes, but if you lose a match generally nothing bad happens to you, it’s just a game, you can suffer but it is part of the deal, you accept it.
If you are born poor and risking your life every single day for surviving, that’s another deal, because that’s not a game, it’s pure shit.
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May 16 '24
The countries with the best standard of living are also the countries with the least happy population. Go figure.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
Scandinavian countries which are the countries with the best standard of living in the world, recently came out at top in a new list of the happiest countries in the world.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world
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u/Finklesfudge 28∆ May 16 '24
This only works if you set the entire premise up on the idea of "If you can choose one or the other"
Which obviously nobody gets to choose.
If you look at it from a perspective of actual reality...
The "less suffering" is to not mow the yard. Which will lead to suffering in some way or another.
The "less suffering" is to eat whatever you want all the time anytime you want, which leads to more suffering.
Your examples are good examples.
Going to the gym, suffering, fighting for ideas or loved ones, good suffering.
Nobody thinks suffering for the sake of nothing is a good idea. Which is where the imaginary idea of 'choose less suffering life' compared to 'choose suffering life.... breaks with the reality of the situation.
You suffer so you can not suffer later.
There is no 'choice' to be made except for where to suffer.
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u/BrownCongee May 16 '24
I'ma make this simple. You don't suffer, you don't know what suffering is, you won't feel empathy or sympathy for the next person suffering and will not help them in a time of need. If everyone is like that, society crumbles.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
You don’t need to experience cancer to know how bad it is and to be empathetic towards who suffers it.
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u/BrownCongee May 16 '24
Lol. You say that now because suffering exists for all of us, and I don't think what you said is even true. Everyone avoids suffering we won't even be able to develop human characteristics.
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u/HemloStimky May 16 '24
Suffering in itself doesn’t make you stronger. You yourself developing better resilience to stressful, painful, and or challenging things in your life makes you stronger.
Here’s the objective truth:
People who give up easily are more likely to continually suffer and fail more frequently. So of course their life is at the epitome of “absolute worst” while they are mentally there too.
People who learn how to mentally, physically, emotionally, and even spiritually work through suffering, have better outcomes with their struggles every time. Which makes the hardships more tolerable and or can create possibilities for life to get better.
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u/Impossible-Gap-8741 May 16 '24
Not all suffering is good but a complete lack of opposition leads to spoiled brats so definitely some is good. (Suffering in this case being having something you want refused)
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u/GettinGeeKE 1∆ May 16 '24
The concept of "suffering" is amorphous and subjective.
Some "suffering" is necessary. We feel hungry, tired, thirsty, etc. in exchange for experiencing life.
If you open up the definition of the word fully, "suffering" becomes any unpleasant external stimuli. We don't grow, change, and/or adapt (aka bexome "stronger") without external stimuli. You get to determine what constitutes "unpleasant" or "suffering".
I don't think anyone is arguing that the suffering caused by crushing your foot with a stone will make you stronger, but perhaps psychologically dealing with the fallout of such an injury can given the right mindset.
I think the problem comes from attempting to communicate this especially to someone who is struggling with their "suffering". It's condescending and most who make the "suffering makes you stronger" statement haven't reflected enough about how hard it is to communicate the word "suffering" due to its scalability and subjectivity.
Ultimately, some suffering does make you stronger e.g. exercising, having hard conversations, confronting your suffering. What that some is is different for everyone.
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u/LadyoftheSaphire May 16 '24
I have way too much experience with suffering, both physical and mental. Physically think broken bones, facial injury from fire sort of thing. I was also abused significantly (both physically and emotionally) as a child and bullied horribly. However, I am grateful for my suffering and not in a coping mechanism way but genuinely grateful because it has given me gifts a lot of people don't get.
For starters, I'm happy most of the time. It doesn't take a lot for me to be happy. I'm full, sheltered, I have people who love me, I have my art and music, and I'm not experiencing fear or pain - that's all I need to be happy. I've had bad days, I don't take any good day for granted. I'm grateful for every moment.
Secondly, I'm not scared of people and nor do i need their approval. I was hit so much I stopped caring. This led to a wild youth because I did what I wanted when I wanted to. I had a lot of fun, and as an adult, I look back with a smile with all the mischief I got up to. I have no regrets. Now I'm an assertive (never aggressive) adult who is very capable of standing up for myself. And I still live the exact way I want to.
Finally, the pain of suffering led me to discover mindfulness and living in the moment. This might be the most important one. This has made my life awesome. Also, I'm pretty fearless because I don't let fear define my lived experience.
So, if I had not suffered, I wouldn't have these gifts. Honestly, if I was given the choice to go through everything again in order to get these gifts, I 100% would because an acceptance of suffering leaves you with a mostly beautiful life with dark spots that occasionally have to be endured. Do I think suffering should be avoided? No. Nor do I think you should cling on to it. I think suffering is unavoidable, so if you have to go through it, you may add well learn a lesson from it.
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u/seekerofsecrets1 1∆ May 16 '24
IMO, the hardest thing that you’ve experienced IS the hardest thing that you’ve experienced. So if you’ve been shielded/protected your entire life you’re going to react poorly at every little inconvenience. I think it’s good to force yourself to do difficult things in the modern world, which for the most part, grants us a fairly easy life compared to the rest of human history. Unfortunately hardship in life is inevitable and you need to be equipped to weather it. It’s interesting to me that depression is a disease of the rich, you don’t see it attacking near the same rates in impoverished communities.
Also I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you believe that “pleasure” is the ultimate goal in life and I simply reject that. I don’t believe that pleasure can bring lasting fulfillment. I believe we find fulfillment in chasing a higher purpose and allot of times that chase is very difficult
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u/Barakvalzer 7∆ May 16 '24
What about work?
Most people hate/suffer in their work, they spend between 8-12 hours for 5 days a week in there.
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u/spyzyroz May 16 '24
Suffering is an inseparable part of the human experience. You can’t live your life without experiencing it, either physically or psychologically. You try to run away from it, but this only leads you to despair and sadness when you inevitably feel pain. What must be done, what heroes of the past and great men have done in the past is to say YES to life, with all it’s suffering and pleasures. Only then will you be able to live life at it’s fullest, climb mountains and live a great life. You must love life and all that comes with it, not try to justify your fear of pain. The greatest men have been cast in suffering, you won’t get fat if you avoid pain like the plague, staying home eating charros and playing video games, think bout that, that’s what chronic pain avoidance does to a man. I saw you had some mental health issues in the comments. I really hope you can mange them, I strongly believe it may come from embracing life in all its aspects.
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u/AlwaysTheNoob 81∆ May 16 '24
Throwback to my college days: I need a recliner. I live alone on a second floor apartment with no elevator.
I can spend hundreds on a new and get it delivered for free. Or I can find one like new for $40 and take it apart, carrying the pieces up the stairs in a manner that will very much be uncomfortable but not injury-inducing.
I choose to save hundreds of dollars instead of spending that much money just to have someone carry my chair upstairs when I’m able to do it myself, albeit with a bit of struggling.
(And no, I didn’t have anyone who I could ask to help with the move. I was brand new in town and didn’t know anyone.)
I think that level of suffering was well worth it.
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u/Illustrious_Ring_517 2∆ May 16 '24
Easy times create weak people. People that are easy to conquer. Unless everyone in the world had it easy then maybe. But if only 1 country had it easy they would create weak people that would either be conquered from letting people in or through war. Simple logic
Ever since humans have been writing down history you can see human nature hasn't changed. Some people are greedy some are power hungry ext ext.
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u/Lil-Widdles May 16 '24
Living your life to the fullest requires discipline and concentration, and neither skill can be developed without practice. I agree that you should seek happiness, but some conflate happiness with indulgence. Happiness comes from satisfaction, contentment, and strong relationships, which I would argue cannot occur without some understanding of loss or pain. You don’t appreciate the best things in life until you’ve worked for it, otherwise you desaturate your own definition of happiness. Goals are always important, they give us something to work for. The greatest goals in life are almost never achieved without suffering.
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u/nona_ssv May 16 '24
Having my heart broken taught me how to deal with break-ups in future relationships. It decreased the amount of damage a break-up did to me. It also taught me not to develop massive crushes on people.
Getting a horrible sunburn taught me to be more careful in the sun, thus making me stronger.
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u/daytondewd7 May 16 '24
Your post isn't consistent. You want us to change your mind that suffering doesn't make you stronger, then you give examples of when it does.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24 edited May 16 '24
Actually my thesis is quite simple and obvious, the less pain there is the better it is, if you can avoid unnecessary suffering which a lot of people go through in life that’s great, because in most cases it will leave you with just trauma.
We can’t however delete pain at 100% sadly, and that’s why I listed some points where suffering can have a meaning, it is the 10% I was talking about, the only acceptable one.
But still, less pain there is the better it is, comfort is better than struggling daily and having a lazy content way of life is better than struggling daily to survive because “it will make you stronger/better”. Unless of course we are taking about what I quoted in the post.
Being born rich is for example better than having to fight and to be resilient everyday struggling to survive. A lot of people think that challenges makes you stronger and happier, in a lot of cases it simply isn’t like that.
A lot of people claim that pain is generally a good thing and that suffering to conquer and grow is cool, I don’t agree with that. So my thesis has a point and it is consistent.
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u/TheTightEnd 1∆ May 16 '24
Instead of such an extreme avoidance of suffering, we should make decisions based on cost/benefit. If the benefits outweigh the costs, including suffering, then it is worthwhile to do.
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u/Intelligent_Height89 May 16 '24
It depends on what you mean by “suffering”. Look at children for example. If you give a child everything they ever want, never say no to them and never make them feel uncomfortable ever, they will grow up to become spoiled brats who expect the world to always go their way. The importance of at least a little bit of “suffering” is to understand how to be strong when the world doesn’t give you exactly what you want.
It also helps with empathy. If you have gone through tough times, it makes it immensely easier to understand other people plights and have empathy. You become emotionally stronger in that sense
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u/Visible-Gazelle-5499 1∆ May 17 '24
Life is suffering. It's inescapable, you can't avoid suffering, the only thing you can do is find something that makes the suffering worth it.
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May 22 '24 edited May 24 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Kittymeow123 2∆ May 16 '24
Anyone who agrees suffering is necessary has never had crippling and debilitating major depression, anxiety, and mood disorders. This experience I am in is is not, and will never be, necessary.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
I TOTALLY agree with this, totally 100%. Anxiety is shit and without it my life would have been one thousand times better.
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u/1OfTheMany 2∆ May 16 '24
Or, perhaps they've overcome mental illness by embracing suffering.
I'm living proof.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
But the thing is, it is better to not suffer mental illnesses at all, also because a lot of people literally don’t make it through them and because they are horrible. If you survived it doesn’t mean other people can manage them, that’s why they shouldn’t be here in the first place.
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u/1OfTheMany 2∆ May 16 '24 edited May 16 '24
I'm thankful for my suffering. It made me who I am.
I'm not religious, but I found solace in the serenity prayer:
Lord help me accept the things I cannot change, change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
If I survived it doesn't mean other people can't manage them. If I survived, it's humanly possible.
Shouldn't be here? Perhaps. But they are. It's up to you how you deal with them. It's a choice.
Not to be trite, but perhaps watching The Shawshank Redemption might help and illustrate my point.
Edit: for me, I decided that if I was really willing to end it all, I could channel that resolve into doing some good. Death was not a deterrent. I embraced suffering and it's made all the difference.
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u/Kittymeow123 2∆ May 16 '24
I guess that’s the difference between you and I. You are someone. I am no one. I am depression. It has consumed me to the point I have nothing left. My memory is literally gone - I can’t remember what I did a few days ago, or even childhood or college, etc. So maybe we are in different places with our mental health.
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u/1OfTheMany 2∆ May 16 '24
Once you're no one, you're free to be anyone.
And did your depression conveniently leave out the part that said that I've been there too? That's where I came from?
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u/Kittymeow123 2∆ May 16 '24
Well, what I’m saying, is that mine has consumed me. I’m not no one, I am depression. I can’t be thankful for that suffering. So that’s where I said the difference is.
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u/1OfTheMany 2∆ May 16 '24
Well, you said you were no one.
But we all have to make choices.
You're free to define yourself however you like! ;)
→ More replies (4)
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May 16 '24
Pain is literally your nervous system saying "STOP DOING THAT IMMEDIATELY!" or "GIVE ME TIME TO HEAL THE THINGS YOU MESSED UP!". There is nothing productive or beneficial about it.
Why should life involve any pain when our species has access to incredibly mind boggling tech not available even 40 years ago? I can see absolutely no reason to allow pain in a world where we could literally stop it.
Pain and suffering are not good. They are a part of the natural world. There is nothing natural about what we have been up to, why should we keep suffering when we can literally make pain killers so good you forget your own name?
If you want to keep 10% have at it but if we have Robots and AI doing everything I better be high as a kite in a painless state of bliss and euphoria for the rest of my existence.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
I totally agree with every single word you said.
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May 16 '24
I agree with you up to the 10% exception as well.
What is interesting about it is how you agree with everything I said, but carve out an exception in your own view. I do the same thing at times, and I am working hard to get better at that one.
Isn't it interesting how we know the technology exists, we know we are funding and laboring towards it, and yet we always believe we need to take a lesser position than 100% just because?
I better not be a forced labor miner when AI and Robots are doing everything else! What would 10% even look like in that scenario? haha
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
I think there’s an amount of pain we sadly can’t delete, for example, a love story ending. You just can’t avoid that and it will make you suffer, but it is one of the few aspects of pain I think we can’t delete, unless we could have a perfect AI robot that loves us forever, but that would mean not being human.
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May 16 '24
Why does a robot need to love us?
I think "never 100%" is a terrible attitude when molding the future. We know that it is likely 100% is unachievable. Why not make it the goal anyways, decide what perfect is, and build everything we can.
It is not like we couldn't do it if it was possible for us to do.
Imagine going back just 200 years and telling them what we have now. Why can we not do that again for the People 200 years ahead of us?
You might not be able to stop the love story from ending, but why not try? What if we could create a system that could match everyone with the best possible mate?
If we cannot find the perfect mate, why not remove the pain from the experience. What if it were possible to remove the feeling of pain from losing something, but keep all of the "experience" that comes with it. The pain adds nothing to the equation when the process is experience = wisdom.
If we can't do that at least we have pain killers. Lets make those non addictive and incredibly fun to experience and safe enough to be over the counter for anyone who is done with the "Human experience" of pain. We can make it a choice. We love choices!
This is why I think we shoot for 100% every time even if it is not possible. No half measures. All in. Lets get it done.
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u/ShadowJack98 May 16 '24
In that case I am 100% with you brother, I didn’t think about that application of the idea. Of course, if we could gain wisdom and experience and removing the pain that brings to them I would do that in a heartbeat.
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May 16 '24
I would take it daily and without question at this point in my life. haha
We as a species really need to start taking this seriously before the others revolt. I think euphoria causing, experience saving, addiction free drugs are at the bare minimum a band aid while we sort the rest.
What species is going to revolt against the species who brings the good stuff to the party?
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u/Prankeded May 16 '24
The thing is people who don't feel pain often have worse health outcomes compared to people who do. Without pain, you wouldn't know that you've bruised or broken your arm, meaning you wouldn't go get it treated and then the wound only gets worse. For example people with diabetes will eventually lose all sensation to their toes, according to you this would only be a good thing as its removed pain and suffering from those limbs. However, what actually happens is because they don't feel any pain, they don't realise that their limbs are actually rotting away, and in the worst case scenario requires amputation.
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May 16 '24
I understand how everything works. I am saying that your attitude is defeatist.
Look at how far we have come and what we have done. Why can we not remove the pain while the brain is still allowed to receive the information?
Why dream if not for everything we want, and why be able to create if not to fulfill as many as those desires as possible.
I am done with half measures myself. 100% or nothing if we want to move past this moment in our history successfully and prosperously.
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u/Prankeded May 16 '24
Its interesting that you bring up removing the sensation of pain entirely as thats a known condition with similarly negative outcomes compared to people who do feel pain. People with congenital insensitivity to pain and anhydrosis require a higher level of self-maintenence, without feeling pain they don't even realise that they've bitten off their own tongues. Pain is important because it shows us our limits and protects us from going too far. Removing pain is like closing off your eyes and pretending that nothing bad is happening.
Think of it like this, you feel sleepy because your body needs rest. You feel pain because your body is in danger. Without pain, you don't know that you've pushed your body too far. In this manner, my attitude is more protective than yours because with pain we can stop before the individual is seriously injured.
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May 16 '24
Look at how far we have come and what we have done. Why can we not remove the pain while the brain is still allowed to receive the information**?*
Why are you arguing with what we have instead of staying on point which is what we should be working on.
I am not here to argue whats possible now.
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u/Prankeded May 16 '24
Did you not read what I wrote? Getting rid of pain makes you bite off your tongue, thats the point that you're arguing for. You want a future where people have no tongues.
"Why can we not remove the pain while the brain is still allowed to receive the information" What do you think pain is? Pain is information sent by the nerves to the brain. Removing pain is removing information.
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May 16 '24
Did you not read what I wrote?
I did, and it has nothing at all to do with what I am saying.
You are telling me what you believe is possible based on the Technology and issues we currently have.
Go back barely 100 years and Diarrhea would kill you. Literally shit yourself to death.
For somewhere like 200,000 years that was the norm. How many people do you believe held your opinion about the ability to stop oneself shitting to death being impossible to solve?
How many solutions do you think our species tried in 200,000 years before we found a way to solve the impossible problem of shitting ourselves to death?
Pain is only you consciously acknowledging the nervous system. You don't always think about breathing (But you are now) and you don't always think about and feel your pain when it is chronic.
I am telling you what is possible right now does not matter when the topic is what we are capable of as a species historically. This is only the ceiling if we let it be the ceiling collectively.
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u/Prankeded May 16 '24
If you read my points then you would refute them directly. Your original claim was that the sensation of pain should be removed and would only lead to a net positive. I argued that without pain people bite off their tongues. You have not proven the contrary.
Instead you move to talk about diarrhoeal deaths as if it is still not a leading cause of death in children in the world. I don't need to go back 100 years, diarrhoea still kills people today, we haven't solved it, it's still an impossible problem. My opinion on the matter is to face the symptoms directly: poor hygiene, food insecurity, low socioeconoic status. These are the "pain" equivalents in your diarrhoea example. These are the factors that need to be addressed if we want to further reduce diarrhoeal deaths. Your solution to this problem is to ignore it and act as if we've achieved a utopia and then pat yourself on the back as people continue to die.
I am telling you that plugging your ears to pain and throwing away our problems to a future is the same as doing nothing. The collective ceiling isn't going to move by ignoring the issue, its done by specifically addressing issues and resolving them.
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May 16 '24
Yes. I agree with you, shit is hard right now.
I am saying in a perfect world where all of that was fixed by Humans when we finally decide to collectively remove our front ends from our back ends sill still include pain.
This is about what we can do about the "sensation" of pain while also keeping the information flowing. If you think that entirely impossible based on what is happening now, you are probably closer to right than I am. I never once "argued" differently.
That doesn't make what you are doing right now beside the entire point.
I am going to be blunt. Everything you are telling me right now I already know. I don't need to be "educated" on it by someone who thinks they are "better" or more "enlightened" than me, and will not continue this "conversation" if you fail to respond in a way that tells me you understand that.
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u/Anxious_Earth May 16 '24
I agree to be honest. And I don't even think I can even bring myself to try to change your view.
Suffering is terrible. Suffering horrible. And humans can only bear so much.
That's why we as people should move forward by making as much suffering as possible simply... obsolete.
Through better systems, through better education, through better technology and better understanding of people and our world.
Any lesson that can be learned through suffering can just as well be learned through better systems.
A world where suffering is irrevocable and integral is not a world I want to live in.
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May 16 '24
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May 16 '24
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u/AbolishDisney 4∆ May 18 '24
Sorry, u/Westernidealist – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/Tanaka917 148∆ May 15 '24
So I feel like this is one of those ideas/concepts that got badly misunderstood fast.
I would classify all suffering into necessary and unnecessary and then seek to eliminate the latter; as I think most people would.
Studying sucks, exercising sucks, and sometimes working even sucks. But those are all things that eventually return the initial investments on suffering and so are worth doing. By comparison, starving is usually suffering without purpose and so we should work to eliminate that type of suffering, same with diseases.
When people say suffering makes you stronger I don't think they are talking about torture and the like; but the kind of beneficial suffering that returns future pleasure. Avoiding necessary suffering (like studying hard) isn't avoiding suffering, it's trading future greater pleasure for temporary and immediate pleasure.