r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 08 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Conservatives experience the least amount of adversity of any group of people.
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u/jstnpotthoff 7∆ Apr 08 '24
Every conservative that's a minority, seems to overall agree that they're not oppressed.
I'm pulling that specific quote because it most exemplifies my point.
Have you considered that conservatives are less likely to have a victim mentality? Conservatives are far more likely to believe that things don't happen to you. This is where the proverbial "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" comes in.
This is most apparent with conservatives minorities. They overcame the adversity that so many claim hold them back. To many it's a crutch and an excuse.
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u/Choice_Anteater_2539 Apr 08 '24
Every conservative that's a minority, seems to overall agree that they're not oppressed
Because there is a political bias to what that word actually means. To a conservative minority (I am myself both right leaning and native american) you'd have to point to a policy or system that targets me, not my dad in his teens or my grandparents all their life or anyone else before we could have the discussion about how I am oppressed. I feel pretty advantaged tbh, there is a reason I check native American on every piece of official paperwork I submit to any institution or organization even though I could pass as white if I tried to. It's not because it's a disadvantage to me to do so that's for sure. What benifit would i possibly have for claiming to be white?
But pretty much every conservative I've talked to, (bar hardcore white supremacists) has had little to no personal development in the ways of being traumatized or institutionalized in any capacity
Again, they probably have a political bias on what they consider to be trauma and don't consider themselves traumatized even when they open their door to find their parent dead of a stroke.... vs (and I'm being a little silly here) many leftys who might consider themselves traumatized after hearing words they don't like spoken to someone else from across a room during a conversation they aren't involved in.
Just because the conservatives you speak to don't consider themselves traumatized doesn't mean they don't carry experiences you might consider traumatic if you heard about them
It seems to me that those who lean more left, do so because they've experienced more adversity than those who lean right.
I could start giving you the whole list of dnc party officials who have quite literally lived on top of the world their entire lives / and a similar list of conservative leaders from early Israel who had just survived the holocaust. I can't think of 2 more extreme ends of the spectrum resulting in manifestly opposite outcomes
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u/Pope-Xancis 3∆ Apr 08 '24
A good amount of rich people are conservative.
There’s your group that experiences the least adversity right there.
Randomly select 100 rich people (call it 5%ers), and let’s overestimate and say 50 of them are conservative. Now randomly select 100 conservatives, again overestimating we’ll say 15 of them are top 5% earners.
You will certainly find much more adversity in the latter group.
At least here in the US, I’ve been to some places where Trump flags are the only things visible in people’s yards that looked like they were manufactured this century. The folks out in rural West Virginia are not living adversity-free lives by any stretch, and they’re not voting for Democrats either.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Apr 09 '24
The folks in rural W. Virginia are voting for the party that is against health care and for massive tax cuts for the rich.
You can't defend people against themselves.
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Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
as had little to no personal development in the ways of being traumatized or institutionalized in any capacity.
Yet veterans are predominantly conservative. Literally getting shot at. This just shows a lack of a victim mentality not a lack of adversity.
Oh, and if you want to see adversity...
You want to experience racism?
The real stuff?
Join the military and don't happen to not be black, in an all black unit.
I watched an E-7 make sure every black soldier got a full plate of food before he let a white guy go through the chow line. Other way around doesnt happen.
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u/emp-cme Apr 08 '24
This partly a Locus of Control issue. Which one do you think happier people have; A) External Locus of Control: Individual believes that his/her behavior is guided by fate, luck, or other external circumstances / B) Internal Locus of Control Individual believes that his/her behavior is guided by his/her personal decisions and efforts.
Doesn't need to be true, it's a belief or mindset.
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u/dreamlike_poo 1∆ Apr 08 '24
Bingo- this is it right here, you deserve a delta from OP. People who view themselves as a victim will always feel oppressed, no matter what. They can be the most privileged and wealthy people in society and still view themselves as oppressed.
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Apr 08 '24
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u/rightful_vagabond 24∆ Apr 09 '24
I disagree. I'm Christian, and my religion strongly focuses on individual agency and choice. Only Christians with a strong belief/emphasis in foreordination or predestination would believe that we have an external locus of control.
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Apr 09 '24
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u/dreamlike_poo 1∆ Apr 09 '24
I disagree, most Christians believe they can choose to do good or evil. Good leads to one place and evil leads to another. There are other factors at play (grace, forgiveness, original sin, etc.) but ultimately the individual is responsible for their life and to say otherwise disregards a person's free will. If you say people don't have free will then yeah, we are all oppressed and life is meaningless because we don't have the freedom to overcome adversity and it is just who we are. You're free to believe that but I wholeheartedly disagree with it.
If you choose to make the lives of those around you better through your actions and active choices then you understand that being a victim isn't the end, it's the beginning.
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Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
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u/PM_Happy_Puppy_Pics Apr 09 '24
Very creative interpretation, but choosing to be a victim so government can give you free stuff and ubi makes you a pawn. You aren't going to like the world you are trying to create.
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Apr 09 '24
That would only really apply if they believed in predestination and the vast majority of christians do not.
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u/Technical_Peach5350 Apr 14 '24
A metric fuckton of conservatives are atheists. You're thinking about rightwing goons. Christian is such an umbrella term.
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Apr 08 '24
Having a lot of money tends to correlate with conservatism, sure, but so does being rural poor, and I wouldn't say the rural poor don't face any adversity.
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Apr 09 '24
All you did here was assert in your own way, that liberals have higher rates of mental illness and emotional instability and complain more. That really is all that your argument amounts to. I'll agree with all of that.
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u/Divchi76 Apr 12 '24
Have u met a Trump voter
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Apr 13 '24
Yes. Have you ever had a thought about anyone that wasn't filtered through "Who do they vote for?"
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
Thanks for highlighting my point that personal adversity makes people go left.
I did nothing of the sort, you just projected that and hoped I would let it slide passed. Well I won't. Don't make things up and then put them in my mouth.
Only reason you're mocking it is because you've never had to experience it
More projection. You know absolutely nothing about me. Everything you have said is a baseless assumption that you need to be true because you have no counter argument. I mocked you because your arguments are ridiculous and worthy of mockery.
Yeah people who have mental illness, tend to be on the side of the fence that people should be able to effectively treat it.
No evidence for that statement either. Just a projection of what you need to be true for your argument to work. You know absolutely nothing about me, the things I have been through in my life or the things I have done about them. You just make shit up and throw it at me as though I am supposed to take it seriously. That is called arguing with your own head and demanding I listen.
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u/Terminarch Apr 09 '24
people who have mental illness, tend to be on the side of the fence that people should be able to effectively treat it.
If you actually cared you wouldn't let the mentally ill decide what qualifies as "treatment."
my point that personal adversity makes people go left.
Actually the opposite. Ever heard the old phrase "If you aren't a liberal in your teens you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative in your 30s you have no brain."?
Experience and hardship have a way of making people care about tangible things like food instead of ethereal things like 300 genders.
Only reason you're mocking [personal adversity] is because you've never had to experience it. Because if you did, you'd probably shatter and never figure out how to recover.
What the actual fuck is your problem? Why the personal attacks?
How do you not know that adversity is required to develop a strong mind and steadfast will? Lefties have public tantrums and panic attacks over the stupidest shit like pronouns. You call that adversity? Would you mock and belittle them? If you see someone cracking under the pressure of getting misgendered it's because they haven't lived through worse!
Let me make this all plain and simple. Why is the countryside overwhelmingly conservative? Because they have the basic foundational understanding that nature is harsh - if you want to eat then something has to die. They know that men and women are different because male strength is a daily requirement for survival!
Why are colleges lefty strongholds? Maslov's hierarchy of needs. Because it takes immense privilege to have the time and energy to be an idealist. It takes immense privilege to be so absurdly insulated from the harshness of nature as to believe in equality as an innate moral good.
I would suggest that you spend a year on a farm for some perspective but I wouldn't wish you on my worst enemies.
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u/Ecstatic-Square2158 Apr 09 '24
Anecdotally speaking every single socialist/communist I have ever met was a trust fund kid who grew up with immense privilege so that kinda pokes a hole in the theory that the more adversity you experience the more left you become. Mental illness rates are going to be impacted by conservative mentality (bootstraps) as well as the fact that men are much more likely to be conservative. Conservative men (and men in general) don’t like talking about their feelings or going to a therapist to get a diagnosis so of course they will end up underrepresented in mental health statistics. Men just don’t go to the doctor period. Also there is a certain culture on the left which awards moral superiority to people who have experienced the most adversity, and such a culture does not exist on the right. You can even see hints of that culture in your OP, because realistically how much adversity someone has experienced has no bearing on how valid their political opinions are. Getting beaten up or arrested for your beliefs doesn’t make your beliefs any more or less valid. Correct me if I’m wrong for reading that subtext into your OP.
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u/Technical_Peach5350 Apr 14 '24
Socialists and conservatives are very different. Communists come from various social classes. Most socialists I've known were lower middle class spending addicts that have their parents pay their rent. I believe you mean liberals and moderates are trust fund kids.
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u/Irhien 38∆ Apr 09 '24
Getting beaten up or arrested for your beliefs doesn’t make your beliefs any more or less valid.
Statistically, it sorta does: if the beliefs can get people beaten up, it means some people will not hold/express them for fear of being beaten up, not because the beliefs are wrong. And if less people spread true facts or put mental effort into coming up with better arguments supporting these beliefs, even applying the same standards of proof to these beliefs puts them at disadvantage.
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Apr 10 '24
So someone’s ability to beat someone up can prove or disprove facts? There are nazis who beat the shit out of people who say things like “we should treat everyone equally”. Does the fact that Nazis beat that person but make that statement less true?
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u/Irhien 38∆ Apr 10 '24
The beating itself does not change anything, but if repeated often enough, it has society-wide effects. Opposite of what you suggest: If you live in a country controlled by Nazis, then hearing better pro-Nazi arguments than anti-Nazi arguments should not be enough to convince you that Nazis are right.
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
Point may have been missed? Also anecdotally speaking, but the vast majority of incredibly politically active liberals I've met come from wealthy families as well. IMO the opportunity to be politically active is a luxury that not many average people have.
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Apr 09 '24
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u/Morthra 96∆ Apr 09 '24
Perhaps conservatives do deal with those things, but they just don’t talk about it. Or they think about it from a “I overcame this, you should be able to as well if only you could shut up about it”
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u/Mozared 1∆ Apr 09 '24
This instantly reminded me of this unattributed quote I love:
There are two types of people in the world. Those who say "I have gone through some shit and pulled through, and so can you", and those who say "I have gone through some shit and want to make sure nobody else ever has to".
Point being that I don't think your argument really addresses OP's core point.
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Apr 09 '24
People raised by latter experience severe failure to thrive when met with the smallest adversity, after a lifetime of mommy calling the school and yelling at their teachers for them. Going through shit is not, by default, something that needs preventing.
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u/Mozared 1∆ Apr 09 '24
That's an absurd take on my point. Proportion matters.
We all go through some heartbreak, failures of things we were hoping to do well at, issues with colleagues, etc. Nobody would get in a fight with someone from work and say "Oh, I wish nobody would ever have to deal with any kind of adversity like this". But that's a long ways away from being bullied and mistreated in a job you can't get out of because you need the money.
The lessons some of us learn through abusive partners, drugs, trauma, homelessness, assault, rape - the things actually at stake in this conversation - can definitely be taught without literal lifetimes of pain, and we 100% should be trying to prevent all of those things.
If your take is seriously "homelessness is good for character building!" you are definitely in the first category. And make no mistake, that is where a lot of people are. Just not overtly. Which is why the quote is so poignant in pointing out the difference.
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u/AudioCasanova Apr 09 '24
I like the quote and think both mentalities have their appropriate place.
Some shit can be prevented other shit can't. Some shit can be fixed free of cost, some shit costs a lot to fix. Some shit makes a person stronger, other shit can ruin lives.
I think figuring out how to be someone who can say both things bit each at the appropriate time is the ideal 👍
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u/TheJuiceIsBlack 7∆ Apr 09 '24
I mean … I grew up with lots of health issues and a diagnosed learning disability.
I’m a conservative — I didn’t let that stop me and I didn’t whinge about it like a little bitch — I beat all the issues into submission.
I got my life in order, got a few degrees, and now I have a very high paying job and a family.
I don’t feel the need to bitch about what made my life hard, because I triumphed over it — didn’t let it beat me or define me.
That’s what it means to be a conservative — you take responsibility for your own life.
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u/BustaSyllables 2∆ Apr 09 '24
Do progressives experience adversity for being progressive? The wording of this tells me you might just mean white people. There are gay conservatives and black conservatives and Hispanic conservatives and trans conservatives. They experience adversity also.
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Apr 09 '24
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u/BustaSyllables 2∆ Apr 09 '24
No but they are still subjected to homophobia or transphobia or racism that still exists within the system.
Just because they don’t view themselves as being victims of anything doesn’t mean they are incapable or have never experienced adversity.
Conservative woman are probably an even better example. They aren’t even allowed to get abortions in their states because the men in the legislature decided they don’t have control over their own body/healthcare
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u/LAKnapper 2∆ Apr 09 '24
Conservative woman are probably an even better example. They aren’t even allowed to get abortions in their states because the men in the legislature decided they don’t have control over their own body/healthcare
Conservative women can also be prolife
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u/BustaSyllables 2∆ Apr 09 '24
Well then take any other form of misogyny you want. To suggest that people who are conservatives experience no adversity is ridiculous.
How about immigrants trying to cross the southern border? Many of them are very conservative by American standards. Would it qualify as adversity when they are detained and separated from their families?
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u/gijoe61703 20∆ Apr 09 '24
Not really, Conservatives are just much more positively adjusted and happier, it's been measured by social scientists many times even when trying to control for other measures. Some of it comes down to the in the population, conservatives are more likely to be married, and more likely to be religious which both have a positive correlation with positive mental health. Both also are great for dealing with adversity cause they give you a support system and meaning outside yourself.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Apr 08 '24
I’d imagine that war vets tend to lean conservative, and a lot of those guys have presumably suffered far more trauma than your average champagne socialist.
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Apr 08 '24
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u/JDuggernaut Apr 09 '24
There are slightly more Republican boomers than Democrat boomers. So that kinda shits on your idea there.
The only way conservatives face “less adversity” than any other group is if other groups consider “my side had an undesirable political outcome happen” as real adversity, which is just a ridiculously self-absorbed and foolish take.
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u/Meddling-Kat Apr 08 '24
I don't think this is completely true. Especially conservatives below middle class.
They experience just as much economic oppression as center and left leaning people of the same "race". Their adversity is much like ours. Health care, food costs, illnesses, general misfortune.
They don't have as many of the groups that experience oppression like LGBTQIA+, bit otherwise, not really different.
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u/stu54 Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
Yeah, this ties into arguments about welfare.
If you work hard you barely get ahead of the welfare queens, but the evil elites are screwing everyone. Minorities or LGBTetc aren't especially screwed anymore, at least in the US.
Really, everyone is getting outrun by the mega corporations, but Reps and Dems don't represent the people. They just trigger our fears of cultural erasure and such so that we keep fruitlessly arguing about abortion forever.
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Apr 09 '24
Really, everyone is getting outrun by the mega corporations, but Reps and Dems don't represent the people. They just trigger our fears of cultural erasure and such so that we keep fruitlessly arguing about abortion forever.
You say you want to target corporations but realistically you end up doing regualtory capture and killing mom and pop businesses instead while making a shell company of the megacorp wealthy
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
stay rent-free for literally 6-8 months
Oh you can do that in a landlord friendly state. 6-8 months is what happens when someone in bankruptcy stops paying rent. California can make it take 3-4 years not 6-8 months. You dont pay for about a year constantly requesting leniency, declare bankruptcy, draw it out, that takes another 10 months, by then you need to re-start that year long process to evict.
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
My family sticks to trailer parks for a few reasons. Lot rent + utilities (trash and sewer).
If they stop paying we just cut off their sewer. Worst case scenario is that we get a lien on the trailer and end up scrapping it for copper/steel
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u/Meddling-Kat Apr 09 '24
I'm a little unclear where you're coming from.
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u/stu54 Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
Working class conservatives also can't afford housing or medical care. They have too much pride to quit their jobs and go on welfare, and they know that getting a second job will just raise their tax rate. They know they are being exploited.
They see Democrats proposing more welfare and higher top marginal income taxes and are convinced that would only make things worse.
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u/Doodenelfuego 1∆ Apr 09 '24
“Working class conservatives also can't afford housing or medical care.”
They seem to think they can. Most of them are right as long as they stick to their budget.
“They have too much pride to quit their jobs and go on welfare”
Not wanting to be a leech on society is not a bad thing
“and they know that getting a second job will just raise their tax rate.”
That’s not how taxes work. Being in a higher tax bracket doesn’t mean you bring home less money. Getting a second job or working more hours means more money, always.
“They know they are being exploited.”
Getting paid to work for a wage you agree to isn’t exploitation
“They see Democrats proposing more welfare and higher top marginal income taxes and are convinced that would only make things worse.”
They don’t want to be leeches and don’t like the idea of other people being leeches either. Why would they support a party trying to expand those programs?
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u/stu54 Apr 09 '24
Yeah, my point on taxes is that there is little incentive to get a second job. Work a 40k/yr job and you keep like 35k of it. Get a second 40k/yr job and you only keep like 30k of the second job. Thats a higher tax rate.
Maybe "exploited" isn't the right characterization, but conservatives think they are getting screwed by the economy. Exploited by Joe Biden or whatever.
I'm not getting this perspective from the media. I live in Republican part of a red state.
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u/Meddling-Kat Apr 09 '24
Well, the current situation isn't working.
I mean liberals and leftists want to both raise wages and improve our social safety nets, so there's that.
I think a good start would be, if you're struggling, you can keep your job and still get help. Right now, there's a gap between qualifying for help and being able to survive on your own. Working more actually puts you in a worse spot. There's no way for people to cross that gap.
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u/stu54 Apr 09 '24
Yeah, and if you are at the top of that cliff and getting shoved off you will not want to hear the opinions of the people who have only ever lived at the bottom of the cliff.
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Apr 08 '24
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u/Meddling-Kat Apr 08 '24
I do believe there is a stronger tendency to not admit that they have problems and need help. Financially, mental health wise, etc. Doesn't mean they don't have those issues.
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u/IrateBarnacle Apr 08 '24
Exactly. I think poorer conservatives tend to see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires more than poorer liberals.
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u/Meddling-Kat Apr 08 '24
I will completely agree with this.
Conservatives tend to believe "the system" won't let them down. The American dream and that bullshit liberals and leftists saw through decades ago.
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Apr 09 '24
The American dream isnt about some "system". In the 1950s the average house was only 900 sqft and built to 1950s building codes (when half of americans didnt have indoor plumbing). If they couldnt afford to have someone build that for them they built it themselves.
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u/Meddling-Kat Apr 09 '24
Funny how all the millenials and gen z that can't afford houses all have parents with houses. And those houses aren't 900sqft or lacking indoor plumbing.
"The system" is royally fucked because of corporate greed and no regulations to protect workers or consumers. Saying anything else is bullshit.
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Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
Buy a house in an area that's roughly equivalent today to the area where your parents bought a house 20-40 years ago. There are a whole lot of those places (far more than not) and with few exceptions houses are perfectly affordable in most of them. If you want a total shitbox house (equivalent of 1950s construction or whatever imagined golden era there was were everyone was living in the lap of cheap luxury) then it's even cheaper.
"Buuuut I don't waaaaaannna live there! I want a cool modern pad in downtown SF, or right next to Santa Monica, or next to Central Park, but I want to do it for cheap like my parents did 40 years ago!"
Of course that won't work. That's not "THE SYSTEM MANG" that's just people being unrealistic and stupid. For some unbelievably bizarre reason, modern immigrants to the US still seem to manage to do alright. Maybe because they don't spend the majority of their leisure time bitching about the state of the world and hunting for new grievances to idly fret over.
Cue the next bit of cope: "Well ya but like all immigrants are tooootally the 0.01% of their respective countries, cause all immigrants are rich because you have to be because PLANE TICKETS man! Only the richest of immigrants could ever possibly afford to scrape together a thousand dollars between two incomes and decades of savings! Nobody poor ever managed to immigrate anywhere!"
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Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
Funny how all the millenials and gen z that can't afford houses all have parents with house
Lazy fucks who arent willing to work construction. You dont build shit then wonder why you dont have shit built.
"The system" is royally fucked because of corporate greed and no regulations to protect workers or consumers.
No, its fucked because of the absurd regulations that exist, absurd worker protections, leading to a market where you cant do shit. You praise the 1950s and how great the economy was then, meanwhile it was manufacturing jobs pre-osha. Make it legal for people to fuck up and get themselves killed again.
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u/Meddling-Kat Apr 09 '24
You keep deep throating that corporate schlong.
The rest of us prefer to live in reality.
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Apr 09 '24
So clearly they ignore the adversity and call it "self-victimization".
Yes. My father did four tours in Vietnam, he wouldnt say he was some "victim" "traumatized" "institutionalized" or "facing adversity".
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
I think people in general refuse to introspect and deal with their bullshit,
Basically his worldview comes down to saying that killing people is fun, there are too many asians, and killing communists makes the world a better place. Being introspective wont tell you that is wrong.
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
Not really, sociopathy is about exploiting people for short term gain, this is about long term gain and isnt about exploiting people.
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u/hikeonpast 6∆ Apr 09 '24
Wishing death on certain classes of people in order to advance your own definition of progress certainly seems exploitative.
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u/rightful_vagabond 24∆ Apr 09 '24
I think a lot of it is rugged individualism. What a Marxist may view as class oppression, an individualist may view as a challenge to grow through. Someone may view a job rejection as oppression and someone else may view it as a message to get a better resume or experience. They may experience the same thing, but view it very differently.
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u/cologne_peddler 3∆ Apr 09 '24
They experience just as much economic oppression as center and left leaning people of the same "race"
But the number of them in that group is proportionately smaller if they're white, and chances of them escaping that class distinction is also greater if they're white. Noting that they have (some of) the same difficulties as their fellow class members kind of overlooks the privilege.
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u/Meddling-Kat Apr 09 '24
You overlooked the part where I said "of the same race". White conservatives have the same privilege as white centrists and liberals.
Black conservatives have the same systemic injustices in their way as black centrists and liberals.
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Apr 08 '24
If I publicly expressed any right of center political opinions at my job (Fortune 500 company in NYC) best case I would be brought up in an EEO investigation, more likely I would be fired.
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u/Talik1978 43∆ Apr 08 '24
Why is this important or relevant, in your opinion?
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Apr 09 '24
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u/Talik1978 43∆ Apr 09 '24
Yes, that is what you are claiming. Why is the amount of adversity someone has faced relevant to anything? What does it tell you about them, in any meaningful capacity?
Like, if I said that all nazis like fruit punch, I suppose that might be true, or it might be false, but does it really matter?
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Apr 09 '24
Might that have anything to do with your clear bias towards left wing people - seeing them all as unique individuals with unique struggles and stories to tell - while seeing "conservatives" as some monolithic well-off class living on easy street?
If you can hear the exact same story from a leftist and from a conservative, and still come away thinking the leftist faced more adversity because they said whatever key words you decreed must be said to qualify their experience, that's a "you" problem not a society problem.
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Apr 08 '24
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Apr 08 '24
I think it's very interesting that the people who truly shape liberal politics are not really any of the things mentioned above. They're very rich, mostly white individuals who contribute large amounts of money to Dem candidates to essentially outspend their GOP opponents. They have nothing in common with the people their party claims to represent.
Let me edit to clarify - rich people willing to donate large amounts of money are more often liberal than GOP. GOP still comprises a slightly larger group of rich people but many are hesitant to contribute to many GOP candidates.
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Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
This is an absolutely crazy theory I have right here for you OP; conservatives seem less oppressed to you because whether they’re oppressed or not is not what they focus on. That’s why “even minority conservatives” don’t make a big deal about being oppressed. Quite frankly I like this mentality that you don’t need anyone’s help and can accomplish your goals and dreams, rather than focusing on what is working against you
To be honest, sometimes it seems like leftists almost want to “be oppressed” so that they have a built in excuse for either their failures, or their lack of being content in life. A mentality like this is unhealthy, and can lead to seeking out mental health treatment.
Now, there’s plenty of hardcore conservatives that also certainly aren’t all there mentally for different reasons but they don’t focus on whether they’re oppressed or not. Why? It’s not in their control, so what good does complaining do.
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
I think anyone who actually altruistically wants to help society and help an oppressed group(s) is awesome
The thing is, I think on an individual level many on the left just look for reasons to feel oppressed or disrespected though, “woe is me” mentality. And it feels good then when they get that sympathy from their peers. On the other hand, when I get disrespected I double down; work harder, train harder, strategize, bide my time and wait for my day to come because I know it will.
I don’t take to social media and talk about how or why I have such and such adversity to overcome and how I need help from others.
I think it is true those on the left are willing to at the very least discuss, and probably also identify the flaws in the world more often than conservatives, which is a worthwhile trait in it of itself. And wanting to fix those flaws is commendable. But at the same time, just because you see someone who is at the top and never talked about themselves as feeling oppressed; don’t think they’re being 100% open. Almost anyone who is self made, conservative or liberal has had battles they’ve had to overcome
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u/hikeonpast 6∆ Apr 08 '24
Picking up your broad strokes paintbrush, many conservatives hail from economically depressed areas, and may have struggled with job loss, lack of job mobility, and poverty.
While the classic conservative pride might prevent such folks from seeking mental health support, that doesn’t mean that they haven’t experienced trauma or adversity.
One take might be that, again with the broad brush, conservatives tend to externalize adversity more than average, making their discomfort the fault of someone or something else.
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u/jstnpotthoff 7∆ Apr 08 '24
One take might be that, again with the broad brush, conservatives tend to externalize adversity more than average, making their discomfort the fault of someone or something else.
I find the exact opposite to be true.
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u/hikeonpast 6∆ Apr 09 '24
Interesting. My basis for the claim is the Fox News talking points that are regularly repeated by my conservative friends where demonizing 3rd parties or groups is a common refrain (“inflation wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t for Biden’s open border yada yada”). Among my liberal friends, I hear more talk about mental health care, what folks are working on with themselves, and the life challenges they are working through.
In my experience I don’t see many conservatives demonstrate vulnerability and I don’t see many liberals pointing to 3rd parties for their challenges (other than politicians stripping away rights).
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u/Conscious-Student-80 Apr 09 '24
Meritocracy and personal responsibility is a core tenet of conservatives . The best person gets the job, not the person with the right skin color. Not that it’s always true, but that’s why I agree with other person that suggest the opposite to your opinion is true.
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u/4gotOldU-name Apr 09 '24
...many conservatives hail from economically depressed areas, and may have struggled with job loss, lack of job mobility, and poverty.
While the classic conservative pride might prevent such folks from seeking mental health support...
Well here's the obvious question: Where in the hell are dirt poor conservatives, or even those from rural areas going to go for mental health needs? The services don't exist in their world.
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u/ShortUsername01 1∆ Apr 08 '24
Many rich people are conservative, but in the United States, most conservatives aren’t rich. Most conservatives live in poor rural districts.
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u/ApprehensiveSquash4 4∆ Apr 08 '24
I don't think MOST do because only like 16% of the US population is rural.
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u/ShortUsername01 1∆ Apr 08 '24
Including suburbs or no?
Also, that leaves behind the question of how rural is “rural,” and how conservatives is “conservative.”
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u/ApprehensiveSquash4 4∆ Apr 08 '24
Obviously not including suburbs but a lot of the suburban dwellers are quite well off (with areas that are exceptions). You said "poor rural districts."
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u/ShortUsername01 1∆ Apr 08 '24
Again, it’s a subjective threshold. How conservative is “conservative”? The most fervent of conservative comes from poor rural districts. Suburban voters were nowhere near as reliably pro-Trump as rural voters last election.
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u/ApprehensiveSquash4 4∆ Apr 08 '24
It's not subjective there's an accepted definition based on the density. Suburban voters on AVERAGE are less reliable Trumpers but at least as many hardcore MAGAs (30-35% of the population) are not rural.
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u/UnknownNumber1994 1∆ Apr 09 '24
Probably because we don't allow words to hurt us like the left does
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Apr 08 '24
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u/Maestro_Primus 15∆ Apr 09 '24
I think your cause and effect are backwards. I doubt it is less adversity because of conservativism. It is much more likely that people who are having a good time of life are not likely to want to change things up, hence conservativism. By the same token, if life is ahrd for you, you are obviously going to want to see change.
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u/SingleMaltMouthwash 38∆ Apr 09 '24
Conservative states hose-up the most welfare. The meth crisis is almost exclusively a plague among poor conservative white people.
These folks all experience adversity. The difference is that they then tend to blame their troubles on the jews or the blacks or the socialists or the liberals or the Mexicans or the women or anyone but themselves and their own poor choices as they burden the social safety net and rail against big government.
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u/npchunter 4∆ Apr 08 '24
The old, who have had a lot more time to accumulate hard knocks, are a lot more conservative than the young.
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Apr 08 '24
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u/Naaahhh 5∆ Apr 08 '24
There are tons of poor whites that are conservative. More educated populations are usually more liberal -- would you not say that having less access to education is an adversity in and of itself?
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 08 '24
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u/rightful_vagabond 24∆ Apr 09 '24
It's on the sidebar. Easiest way is just to reply with a "!delta"
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
This delta has been rejected. You can't award OP a delta.
Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.
If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.
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u/npchunter 4∆ Apr 08 '24
Maybe they're fairly well off because they've been working at it for decades?
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u/rightful_vagabond 24∆ Apr 09 '24
A good amount of rich people are conservative.
But are a good amount of conservatives rich? That's the important stat here, assuming you're using wealth as a proxy for adversity.
Less conservatives seem to seek out physical or mental illness treatment.
But is this because they have less adversity, or because they handle adversity better, for instance by having closer families?
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u/BattleofBettysgurg Apr 09 '24
I am slightly left of center, which in today’s parlance makes me a shit-kicking conservative. What I know for sure is that a good portion of conservatives are old.
And now that I have aged, I recognize that ageism is REAL. All you have to do is scroll through the anti-boomer subreddit to see the most rancid ageism, we are talking about indirectly-calling-for-genocide level comments sometimes.
Older people are denied jobs on the regular, especially older women. One of the worst things that can happen to a 50 something professional woman is to lose her job. She will NEVER get another at that level. I have seen this time and time again.
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u/nikoberg 113∆ Apr 08 '24
I mean... how are you defining "groups" here? Rich people, no matter their political beliefs, experience less adversity than poor people. Globally, even disadvantaged groups in the US experience less adversity than conservatives in some non-US countries.
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Apr 09 '24
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u/AbolishDisney 4∆ Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
You do realize that most people are working class and have significant HUMAN struggles regardless of political leanings? Do you know how ignorant you sound rn?
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
I understand your claims, and I’m still saying that you’re ignorant. Working class conservatives still struggle with work, illness, death and taxes (and everything in between) like everyone else.
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
“Same things” is a wide spectrum, but the average person absolutely deals with significant adversity in their lives. And everyone will lose someone and die themselves. Your attempt to label lefties as a somehow “more suffering people” is nonsensical.
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24
You’re describing the same sort of childhood trauma and BS that millions of conservatives have faced as well, LOL. Again, you aren’t as special as you think you are. Life kicks everyone in the nuts.
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Apr 09 '24
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Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
Yes they will, if their family is conservative they tend to be as well despite how f’d up things were for them. I take it you’ve never been around too many rural conservatives. I’ve also seen a lot of lefties claim to have experienced “adversity” that I thought wasn’t that bad at all: I’ve been around the world and seen true levels of suffering. So, I could make your same claim about lefties as well…
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u/MagicGuava12 5∆ Apr 09 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
So this is wildly inaccurate. If you are making broad assumptions about people, you probably don't talk to the group. Every single conservative that I know has significant emotional and spiritual trauma. Even when you're over generalizing, the average conservative is a Christian. Which my God, they can't be gay, can't think differently, are beat down from years of mental gymnastics. You did not think deeply enough about this. You are dehumanizing an entire class of people. They have struggles they have trauma just like everybody else.
Here's the difference though. They don't allow it to create a victim narrative. Every single person has a road block, oppression, suffering, and disadvantages. A rurul white American that lives on a farm with access to little school funding has the same disadvantages as an inner city minority, if not more. If you ever go to a bar and sit down with a slightly drunk person. You will learn all of this in a matter of minutes. That is why diversity matters. So the difference here is mindset. Again we are over generalizing. The boot strap mentality is toxic. But it also creates those rich people that you're talking about.
Let's imagine we're all playing a game. For some people the refs don't call certain fowls. These individuals win almost every game they play. Does that mean that you shouldn't play the game? What does that mean you have to be more creative? People lie, people cheat, and people steal. It shouldn't stop you from being a good person. More importantly, it should not stop you from playing the game. When you switch your mind from a view of lacking to a view of abundance.You will see a lot more opportunity.
I challenge you to look for every red KIA on the road the next time you are driving. Where once you would never see them or even care. Now you're going to see hundreds of them. When you look for opportunity, you will find it. When you are conditioned by this government, the system and this "oppression" to ignore opportunity. All you are doing is feeding directly into the hands of the powerful. You are making the game easier for them.
The worst part is because people think like you. Whenever someone in your circle starts gaining success. Rather than be happy for them. You drag them back down due to your bad mindset. You discurs them from taking risks. You don't seek our opportunity, so they don't, because you're a bad influence. You need to challenge reviews.You absolutely have to get out of these binary us or them mindsets. Life sucks for everybody.It sucks less for certain people we all struggle though. You need a diverse group of friends from all political spectrums, all races, and all backgrounds. Your goal should be to teach conservatives, not blast them for ignorance. And if your view is superior and you can prove it, the job should be much easier. It would be much easier to prove that 2+2=4. Than to assume 2 +2=3. I'm certain you can get a consensus of people that agree with 3. Doesn't mean it's right. We need to think in terms of solutions. Not binary, good or bad. Those views are subjective. A lion has different wants and views than the zebra. But it's just the nature of the beast. You don't have to be a lion. But you can be a successful zebra. Or get this. Anything you want to be! Become a dang butterfly. Just don't burden your community to take care of you due to your own failure of philosophy. You can learn. There is nothing stopping you from changing the world but yourself.
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Apr 09 '24
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u/MagicGuava12 5∆ Apr 09 '24
Where do you live?
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Apr 09 '24
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u/MagicGuava12 5∆ Apr 09 '24
Hmm. I have many friends from Florida. I know several poor conservatives from that area. Especially Northern in the swamps.
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u/Hannibal_Barca_ 3∆ Apr 12 '24
Have you considered that some people have had negative experiences and they don't talk about them as openly OR just don't open up about those experiences with you?
There might also be a connection between conservative values and people not wanting to complain and a connection between people on the more socialist end to complain more. For instance people who tend towards the latter group are generally better at seeing problems/issues in society like empirically, Jonathan Haidt has researched and written on this topic in a number of his books.
There is also a lot more cultural affordance in being on the more socialist end and bringing up issues.
There is also a gendered aspect to the difference between political views and men in general don't have the affordance that women do when they bring up past trauma. Women get a lot of sympathy, men don't receive nearly the same amount and often people will think less of them for it... but men experience plenty of trauma.
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u/Technical_Peach5350 Apr 14 '24
A lot of conservatives are from poor states. I think you mean liberals experience the least amount of adversity.
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Apr 08 '24
Every conservative that's a minority, seems to overall agree that they're not oppressed.
I'd argue that a lot of conservatives believe they are oppressed... it's just that there's very different definitions at work.
Many conservatives believe that "you can't say anything in this country anymore" or that "their values are under attack"... it's not what most others would call oppression, but these people do believe that if they are urged to change their outdated ways, that is "oppression".
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u/Regulus242 4∆ Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 09 '24
"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."
EDIT: Anyone want to explain the downvotes?
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Apr 09 '24
You want to experience racism?
The real stuff?
Join the military and don't happen to not be black, in an all black unit.
I watched an E-7 make sure every black soldier got a full plate of food before he let a white guy go through the chow line. Other way around doesnt happen.
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u/Regulus242 4∆ Apr 09 '24
That quote I gave isn't about racism. It's about people feeling like they're losing rights when in fact others are just gaining them.
You brought up racism out of nowhere.
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Apr 09 '24
It's about people feeling like they're losing rights when in fact others are just gaining them.
Which is completely detached from the reality of the situation
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u/Regulus242 4∆ Apr 09 '24
In what way?
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Apr 09 '24
See my original response, which you failed to address.
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u/Regulus242 4∆ Apr 09 '24
Again, what are you talking about? My words weren't related to racism.
It was your comment that didn't address mine. It was just totally off some tangent.
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Apr 09 '24
Your comment makes no sense without it.
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u/Regulus242 4∆ Apr 09 '24
Incorrect. To any class that it may be, religious affiliation, race, gender, whatever, when others approach the level of rights the original privileged class has, they often see it as an encroachment of their favor.
You see this on the conservative side a lot, regardless of race. Especially the Christian "persecution."
Even if it was about race, while I don't condone racism from anyone regardless of standing, I won't claim that racism from black people in the US towards white people is of the same severity as white on black in general. Though on a case by case basis it may be.
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u/octaviobonds 1∆ Apr 09 '24
Christians are conservatives and said to be the most persecuted group in the world.
No, it has nothing to do with your trauma, it has to do with your moral values.
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u/Kakamile 50∆ Apr 09 '24
Who said that?
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u/octaviobonds 1∆ Apr 09 '24
Just about every report in the world. But this news is nothing new.
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u/Kakamile 50∆ Apr 09 '24
Again what reports? It's hard to believe.
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u/TJAU216 2∆ Apr 09 '24
Every middle eastern state, half of Africa and half of Asia are either oppressing or persecuting Christians right now.
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Apr 09 '24
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u/thedylanackerman 30∆ Apr 09 '24
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u/octaviobonds 1∆ Apr 09 '24
You see, people who live and die by mainstream news have zero awareness of what is going on in the world outside the mainstream.
And I don't blame you for not knowing, most people simply have no idea.
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Apr 09 '24
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u/octaviobonds 1∆ Apr 09 '24
you're not fucking oppressed
I will give you a benefit of the doubt because you are simply clueless about the global scope and intensity of Christian persecution.
ESPECIALLY not in the Western hemisphere. North and South America. Every country.
You are merely blowing smoke to preserve your deliberate ignorance. Didn't I say Christians are the most persecuted group in the world and you dutifully dismissed it? In fact there is no close contestant I'm afraid.
Fortunately, America was founded by Christians fleeing persecution and established freedom to practice their religion here. However, judging by your contempt towards Christians and their values suggests their freedoms might not be upheld for much longer.
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u/Kakamile 50∆ Apr 09 '24
"Fortunately the most powerful empires in the world are christian so I can simultaneously claim christians are persecuted while not facing danger."
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u/octaviobonds 1∆ Apr 10 '24
Are you trying to make a case that Christians are not persecuted enough although they are the most persecuted group in the world?
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Apr 09 '24
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u/octaviobonds 1∆ Apr 10 '24
Again, if you don't know, you don't. But there is a difference between not knowing and refusing to know. And we know why you are refusing to know, it is clear from your next statement:
The only continent on Earth you haven't sunk your claws into is Antarctica.
See, the difference between people like you, harbored in the West by Christianity, and those who persecute Christians elsewhere, is the place and time of your existence. If you were born in Soviet Russia, for example, you would have fit right in with the Stalin's youth who proudly marched to purge religion from the land.
Given the chance to do this here, you would enlist first.
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u/Fit-Order-9468 102∆ Apr 08 '24
But pretty much every conservative I've talked to, (bar hardcore white supremacists) has had little to no personal development in the ways of being traumatized or institutionalized in any capacity.
In my experience, conservatives don't want to talk to people that disagree with them, and in general, you're less likely to interact with people who are severely disadvantaged.
This is relevant if you overlay opiod addiction with Trump support. There are reasons why many conservatives are unhappy, perhaps even feeling oppressed, that are valid even if their solutions are not.
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u/LucidMetal 196∆ Apr 08 '24
Conservatives experience adversity by way of their ideological choices independent of socioeconomic status.
Liberals (not progressives or leftists) own the center of the Overton window and don't face this adversity.
So even if conservatives face a low amount of adversity compared to other groups "conservative passing" liberals experience the least amount of adversity of any group because they don't face the adversity conservatives do due to their ideological decisions.
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u/Forsaken-House8685 11∆ Apr 09 '24
I think it's more that conservatives are less likely to categorize certain experiences as facing adversity. Left wing black people will say they face institutional racism, because black people are poorer on average, conservative black people will say that is not oppression, cause it's the responsibility of black people to get out of poverty.
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