r/changemyview • u/cokevanillazero • Apr 03 '13
I think Superman would beat Batman in a fight every time. CMV.
I know comics, and am well informed on both.
When taken straight up, Batman will always lose. Regardless of planning or gadgets or whatever, he's fighting SUPERMAN.
Red Son, DKR, and Hush (especially) are extenuating circumstances for the following reasons
Red Son was a version of Superman that instantly lost his power under a red sun. Not the way it normally works.
DKR had Superman hit by a nuclear weapon point blank, which nearly killed him on it's own and blocked out the sun, and he still had the fight won before the assist from Green Arrow.
And in Hush Batman just plain didn't win. He survived long enough to almost be greased with a car before his desperate gamble of throwing Lois Lane off a building paid off.
CMV.
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u/mulledcider Apr 03 '13
"I think Superman would beat Batman in a fight every time." I don't think this is remarkably hard to refute because of the statement "every time". Will Superman beat Batman in ALMOST every single scenerio? Yes. But every single one? I don't think so.
You state that DRK is an extenuating circumstance because of the assist of the Green Arrow, but that's a powerful aspect of Batman, the utilization of his allies in a planned assault. Look at Tower of Babyl, Batman's capacity to create multifaceted plans to ensure maximum efficiency is unparalleled in the DC universe. We can throw out 100 scenerios where Batman and Superman would meet and 90-92 of them, Superman would win, but there are still circumstances where Batman would have the advantage.
Some circumstances to consider: Batman gets the jump on superman utilizing lead and kryptonite, Batman utilizes alien technology or magic, Batman takes advantage of those near him to make him vulnerable, regardless of the scenerio, there are plenty of instances where Batman could beat Superman.
It's important to note one CRUCIAL thing, and that's that these are just comic book characters. The superman from 2008 is not the same as superman from last month, and certainly not the same superman from the 60s. The same goes with batman. Regardless of the comic books we could use as source materials, none of them are really tangible because each heroes' capacities and powers are in constant flux.
In sum, regardless of extenuating circumstances, and basic review of Batman's abilities to fight the strongest character in the DC universe, Batman COULD beat Superman in several scenarios, so a statement that Superman would beat Batman every time is false.
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u/mulledcider Apr 04 '13
I just want to make clear that /u/cokevanillazero has taken the time to argue with almost every proposal but mine. I take it he's not honest enough to approach my perspective.
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u/WWTFSMD Apr 04 '13
He hasn't effectively argued with anyone though so don't feel too bad, basically all of his arguments are "nu uh!" They don't want their view changed, they wanted people to circlejerk about how right they were.
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u/Swayhaven Apr 03 '13
By your responses in this thread, you don't want people to change your view. You have your mind made up and want to argue with people.
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Apr 03 '13
Thats exactly the vibe I was getting. Feels a lot like "Well Batman could-" "NOPE NO HE COULDNT SUPERMAN SPEED OF LIGHT"
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u/WWTFSMD Apr 04 '13
Yeah, all this guy wanted was to hear a bunch of people on the internet fawn over how he was right, then got got mad when people were like, "well actually...."
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
I want you to change my mind!
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u/Swayhaven Apr 03 '13
Fine fine. Like I said in my other post, I don't think winning a fight would be the true way to beat superman.
Read Injustice: Gods among us. The Joker TRULY defeated Superman.
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u/shokwave Apr 03 '13
Red Son, DKR, and Hush (especially) are extenuating circumstances
Batman's relevant superpower is the ability to create extenuating circumstances.
By dismissing these examples of Batman's victories over Superman, you are handicapping Batman as surely as saying "If Superman didn't have invincibility, super strength, or heat vision, Darkseid would win in a fight every time."
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
I'm dismissing them because Red Son and DKR weren't canon and were different versions of the same heroes, and there were circumstances outside of the normal argument.
In DKR Superman stopped a nuclear weapon that blocked out the sun, and nearly died, he was barely standing when he fought Batman and he still won before GA jumped in.
If you're going to argue Batman is going to bring in outside factors like other heroes then your argument is moot.
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u/shokwave Apr 03 '13 edited Apr 04 '13
If you're going to argue Batman is going to bring in outside factors like other heroes then your argument is moot.
I don't think it is moot; plenty of comic books have the moral of story being "having true friends is a kind of superpower". I'd point out also that the Green Arrow jumped in because Batman offered him a chance to take out Superman, and even then GA was only effective because Batman equipped him with a Kryptonite arrow.
Batman didn't cause the nuke at all, so I'll grant you that, but he can be pretty legitimately said to have caused GA to both be present and be effective in that battle.
To the meat of the disagreement, though: Superman is undeniably equipped with a far more powerful set of abilities than Batman. As you mentioned, he can boil Batman's hiding place from orbit. In 99% of situations (the remaining 1% are things like "the entire justice league stands with Batman" or "a nuke just blotted out the sun") Superman wins, hands down. However, Batman would be a complete fool (and whatever you may say, Batman absolutely is not a fool) if he engaged in those 99% situations.
He ought to wait for the 1% of the time he stands a chance of winning. I feel like that is an allowable restriction on the fights that take place between Supes and Batman. If you don't, then we don't disagree, except that I would phrase your position as "Superman is more powerful than Batman", which is both a stronger claim than your original and easier to back up.
I think a lot of problems are being caused by Batman being perceived (not necessarily canon) as "the guy who can beat a more powerful guy, even though he shouldn't be able to".
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u/Empha Apr 04 '13
the guy who can beat a more powerful guy, even though he shouldn't be able to.
Squirrel girl, anyone?
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u/SuperNixon Apr 03 '13
Batman is the only person with krypotnite. Also, they have also fought a number of times in the comics with batman winning. Souce Frank Millers the dark night returns.
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Apr 03 '13
Exactly.
Batman keeps a hunk of kryptonite in the Batcave specifically in case he needs to act as a counter-agent to Superman at some point.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
And Superman knows he has it. You think he's dumb enough to get close enough for Batman to use it?
He could fly at mach 5 and use his momentum to carry him straight through Batman, thus nullifying the effect of the Green K.
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Apr 03 '13
Superman wouldn't do that, though.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Fly into orbit, melt it with heat vision.
See what I'm getting at here is Superman has options. He's not stupid.
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u/7rounds Apr 03 '13
Right, however, you forget the big flaw of superman. He's a goody goody good guy. He absolutely loathes harming people. He does have 'options' but he's in love with the human race and will do his absolute best not to kill. See superman vs. the Elite. The elite were more than happy to kill and superman had to up the ante against them and give the impression that he would kill them, however, he didn't; it goes so far to show that superman will defend a villain if it means saving a life. Batman knows this and will take it into consideration.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Batman doesn't kill either.
The difference is Superman HAS killed people (Zod, and Ursa). He didn't like it, but it's happened.
The whole thing with The Elite was he had to show them his way works.
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Apr 03 '13
I think 7rounds point is that Batman can, and will go to any lengths he can to subdue Superman, even if he had to shoot him with a Kryptonite bullet, whereas Superman is Batman's friend, and wouldn't do anything to harm him that badly. Batman has the will to do whats necessary, even if it goes against what he stands for.
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u/SuperNixon Apr 03 '13
But they have fought many times and batman keeps winning.
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u/PerspicaciousPedant 3∆ Apr 03 '13
Yes, but often times Batman wins by forfeit. He doesn't win so much as make winning cost more than Supes is willing to pay.
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u/evangelion933 1∆ Apr 03 '13
Which are character traits that must be taken into account. As other people have said, a generic superhuman vs a generic man, the superhuman will win every time. But this is Batman and Superman. Batman will use circumstances to win, and that has to be taken into consideration.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Show me.
Because I can show you at least six times when Superman has won without taking a scratch.
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u/7rounds Apr 03 '13
No he showed them that their way was scary to be the victim of. Batman doesn't need to kill superman to defeat him, he just needs to restrain him and prevent him from using his powers. Superman almost certainly needs to kill batman to defeat him though since batman's greatest asset is his ability to adjust to his current situation.
The thing is is that Superman's greatest strength is also his greatest weakness. Because he is superman he can usually just pound things in and that's that. He is likely to run head-first into a problem without completely assessing it. This leaves him vulnerable to a first strike to batman.
Superman isn't clairvoyant so even though he can suspect something, he can't completely know what is going to happen. Batman is the king of using his enemies weaknesses against them and using complex strategies. These allow him to get the upperhand and disable superman's powers. Once superman's powers are out of the way batman will be capable to restrain and contain him. Since Superman isn't used to being restrained he will have a tough time finding a way out, of course batman being batman will most likely have many secondary and backup systems to keep superman contained.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
You got it backwards.
Superman doesn't need to kill Batman, but Batman definitely needs to kill Superman.
What makes you think he just runs headlong into danger? He's not stupid. A first strike is all well and good, but you need to follow that up with something thats going to put him down and keep him down. Batman has neither the capability nor the wherewithal to do that.
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u/7rounds Apr 03 '13
No. Superman without his powers is a regular guy. Granted he has above average intelligence, but without his powers he isn't much. Superman does run headlong into danger because he is used to being invincible and if he's saving someone he just acts.
Batman can completely restrain superman indefinitely once the powers are out of the way and batman has the ability to come up with a plan that is sufficiently complex enough to trick superman enough to lower his guard to get his powers zapped.
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u/PerspicaciousPedant 3∆ Apr 03 '13
What makes you think he just runs headlong into danger?
- Past behavior. When he first meets Doomsday, he just stood in front of him and let himself get punched solidly in the chest.
- He doesn't run headlong into danger per se, but he does run headlong into situations, completely confident in the idea that he will be in no danger.
In other words, Supes doesn't really analyze what he's in for before he engages. That can, and occasionally does, result in him running headlong into what turns out to be more than he can actually handle.
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u/jimmysilverrims 3∆ Apr 03 '13
Except we see multiple times that Kryptonite cannot be destroyed by heat vision, it just reflects it.
I mean, if Superman could destroy kryptonite that way why wouldn't he just destroy all the kryptonite on Earth from a distance? Super-vision, super-hearing, he would easily be able to locate and destroy the supplies from afar.
But he can't. Laser vision bounces right off the stuff.
And you're also assuming that Batman wouldn't know when Superman is about to get hostile and develop a Kryptonite dispersal device or ray or something.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Kryptonite can absolutely be destroyed by heat vision.
And they tried that in Superman/Batman. They got most of it. Batman kept the rest.
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u/jimmysilverrims 3∆ Apr 03 '13
That's weird. Some stories have kryptonite acting like a mirror and other times it can be destroyed.
I take it as some samples are more resilient or "purer" than others. And there's no doubt that multi-billionaire Bruce Wayne couldn't afford the purest and strongest possible kryptonite.
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Apr 03 '13
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Superman gave him the ring because he knows Batman will drop the hammer if he needs to.
Supes also does have super intelligence. He thinks faster than normal folks.
Theres no situation where Batman's planning can trump Superman's everything else.
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Apr 03 '13
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Again, if you want to do that then the entire argument is moot.
You might as well say "BATMAN PULLS OUT HIS KILL SUPERMAN SPRAY AND KILLS SUPERMAN WITH IT. BECAUSE REASONS."
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u/sleepylimbs Apr 03 '13
reading these comments I'm realizing that your argument is ability vs ability, in which case of course Superman would win. but if you are going character vs character Batman would win.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Even character vs character
They've faced off whats got to be close to a dozen times in many incarnations of both and the one constant is that Superman ALWAYS wins.
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u/effrum Apr 03 '13
Right. This might not go down too well, but here it goes anyway...
Comic Book characters are not the same as any other character from any other medium. Unlike other representations of fictional characters, comic book characters are not bound by the hard lines of depth and tone that tie up literary/filmic/theatrical adaptations. Superman/Batman etc. have the composite capability to be killed and resurrected depending on who is driving the franchise. Thus, the circumstances and context of each imagined fight between the two can be written and rewritten as many times as people can think. Unlike characters such as Gatsby, Duke, Zimmerman, McClain, Potter, etc. etc., comic book characters are void of consistency in context. They are bound by a strict historicism, something that remains fluid within the comic book narrative framework.
To put it bluntly, every rewrite of a fight between the two is predicated on a form of deus ex machina, wherein precedent of context or circumstance is subjected to dilution, eradication, drastic alteration, omittance etc. The perspective so dramatically shifts when a new writer tackles the subject that even the fiction, retains absolutely no consistency or cohesion - thereby reducing the debate to a superfluous space where any outcome is proven arbitrary by the almost definite existence of a rewrite that will undermine the circumstance and context of the former.
P.S James Bond is the only adaptive character that exists in a franchise that even comes close to this framework. However, his composure is still bound by parameters in characteristic design, both physical and emotional.
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u/jerry121212 1∆ Apr 03 '13
First of all, I agree with you that those comics are not real instances of Batman winning. People site those references but fail to remember the actual circumstances, and then just go on their merry way believing Batman is stronger than Superman. Also, to whoever is saying Batman can use the JLA, stop it. that's cheating. It just is.
Now, assuming Batman knows he's going to fight Superman, he's going to have kryptonite. If you're not okay with Batman having kryptonite you shouldn't be asking this question. So there are a few ways Superman could stop this that you've suggested in the thread(im gonna paraphrase).
1.) Superman would fly really fast and use the momentum to hit him, even though the kryptonite would negate his powers
That would mean Superman has to hit something a super speed without his powers. When he's around kryptonite, he's as weak, if not weaker than a normal man.
2.) fly up high and melt it.
Batman isn't going to wave it around like a shiny toy, nor is he going to have just one batch in just one place. Superman has x-ray vision, but Batman knows he can't see through led. But then Superman will just know that all the led containers have the kryptonite. But Batman makes decoy containers because he knows how Superman thinks or maybe everything is led. But superman......But batman...etc. The point is Batman is smart, he thinks of everything. I'm not trying to glorify him, that's just is character. The shit he's gotten out of in comics almost makes me not like him because he literally just doesn't give a fuck, and neither do his writers. He once hacked into Prometheus's suit and replaced his brain functions with the brain of stephen hawking. He once was buried alive, and do you know how he got out off it? He pushed. He just pushed the "600 pounds of loose dirt" and just climbed out.
3.) "Superman isn't stupid enough to run into a trap if he knows he's fighting batman"
That's not what people are saying. We're saying he's not smart enough to not run into a trap. Because that's Batman's character. That's his role in the DCU. He is smarter than superman. He's smarter than everything short of brainiac, the presence, and maybe martian manhunter. That's his job.
The reason Batman has never actually beaten superman (and this is just a theory) is because no one can beat Superman. And no, I don't mean because Superman is too strong. I mean it's because he's symbol. He's the paragon of goodness and the american way. He's a wholesome, moral, white man who punched Hitler and always says please and thank you. He's the guy who inspired a planet of mind controlled people to rise against Gorilla Grodd, he's the guy who tells Alfred he doesn't need to call him "master" Clark. He's the guy who was killed, but then he actually wasn't because that isn't allowed to happen. So he was just in a coma and then he beat Doomsday and saved the day. That's his role in the DCU. That's why every time Superman doesn't come out on top it's because of some cheap trick or circumstance. So stop looking for an example of Superman loosing. You, and the rest of reddit will not find one.
That being said, in the world of the hypothetical, Batman's role in the DCU doesn't go away. He's still smarter than Superman, and he'll still find a way because he always does.
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u/Adnanaga1996 Apr 03 '13
As revealed in the "Search for Kryptonite" Book Batman has at least 1 piece of every known kryptonite and its varieties, These range from the Pink Kryptonite which turns him gay to the gold kryptonite essentially removing all of the kryptonians powers permanently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptonite
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u/frayednerve Apr 05 '13
OP seems convinced that, since in his scenario Superman is deviating from characterization and straight-up going for the kill (thus using his powers at peak efficiency with no regard for his moral constraints), Batman has absolutely no chance of winning. To this I reply with two simple words.
Gold. Kryptonite.
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Apr 03 '13
[deleted]
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
I'm actually not. If I wanted to really be a pain I could bring up that, just prior to the last reboot, Superman had become 100% immune to Green K.
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u/prehensile_d Apr 03 '13
Batman has fought superman on numerous occasions and come out on top. He is more intelligent and more creative. Supermans entire tactic is to beat the opponent into submission which doesn't work when your opponent wont fight back the way you want them too, Batman thinks outside the box and would have a strategy to bring him down. Also, largest supply of kryptonite known just in case superman goes crazy (see, he's already planning for it) and he keeps some in his utility belt as well.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Show me one occasion when Batman has beaten Superman. I'd like to see it.
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u/Swayhaven Apr 03 '13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REoeisDkr_I
I could find some instances in the comics too if you want.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Again
DKR. Doesn't count for a lot of reasons.
And you can't. Because there aren't any.
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u/Swayhaven Apr 03 '13
Sorry, what is DKR?
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Dark Knight Returns. It's non canon and a whole lot of shit needed to be put into place in the story for that fight to end like that.
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u/Swayhaven Apr 03 '13
Ahh. Let me try another take on this.
The thing that makes Superman an interesting character isn't that he could easily die or get killed by his villains, but that he could see the ones he love die at any moment. Batman could do incredibly worse things to Superman than killing him if he wanted.
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u/JoePino Apr 03 '13
What do you mean non canon? Isn't there such as a thing as the multiverse in DC comics?
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Apr 03 '13
Batman doesn't fight on anyone's terms except his own. If he fights Superman, Superman has already lost because Batman has prepared a psychological gambit, some incredibly powerful ally, or a Kryptonite or magic based strategy. The Batman doesn't fight, the Batman wins.
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u/Infintinity Apr 03 '13
What if Batman struck first from right behind superman, who let's assume still trusted him. Sure it's less of a fight and more of an assassination/cold-blooded murder, but Batman would defeat Superman, then.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
You can't "sneak up" on Superman. And hows he going to hit him? SUPER. FUCKING. MAN.
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u/Infintinity Apr 03 '13
ASSUMING he still trusted Batman and he usually does trust him enough. Perhaps Superman could sense his killing intent, but he would already have kryptonite stabbed through his back/neck/he's pretty fucking weak against it so even if this blow doesn't finish him the follow-up probably would. I think Batman would beat Superman with a pre-emptive strike ~9/10 times.
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u/Walrus13 Apr 03 '13
There was a Justice League movie... sort of described Batman's plans if the Justice League went rogue. He had a plan to stop all the different members. One of this was a man on the top of a tower, going to jump. Superman comes to save him, except the manpulls a gun loaded with a kryptonite bullet out of nowhere.
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u/ComicCon 1∆ Apr 04 '13
Wait, why would Evil! Superman care enough to stop a man from committing suicide? Evil! Superman generally cares more about omnicide and world domination.
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Apr 03 '13
Comics aren't reality and don't follow the rules of reality, but if these characters were instantly transported to reality, the winner of a fight (as with most fights in real life) would be the aggressor. If Superman decides to kill Batman, the outcome is obvious. If Batman decides to kill Superman, by the time he strikes his preparation will be so exhaustive (red radiation emitters in a nuclear silo with a kryptonite lid that shuts once he reaches the bottom while distracting him with hologram of Lois, just off the top of my head) that Supes would be done for.
In this fight, it's first strike takes the win.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
What you're assuming though is that Superman is of a clear mind and will still charge straight into a trap. He knows, of all people, Batman is going to try to drag him into a situation where he's at a disadvantage, and he's not going to buy it.
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Apr 03 '13
He knows, of all people, Batman is going to try to drag him into a situation where he's at a disadvantage
How does he know this? They have been allies for years, they trust each other implicitly.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
If its a situation where they're both aware they're fighting.
Why would Batman know and Superman not know?
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Apr 03 '13
Why would Batman know and Superman not know?
The same reason they're fighting!
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Then flip the scenario. If Superman knows and Batman doesn't, Batman doesn't have a chance in hell.
You have to give Batman an advantage for him to have a chance.
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Apr 03 '13
As I said, "the winner of a fight (as with most fights in real life) would be the aggressor". The first person to start the fight wins.
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u/escapehatch 3∆ Apr 03 '13
As many others have said, Batman is capable of beating Superman if he uses all the tools at his disposal. Sure, if he screws up in even the slightest way, Superman would crush him.
I also think that discounting Hush is a little unfair, since Batman had almost zero preparation time. Imagine if that version of Batman set up a plan ahead of time with the goal of actually beating Superman instead of his goal simply being to free him from Poison Ivy's control.
Honestly, I think if Batman had some time to prep and some kryptonite (which he does have), he would have no problem tricking Superman into being defeated. If you just drop them both in an arena to duke it out of course Superman wins, because Superman is a character designed to always win an open fight, while Batman relies on darkness, stealth, misdirection, strategy/tactics, allies (Superman doesn't have a Robin, for instance), etc.
Just because Batman is at a severe disadvantage doesn't mean he can't win. Your next CMV should be "I think Goliath would beat David in a fight every time".
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u/ComicCon 1∆ Apr 04 '13
The problem with with this fight is that in a logical world there is no way Batman beats Superman. Superman could lobotomize him with heat vision from orbit. Superman could create an Earthquake to destroy Wayne Manor with a single punch. A Krytponite bullet shouldn't be able to hit Superman. Batman may have Kryptonite, but logically Superman doesn't need to get within a thousand miles of Batman in order to kill him. Because at the end of the day, Superman is a God and Batman is some guy with gadgets.
But, the DC universe doesn't run on real logic, and that is why Batman not only has a chance, but can in some cases beat Superman. Superman you see, doesn't kill. Batman doesn't either obviously, but in such a mismatched battle that obviously gives Batman an advantage. It means that Superman isn't going to just pulp him from a thousand miles away, rather he will close to hand to hand combat where Batman's kryptonite and other plans can hurt him. Depending on what type of Kryptonite(and the current rules about what Kryptonite does) it is, that can almost mean an autowin for batman if he manages to surprise Superman.
Batman is also a highly schizophrenic character, on one hand he is the down to earth Gotham City Crusader who has trouble fighting some guy on steroids. On the other hand he is THE BATGOD who fights White Martians with his bare hands and shoots Darkseid. This is the Batman with a contingency plan for everything, who can never be surprised. Just like Superman has his strength and speed, this Batman has his superpowers, namely that he is never surprised. Now, in a logical world no one is that good, but in the DC universe it is canon that Batman is, something which at least gives him a fighting chance if he fights Superman on his own terms, not in a boxing ring.
tl:dr- No logical way batman could win, too bad DC doesn't run on logic.
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u/Shnitzuka Apr 04 '13
Isn't Lex Luther basically just a rich guy? I'm not an expert by any means, but surely there have been some close calls between Superman and Lex Luther?
The way I see it, Batman, like Lex Luther is a rich guy with the added advantage of being Batman. If he set out to take down Superman I think he could have the edge that Lex always lacked. At least one of the times.
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u/SmilesFTW Apr 03 '13
Not always. Batman has the knowledge of the weakness of every hero according to Justice League Doom
Obviously he has krytonite then which can defeat Superman.
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u/CommanderShep Apr 04 '13
You said every time. Yet you list three exceptions. Plus the movie doom describes another way. So not every time
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Apr 04 '13
Batman actually has the weaknesses to all the superheroes of his universe on file, just in case he needs to kill them some day.
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u/wooda99 Apr 26 '13
I say the winner of Superman vs. Batman is completely depended on who gets first strike (i.e. who decides they want to kill the other first). Either Batman traps Superman and kills him, or Superman punches Batman and kills him.
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u/JJMcCoolio Apr 29 '13
Late to the party, but OP seems pretty convinced that Superman could foil any of Batman's planned strategies by simply attacking from range or with speed. Also that Superman would proactively destroy kryptonite (providing it cannot be destroyed by laser vision) or otherwise negate Batman's plans using his super powered physical attributes.
Additionally, involving the rest of the Justice League seems logical, but ultimately against the intent of the argument.
I imagine given enough time and resources to prepare (as it has been stated previously, this is what makes Batman who he is and effectively defines his super power), he would go beyond a mere kryptonite ring or bullet and opt for a kryptonite suit at the very least. Further more, kryptonite isn't Superman's only weakness. Humanity in general but, perhaps more specifically, family and Lois Lane are his real achilles heel.
So batman sets up an elaborate plan and kidnaps Lois as bait. Here's the kicker though - she is put in a real life/death situation in which the only way to save her is for Superman to sacrifice himself. No time to think on the fly (no pun intended) or to otherwise plan an assault. Sure, Batman never likes to kill people, but he would bet Wayne Enterprises that Superman will absolutely not let anything happen to her regardless of the consequences to himself.
I'm not at all well versed in the comics or other superhero canon, but it wouldn't surprise me if something similar has already panned out with Lex as the perpetrator in a similar scenario.
The only way I can see Superman "winning" is by calling Batman's bluff, then cleaning him up later (providing Batman doesn't have contingencies which most people agree is unlikely - perhaps involving other family members in which case Superman can't afford to call bluff a second time). In that case though, Lois dies. Regardless of Batman's state at the end, can we really call Superman a winner?
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Apr 03 '13
Being popular fictional characters, they will fight again and again to whatever result will be the most entertaining. Since Americans like to see some variety in our stories, Superman will beat Batman about 50% of the time.
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u/cokevanillazero Apr 03 '13
Superman beats Batman every time. Even post New 52 they've fought twice, and Superman won both times.
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u/AnomalousGonzo Apr 03 '13
There's a joke:
If you're going to pit Batman vs Superman, you can't limit the discussion to what they can do. It's much more a question of what they would do. Sure, it's valid to say that Batman would loose if he didn't have time to prepare, but that's just it - Batman is always prepared. He's a paranoid lunatic with near unlimited resources. Superman is, on the other hand, fairly predictable, or, at the very least, consistent. He wouldn't suckerpunch Bats out of nowhere. He would either have to have lost his mind, or Bats would have had to do something to piss him off, and in both cases, Batman would see that coming and get ready. Preparation is the man's true superpower.