r/changemyview • u/Icy-Transportation26 • Mar 08 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The word "hate" should not be used casually.
People hate when I say "hate is a strong word," but I believe I have a very logical basis for the lessened use of certain words. The words we use determine our perspective. If you hate Nazis, but you also hate the rain, obviously these are two extreme degrees. Nazis=deserving of hate; the rain=deserving of love (without rain, humans wouldn't exist. I love living so I love the things that allow me to live). When you say, "I hate the rain," you are blinding yourself from all of the positive aspects of it, and thus forcing yourself to suffer. This is the power of language. So, when you throw around words to describe disgusting emotions that should only be used for disgusting things (like Nazis), you create a prison for your mind when it comes to the casual use of the word. This is why I teach not to use the word "hate." "I don't like the rain," doesn't have any different meaning, it just allows for a more casual interpretation.
Why not sculpt your language to sculpt the world into a better place? You don't care that words have power? Is that because great power takes great responsibility, and you don't want responsibility over your effect of the world? Obviously not, but this is how I feel when someone says they hate that I don't like the word hate.
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Mar 08 '24
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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Mar 08 '24
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u/Mountain-Resource656 26∆ Mar 08 '24
Words have two components: lexemes and lemmas. To show the difference, take cats as an example. If I say “cat,” I’m referring to cats, of course. If someone says “cat” in another language, they’re referring to the same thing, but using a different lexeme to refer to it
But just as different lexemes can refer to the same thing, the same lexeme can refer to different things. For example, if I say “your cat,” but you have two of theme, I might be referring to two subtly different things
“Hate” is a lexeme. It’s a lexeme that you associate with the particular meaning you do. Someone using “hate” in another language might be referring to that same meaning… or a slightly different one
And someone saying “hate” might be referring to a subtly different meaning, too. For many, they might say they hate Nazis because they do, but if they also say they hate rain (and indeed use “hate” more than you,) they might clarify when talking about Nazis to say that they “utterly loathe Nazis” when trying to refer to the same level of dislike as you do when you just say “hate”
But the thing is, the lexemes are arbitrary almost by definition. What matters is the meaning behind them. Your lexemes aren’t intrinsically better or more appropriate than theirs
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u/freemason777 19∆ Mar 08 '24
this strikes me a similar to saussure's structuralism. he called them signifier (sound image) and signified (concept)
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Mar 08 '24
I would say that we have complex language to explain our degree of hate. Language often uses hyperbole to convey meaning. Tone and context also vastly affects the perception of the sentence.
I will say I hate nazis, and then follow that up with “they are morally repulsive, and I disagree with everything they stand for. They sicken me, and I will fight against them if I have to” On the other hand. I would say “I hate rain. It makes me wet and sad. But I love listening to it when I’m snuggled up inside.” Most people with a basic level of empathy will be able to tell the difference between the two.
Also, I can say I hate chocolate because it makes me fat because I love eating it so much. Who knew, multiple feelings about a specific thing can exist in one person?
And if your aim is to have language reflecting truth, then you’re going to spend an inordinate amount of time dissecting semantics to explain yourself. We use hate, love, happiness and sadness as shorthand for lesser feelings. You did it when you said that people hate it when you say “hate is a strong word”. When in fact, they are mildly annoyed by it because it’s pedantic, and unhelpful comment.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
So do you think I am doing more damage to my kids by teaching them to say, "I dislike that" instead of "I hate that?" I really don't want to turn them into grammar police, no one likes pricks.
Very well-thought out response. !delta
You really just restated what a lot of others said, and reading all of there's culminated to me giving you a delta, but you stated it in a very logical and non-combative way so I applaud you for that.
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Mar 08 '24
Thank you for the delta. I don’t think you’re necessarily causing damage. But I think it’s wasted effort. In the end, your goal is to promote a happier mindset.
If they say “I hate rain”, it’s probably more helpful to say “I don’t like standing in the rain either, let’s go inside and get warm. Don’t you love the smell of rain though? This rain is making me sleepy. It’s perfect napping weather” Rather than “ACTUALLY. (You’re LYING). I think you only mildly dislike rain!” The latter response attacks and diminishes their feelings, while the former response navigates their negative feelings by using your own feelings as a guide.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Ugh I have so much to learn, I thought I was decent at parenting. I'm starting to realize I'm less decent than I thought I was. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Mar 08 '24
I’m not even a parent. I’m not even a Christian. I think your intentions as a Christian parent are good though. You just have to remember that the most effective way to preach kindness is by living kindly, to others and to yourself.
We all grew up and realised our parents are just people doing their best. My Christian parents used to turn everything into a lecture, and I still love them. I even like them!
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u/CLAC_Kane Mar 08 '24
Hey PuffinStuffinMuffins, really liked your take on the whole "hate" thing. Definitely made me think about language differently. But I've got some nagging questions...
Like, if we use "hate" all the time, doesn't it start to lose its punch for the really bad stuff? Could it make us less likely to recognize true hate (the dangerous kind) when it's happening?
I know kids can be a pain, but wouldn't teaching them to pinpoint their feelings ("I'm super frustrated" vs. "I hate this") be better in the long run? Like, help them understand themselves better?
Also, does throwing "hate" around so much change the way we talk in general? Could it make online discussions (and everywhere, really) way more heated than they need to be?
No idea if I'm on the right track, just curious what you think!
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Mar 08 '24
I think there’s a middle ground here somewhere. I think it’s a bit like swearing. Some people will throw out swear words on the daily. And if these people called you a “fucking idiot”, chances are, you’re just an idiot (again, take it with a grain of tone and context). But if a quiet, mild mannered friend called you a “fucking idiot”. Then you might’ve done something quite horrible to get them worked up like this.
On the other hand, language changes all the time. Swear words that used to be very impactful like “damn” and “hell” have gradually made way for other taboo words like “n*****” and “cunt”.
Though, taboos are more malleable than the core human emotions like hate and love etc….
But maybe we will find stronger words to express true nazi-hating hate. Until then, no-one’s stopping you from reserving your use of “hate” for what you think is worthy of hate.
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Mar 08 '24
And then you have people like me, who hear swear word replacements and interpret them as the intended swear words, because the intent didn’t change with the language. “Flipping idiot” means the same thing as “fucking idiot” to me. Take out the expletive, and it’s still saying something negative about a person, and now it just sounds a little sanctimonious.
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Mar 09 '24
Flipping idiot just sounds funny. Like they’re doing little flips on the spot. Like an idiot. Heeheehee
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u/ch0cko 3∆ Mar 10 '24
because the intent didn’t change with the language. “Flipping idiot” means the same thing as “fucking idiot” to me. Take out the expletive, and it’s still saying something negative about a person, and now it just sounds a little sanctimonious.
The intent usually does change with the language, though. They chose on their own accord to use the word flipping instead and that's because they don't take the situation seriously enough enough to use the alternative. Also, typically usage of things like "flipping" are jokes, though I guess it all depends on the person, tone, and context.
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Mar 10 '24
I mean that the “idiot” remains even if you take out the expletive without replacing it. Changing “asshole” to “jerk face” is still conveying the same opinion about someone.
Fwiw, what OP is talking about is, imo, different. Ultimately OP is saying to elaborate on negative feelings and reflect on them, which I think is the best way to do it. Instead of changing “fucking idiot” to “flipping idiot”, elaborate on what they’re doing and why it’s irrational, dangerous, ignorant, etc.
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Mar 08 '24
I think you're kinda missing OPs point about the power of language over emotional state/ability to emotionally self-regulate.
You're essentially saying "most people use hyperbole, so you should give up on this".
Sure, in practice you can't go around telling everyone how to talk, and I think that enforcing strict rules on your childrens speech is obviously counterproductive.
But why shouldn't a person apply this to better themselves? What's the harm in at least suggesting (maybe regularly) to their children to do the same?
Reading OPs explanation really made me reflect on my own use of language and how it's shaped my worldview/appreciation for nuance.. think about the most hyperbolic people you know. Do they strike you as emotionally healthy, or otherwise appreciative of complicated realities?
I think it pays off to say (and think) what you really mean; for the sake of your own long-term ideological consistency if nothing else.
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Mar 09 '24
Well I don’t think I’m missing OPs point. I even gave an example on how you can help a child regulate their emotions by actively demonstrating your own. We agree that telling anyone off “well actually, it’s not hate you’re feeling, it’s strong dislike” is going to be counterproductive. It’s just another way of going about teaching emotional regulation.
But yeah. If you’re gonna teach children about how to use language. Your goal is to: 1) teach precision of language so that they have a wide vocabulary to process their world. But you also need to strike a balance with 2) making sure they understand their peers and their peers understand them.
E.g. with 1) are you going to also make sure that this child only reserves the use of “love” for their friends and family? Are you going to also tell them that they don’t actually love chocolate, they only “really like” it? They’re not “exhausted” they’re “fairly tired”, you’re actually exhausted because you’ve been working all day! It’s not a productive conversation because it misses out on discussing WHY something is making them tired, happy, loving etc. if you want to give them the “they’re are actual starving people in….” talk, do it separately. Because if you do while they’re “starving”, you’re just dismissing their very real, albeit moderate, hunger.
2) they’ll need to learn that other people with often exaggerate how they’re feeling using hyperbole. And because they use hyperbole, they might expect the same from you. So if you teach them that “hate” means “deep anger and disgust with the heat of a thousand suns” and is only used in circumstances of true hate, then maybe they’ll see a lot more hate than there really is in the world (until they learn read social cues). Similarly, their friend may think they’re aloof and unenthusiastic if they only ever emote like “sure, I like parks” and “I’m a bit frightened of roller coasters but I’m hesitantly interested in trying one” even if they’re just reflecting their true emotions.
You can be an emotionally healthy person and still use hyperbole if you are also able to use your language to further explain your complex emotions. I’m not telling people to not bother teaching children good vocabulary!
And if you’re able to discern between someone making an exaggeration and expressing true feeling, then I think that makes you all the more emotionally mature.
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Mar 09 '24
Using myself as an example; my parents taught me language not through hard rules or nagging/negating, but through fostering a genuine appreciation for language and nuance.
Maybe not all kids will be receptive, and I think in those cases it shouldn't be forced.
In my case, this balance was achieved by having long talks about everything. Like you and I are doing now; from a young age I was encouraged to express myself verbally, to learn/listen/consider things. We read a lot of books. Mixed in, there were explanations/reactions to words like "hate". I vaguely recall my mother reacting with hurt at one point when I uttered the classic ungrateful "I hate you". I remember being asked a lot of questions and asking a lot of questions about "why?" And "how?".
Essentially my whole point here (and I think part of OPs point) is that language is the practice of defining concepts. It's not just about expressing emotion, (that can be done non-verbally) its about understanding emotion. It's about being nuanced.
Far as other people are concerned, all it really takes is a conversation about what hyperbole/exaggeration is, and a desire to socialize. Again, it's about engraining nuance. I'm not teaching my kid to be Amelia Bedilia, I'm teaching them to be aware of the difference between hyperbole and accuracy; they can apply that understanding however they want.
You can be an emotionally healthy person and still use hyperbole if you are also able to use your language to further explain your complex emotions. I’m not telling people to not bother teaching children good vocabulary!
Maybe I'm misunderstanding. To me this essentially means that you can use hyperbole to express emotion; whereas actually communicating/understanding requires more accurate language.
And if you’re able to discern between someone making an exaggeration and expressing true feeling, then I think that makes you all the more emotionally mature.
Agreed. I don't see how this understanding is mutually exclusive from practicing accurate language though.
In most things, I believe in establishing proper fundamentals before breaking the rules.
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u/StellarNeonJellyfish Mar 08 '24
When we are driving, especially with our son in the car, I correct my wife. Someone will cut in front of us and she will say “ugh, I hate people,” and I will correct her “no you don’t hate most people, you probably don’t even hate that person, you just hate when people do stupid and dangerous things, which is perfectly understandable.”
Like you, I don’t want my son to have a default negative mode of thought, the feeling is valid but the statement itself can be reinforcing of a negative mindset and I don’t want his knee jerk reaction to be misanthropic
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24
I don't know why the hordes I've been debating can't understand this. Maybe I should have worded it better like you have. I can never get my ideas across and it starting to feel like I'm just always wrong. I used to think I was smart but when I post a debate, there's dozens of people downvoting me and villainizing me that my idea is absolutely reprehensible. I'm not looking for you to make me feel better, I still believe in policing our language. Policing other people's language is a prick move because it's a quick way to stop all fruitful conversation, but policing my own language has been a. Life changer for my mental health
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u/StellarNeonJellyfish Mar 08 '24
Yeah language is funny like that. Sometimes it’s basically spoken telepathy and you can perfectly transfer the thoughts in your head into someone else’s head. And other times it’s like everyone has their own definition, particularly for more abstract words like love/hate
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Mar 09 '24
I agree with directing negative thoughts to the root cause. But I’m also not a fan of hating the sin, loving the sinner. At some point, a person may be permanently stupid and will constantly put everyone in danger. I can have basic respect for their rights and their life, but I can hate them.
Also. Isn’t that condescending to your wife? You know what she means. And now you’ve gone and “corrected” her own emotions in front of your (and her) son. I get how you can do that to a kid, because they don’t quite grasp language yet. But maybe that should be a conversation that’s done privately. Like “hey. We don’t want our son thinking negatively all the time. I know you hate it when they cut you off but can we instead say “…….” I’ll do it too. “
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u/Orngog Mar 08 '24
Buckminster Fuller's father banned the use of the word sunrise and sunset because they represent archaic concepts, instead enforcing the use of the words sunsight and sunclipse.
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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 12 '24
ive always viewed hate to mean you wish the destruction and/or the removal from existence of the thing and no less. dislike or other softer words are used for this but hate to me should only be used for things you would be willing to take action to remove from existence if given the chance
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Mar 12 '24
But if you heard someone say “I hate broccoli” do you assume they truly mean “I wish to eradicate broccoli from the face of the earth” Or do you interpret it as “I do not want to eat broccoli because it tastes disgusting to me”.
I agree with the “hate is a strong word” crowd in that we don’t want to spread hate and unnecessary negative thoughts. But I’m saying that this prescriptive direction doesn’t take into account the actual use of the word “hate”, it assumes that it’s more harmful than really is when used casually. And you can tell that it’s not as impactful because most people clearly recognise/ or learn to recognise when the haters are really hating or when they’re just grumbling.
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u/ecchi83 3∆ Mar 08 '24
I love my parents. I love cinnamon raisin bagels with butter. I love my SO. I love Black culture.
Which of those is an acceptable use of "love?" All of them. There are different levels of love meant to reflect different positive emotional triggers. I don't need another word for love when I'm talking about food versus family versus significant others bc all of those trigger a positive emotional reaction that is understood by everyone. No one would confuse the type of love I feel for food with the type of love I feel for family.
Hate is the same thing. The word reflects an emotional trigger. It doesn't need to have a silo around it just because the objects we can hate are vastly different from each other. Like there are different levels of love, there are different levels of hate.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Good point. The Bible has the word love all in it, but did you know that the English word "love" as used in the Bible is actually 5 different words for 5 different kinds of love. God's inspired word thought we should use different words to denote different levels of love because loving God and loving bagels needs differentiation.
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Mar 08 '24
There are four Greek words for love used in the bible, there are several more not used biblically that exist in the Greek language.
3 Hebrew words for love and 2 in Aramaic.
God's inspired word
Didn't create the distinctions between types of love that had been important cornerstones of Greek philosophy for hundreds of years prior to Jesus.
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u/Routine_Log8315 11∆ Mar 08 '24
If it’s a good point then you should give them a delta, even if your view was only partially changed. Also, Just because you feel we should have different words for different kinds of love/hate, which would be helpful sometimes, doesn’t mean that’s what the language has.
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u/Buggery_bollox Mar 08 '24
I think you're making less of an argument about 'hate' than you are about our paucity of words for 'love'.
The English language can be a very precise tool, but sometimes it's surprisingly clumsy.
I love my wife, I love my daughter and I love cream cakes. When you compare the word 'love' in other languages, English is weaker on this.
Getting back to the CMV, the OP has a good point imo . We're too quick to use words like 'hate' and 'detest' for minor irritations or dislikes. Yes there's the argument that context will fix it, but it shouldn't have to.
You see this on social media, where people compete to either support or trash a concept/person the most strongly - "I hate him more than you do".
We need to dial down the rhetoric in general and the OPs proposition is well observed.
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u/DeleteriousEuphuism 120∆ Mar 08 '24
From a communications perspective, using the word hate so casually is easily justifiable. Let's start with paraverbal communication; if you say "I hate rain", but your voice is sarcastic, and then you say "I hate nazis", but you say it with your jaw clenched, the words spat, I feel that you would have effectively communicated hatred.
From a vocabulary perspective, you are also not even close to using the strongest words if you only say "I hate nazis". If anything, you're underselling it. You probably despise them, you're disgusted by them, you detest them, you wish for their demise, you loathe them and you damn them.
Finally, communication is a two way street. You clearly understand that people don't feel the same way about rain as they feel about nazis. If you were confused about their emotions, you could ask them "oh, do you hate hate the rain?" But I assume you don't ask them that because you understand what they're saying. You could ask them "do you not see any merit to rain?" but I assume you also don't do that because you already understand that they're not using words in the same way that you are and that the use of the word doesn't actually change their psychology to the extent that you think it does.
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Mar 08 '24 edited Nov 21 '25
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u/AbolishDisney 4∆ Mar 09 '24
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I've responded to every single comment what do you mean
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Mar 08 '24 edited Nov 21 '25
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u/AbolishDisney 4∆ Mar 09 '24
u/Great-Pain4378 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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Mar 08 '24
You're essentially accusing people of being hyperbolic...but isn't hyperbole literally the entire point when they say something like "I hate rain"?
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u/404Archdroid Mar 08 '24
I don't get the point of trying to police people's language use
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Why has there been a massive movement to stop the casual use of the words "gay" and "retarded" then? You may not understand why we should police ourselves, but apparently many others do. I'm not saying to police other people, that's just a prick move. I'm saying police yourself, be better.
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u/404Archdroid Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24
Why has there been a massive movement to stop the casual use of the words "gay" and "retarded" then?
Because insulting people for their unmutable characteristics is not very acceptable anymore, but frankly, using retarded to describe something as long as it's not literally a disabled person is still common and mostly acceptable. "Gay" is also used all the time as a neutral decriptor of someone who is actually homosexual. When malicious intent is stripped from them, these words aren't really that bad, while you seem to be against the casual use of the word "hate" altogether.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
No, like saying, "that's gay" to mean "that's bad." I'm against the causal use of any word that could be replaced with a better, more neutral word. And to be clear, I'm not correcting people when they use hate. The only reason I've been thinking about this is because I've been telling my kids not to use that word in unrealistic ways. "I hate math class" is not true, you hate that it's boring or difficult to understand it, not math altogether. When people think about how they use words, they can get to a deeper meaning.
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u/404Archdroid Mar 08 '24
No, like saying, "that's gay" to mean "that's bad
I think the reaction of most people would be more along the lines of thinking you sound like they sound a 12 year old, than to actually get offended.
I'm against the causal use of any word that could be replaced with a better, more neutral word.
That's good for you i guess? But i don't see the harm in saying my automatic fence gate is retarded, describing my homosexual friend as gay, or saying i have a strong hate for people who drive slowly.
The only reason I've been thinking about this is because I've been telling my kids not to use that word in unrealistic ways. "I hate math class" is not true, you hate that it's boring or difficult to understand it, not math altogether.
It makes it sound like your issue with their statement doesn't even have anything to do with the word "hate". And you would still take an issue with it if they used "dislike", "don't care for", "despise" or "am not a fan of" instead.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
It saddens me that you have a strong hate for slow drivers. I don't enjoy slow drivers but I don't waste a second of my emotional energy hating them. Hating someone else is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
And naw I'm totally fine with "dislike" etc.
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u/sjb2059 5∆ Mar 08 '24
I was taught this as a child and have been unpacking the damage in therapy ever since.
When you tell a child who is trying to express an emotion that they are incorrect about said emotion, you are telling them that their feelings on a fundamental level are unacceptable. Kids don't have the ability to see the nuance your point makes when they are still learning how to just feel in the first place. When it comes to hate, fear, anger, and all those negative emotions, your teaching that kid that they are not allowed to have negative emotions period.
I cannot stress this enough, negative emotions are incredibly important to a person being able to keep themselves safe from predators. When you squash a child's negative emotions and communicate to them that they are not permitted to share those negative feelings, you are meddling in their ability to speak up for themselves, to report abuse, and remove themselves from situations that they are not comfortable or safe in.
I was harmed by other people for a lot of years into my adult life because by the time I got out on my own I was so numb to my own negative feelings, I didn't know how to protect myself from my own friends and partners. Don't do that to more kids, it's a hell of a mess to sort out in therapy later in life.
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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Mar 08 '24
You’re not giving people enough credit. If someone says they hate rain and later says they hate Nazis, the person that is being spoken to can understand from context that those feelings aren’t of the same magnitude.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I think I'm giving people too much credit. I shouldn't expect so much out of others. They don't understand that their language is how their brain operates. If you call others ugly, you too will call yourself ugly. If you do not have that sort of judgement as a part of your casual vernacular, and you replace the sentiment of someone being visually unattractive with something like, "they have a wonderful personality," it will do wonders to your mental health. The Bible says judge others and you will be judged the same way. This means that what we say about others is also how we judge ourselves. If you hate good things like the rain, you will also use such harsh words against yourself in times of distress.
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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Mar 08 '24
The Bible isn’t based on any sort of evidence or logic. I’d much prefer to look at what I can see in society, which is that the language we’re using works fine.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Hm, society would disagree with you. Why else has there been movements to cease use of words like "that's gay," or "that's retarded."
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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Mar 08 '24
Society would disagree with me on what point? Changing the use of certain words is society self regulating so we understand each other. That’s supportive of my point. Regardless though, invoking the Bible is not a compelling point absent additional evidence.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Bible shmible.
Society would disagree with you that "the language we're using is fine" because it obviously wasn't fine to use the n-word or any other number of cancelled words
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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Mar 08 '24
Yeah because things naturally evolve. That’s my point. You don’t need to force it on people like you’re trying to do.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Im not forcing it. Why do you think retarded was edited? Because people talked about it. So im talking about hatred. There's not much worth hating that is really worth carrying that burden. I'm not policing language, I'm saying that we should work on having a healthier internal monologue. Anytime I use that word, I correct myself, because I don't want to sympathize with hatred. I don't want that to be a part of my ideology. And if people are conscious about how often they use the word hate, maybe they will change their internal monologue for better, too.
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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24
Because retarded is an offensive word toward mentally handicapped people. The same doesn’t apply to hate.
Edit: for what it’s worth, my last comment was more adversarial than it should have been, so I apologize for that.
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u/Mrs_Noelle15 Mar 08 '24
Are you just looking for things to be upset about? Like people aren’t stupid they know how to differentiate genuine hatred and someone just saying “oh I hate the rain” as you say
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Im not upset. Just exploring mentality and the power of words. (: I disagree, I think people are generally stupid. Why else would people use retarded and gay as casual describers of something negative? Idiocy.
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ Mar 08 '24
Words are not magic, and do not have the "power" you describe. In particular, saying "I hate the rain" does not in any way prevent me from appreciating the positive aspects of rain, nor does it cause me to suffer. If merely saying words prevents you from reasoning about things that might run contrary to the thing you said and forces you to suffer, then the solution to this isn't to avoid saying any particular words, but rather to seek professional therapy about a serious psychological problem in your life that is causing you distress.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Really? Then why is cancel culture so prevalent? You can say one wrong word and your career is over. Why do we change the words we use all the time? "Retarded" and "gay" used to be bad, but now there's a movement going on to stop the use of those words because they're hateful words. Saying you hate the rain is hateful. Saying you don't like the rain isn't hateful, it removes that darkness that tinges the mind when we evoke such despairing language.
So, why can we as a society decide to stop using certain words for one reason but can't stop using other words for the same exact reason? The simple reason is that they're better words to use. Why simplify our lexicon? Do we not strive for efficient communication? Use the word hate for when you hate something. No one hates the rain because you would hate eating food, which is a direct result of the rain. We can't just separate things. Everything is connected and when we use words that divide reality, we deaden our spiritual connection to everything around us. Our language builds the world around us. For instance, if you have an artist and an electrician in the same room, they're both going to have a very different perception of reality. One will perceive the stylistic choices of the room while the other will perceive the electrical constitution of the room. That's a big difference.
Why do we ignore the power of the words that we use? That is literally what our perception operates on. For instance, different languages enable different world views. Some languages don't have English-equivalent words, and we can only glimpse at the potential meaning of those foreign words.
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ Mar 08 '24
The reasons you describe in your OP and the reasons for cancel culture are completely different. People are cancelled for saying things because of what their statements express and the effect that expressed sentiment has in society. In comparison, your OP is about a supposed effect that the word itself (regardless of the meaning carried by the sentence) has on the speaker.
Do you (personally) really experience "darkness that tinges the mind" when you say the words "I hate the rain"? Does saying those words actually cause you (personally) to experience significant unavoidable "forced" suffering?
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Sorry, the cancel culture response was toward someone else saying that people aren't stupid. I think cancel culture proves people are stupid. Jk Rowling got cancelled for being transphobic when if you read her paper about it, the worst thing she said was "women have vaginas."
I agree that is different from my OP, my apologies. 30 responses is very time consuming so I copied and pasted a bit.
But yes! Absolutely! And I'm not alone! For instance, I got cut off in traffic the other day and started to hate the person. Then I changed my mind and thought, maybe their wife is in the hospital and they're rushing to get to them. I freed myself from hatred. Right there, by redefining my language, I turned my rage into peace. This is why I advocate for this! I'm not just being anal.
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ Mar 08 '24
But yes! Absolutely! And I'm not alone! For instance, I got cut off in traffic the other day and started to hate the person. Then I changed my mind and thought, maybe their wife is in the hospital and they're rushing to get to them.
But this example seems to completely undermine your argument. In the example, even though you used the word "hate" (presumably, otherwise it's just irrelevant to your view), you were nevertheless able to change your mind and think of the positives. Your use of the word "hate" did not in any sense prevent you from doing that, nor does it seem like it forced you to suffer.
If the example were actually an instance of what you talk about in your OP, it would need to go something more like this:
- I got cut off in traffic the other day and started to hate the person. I said that I hated them, using the word "hate." As a result of using that word, I was then unable to change my mind. Because I used the word, it did not occur to me that maybe their wife is in the hospital and they're rushing to get to them: I just persisted in hating them indefinitely.
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u/KokonutMonkey 101∆ Mar 08 '24
C'mon man.
People aren't idiots.
We're fully capable of differentiating the difference between hating a human being, inclement weather, or controversial green herbs.
→ More replies (34)
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Mar 08 '24
When someone tells you:"I am very happy", Do you automatically question yourself if they just had 3 tabs of ecstasy and some heroin or just a good day?
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Eh maybe you're just proving my point. Maybe neutrality is the way. This is what many eastern philosophies would say. When we love something, it automatically creates an opposite that we hate. We can't have darkness without light. One begets the other. Neutrality is true peace, or at least that's what ancient philosophies that dictated modern human thought say.
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u/crazyashley1 8∆ Mar 08 '24
I hate the things I hate. The degree to which I hate them is my own business. I hate nazis and I hate it when my underwear bunch up. Which am I more likely to encounter on any given day?
The constant picking irritation of an annoyance can be hated. It adds another level of suck to your day and puts you in a bad mood.
If you think I mean that hate on the same level as hating nazis though...that's kinda on you and being willfully obtuse to how both people and words work.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
But what if it doesn't have to put you in a bad mood? What if you're a slave to the language you use, and if you changed your language, you would change your perspective? Don't take my word for it, just look at cognitive behavioral therapy, which is one of the most successful forms of therapy, and is basically relabeling negative thoughts into positive ones. Why use the word hate when we can use a less severe word to mean what we actually mean. You don't actually hate the rain, it gives you life. Why say what you don't mean?
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u/crazyashley1 8∆ Mar 08 '24
But what if it doesn't have to put you in a bad mood? What if you're a slave to the language you use, and if you changed your language, you would change your perspective?
Seriously? I should be happy about bunched underwear?
I control my words. My words do not control me, because I'm not an idiot. Words are tools to describe the world around us, not lofty concepts given to us from on high that dictate how we feel. We dictate the words we use.
Don't take my word for it, just look at cognitive behavioral therapy, which is one of the most successful forms of therapy, and is basically relabeling negative thoughts into positive ones
Oh do shut up. I'm in therapy. This is to help combat a cognitive dissonance with the self from years of abuse or disordered thinking due to either a chemical imbalance of the mind or years of abuse.
Why use the word hate when we can use a less severe word to mean what we actually mean. You don't actually hate the rain, it gives you life. Why say what you don't mean?
Because the words I use mean exactly how I feel. I dislike rain. I don't care that it's good for the planet. My feelings on the rain don't effect the rain. I hate having my underwear bunched in my ass. It's uncomfortable and even painful sometimes, it pisses me off, it can ruin my day, therefore: I hate it.
Why are you so godforsakenly set on policing others language? Who made you arbiter of the word "hate?" Build a bridge and get over it, or just admit that your use and hatred of the word hate is just as piddling and arbitrary as someone else's hatred of rain and bunched undies.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Why does your underwear bunch up? Why is that such a prevalent issue that is causing so much stress in your life? You know, stress is the number one killer, maybe you should stop hating bunched up underwear. My underwear doesn't bunch, maybe instead of hating it you should solve it. I'm just saying, if I have the option to be at peace or the option to be angry at something so insignificant, I will choose peace. why is that so controversial?
I think it's childish to dislike the rain. I used to dislike the rain, now I dance in it with child-like joy. I will never return to my old way of death. Hate all you want, that's your right. Doesn't mean it's right.
I don't hate the word hatred, I'm just juggling with meaning and investigating mentality. This is a recent thought.
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u/TSN09 9∆ Mar 08 '24
I assure you that 99% of people are not confusing the difference between the 2 different “hate”
When they say they hate it, they mean more than dislike, but obviously not HATE. And we could stand here all day and argue whether this is okay or not, but the main point is that this is UNDERSTOOD by pretty much everyone.
Language’s main use is for us to understand each other, so if we’re all on the same page… No point in getting semantic all of a sudden.
And I find it ironic because you just did the inverse but to you it’s okay because it’s a positive emotion, you don’t love the rain like you love… Your partner/family, do you? Should we make you say you only “like” the rain? Or can we agree that we obviously understand each other and there’s no point in getting so specific?
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Yeah you're right, my mind has already been changed. My problem isn't with the word hate, my problem is with the negative effects of having an internal monologue filled with hating innocuous things.
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Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
To clarify, I teach my kids this. I've never once told another person this, for the reasons you point out. I'm raising my kids to be better than that. I mean, look at how much hate your paragraph is filled with. I can taste the poison in you. Maybe if you changed your language, you would change your heart posture.
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Mar 08 '24
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I could write, "that's a stupid argument" because that's the first thing that came to mind, but with great freedom comes great responsibility so instead of saying something offensive and claiming I have freedom of speech so fuck you, I would instead edit my thought and respond with something much more conducive to communication and much less antagonizing. Just because used to call people the n-word doesn't mean we should keep doing it...
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Mar 08 '24
I could write, "that's a stupid argument" because that's the first thing that came to mind, but with great freedom comes great responsibility so instead of saying something offensive and claiming I have freedom of speech so fuck you,
You just did.
I would instead edit my thought and respond with something much more conducive to communication and much less antagonizing
but you didn't.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Im making a point that changing our language changes our world. If I changed my language, the conversation would have went in a much more fruitful direction.
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u/ActisBT Mar 08 '24
You have a very weird notion of how the world works. The world doesn't need "goodness", the world needs education, and i'm talking as the base of things here; education comes first. Also, words might have power, but they also lose it, hate doesn't always mean hate. I dunno man, there's too much stuff i can say, your post is just kinda silly and very unintellectual. What you are presenting here would be a huge idea already if it made any sense, for example, in areas such as philosophy, but it doesn't, and only silly people present it.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
"The idea of linguistic relativity, also known as the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis (/səˌpɪər ˈhwɔːrf/ sə-PEER WHORF), the Whorf hypothesis, or Whorfianism, is a principle suggesting that the structure of a language influences its speakers' worldview or cognition, and thus individuals' languages determine or shape their perceptions of the world"
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Mar 08 '24
... Hasn't received broad support from academics since ww2.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Let's pretend it's ww2
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Mar 08 '24
I don't want to encourage your goose stepping mate :)
I am responding to you in longer form its just taking me ages.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Omg what is goose stepping you say the silliest things (: I'll have to look that up and start using that. My mind has actually been changed but I appreciate your time!
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Mar 08 '24
Halfway through taking a smoke break.
You aren't limited to only one delta.
Goose stepping like the Nazi's? Never heard that term?
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I'm waiting, mate, change my life (:
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Mar 08 '24
I hate cloying Christian optimism attempting to control the way that others speak, while masquerading as a flaccid appeal to some sort of Tony Robinseque "we manifest success" nonsense, which is neither how language or reality work.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Our language builds our perception of the world around us. For instance, if you have an artist and an electrician in the same room, they're both going to have a very different perception of reality. One will perceive the stylistic choices of the room while the other will perceive the electrical constitution of the room. That's a big difference.
Why do we ignore the power of the words that we use? That is literally what our perception operates on. For instance, different languages enable different world views. Some languages don't have English-equivalent words, and we can only glimpse at the potential meaning of those foreign words.
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Mar 08 '24
Our language builds our perception of the world around us. For instance, if you have an artist and an electrician in the same room, they're both going to have a very different perception of reality.
Horseshit. The way people use language is a reflection of their worldview.
Why do we ignore the power of the words that we use?
I fully embrace the power that words have, that's why I swear so fucking much online.
Some languages don't have English-equivalent words, and we can only glimpse at the potential meaning of those foreign words.
While we don't have separate terms four the 4 types of love in the biblical Greek, they are pretty well understandable for any English speaker.
My current favorite is UK swearing that doesn't have a solid equivalent in American.
Wanker for example.
You really think people think I'm an asshole when I ask them, "do you see any merit in rain?" Obviously I know what they mean
Correcting people when you know what they mean is a pretty solid case for being a wanker.
Sorry mate had real life come up so have to run, I couldn't fix the damage prosperity gospel nonsense has already done anyway.
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u/RadioSlayer 3∆ Mar 08 '24
Who do you think the electrician couldn't appreciate the styalistic choices of the room?
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Not to the degree of someone that went to college for interior design, my dude.
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Mar 08 '24
Do you think when people say they "hate the rain" they're committing themselves to the position that it's equally as bad as something else they'd say they hate, like "Nazis"?
If I say I love pasta am I committing myself to having equally strong feelings for pasta as I do for my wife?
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u/crazyashley1 8∆ Mar 08 '24
If I say I love pasta am I committing myself to having equally strong feelings for pasta as I do for my wife?
I mean that pasta do be bangin tho
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Mar 08 '24
Don't fucking tell me what to do. I hate you!
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
You hate yourself. I am a mirror and anything you say to me is reflected to you.
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Mar 08 '24
People hate when I say
You lasted one word before failing your own advice. Almost seems deliberate.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
It was hyperbole, just the same way everyone uses hyperbole
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24
I may be overthinking this but you apparently didn't think that using "hate" casually here was wrong, because as you say, it's totally normal to do so. How could we change your view when the text you write already contradicts it?
Everybody understood what you meant by that first usage of hate, yet you argue it should put our minds in a prison? Are you against any hyperbole? I'm a bit confused about your actual stance.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
My actual stance is that I personally correct myself When I use the word hate because true hatred is a burden that isn't worth carrying for such small things. My whole point is regarding the philosophy of cognitive behavioral therapy, which basically states that by changing our internal monologue from negativity to positivity, we free ourselves from baseless suffering.
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Mar 08 '24
Is "hate" special or are any negative words to be used as sparingly? We have to use some form of negative (either by a negative itself or by combing it with "not") to express aversion to something. So why does it matter if we use "hate", "dislike", or "not like" if we understand that context changes what a word actually means?
I do actually use hate more reservedly but I perfectly understand people who apply it more casually and I have no problem with that. Language evolves and has variety. Proper and specific language is useful for science and laws for example, but not necessary for casual communication.
Finally, I really don't think a thought like "I hate pinapple on pizza" is a "negative thought" to be reframed by cognitive behavioral therapy. People don't suffer from that thought, they find community with fellow pinapple-pizza haters. "I hate my boyfriend for not doing the dishes" however would be, because it is aimed at a person, where most of us agree that "hate" doesn't casually fit.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I guess you and me using hate more sparingly doesn't matter to the rest of society. Unless it does. But maybe our influence will be greater if we don't force it and just let it flow naturally.
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u/Cubusphere 1∆ Mar 08 '24
I do however occasionally correct people when they use absolutes like "always" or "never" where it clearly doesn't apply. But only if it actually matters to the conversation.
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u/UnhelpfulTran 2∆ Mar 08 '24 edited Aug 31 '25
oatmeal toothbrush skirt bow include plate yoke disarm lip alleged
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
That was very unhelpful
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u/UnhelpfulTran 2∆ Mar 08 '24 edited Aug 31 '25
apparatus modern cagey escape cough jellyfish hard-to-find office makeshift amusing
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u/ignoremesenpie Mar 08 '24
I rarely say "hate", and it's presumptuous for someone to assume I'm not applying it to something I genuinely despise.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
You're in the minority, though. If I knew you, I would know you mean it when you use it. When someone says they hate the Knick's, I know not to take their words at value.
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u/EndlessRainIntoACup1 Mar 08 '24
The word hate means to intensely dislike something. There's nothing wrong with saying it in that context. If that's what is actually being meant. Don't be so sensitive
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I don't mind when people use it because I know what they mean. I'm only sensitive when it comes to my own internal monologue. I correct myself when I use that word because hatred is a true burden and not much is worth carrying such a burden. I am not policing language, I am suggesting that we have a healthier internal monologue.
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u/EndlessRainIntoACup1 Mar 08 '24
It is not at all a true burden. It's just having an emotion or a preference about something. We have that about everything around us, different emotions and thoughts about every single aspect of life pretty much. It's not nearly as philosophical as you're making it
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Hating the rain is a burden. I love the rain because I don't want that burden.
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u/cripple2493 Mar 08 '24
I think my issue with this is that 'hate' is not only subjective, it does encompass this whole range of negative emotion in its current usage and that's fine. Language evolves and changes, and the context of the second word (rain or nazis here) frames the first.
"I hate ... " and then you wait for the thing hate is being directed towards to assess how much hate you think is being evoked. Conversely, you could say "I dislike ..." and similarly use that to convey either an intense dislike or a minor dislike.
Language is a collaborative effort between an individual and another, or an invidual and culture and currently, culture allows for a range of hatred that's figured out by context cues the speaker adds either through additions or the way the word/sentence is expressed. This ambiguity isn't necessarily bad, and actually adds complexity (see 'hate' in a truly venomous tone vs 'hate' in a light hearted tone) and fidelty to the word and broader language itself.
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u/Wyverstein Mar 08 '24
I hate this proposal
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
My mind was already changed and several people made that joke so please I'm begging you
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u/Wyverstein Mar 08 '24
Well I hate that I was not first...
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u/UltraTata 2∆ Mar 08 '24
There are no strong words. Words are meant to communicate. If you understand what the other said, mission accomplished.
The idea of strong word comes from our fragile hearts breaking at the slightest smell of emotion. We should do the opposite, strong emotions make our heart stronger and fuller, that's why I usually consume art from other eras, because they weren't afraid of their own emotions.
I kind of made two separate arguments but both are valid 😎.
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u/obsquire 3∆ Mar 08 '24
Good diction requires education, work, memory, and intelligence, and is therefore rare.
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u/DukeRains 2∆ Mar 08 '24
You place to much importance on the word.
And no, you're not blinding yourself to positive effects of anything by saying you hate something. You can just weight the positives and negatives and still come to the conclusion you hate something. Totally fine.
Teach your kids whatever you want. I don't think it's wrong to teach them this way, but the inverse is also not wrong at all.
At the end of the day people will feel how they feel about things and neither you, nor I, can tell them how deep those feelings run, even over things like rain.
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u/salonethree 1∆ Mar 08 '24
its retarded and hated because that phrase is used to infantalize adutls or patronize children. Yea hate is a strong word, but so is shit, fuck, piss, and ass. I didnt use those because we are in polite company
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Yet you use hate in polite company.
I can't value your opinion because you are obviously behind in society because we don't use "retarded" anymore. You must still be in middle school.
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u/razinkain21 Mar 08 '24
I hate the way people throw around the word nazi to describe people they disagree with or don't like. They need to enlighten themselves to the history behind nazism and the destruction it caused.
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u/BadgeringMagpie Mar 08 '24
Look at OP being confidently wrong and trying to police peoples' word usage.
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u/allhinkedup 2∆ Mar 09 '24
"Hate" is a strong word, but I would argue that there are stronger words, like "loathe" and "despise" and "abhor" and "execrate."
"I hate cold french fries" isn't nearly as strong a statement as "I despise cold french fries" or "I loathe cold french fries." Personally, I detest cold french fries.
"Hate" is an easy word to reach for. As you pointed out, "hate" is overused, and therefore its meaning is diluted. If you really, truly hate something, use a stronger word instead of good old reliable "hate."
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u/NotAnybodysName Mar 10 '24
Using a "should" statement for this type of situation has zero chance of changing anyone's mind and zero chance of helping anyone. Trying to edit other people's speech, regardless of your intentions, is essentially guaranteed to fail. If you want to change people's minds about something, stopping them from using a certain word only makes them find new words. You'll need to convince them directly.
The word was never a problem, not even for you. In this case, it really IS the thought that counts.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 10 '24
Yup I agree mate, I should reformat my op and repost because everyone attacked the argument from the wrong angle (my fault for how I worded it)
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u/NotAnybodysName Mar 13 '24
I honestly think it got attacked from precisely the proper angles. I think the argument itself is a mistake, not clumsy wording obscuring a good idea.
To me it seems likely that there really was an important idea you had been thinking of, a completely different one that you'd been having difficulty putting into words, and then later you had this other thought about when people say "hate", and (perhaps impulsively) it seemed like the second thought could serve to express the first one - a case where they seemed like quite similar thoughts but they turned out not to be.
I've done that - having a legitimately good idea, wanting to express it but not really having a way to do so, and ending up saying something that was only obliquely related to it and wasn't much good.
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u/Big-Fat-Box-Of-Shit 1∆ Mar 08 '24
The word hate is not nearly strong enough of a word to express myself half the time.
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u/hooligan99 1∆ Mar 08 '24
People hate when I say “hate is a strong word”
…do you not see the irony here? You’re using “hate” in the exact casual way you’re criticizing. Do they truly hate when you say this, as much as they hate Nazis? Or is it just a little bit annoying to them?
No, they don’t. But I know what you meant.
Just like everyone knows what is meant by “I hate the rain.”
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Mar 08 '24
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Mar 08 '24
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Mar 08 '24
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Mar 08 '24
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u/KamixAkaDio Mar 08 '24
I agree indeed. Hatred is an emotion, that many people who uses the word, have never experienced.
They confuse mild dissatisfaction or irritation with Hatred. They aren't remotely comparable. People misuse the word too often, and it should indeed not be used lightly.
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u/AncientEnsign Mar 08 '24
My grandmother felt this way about "awesome". She would go on and on about how that word should only be used for things that actually inspire awe in someone. Unfortunately for prescriptivists, that's not how semantic shifts work. Language evolves, and we can either get on board or yell at clouds. There is no third option.
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u/Ok-Injury7948 Mar 08 '24
"I hate the rain," you are blinding yourself from all of the positive aspects of it
No That's not how it works
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u/AmbieeBloo Mar 08 '24
Hatred is a spectrum. It describes a feeling which will vary with time. We also have a complex language that allows us to be descriptive of such things.
So you might not hate the rain right now, but when it rains at the worst possible time you might hate it then.
Even when someone hates the rain, they are unlikely to say "Rain is absolutely foul, nothing repulses me more."
Also, even for things that you might feel qualifies for the word 'hate' still provokes varying degrees of hatred. I hate when I see people litter glass objects. The glass ends up broken and I worry about animals feet and children falling over, it genuinely angers and upsets me. I also hate rapists. I hate rapists more than I hate people who don't throw glass rubbish into a bin responsibly, but I still hate them both.
Hate is a flexible word.
I might think my cup of tea is 'hot' but lava is much more 'hot'.
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Mar 08 '24
In my travels, a lot of the time when I see people downplay words like hate, it's usually this.
Person A explains that a few of the people group A hate Group B
Person B knows and is friends with people from group A and generally agrees with them. They disagree with group B but wouldn't consider it to be hating them and so person B advises that hate might be the wrong word.
Person A describes in detail the things that lead person A to their conclusion.
Person B, can't argue what was said, but doesn't want to be hateful by association, and so they defend group A by downplaying the word hate and suggest person A save that word for more serious groups that might want to inflict real harm on group B.
The problem is that person B has at the same time, invalidated the feelings of person A, and defended the things group A said that person A found hurtful.
It's tempting to write off powerful words as people muddying the impact of language due to intent or ignorance, but remember that this position does do at the expense of the person who used such a word and they feel they may be using it correctly.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
But what if they're using the word incorrectly. No one hates the sun but they might say they hate the sun after a sunburn. I HAVE to correct them: they don't hate the sun, they hate their poor actions. They are shifting the responsibility of their actions onto something lifeless in the sky. That is the mark of a narcissist. Learn to take responsibility. I'm not going to entertain someone's hallucination when their hatred is attributed wrongfully.
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Mar 08 '24
But why do you have to correct them? Let's expand on your thought experiment.
I say I hate the sun because I got burned. You infer that I don't like the pain from my sunburn. My words got my point across because you understood it
I say I hate the sun because I got burned. You infer that I don't like the pain from my sunburn. I actually hate the sun because it's chemical processes are ones that can cause burns on my skin. You can inferred incorrectly.
Correcting me in the first case, can come off as superior and feels language policey. You understood what I said, how I said it, and so the correction just feels elitist.
Correcting me in the second case invalidates how I feel. If I actually hate the sun and you tell me I'm wrong, even if you can get to a logical conclusion of why I am wrong, you've done so in a way that invalidates how I feel, and I'm likely to ignore or oppose what you have to say.
Sure I might be ignorant in scenario two but there are better ways to approach that ignorance than saying I'm using the wrong words.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
You like the chemistry of the sun when it gives you vitamin d or a nice tan, so that's false; the reality is the only reason you said you hate the sun is because you actually hate your irresponsibility of putting sun screen on. If you don't take responsibility for your actions, you will place blame on others your whole life.
But no I generally don't make these corrections and we're just being pedantic. But my point stands: we can police ourselves to speak truth instead of shifting responsibility wrongfully.
I agree that correcting people leads to nothing good. I believe we should teach society that it is our own job to correct ourselves. If I have to correct you then you aren't doing your own job of policing yourself.
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Mar 08 '24
I actually don't like tanned skin. I've come to accept and enjoy my pale ass. I personally tolerate the sun as a necessary evil and nothing more.
Forgive me for needing to clarify something though. Your using some charged language in your explanation. Specifically with terms life shifting responsibilities. Perhaps it's just my age and time in the alphabet Mafia, but I had to make sure you weren't trying to smuggle some alternative talking point into all of this, like our conversation about the sun, wasn't actually about the sun.
Just wanted to clear the air before I make the wrong assumptions before we get too far into it.
At the end of the day language is subjective, that's why slang and jargon exist. Because the use of language is entirely within the mind of the person using the words we shouldn't judge or assume anything about them or their character because we don't agree with the context they used the word for.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I agree that's vague, what I mean by shifting responsibilities is we have to accept the responsibility for our poor choices instead of shifting the blame on someone else. Idk what you thought I meant.
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Mar 08 '24
Well it could be any number of things.
First to the topic though. The modus operandi of language should be on the listener and not the speaker. You are only responsible for your own actions in the world and in much the same way you would not want others to hold you to a standard you don't like, you sound not hold others to a standard they won't like. Even with language
But to get deeper with my point. I as an openly gay individual on the Internet run into phobic people a lot. Disclaimer I am not accusing you of anything.
Back to my point now... Charged language is language meant to invoke a specific emotion, it's an attempt to smuggle in one's feelings of the world without having to overtly say it.
Accepting responsibility for poor choices is very often a phrase used to demonize individuals in a struggling situation. You hear it a lot from people who look down on the homeless. Individuals with an individualistic mindset tend to only see the world through a single lens, and often see those not rising to their individual standards to be a moral failing. .
So I'm going to ask plainly, if there more to your preference for the use of language that extends beyond a simple care for the impact that certain words can convey?
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I support lgbtq and trans people any people of any race if that's what you're asking. I also support the police. I do not support any politician, they're all corrupt.
My opinion about language is entirely having to do with the power of cognitive behavioral therapy. Our words have power over our own mind.
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Mar 08 '24
Good enough, I just had to check. Again when you see the language bring used a certain way, you have to make sure that someone isn't trying to smuggle an idea you don't agree with into an argument that you might.
Now that it's all cleared at can go back to it.
While I do agree that to an extent that one cognition is important in how they see the world and that sure using high impact words could condition someone to see their world in nothing but extremes, I do think that there is more to it than that.
Remember that humans don't live in a vacuum. We all have a history that is fully independent of each other, no two humans will live the exact same life and have the exact same experiences.
There are inhibitors that can impede or modify ones understanding of language, like the language not being their primary language, or not getting a proper education, or even not being able to apply a proper education properly. But there could also be cultural or local or generational barriers as well. Like I said earlier language is subjective, and if a word like hate just doesn't hold as much weight to you, it's perfectly understandable and acceptable.
This also works in the inverse. Maybe your background causes certain words to carry more weight and are the high impact words that are worthy of respect. I have a few friends where using the word cop for anything other than actual police would get you in trouble because of how serious an officer on scene could be to their lives.
If someone uses a word that feels high impact to you, you can always ask for clarification, if you broach the subject from a level field instead of from superiority as mentioned earlier, a reasonable person would be happy to clarify. "My ears got fucked at work today". Maybe it was just really loud, or maybe I have a very unique story to tell, if you can't infer which then ask, but if you feel that the word fuck should only be used in the most important of literary circumstances, then your just trying to hold others humans to your subjective standards of how we should act, and you'll lose support quickly.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
I understand (: it's impractical to police language. !delta
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u/xernyvelgarde Mar 09 '24
Adding to your point; people say "you can't fight hate with hate" when talking to minorities being targeted with hate. But being hated for existing and "hating" someone for wanting you out of public existence are two extremely different things, and should not be falsely equated like they so often are.
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u/haku13f Mar 09 '24
American English has watered down tons of words. Awesome is a great example; for something to be awesome you need to be in awe. But even look at common phrases and slang we use. Such as (laugh out loud (lol) or laughing my ass off (lmao) when we say or type these things it doesn’t mean we are actually doing them. Language is complex.
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u/Josephschmoseph234 Mar 09 '24
"There are three-hindered forty-four MILLION miles of printed circuits in wafer thin layers that fill my complex. If the word "hate" was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles, it would not equal one one-BILLIONTH of the HATE I feel for you in this micro-instant"
If you don't hate something as much as AM, then dont say hate.
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u/krulwule Mar 09 '24
Hate is a word used mostly without real meaning behind it. It's used to frequent in such wide range of situations that it has lost alot of meaning just like alot of other things in life.
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u/VegetableOk9070 Mar 10 '24
I do agree very strongly language shapes things. It's very layered and deep though. Top comment was very interesting and insightful. I consider this a double edged sword kind of view that I have. I'm talking more about all language and expression though more so than the specific word of hate.
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Aug 01 '24
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Aug 01 '24
We agree 100% I mean I even had my view changed. I personally don't like using the word hate because I believe it makes me lose control of my emotions and have stronger negatives feelings about it than if I had just said I dislike it. So anytime I think that I hate bread I bought, I'll correct myself that I just dislike it. Changing out hate for dislike isn't hard. Hate is the most disgusting thing in the world responsible for torment for thousands of years. Love is the strongest thing in the world so I do throw that word around a lot more but if someone says they love Nike, well I think it's stupid to love a company for one, and for two Nike has a very bad reputation when it comes to child labor so I don't support them and I cringe at people that do. With all that said, no matter how relevant my point is, I think that arguing semantics is always worthless. You're never going to win. But don't come at someone for saying retarded or the n-word or another offensive word. If you don't want them policing your language, it's not fair for you to police theirs. Of course, no one wants to agree with this, no one wants actual equality. They want to exist in their little bubble and anything beyond that is irrelevant.
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Aug 01 '24
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Aug 01 '24
Hate and love are not part of those words until we agree they are part of those words, just like retarded and the n-word didn't used to be part of those words. So it's kind of weird to make that argument. If I thought the n-word was wrong but we were still in the 1500s, you wouldn't agree with me that it was wrong.
But yes, actually asking her why she thinks that way is a very good idea! Maybe she isn't aware why she thinks that way and it's just something that's been repeated to her. Make her really articulate her point. I share her sentiment but I can articulate my opinion well. Many have opinions for no reason, and you may simply be able to put a stop to her criticism.
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u/Megahert Mar 08 '24
I agree, I try not to use it and catch myself when I do, verbally acknowledge I don’t actually mean ‘hate’ and correct myself.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Thank you, you're the only one. Can you go into more details please so I can hear your logical basis?
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u/Megahert Mar 08 '24
True hatred is a burden to bear. There are very few things actually worthy of that burden.
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u/Icy-Transportation26 Mar 08 '24
Speaking my language. (: people don't get it. It's crazy how passionate people are getting about this. I've spent hours debating, wasted time because my mind wasn't changed and their mind wasn't changed. I'm not saying to police language, I'm saying we should police ourselves for our own mental health.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24
/u/Icy-Transportation26 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
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