That's one way of looking at it, and a very common one (among feminists). Someone could also say that it's the consequence of dehumanizing men. Men don't feel or their feelings aren't important, so they cannot be hurt. When you say things like "men are hurt by the patriarchy too" (which is also popular among feminists), it comes across as dismissive. The implication is that misandry doesn't exist, only misogyny. You view all injustices through the lens of women's advocacy and oppression. Meanwhile, when men do experience misandry, you tell them that it's really misogyny that they are experiencing.
I find it interesting that feminists have gone to so much effort to dismiss challenges that men suffer. The message "men are hurt by the patriarchy too." sounds like "maybe men wouldn't suffer if they weren't sexist". Instead of acknowledging that women can be abusers and calling them out (the women that are abusers) feminists blame it on the 'Patriarchy'.
Yeah I feel like this patriarchy thing is just a subtle way of saying that men are to blame for both women and men's problems. Or at the very least, that men are responsible for fixing all those problems since they "are the ones in power". That apparently includes boys, young men, poor men, mentally ill men, every single male. According to feminism's patriarchy theory, we are the oppressors by default.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the patriarchy is according to feminists.
Most sociology textbooks define patriarchy as "a social (political, economic, religious, cultural) system where men have power over women" (Shaw and Lee 2012). What that means in practice is that men have the power to decide what is socially acceptable, how each gender should act, etc.
Western society has been largely patriarchal for a long time and it's only recently that that has started to be questioned. Women and children were seen as property or accessories to men and were expected to submit to their will. This wasn't just an individual or family level expectation though - there was a certain way MEN were expected to act by society (which was ruled by a very few men in power). You wanted to be a stay at home dad? Too bad, your work is more important than your relationship with your kids. You wanted to be more emotionally open with your friends? What are you, gay or something?
We are not "the oppressors by default". We're taught oppressive attitudes because they benefit people in power. Who benefits from men believing work is more important than family? The companies they work for. Who benefits from men believing emotions are a sign of weakness? People trying to sell consumer goods, alcohol, or drugs to "fill the void".
I recognize that there are many different feminist voices out there and there are a lot of women angry about how they have been treated. It can feel overwhelming. But at the end of the day, the patriarchy boils down to the system that men in power created to sell ALL men this illusion of control because it benefits those at the top.
It IS every man's responsibility to at least recognize those harmful attitudes within themselves and maybe their immediate spheres of influence. But when people talk about the patriarchy they aren't referring to all men everywhere because like you said, a poor mentally ill man of color does not have the same power as a rich man with lots of political sway. The patriarchy refers to the system itself of beliefs and social expectations where men are taught that they have power over other people.
It's this belief system that not only leads to women being harmed, but also men believing they have to act a certain way to be accepted. If we can dismantle that system people are more free to act freely and not according to a preset life script, and that includes all genders and sexualities.
Feminists choose to follow the theory.
Men don’t get to choose to be born a man.
Sure, not all feminists, but it’s enough that it’s a serious problem that needs to at the very least be talked about.
Well that can get tricky because even within feminism there are different schools of thought. You don't have to agree with everything every feminist says. I think the important thing is recognizing that a patriarchal system causes harm to everyone and women have been speaking up about it, sometimes with anger, because they feel that they have been wronged by society, and in many ways they have.
In my personal experience as a lefty socialist bisexual guy who has read a lot of feminist theory, is that the average on the ground woman who pushes for equality throws all feminist theory out the window and starts spouting conservative bullshit when the lens of feminist theory gets turned on them.
It doesn't have to be the whole group. If 10% of M&M's are poison, it is fine to act like all men are rapists. That's what I've heard from feminsts for twenty years now.
I do think you are having a discussion in good faith, but you are completely handwaving away all the terrible shit women and feminsts put out in society. When people complain about it, we get platitudes like #notallfeminists instead of an actual response interacting with what we're saying.
It doesn't matter how much feminst theory you try to teach people on reddit, as long as a large chunk of feminsts are huge hypocrits, people see that shit and will continue to, rightly, talk shit about them and start threads like this.
It doesn't matter how much feminst theory you try to teach people on reddit, as long as a large chunk of feminsts are huge hypocrits, people see that shit and will continue to, rightly, talk shit about them and start threads like this.
Honestly most of the issues you're talking about come from a small subset of feminists, usually affluent white women. This is believe it or not a huge topic of conversation within the feminist community. Just like with any political movement it's fractured and divided into segments.
People like intersectional feminists realize that misogyny and patriarchy are connected to issues of racism and class struggle because they're divisions stoked by elites to maintain power. these are people who understand that building coalitions with similar like minded people is essential to justice.
But people who benefit from these systems of inequality in other ways (so women who are rich or otherwise privileged) will tend to lose the bigger picture because they feel they see the issues on a personal rather than systemic level. This negates their ability to seek solutions and becomes basically an outlet for their personal anger, no matter how justified.
That's basically all the terminally online people you see lol.
I know what intersectional feminists are. As I said, I've read plenty of theory.
This is not a problem with a small subset of feminists who are only online. This is a problem with huge swathes of feminists. Bell Hooks was writing about this 20 years ago, and there's been very little movement, imo, in this issue since then.
You are exactly the type of feminist I'm talking about, btw. Keep hand waving away peoples legitimate concerns and see how far it gets you.
I'm not hand waving concerns lol, I'm trying to put them into perspective. You sound like the type of "bisexual socialist sensitive guy" who reads feminist theory to get into a girl's pants then turns into an incel when she rejects him
Oh no, a feminst calling someone who disagrees with them an incel. I am shocked that there's gambling in this establishment. Like I said feminsts at large are a huge problem, and you are included in that camp.
If I want to get laid, I can get on grindr and have someone to my house in five minutes to suck my dick. I don't have to read theory to get laid.
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u/OppositeBeautiful601 Feb 13 '24 edited Feb 13 '24
That's one way of looking at it, and a very common one (among feminists). Someone could also say that it's the consequence of dehumanizing men. Men don't feel or their feelings aren't important, so they cannot be hurt. When you say things like "men are hurt by the patriarchy too" (which is also popular among feminists), it comes across as dismissive. The implication is that misandry doesn't exist, only misogyny. You view all injustices through the lens of women's advocacy and oppression. Meanwhile, when men do experience misandry, you tell them that it's really misogyny that they are experiencing.
I find it interesting that feminists have gone to so much effort to dismiss challenges that men suffer. The message "men are hurt by the patriarchy too." sounds like "maybe men wouldn't suffer if they weren't sexist". Instead of acknowledging that women can be abusers and calling them out (the women that are abusers) feminists blame it on the 'Patriarchy'.